Clearing the Muddle that is Jesus

Stash.

If God promised that a Messiah will come before certain events take place, then those events come and go, then two thousand years pass and no Messiah came.

I, personally would think God had abandoned me.

Luckily, that is not the case.

Jesus is the promised Messiah.

I, personally would think God had abandoned me.

And there you have it. Just because you would personally feel that way doesn't mean everyone else would as well. Nor have to. You simply have to accept that your belief system works for you and doesn't work for others. And you should be ok with that. And you are certainly not allowed to demand that others share your belief system. Yours is between you and your god of choice and that's it. Period.

Quote from: disputeone on December 13, 2022, 04:30:45 AM

I, personally would think God had abandoned me.

And there you have it. Just because you would personally feel that way doesn't mean everyone else would as well. Nor have to. You simply have to accept that your belief system works for you and doesn't work for others. And you should be ok with that. And you are certainly not allowed to demand that others share your belief system. Yours is between you and your god of choice and that's it. Period.

Religion is anti freedom of thought, expression and speech. Adherents demand people submit to their thinking and believe that their mindset is the default that all others live with

Religion is anti freedom of thought, expression and speech. Adherents demand people submit to their thinking and believe that their mindset is the default that all others live with

Well, some are. Exclusivity traditions on unknowable topics are... weird.

God cured me.

Why did he make you ill in the first place?

Do you know what Stockholm Syndrome is?

Regards
DL

I made myself ill.
For 33 years I was lost.

God saved me.

I made myself ill.
For 33 years I was lost.

God saved me.

And that friends is why it's called the "opium of the masses".   

Then carry on lost and without meaning.
Its of no consequence to me. I feel nothing but peace now.

You are obviously too intelligent to submit to Gods plan, your plan is obviously much better.

not my jam anymore these days but i dont mind folks following the path

Quote from: disputeone on December 13, 2022, 03:53:06 PM

I made myself ill.
For 33 years I was lost.

God saved me.

And that friends is why it's called the "opium of the masses".   

Opiate! Opiate!!!

And this is a direct quote from Karl Marx, whose philosophy killed over 100 million people.

https://www.outono.net/elentir/2017/12/18/the-more-than-100-million-deaths-that-communism-caused-divided-by-countries/

This is more than 5000 times the entire number of people killed by guillotine in the French Revolution.

It seems to me that I would rather be put to sleep than to be so psychotic that I waste people for not wanting to share their property.

So what's wrong with religion being the opiate of the masses?

Quote from: Rayzor on December 13, 2022, 05:17:58 PM

Quote from: disputeone on December 13, 2022, 03:53:06 PM

I made myself ill.
For 33 years I was lost.

God saved me.

And that friends is why it's called the "opium of the masses".   

Opiate! Opiate!!!

And this is a direct quote from Karl Marx, whose philosophy killed over 100 million people.

https://www.outono.net/elentir/2017/12/18/the-more-than-100-million-deaths-that-communism-caused-divided-by-countries/

This is more than 5000 times the entire number of people killed by guillotine in the French Revolution.

It seems to me that I would rather be put to sleep than to be so psychotic that I waste people for not wanting to share their property.

So what's wrong with religion being the opiate of the masses?

And this is a direct quote from God, whose philosophy who killed over 750 million people.

"I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish. 18"

I made myself ill.
For 33 years I was lost.

God saved me.

What were you condemned of to create the need of saving?

Why did God give you a personality that would do such a vile thing?

That was not your doing. Right?

Regards
DL

And this is a direct quote from God.

"I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish. 18"

Based.

We also have it coming.

Quote from: Rayzor on December 13, 2022, 05:17:58 PM

Quote from: disputeone on December 13, 2022, 03:53:06 PM

I made myself ill.
For 33 years I was lost.

God saved me.

And that friends is why it's called the "opium of the masses".   

Opiate! Opiate!!!

And this is a direct quote from Karl Marx, whose philosophy killed over 100 million people.

https://www.outono.net/elentir/2017/12/18/the-more-than-100-million-deaths-that-communism-caused-divided-by-countries/

This is more than 5000 times the entire number of people killed by guillotine in the French Revolution.

It seems to me that I would rather be put to sleep than to be so psychotic that I waste people for not wanting to share their property.

So what's wrong with religion being the opiate of the masses?

Actually it's opium not opiate, but the meaning is unchanged.

The opium of the people (or opium of the masses) (German: Opium des Volkes) is a dictum used in reference to religion, derived from a frequently paraphrased statement of German sociologist and economic theorist Karl Marx: "Religion is the opium of the people." In context, the statement is part of Marx's structural-functionalist argument that religion was constructed by people to calm uncertainty over their role in the universe and in society.[1][2][3][4]

This statement was translated from the German original, "Die Religion ... ist das Opium des Volkes" and is often rendered as "religion…is the opiate of the masses." The full sentence from Marx translates (including italics) as: "Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people."[5]



Religion has been used for thousands of years to control populations and stop them thinking for themselves. 

Marxism has been used for hundreds of years to control populations and stop them thinking for themselves. 

Quote from: disputeone on December 13, 2022, 03:53:06 PM

I made myself ill.
For 33 years I was lost.

God saved me.

What were you condemned of to create the need of saving?

Why did God give you a personality that would do such a vile thing?

That was not your doing. Right?

Regards
DL

Are you a puppet?
Do you have strings?

Men, like Angels, have free will and are free to choose a path of rebellion and destruction.

God really does only want what's best for us. Letting us carry on as we are is not best for us.

Perhaps it would be better if the earth was flooded again, however. God never breaks his promises.

Marxism has been used for hundreds of years to control populations and stop them thinking for themselves. 

Quote from: Gnostic Christian Bishop on December 14, 2022, 10:10:24 AM

Quote from: disputeone on December 13, 2022, 03:53:06 PM

I made myself ill.
For 33 years I was lost.

God saved me.

What were you condemned of to create the need of saving?

Why did God give you a personality that would do such a vile thing?

That was not your doing. Right?

Regards
DL

Are you a puppet?
Do you have strings?

Men, like Angels, have free will and are free to choose a path of rebellion and destruction.

God really does only want what's best for us. Letting us carry on as we are is not best for us.

Perhaps it would be better if the earth was flooded again, however. God never breaks his promises.

It is demonstrable that nature creates for the best possible end of all life.

Your Yahweh piece of genocidal garbage has shown how inferior he is even to nature.

There are more than one Jesus in the bible.

You have a choice between the genocidal Armageddon bringer or the other Gnostic Christian Jesus who said he comes to cure and not kill.

One is good and the other evil.

Do you have what it takes for an honest verdict?

Regards
DL

How can the Creator of what we call nature be below it?

I worship the Creator of all things.

Jesus did come to heal us, really, read the Bible there is only one God and one Messiah.

How can the Creator of what we call nature be below it?

What if there is no creator?  Just stunningly beautiful simple natural laws. 

Why does beauty exist?

I can tell you.
Can you tell me?

Why does beauty exist?

I can tell you.
Can you tell me?

Let me guess, is it because God made it so?

Why do you think beauty exists?
Give it your best guess.

After you think of an answer I'll tell you.

It doesnt exist.
Except beholdered in your eye.

Incorrect.


Beauty very much exists.

We've known this for thousands and thousands of years. It's only very recently that people have begun to claim that beauty doesn't exist.

From ancient China.

All in the world know the beauty of the beautiful, and in doing this they have (the idea of) what ugliness is

Beauty exists.
You should be wary of anyone who tells you beauty doesn't exist kabool.

Beautiful things are beautiful.

Why do you think beauty exists?
Give it your best guess.

After you think of an answer I'll tell you.

Hmm, I'm gonna say that the pagan gods who designed humanity (hellenic pantheon, norse pantheon, roman pantheon, celtic pantheon etc etc) enjoyed acts of devotion/devotional offerings (music, art, dance, literature etc) and thus gave humanity their concept of beauty in order to enable us to make them, and encourage us to want to make them.
Any objections? 

(also, for the record, if you want this argument to be better, a cloudy day isn't the best pick for 'proof of beauty.' Okay, going to be controversial on an FE forum, but I'd suggest nebulae or deep sea views, things that humans would never normally come in contact with and yet we have a reaction to. In all seriousness, those are the ones where the explanations become trickier. vs 'Why would humans have a positive reaction to a clear, safe open space?' and 'Why would humans feel at peace at sunset when they need to sleep?' etc are pretty easy questions)

Clouds are beautiful.
There has never been a human artist that could paint such a scene.

I don't think that claiming that beauty exists because God exists is disagreeing with me.

You're free to worship whatever gods you like. But we agree.

God made beautiful things beautiful, to be beautiful, for the purpose of being beautiful, because it pleases Him that they are beautiful.

Pagan gods are very limited in their power if they have any power at all and you need to remember which god you need to pray to depending on what you're praying for at the time.

I worship the Creator of all things and I only pray for one thing.

People like pagan gods because they can place themselves above their gods and have their gods serve their own will.

In that regard you are not worshiping pagan gods but worshiping the desires of your own heart.

I am Gods servant and defer to His will.

I don't think that claiming that beauty exists because God exists is disagreeing with me.

I mean, capital G vs lower case g are very different things. I'll always say, I'm agnostic, but the biggest issue with a lot of major religions is invoking omnis- and inerrancy that just don't seem to match reality.
Okay, the point was flippantly put, I'll admit to, but the actual philosophy of this issue is fascinating - monotheism always sucks up all the air in the room, but if you want to have the beauty discussion, it seems to me that the polytheists have a better explanation. Beauty is explicitly part of their relationship with the gods, it's explained and justified with respect to purpose and goal. Meanwhile yours enjoys beauty - okay, fair enough - and instilled it in the universe and the people... just because. It's not part of religious practice, it's not devotional - and indeed monotheistic religions typically frown heavily on many devotional acts seeing them as little more than idolatry - in which case, well yes, your explanation seems significantly less persuasive.

There is no good thing that God doesn't appreciate. Music, art, dance, literature were all made good by his hands. He also invented humour, obviously.

My point stands about the pagan gods.

God can set water on fire as he made fire and water and wood and stone and dust.

https://biblehub.com/1_kings/18-38.htm

People like pagan gods because they can place themselves above their gods and have their gods serve their own will.

...Have you ever, like, actually talked to a polytheist? Like, you get some reactionaries adjusting from Christianity that try to claim to be equals, but most I know very much claim to be subservient. (Honestly most Christian notions of piety and belief got nicked from Plato and Aristotle and other Greek and polytheistic philosophers anyway)
Claiming to be above gods is just. I'm not going to say it never happens, statistically it probably does, but in general no, nope, nuh-uh. At least no more than Christian prayer is perceived as ordering God to do something

My point stands about the pagan gods.

God can set water on fire as he made fire and water and wood and stone and dust.

Mm. It'd be churlish to bring up the problem of evil here huh?

It wouldn't be expedient, to assume I haven't read philosophy.

Aristotle and especially Plato came close in parts to perfect truth, they did. However they also made some glaringly silly errors in judgement.

Philosophers were able to come close to the truth because objective truth exists, because God exists and God is perfect truth.

Again I only ever pray for one thing.

Mm. It'd be churlish to bring up the problem of evil here huh?

God allows evil, that is to say free will, because a choice has to exist. We need to be free to choose and choose correctly or we cannot be Gods servants much less Gods friends.