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Does Papa Legba understand newtons third law?

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Newtons third law

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sceptimatic

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #630 on: June 14, 2016, 10:27:52 AM »
Quote from: Kami on June 14, 2016, 09:31:38 AM
Quote from: sceptimatic on June 14, 2016, 09:04:37 AM
Quote from: sokarul on June 14, 2016, 08:46:35 AM
Does a child on a swing push off the air?
A child on a swing will use feet to push the swing and him/her self against the air. Once in motion, it's down to the movement of the body to compress air faster than the swing is moving. This is achieved by arching the back and kicking the legs whilst using the chain/rope of the swing as leverage.
I call bullshit on this one.
Theother one is wrong too, but this has been elaborated many, many times.
Tell me why you call bullshit on it?
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markjo

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #631 on: June 14, 2016, 10:30:03 AM »
Quote from: Papa Legba on June 14, 2016, 07:50:14 AM
Anyhoo, if every physics teacher in the world thinks I don't understand N3, how come I'm reading an article by one right now that describes NASA's interpretation of N3 as 'wrong'?
My guess is that you're lying about the article, but since you obviously won't share a link to that article, I guess we'll never know for sure.
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Kami

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #632 on: June 14, 2016, 10:46:31 AM »
Imagine a child on a swing. It moves its body only on the highest point of the swing, about a distance of 0.5m, approximately. Then it swings a distance of about 3m through the air and is subject to friction (or compresses the air in front of him, whichever you prefer). If the movement of the child would be because of the compression of air, it would not be able to sustain its motion, yet it can.
The movement on the swing happens because on the highest points of the swing you alter your center of mass to be behind the swing (in other words, you shift your center of mass outwards), thus creating angular momentum.
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sceptimatic

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #633 on: June 14, 2016, 11:02:34 AM »
Quote from: Kami on June 14, 2016, 10:46:31 AM
Imagine a child on a swing. It moves its body only on the highest point of the swing, about a distance of 0.5m, approximately. Then it swings a distance of about 3m through the air and is subject to friction (or compresses the air in front of him, whichever you prefer). If the movement of the child would be because of the compression of air, it would not be able to sustain its motion, yet it can.
The movement on the swing happens because on the highest points of the swing you alter your center of mass to be behind the swing (in other words, you shift your center of mass outwards), thus creating angular momentum.
Picture the child on a swing  under water. Now picture  the child using the bottom of the pool to push back on that swing off the tiled floor.
What's happened?
The child has pushed the water away from him/her and has stacked it up a little behind him/her. That higher pressure created by the push has created a lower pressure to the front of the child, but now the water that was pushed away, is now pushing back to equalise the pressure, which in turn pushed the child forward.
This will continue to happen each way in smaller pushes if the child doesn't use his/her body to keep the momentum up.
To keep the momentum, the child would be kicking the water away and "up" whilst the childs back would be pushing the water "down"...
By doing this see saw act, it creates a wave motion each way, which keeps the child swinging.
It's purely displacing the water, just like displacing air. The only difference is density and resistance to it and how much it's overcome by energy applied..
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Kami

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #634 on: June 14, 2016, 11:46:12 AM »
That is strange, because when I move forward on a swing, i feel the Wind blowing in my face (not in my back, creating your wave-like Push).
Also, next time you go ice-skating (very small friction), try to create such a wave-like Push by the air. I bet you will not be able to do so.

If you want to know how a swing works, Google is your friend, there are very detailed explanations out there.
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sceptimatic

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #635 on: June 14, 2016, 11:59:44 AM »
Quote from: Kami on June 14, 2016, 11:46:12 AM
That is strange, because when I move forward on a swing, i feel the Wind blowing in my face (not in my back, creating your wave-like Push).
Also, next time you go ice-skating (very small friction), try to create such a wave-like Push by the air. I bet you will not be able to do so.

If you want to know how a swing works, Google is your friend, there are very detailed explanations out there.
Your trouble is, you will not give the atmosphere the credit because it kills off what you've been told about a lot of stuff.
The sooner you realise that you're only alive and moving because of it, the sooner you'll realise that everything that moves, no matter which way or what way, is down to 2 things that happen with the atmosphere. High and low pressures.
The only thing that can create these high and low pressures is the energy we all use and every living thing uses, as well as mechanical.
The only possible way that energy can be used is to have an atmosphere to start with.

Understand the reality and you'll soon realise how much you've been duped by parroting tutors, all your life.
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Pezevenk

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #636 on: June 14, 2016, 12:01:59 PM »
Quote from: sceptimatic on June 14, 2016, 08:22:53 AM
Quote from: aisantaros on June 14, 2016, 08:07:37 AM

So when you are on a skateboard and push against the wall you move away by displacing air ? :D
Yep, you move away by displacing air. The reason you can't grasp that is because you're not thinking on the right lines.

Here's a tip. Arms bent and energy applied to the wall, requires a displacement of air, just for that to happen. Once that has happened, then all of the mass has been pushed against the atmosphere, compressing it and causing it to come back around the mass to create equal and opposite reaction to action.

Quote from: aisantaros on June 14, 2016, 08:07:37 AM
you know you can push against a mass whether it is fixed or not, you could push against a medicine ball when you throw it.
Yep but the only way you can push against a medicine ball and receive a reactionary force back from it, is either when that medicine ball is under atmospheric clamping on the ground which creates a friction on that ground as well as against atmosphere, or your own energy holds that mass of medicine ball, up. You have displaced the amount of atmosphere that the medicine ball repels from its mass and that's  the pressure of atmosphere bearing down onto your ball that you have to resist with your energy.

By throwing this medicine ball horizontally, you will have to move it from one filled atmospheric place to another, then another and another, depending on how much energy you put into the throw. All that atmosphere reacts against your ball until you release it - or to put it simpler - when your energy of push does not count anymore.

So from what you said, I assume that Newton's third law does not work underwater, and that heavier objects displace more atmosphere regardless of their shape. Ok.
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JoshPerplexed

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #637 on: June 14, 2016, 12:11:20 PM »
Quote from: sceptimatic on June 14, 2016, 11:02:34 AM
Quote from: Kami on June 14, 2016, 10:46:31 AM
Imagine a child on a swing. It moves its body only on the highest point of the swing, about a distance of 0.5m, approximately. Then it swings a distance of about 3m through the air and is subject to friction (or compresses the air in front of him, whichever you prefer). If the movement of the child would be because of the compression of air, it would not be able to sustain its motion, yet it can.
The movement on the swing happens because on the highest points of the swing you alter your center of mass to be behind the swing (in other words, you shift your center of mass outwards), thus creating angular momentum.
Picture the child on a swing  under water. Now picture  the child using the bottom of the pool to push back on that swing off the tiled floor.
What's happened?
The child has pushed the water away from him/her and has stacked it up a little behind him/her. That higher pressure created by the push has created a lower pressure to the front of the child, but now the water that was pushed away, is now pushing back to equalise the pressure, which in turn pushed the child forward.
This will continue to happen each way in smaller pushes if the child doesn't use his/her body to keep the momentum up.
To keep the momentum, the child would be kicking the water away and "up" whilst the childs back would be pushing the water "down"...
By doing this see saw act, it creates a wave motion each way, which keeps the child swinging.
It's purely displacing the water, just like displacing air. The only difference is density and resistance to it and how much it's overcome by energy applied..

Oh okay, sorry, I didn't know we were making up physics as we went along... That's my bad..

But seriously, that's not how anything works. The air doesn't compress enough to push a butterfly forward, let alone a child on a swing! If it were that easy to compress air, I don't think we'd need air compressors...

You can easily show your explanation is false by putting an electric fan below the swing that pushes the "compressed air" away from the child. If you were correct, then the child shouldn't be able to continue swinging. I think we both know that won't happen.

But, I guess now you will try desperately to make up so more physics to make your model work...
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sceptimatic

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #638 on: June 14, 2016, 12:26:40 PM »
Quote from: Definitely Not Official on June 14, 2016, 12:01:59 PM
Quote from: sceptimatic on June 14, 2016, 08:22:53 AM
Quote from: aisantaros on June 14, 2016, 08:07:37 AM

So when you are on a skateboard and push against the wall you move away by displacing air ? :D
Yep, you move away by displacing air. The reason you can't grasp that is because you're not thinking on the right lines.

Here's a tip. Arms bent and energy applied to the wall, requires a displacement of air, just for that to happen. Once that has happened, then all of the mass has been pushed against the atmosphere, compressing it and causing it to come back around the mass to create equal and opposite reaction to action.

Quote from: aisantaros on June 14, 2016, 08:07:37 AM
you know you can push against a mass whether it is fixed or not, you could push against a medicine ball when you throw it.
Yep but the only way you can push against a medicine ball and receive a reactionary force back from it, is either when that medicine ball is under atmospheric clamping on the ground which creates a friction on that ground as well as against atmosphere, or your own energy holds that mass of medicine ball, up. You have displaced the amount of atmosphere that the medicine ball repels from its mass and that's  the pressure of atmosphere bearing down onto your ball that you have to resist with your energy.

By throwing this medicine ball horizontally, you will have to move it from one filled atmospheric place to another, then another and another, depending on how much energy you put into the throw. All that atmosphere reacts against your ball until you release it - or to put it simpler - when your energy of push does not count anymore.

So from what you said, I assume that Newton's third law does not work underwater, and that heavier objects displace more atmosphere regardless of their shape. Ok.
Heavier objects are only heavier to us solely because they displace more atmosphere. The more atmosphere that is pushed into by whatever object, the more that object will weigh on a man made scale.
It's about the density of the object against the atmosphere. Basically repelling it rather than absorbing it.
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JoshPerplexed

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #639 on: June 14, 2016, 12:36:51 PM »
Quote from: sceptimatic on June 14, 2016, 12:26:40 PM
Quote from: Definitely Not Official on June 14, 2016, 12:01:59 PM
Quote from: sceptimatic on June 14, 2016, 08:22:53 AM
Quote from: aisantaros on June 14, 2016, 08:07:37 AM

So when you are on a skateboard and push against the wall you move away by displacing air ? :D
Yep, you move away by displacing air. The reason you can't grasp that is because you're not thinking on the right lines.

Here's a tip. Arms bent and energy applied to the wall, requires a displacement of air, just for that to happen. Once that has happened, then all of the mass has been pushed against the atmosphere, compressing it and causing it to come back around the mass to create equal and opposite reaction to action.

Quote from: aisantaros on June 14, 2016, 08:07:37 AM
you know you can push against a mass whether it is fixed or not, you could push against a medicine ball when you throw it.
Yep but the only way you can push against a medicine ball and receive a reactionary force back from it, is either when that medicine ball is under atmospheric clamping on the ground which creates a friction on that ground as well as against atmosphere, or your own energy holds that mass of medicine ball, up. You have displaced the amount of atmosphere that the medicine ball repels from its mass and that's  the pressure of atmosphere bearing down onto your ball that you have to resist with your energy.

By throwing this medicine ball horizontally, you will have to move it from one filled atmospheric place to another, then another and another, depending on how much energy you put into the throw. All that atmosphere reacts against your ball until you release it - or to put it simpler - when your energy of push does not count anymore.

So from what you said, I assume that Newton's third law does not work underwater, and that heavier objects displace more atmosphere regardless of their shape. Ok.
Heavier objects are only heavier to us solely because they displace more atmosphere. The more atmosphere that is pushed into by whatever object, the more that object will weigh on a man made scale.
It's about the density of the object against the atmosphere. Basically repelling it rather than absorbing it.

So if we put someone in a vacuum chamber and pumped out half the air, that person would then weigh about half their "normal" weight?
If we pumped in some air, say doubled it, that person would then weigh about twice as much?
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sceptimatic

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #640 on: June 14, 2016, 12:37:06 PM »
Quote from: JoshPerplexed on June 14, 2016, 12:11:20 PM
Oh okay, sorry, I didn't know we were making up physics as we went along... That's my bad..
When you don't want to ggrasp something, it wiill never be grasped. I can't help you on that score. You'll just have to  see if time and patience makes you actually go into detective mode.
Quote from: JoshPerplexed on June 14, 2016, 12:11:20 PM
But seriously, that's not how anything works. The air doesn't compress enough to push a butterfly forward, let alone a child on a swing! If it were that easy to compress air, I don't think we'd need air compressors...
Air will only compress enough or be pushed aside/up or whichever way by whatever energy is applied to it. A butterfly flies by flapping its wings. It doesn't need to push too hard because it doesn't have much mass to stay aloft.
If you could flap your arms fast enough whilst holding two flat boards, then you could raise yourself into the air. The issue is, you would need to displace a lot of air very quickly to stay aloft.
Just like a helicopter rotates its blades faster and faster to gain height.
Quote from: JoshPerplexed on June 14, 2016, 12:11:20 PM
You can easily show your explanation is false by putting an electric fan below the swing that pushes the "compressed air" away from the child. If you were correct, then the child shouldn't be able to continue swinging. I think we both know that won't happen.
have you ever tried to walk against the wind?
Have you ever tried to run with the wind?
Think about what you're saying.
Quote from: JoshPerplexed on June 14, 2016, 12:11:20 PM
But, I guess now you will try desperately to make up so more physics to make your model work...
I don't need to make them up. It's all there staring you in the face, literally.
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sceptimatic

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #641 on: June 14, 2016, 12:39:22 PM »
Quote from: JoshPerplexed on June 14, 2016, 12:36:51 PM
Quote from: sceptimatic on June 14, 2016, 12:26:40 PM
Quote from: Definitely Not Official on June 14, 2016, 12:01:59 PM
Quote from: sceptimatic on June 14, 2016, 08:22:53 AM
Quote from: aisantaros on June 14, 2016, 08:07:37 AM

So when you are on a skateboard and push against the wall you move away by displacing air ? :D
Yep, you move away by displacing air. The reason you can't grasp that is because you're not thinking on the right lines.

Here's a tip. Arms bent and energy applied to the wall, requires a displacement of air, just for that to happen. Once that has happened, then all of the mass has been pushed against the atmosphere, compressing it and causing it to come back around the mass to create equal and opposite reaction to action.

Quote from: aisantaros on June 14, 2016, 08:07:37 AM
you know you can push against a mass whether it is fixed or not, you could push against a medicine ball when you throw it.
Yep but the only way you can push against a medicine ball and receive a reactionary force back from it, is either when that medicine ball is under atmospheric clamping on the ground which creates a friction on that ground as well as against atmosphere, or your own energy holds that mass of medicine ball, up. You have displaced the amount of atmosphere that the medicine ball repels from its mass and that's  the pressure of atmosphere bearing down onto your ball that you have to resist with your energy.

By throwing this medicine ball horizontally, you will have to move it from one filled atmospheric place to another, then another and another, depending on how much energy you put into the throw. All that atmosphere reacts against your ball until you release it - or to put it simpler - when your energy of push does not count anymore.

So from what you said, I assume that Newton's third law does not work underwater, and that heavier objects displace more atmosphere regardless of their shape. Ok.
Heavier objects are only heavier to us solely because they displace more atmosphere. The more atmosphere that is pushed into by whatever object, the more that object will weigh on a man made scale.
It's about the density of the object against the atmosphere. Basically repelling it rather than absorbing it.

So if we put someone in a vacuum chamber and pumped out half the air, that person would then weigh about half their "normal" weight?
If we pumped in some air, say doubled it, that person would then weigh about twice as much?
Yes if done properly.


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JoshPerplexed

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #642 on: June 14, 2016, 01:12:31 PM »
Quote from: sceptimatic on June 14, 2016, 12:37:06 PM
Quote from: JoshPerplexed on June 14, 2016, 12:11:20 PM
Oh okay, sorry, I didn't know we were making up physics as we went along... That's my bad..
When you don't want to ggrasp something, it wiill never be grasped. I can't help you on that score. You'll just have to  see if time and patience makes you actually go into detective mode.
Detective mode, huh? I think I'm starting to understand your problem...

Quote
Quote from: JoshPerplexed on June 14, 2016, 12:11:20 PM
But seriously, that's not how anything works. The air doesn't compress enough to push a butterfly forward, let alone a child on a swing! If it were that easy to compress air, I don't think we'd need air compressors...
Air will only compress enough or be pushed aside/up or whichever way by whatever energy is applied to it. A butterfly flies by flapping its wings. It doesn't need to push too hard because it doesn't have much mass to stay aloft.
If you could flap your arms fast enough whilst holding two flat boards, then you could raise yourself into the air. The issue is, you would need to displace a lot of air very quickly to stay aloft.
Just like a helicopter rotates its blades faster and faster to gain height.
You don't actually know how helicopters work, do you?

Quote
Quote from: JoshPerplexed on June 14, 2016, 12:11:20 PM
You can easily show your explanation is false by putting an electric fan below the swing that pushes the "compressed air" away from the child. If you were correct, then the child shouldn't be able to continue swinging. I think we both know that won't happen.
have you ever tried to walk against the wind?
Have you ever tried to run with the wind?
Think about what you're saying.
Apparently, you need to think about what I'm saying... Wind is completely irrelevant!
Fans push air.
Have fan push "compressed air" away form child (without blowing on the child!)
No more "compressed air" to push child forward on swing
Child will continue swinging because your hypothesis is stupid

Quote
Quote from: JoshPerplexed on June 14, 2016, 12:11:20 PM
But, I guess now you will try desperately to make up so more physics to make your model work...
I don't need to make them up. It's all there staring you in the face, literally.
Yep, your stupidity is glaring!
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Papa Legba

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #643 on: June 14, 2016, 01:15:19 PM »
Oh, look; Newton's 3rd Law!

It proves rockets don't work in a vacuum if you actually understand it!

Newton's Third Law

Identifying Action and Reaction Force Pairs

A force is a push or a pull that acts upon an object as a results of its interaction with another object. Forces result from interactions!

Examples of Interaction Force Pairs
A variety of action-reaction force pairs are evident in nature. Consider the propulsion of a fish through the water. A fish uses its fins to push water backwards. But a push on the water will only serve to accelerate the water. Since forces result from mutual interactions, the water must also be pushing the fish forwards, propelling the fish through the water. The size of the force on the water equals the size of the force on the fish; the direction of the force on the water (backwards) is opposite the direction of the force on the fish (forwards). For every action, there is an equal (in size) and opposite (in direction) reaction force. Action-reaction force pairs make it possible for fish to swim.

Consider the flying motion of birds. A bird flies by use of its wings. The wings of a bird push air downwards. Since forces result from mutual interactions, the air must also be pushing the bird upwards. The size of the force on the air equals the size of the force on the bird; the direction of the force on the air (downwards) is opposite the direction of the force on the bird (upwards). For every action, there is an equal (in size) and opposite (in direction) reaction. Action-reaction force pairs make it possible for birds to fly.

Consider the motion of a car on the way to school. A car is equipped with wheels that spin. As the wheels spin, they grip the road and push the road backwards. Since forces result from mutual interactions, the road must also be pushing the wheels forward. The size of the force on the road equals the size of the force on the wheels (or car); the direction of the force on the road (backwards) is opposite the direction of the force on the wheels (forwards). For every action, there is an equal (in size) and opposite (in direction) reaction. Action-reaction force pairs make it possible for cars to move along a roadway surface.

Toodle-pip, time-wasting Losers!
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JoshPerplexed

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #644 on: June 14, 2016, 01:19:50 PM »
Quote from: sceptimatic on June 14, 2016, 12:39:22 PM
Quote from: JoshPerplexed on June 14, 2016, 12:36:51 PM
Quote from: sceptimatic on June 14, 2016, 12:26:40 PM
Quote from: Definitely Not Official on June 14, 2016, 12:01:59 PM
Quote from: sceptimatic on June 14, 2016, 08:22:53 AM
Quote from: aisantaros on June 14, 2016, 08:07:37 AM

So when you are on a skateboard and push against the wall you move away by displacing air ? :D
Yep, you move away by displacing air. The reason you can't grasp that is because you're not thinking on the right lines.

Here's a tip. Arms bent and energy applied to the wall, requires a displacement of air, just for that to happen. Once that has happened, then all of the mass has been pushed against the atmosphere, compressing it and causing it to come back around the mass to create equal and opposite reaction to action.

Quote from: aisantaros on June 14, 2016, 08:07:37 AM
you know you can push against a mass whether it is fixed or not, you could push against a medicine ball when you throw it.
Yep but the only way you can push against a medicine ball and receive a reactionary force back from it, is either when that medicine ball is under atmospheric clamping on the ground which creates a friction on that ground as well as against atmosphere, or your own energy holds that mass of medicine ball, up. You have displaced the amount of atmosphere that the medicine ball repels from its mass and that's  the pressure of atmosphere bearing down onto your ball that you have to resist with your energy.

By throwing this medicine ball horizontally, you will have to move it from one filled atmospheric place to another, then another and another, depending on how much energy you put into the throw. All that atmosphere reacts against your ball until you release it - or to put it simpler - when your energy of push does not count anymore.

So from what you said, I assume that Newton's third law does not work underwater, and that heavier objects displace more atmosphere regardless of their shape. Ok.
Heavier objects are only heavier to us solely because they displace more atmosphere. The more atmosphere that is pushed into by whatever object, the more that object will weigh on a man made scale.
It's about the density of the object against the atmosphere. Basically repelling it rather than absorbing it.

So if we put someone in a vacuum chamber and pumped out half the air, that person would then weigh about half their "normal" weight?
If we pumped in some air, say doubled it, that person would then weigh about twice as much?
Yes if done properly.

Okay, you are officially too ignorant or stupid to continue talking to.... It's hard to believe that people can continue to be so uneducated about such things with modern technology... If you ever post such nonsense in a science forum, please let me know, so I can cook up a bag of popcorn!
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sceptimatic

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #645 on: June 14, 2016, 01:41:00 PM »
Quote from: JoshPerplexed on June 14, 2016, 01:19:50 PM
Quote from: sceptimatic on June 14, 2016, 12:39:22 PM
Quote from: JoshPerplexed on June 14, 2016, 12:36:51 PM
Quote from: sceptimatic on June 14, 2016, 12:26:40 PM
Quote from: Definitely Not Official on June 14, 2016, 12:01:59 PM
Quote from: sceptimatic on June 14, 2016, 08:22:53 AM
Quote from: aisantaros on June 14, 2016, 08:07:37 AM

So when you are on a skateboard and push against the wall you move away by displacing air ? :D
Yep, you move away by displacing air. The reason you can't grasp that is because you're not thinking on the right lines.

Here's a tip. Arms bent and energy applied to the wall, requires a displacement of air, just for that to happen. Once that has happened, then all of the mass has been pushed against the atmosphere, compressing it and causing it to come back around the mass to create equal and opposite reaction to action.

Quote from: aisantaros on June 14, 2016, 08:07:37 AM
you know you can push against a mass whether it is fixed or not, you could push against a medicine ball when you throw it.
Yep but the only way you can push against a medicine ball and receive a reactionary force back from it, is either when that medicine ball is under atmospheric clamping on the ground which creates a friction on that ground as well as against atmosphere, or your own energy holds that mass of medicine ball, up. You have displaced the amount of atmosphere that the medicine ball repels from its mass and that's  the pressure of atmosphere bearing down onto your ball that you have to resist with your energy.

By throwing this medicine ball horizontally, you will have to move it from one filled atmospheric place to another, then another and another, depending on how much energy you put into the throw. All that atmosphere reacts against your ball until you release it - or to put it simpler - when your energy of push does not count anymore.

So from what you said, I assume that Newton's third law does not work underwater, and that heavier objects displace more atmosphere regardless of their shape. Ok.
Heavier objects are only heavier to us solely because they displace more atmosphere. The more atmosphere that is pushed into by whatever object, the more that object will weigh on a man made scale.
It's about the density of the object against the atmosphere. Basically repelling it rather than absorbing it.

So if we put someone in a vacuum chamber and pumped out half the air, that person would then weigh about half their "normal" weight?
If we pumped in some air, say doubled it, that person would then weigh about twice as much?
Yes if done properly.

Okay, you are officially too ignorant or stupid to continue talking to.... It's hard to believe that people can continue to be so uneducated about such things with modern technology... If you ever post such nonsense in a science forum, please let me know, so I can cook up a bag of popcorn!
Ok let's have one last try with you, just for the hell of it.

Imagine if you were stood inside a giant bicycle pump with the screw hole sealed off and stood on scales over that sealed off screw hole. You weigh, say, 180 lbs in normal atmospheric conditions. A big hand then starts to push down on the plunger.
Question: does your weight increase on that scale plate or does it stay the same?
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frenat

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #646 on: June 14, 2016, 01:57:22 PM »
Quote from: sceptimatic on June 14, 2016, 12:39:22 PM
Quote from: JoshPerplexed on June 14, 2016, 12:36:51 PM
Quote from: sceptimatic on June 14, 2016, 12:26:40 PM
Quote from: Definitely Not Official on June 14, 2016, 12:01:59 PM
Quote from: sceptimatic on June 14, 2016, 08:22:53 AM
Quote from: aisantaros on June 14, 2016, 08:07:37 AM

So when you are on a skateboard and push against the wall you move away by displacing air ? :D
Yep, you move away by displacing air. The reason you can't grasp that is because you're not thinking on the right lines.

Here's a tip. Arms bent and energy applied to the wall, requires a displacement of air, just for that to happen. Once that has happened, then all of the mass has been pushed against the atmosphere, compressing it and causing it to come back around the mass to create equal and opposite reaction to action.

Quote from: aisantaros on June 14, 2016, 08:07:37 AM
you know you can push against a mass whether it is fixed or not, you could push against a medicine ball when you throw it.
Yep but the only way you can push against a medicine ball and receive a reactionary force back from it, is either when that medicine ball is under atmospheric clamping on the ground which creates a friction on that ground as well as against atmosphere, or your own energy holds that mass of medicine ball, up. You have displaced the amount of atmosphere that the medicine ball repels from its mass and that's  the pressure of atmosphere bearing down onto your ball that you have to resist with your energy.

By throwing this medicine ball horizontally, you will have to move it from one filled atmospheric place to another, then another and another, depending on how much energy you put into the throw. All that atmosphere reacts against your ball until you release it - or to put it simpler - when your energy of push does not count anymore.

So from what you said, I assume that Newton's third law does not work underwater, and that heavier objects displace more atmosphere regardless of their shape. Ok.
Heavier objects are only heavier to us solely because they displace more atmosphere. The more atmosphere that is pushed into by whatever object, the more that object will weigh on a man made scale.
It's about the density of the object against the atmosphere. Basically repelling it rather than absorbing it.

So if we put someone in a vacuum chamber and pumped out half the air, that person would then weigh about half their "normal" weight?
If we pumped in some air, say doubled it, that person would then weigh about twice as much?
Yes if done properly.
wrong.  I've been in an altitude chamber depressurized to 30,000 feet.  If what you were saying were true then I should have weighed about 1/3 normal.  I did not and neither did anything else.
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Bullwinkle

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #647 on: June 14, 2016, 01:58:24 PM »
Quote from: sceptimatic on June 14, 2016, 12:26:40 PM
Heavier objects are only heavier to us solely because they displace more atmosphere.


So, one cubic meter of lead is heavier than one cubic meter of styrofoam
because they each displace the exact same amount of atmosphere?

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nexzus

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #648 on: June 14, 2016, 02:32:31 PM »
Quote from: Bullwinkle on June 14, 2016, 01:58:24 PM
Quote from: sceptimatic on June 14, 2016, 12:26:40 PM
Heavier objects are only heavier to us solely because they displace more atmosphere.


So, one cubic meter of lead is heavier than one cubic meter of styrofoam
because they each displace the exact same amount of atmosphere?

He'll say something about the porousness of the Styrofoam.

His model is based on surface area or something, along with its porousness. In his model, a 10cmx10x10 cube of lead would "weigh" more than a 12.4 cm diameter sphere of lead (both volume of 1000 cm3) because the cube has a surface area of 600 cm2 vs. the 483.05 of the sphere.

You can't do this experiment in an actual air-evacuated chamber because you have to zero out the scale or something, ie place a brick on a scale in a vacuum chamber and suck out all the air. Zero out the scale, place the brick on it again or something. But then your act of putting the brick on the scale adds energy to it or something.

It's pretty stupid.
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Kami

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #649 on: June 14, 2016, 02:58:14 PM »
It is pretty symbolic that a flat earther uses logic which a child on a swing can disprove.

Honestly, I performed some (very simple) experiments in a vacuum chamber, including a block of irgon dangling from a spring. The weight did not change noticeably. This is some advanced bullshit right here...
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JoshPerplexed

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #650 on: June 14, 2016, 03:13:28 PM »
Quote from: nexzus on June 14, 2016, 02:32:31 PM
Quote from: Bullwinkle on June 14, 2016, 01:58:24 PM
Quote from: sceptimatic on June 14, 2016, 12:26:40 PM
Heavier objects are only heavier to us solely because they displace more atmosphere.


So, one cubic meter of lead is heavier than one cubic meter of styrofoam
because they each displace the exact same amount of atmosphere?

He'll say something about the porousness of the Styrofoam.

His model is based on surface area or something, along with its porousness. In his model, a 10cmx10x10 cube of lead would "weigh" more than a 12.4 cm diameter sphere of lead (both volume of 1000 cm3) because the cube has a surface area of 600 cm2 vs. the 483.05 of the sphere.

You can't do this experiment in an actual air-evacuated chamber because you have to zero out the scale or something, ie place a brick on a scale in a vacuum chamber and suck out all the air. Zero out the scale, place the brick on it again or something. But then your act of putting the brick on the scale adds energy to it or something.

It's pretty stupid.

Sounds like a can't lose hypothesis!

I wonder how he'd explain this:
" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">
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sceptimatic

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #651 on: June 14, 2016, 03:47:59 PM »
Quote from: Bullwinkle on June 14, 2016, 01:58:24 PM
Quote from: sceptimatic on June 14, 2016, 12:26:40 PM
Heavier objects are only heavier to us solely because they displace more atmosphere.


So, one cubic meter of lead is heavier than one cubic meter of styrofoam
because they each displace the exact same amount of atmosphere?
They don't.
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daftpunk

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #652 on: June 14, 2016, 03:51:01 PM »
Quote from: sceptimatic on June 14, 2016, 03:47:59 PM
Quote from: Bullwinkle on June 14, 2016, 01:58:24 PM
Quote from: sceptimatic on June 14, 2016, 12:26:40 PM
Heavier objects are only heavier to us solely because they displace more atmosphere.


So, one cubic meter of lead is heavier than one cubic meter of styrofoam
because they each displace the exact same amount of atmosphere?
They don't.

Precisely. Lead is 100% lead and 0% atmosphere, so it is heavier than styrofoam which is about 80% air.
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sceptimatic

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #653 on: June 14, 2016, 03:59:26 PM »
Quote from: daftpunk on June 14, 2016, 03:51:01 PM
Quote from: sceptimatic on June 14, 2016, 03:47:59 PM
Quote from: Bullwinkle on June 14, 2016, 01:58:24 PM
Quote from: sceptimatic on June 14, 2016, 12:26:40 PM
Heavier objects are only heavier to us solely because they displace more atmosphere.


So, one cubic meter of lead is heavier than one cubic meter of styrofoam
because they each displace the exact same amount of atmosphere?
They don't.

Precisely. Lead is 100% lead and 0% atmosphere, so it is heavier than styrofoam which is about 80% air.
Yep, so you'll understand what I'm getting at, right?
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daftpunk

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #654 on: June 14, 2016, 04:03:42 PM »
Quote from: sceptimatic on June 14, 2016, 03:59:26 PM
Quote from: daftpunk on June 14, 2016, 03:51:01 PM
Quote from: sceptimatic on June 14, 2016, 03:47:59 PM
Quote from: Bullwinkle on June 14, 2016, 01:58:24 PM
Quote from: sceptimatic on June 14, 2016, 12:26:40 PM
Heavier objects are only heavier to us solely because they displace more atmosphere.


So, one cubic meter of lead is heavier than one cubic meter of styrofoam
because they each displace the exact same amount of atmosphere?
They don't.

Precisely. Lead is 100% lead and 0% atmosphere, so it is heavier than styrofoam which is about 80% air.
Yep, so you'll understand what I'm getting at, right?

Yeah it's quite straightforward, imo.
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boydster

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #655 on: June 14, 2016, 04:16:25 PM »
Wait a tic. So lead is 100% lead and 0% atmosphere, meaning it must weigh more than styrofoam because styrofoam is only 20% styrofoam and 80% atmosphere. So the lead displaces more atmosphere.

So what about tungsten? Is that 100% tungsten? 150% titanium (you know, because it is denser than lead and one cubic meter of tungsten weighs more than a cubic meter of lead)? And Platinum? Gold? How much atmosphere do you think is in solid ice?
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daftpunk

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #656 on: June 14, 2016, 04:19:58 PM »
Quote from: boydster on June 14, 2016, 04:16:25 PM
Wait a tic. So lead is 100% lead and 0% atmosphere, meaning it must weigh more than styrofoam because styrofoam is only 20% styrofoam and 80% atmosphere. So the lead displaces more atmosphere.

So what about tungsten? Is that 100% tungsten? 150% titanium (you know, because it is denser than lead and one cubic meter of tungsten weighs more than a cubic meter of lead)? And Platinum? Gold? How much atmosphere do you think is in solid ice?

Obviously different metals have different porosities. I rounded to 100% for simplicity. Lead is probably about 70%. Nothing can ever really be 100% anything, because of the second law of thermodynamics.
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sceptimatic

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #657 on: June 14, 2016, 04:21:33 PM »
Quote from: boydster on June 14, 2016, 04:16:25 PM
Wait a tic. So lead is 100% lead and 0% atmosphere, meaning it must weigh more than styrofoam because styrofoam is only 20% styrofoam and 80% atmosphere. So the lead displaces more atmosphere.

So what about tungsten? Is that 100% tungsten? 150% titanium (you know, because it is denser than lead and one cubic meter of tungsten weighs more than a cubic meter of lead)? And Platinum? Gold? How much atmosphere do you think is in solid ice?
Lead is heavier in pure form.
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boydster

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #658 on: June 14, 2016, 04:25:47 PM »
Quote from: sceptimatic on June 14, 2016, 04:21:33 PM
Quote from: boydster on June 14, 2016, 04:16:25 PM
Wait a tic. So lead is 100% lead and 0% atmosphere, meaning it must weigh more than styrofoam because styrofoam is only 20% styrofoam and 80% atmosphere. So the lead displaces more atmosphere.

So what about tungsten? Is that 100% tungsten? 150% titanium (you know, because it is denser than lead and one cubic meter of tungsten weighs more than a cubic meter of lead)? And Platinum? Gold? How much atmosphere do you think is in solid ice?
Lead is heavier in pure form.

Than what?! Everything?? ??? Is lead the metal by which all others are judged? Why lead?
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sceptimatic

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #659 on: June 14, 2016, 04:28:25 PM »
Quote from: boydster on June 14, 2016, 04:25:47 PM
Quote from: sceptimatic on June 14, 2016, 04:21:33 PM
Quote from: boydster on June 14, 2016, 04:16:25 PM
Wait a tic. So lead is 100% lead and 0% atmosphere, meaning it must weigh more than styrofoam because styrofoam is only 20% styrofoam and 80% atmosphere. So the lead displaces more atmosphere.

So what about tungsten? Is that 100% tungsten? 150% titanium (you know, because it is denser than lead and one cubic meter of tungsten weighs more than a cubic meter of lead)? And Platinum? Gold? How much atmosphere do you think is in solid ice?
Lead is heavier in pure form.


Than what?! Everything?? ??? Is lead the metal by which all others are judged? Why lead?
It's not a case of why lead. Lead was mentioned so it was used as an example against styrofoam to basically show why they weigh differently for the same size appearance.
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