What is a kind?

That came up in the thread/poll about evolution.

Noah is said to have brought two of each kind (hebr min) into the ark. Creationists obviously do not equal min with species. So what is it? How much genetic difference can there be within one and the same kind?

Is there seriously somebody who believes that this actually happened?

Is there seriously somebody who believes that this actually happened?

Yes, plenty. But not in Europe.

Btw are you German?

That came up in the thread/poll about evolution.

Noah is said to have brought two of each kind (hebr min) into the ark. Creationists obviously do not equal min with species. So what is it? How much genetic difference can there be within one and the same kind?

Don't expect too much from a 2000 year old book.

Quote from: Kami on June 29, 2016, 03:03:40 PM

Is there seriously somebody who believes that this actually happened?

Yes, plenty. But not in Europe.

Btw are you German?

How did you know? 

Quote from: FalseProphet on June 29, 2016, 03:22:18 PM

Quote from: Kami on June 29, 2016, 03:03:40 PM

Is there seriously somebody who believes that this actually happened?

Yes, plenty. But not in Europe.

Btw are you German?

How did you know? 

Ich hab da so einen magischen Glaskugel...

The purpose of Noah collecting 2 - 7 of every kind is to have a breeding population. So, in this case wouldn't kind mean species?

The purpose of Noah collecting 2 - 7 of every kind is to have a breeding population. So, in this case wouldn't kind mean species?

Well, obviously. But you cannot get a pair of every recent species in his ark. So creationists generally believe that there was a kind of micreo.evolution after the flood which led to the current diversity. I would guess that most of them would regard jackels and wolves as decending from one pair of Noahian Canids.

Quote from: Space Cowgirl on June 29, 2016, 04:12:11 PM

The purpose of Noah collecting 2 - 7 of every kind is to have a breeding population. So, in this case wouldn't kind mean species?

Well, obviously. But you cannot get a pair of every recent species in his ark. So creationists generally believe that there was a kind of micreo.evolution after the flood which led to the current diversity. I would guess that most of them would regard jackels and wolves as decending from one pair of Noahian Canids.

I guess they have to ignore that Noah release a raven and a dove, not some Noahian version of a bird they both descended from.

Quote from: FalseProphet on June 29, 2016, 04:20:52 PM

Quote from: Space Cowgirl on June 29, 2016, 04:12:11 PM

The purpose of Noah collecting 2 - 7 of every kind is to have a breeding population. So, in this case wouldn't kind mean species?

Well, obviously. But you cannot get a pair of every recent species in his ark. So creationists generally believe that there was a kind of micreo.evolution after the flood which led to the current diversity. I would guess that most of them would regard jackels and wolves as decending from one pair of Noahian Canids.

I guess they have to ignore that Noah release a raven and a dove, not some Noahian version of a bird they both descended from.

Come on, Candy Angel (patronising), there are MANY species of ravens and doves. Faaaail again (nasty)!

JERKFACE 

Interestingly I read a page from an creationist website that also believes in macroevolution, but I've closed it now and it's gone forever. The author pointed out how Biblical kind was almost the same as scientific species, that it falls between species and genus. He said 'almost' because there are species that look the same to the layman, but a scientist would be able to tell the difference. He called this the "Adam test".  Adam identified and named the animals and plants based on their appearance.

ALSO, this is where Candy Angel comes from http://www.joesparks.com/radiskull/

The only one here who could answer this is Luke, but he will not show up. I'm much too nasty with him (and patronising).

The only one here who could answer this is Luke, but he will not show up. I'm much too nasty with him (and patronising).

Luke is boringly obtuse.

you're asking this of people who literally believe a blue whale and a tuna fish are the exact same "kind" (fish-kind) but that humans and chimps are wholly, completely separate entities that are separated by more differences than a lion and a tiger are (even though both of those are "cat-kind"). don't expect much

Maybe an indirect way of finding an answer is to find out how many kinds were on the ark? I don't know the answer to that question, but perhaps someone else does. If there were, say 50 kinds of animal, then one needs to split out all the animals alive today into 50 categories... but this is certainly far from an explanation of what "kind" means in clear terms. I don't think there can be an answer to that, though, as having a clear definition would mean the beginning of the end for Ken Hamm & co.

Just think how much change must have happened with a bottleneck event like the great flood wiping out everything except what was on the ark. Then, in the last few thousand years, animal diversity could somehow reach the level it is at today, but there is still some sort of mechanism to prevent things from changing between "kind" - like an asymptotic approach to a new kind but the threshold can never be crossed. How could things change so much, and so fast, but it's somehow illogical in the YEC mindset that the "kind" line can never be crossed?

Kind is a term whose meaning drifts insanelly. Ask a YEC about ring species, and get the popcorn ready
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That's a really good video, I feel like I know a lot more about kinds now.

Or less really.

Or less really.

True! But i mean I know more about what the YEC are talking about when they say kind.

I know. I was just being very funny.

D'oh!

I know. I was just being very funny.

That is very subjective. 

Where is Luke anyway. He needs to comment on ring species immediately!

Where is Luke anyway. He needs to comment on ring species immediately!

It takes time for him to cherry pick sentences from his manual
and creatively assign new and obtuse meaning to them.

Potholer54's follow up on his Ring Species video:



The God of Gaps argument shrinks a little more.

I'm assuming it was something like this: If they can breed together, they are the same kind.

I'm assuming it was something like this: If they can breed together, they are the same kind.

Yes. I should have formulated my question more precise. If you have animals of one kind in the time of Noah's ark, which cladistic relationship do the descendants of them have now. Are they of the same species? genus? family? order? Because that species change they generally agree.Baraminology is essential to creationism, but they never say anything about it.