Poll

Should homosexual couples have the right to marriage in the United States?

Yes
44 (77.2%)
No
13 (22.8%)

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Proposition 8

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Cinlef

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Re: Proposition 8
« Reply #90 on: November 13, 2008, 08:20:48 AM »
Quote from: ﮎingulaЯiτy on November 13, 2008, 07:36:42 AM
Quote from: Cinlef on November 12, 2008, 11:24:28 AM
Suffice it to say that opposition to gay marriage can be totally valid logically speaking (meaning that if one accepts certain propositions about morality as axioms of one's behavior one can create a coherent argument in defense of Proposition 8 ). It is of course important to remember that valid is not the same as true.
Accepting certain propositions about morality is assumption based and emotionally based. Same applies to the extension of morality to behavior. Such an argument would not logically valid as it lacks structural support.

I'm not sure if your grasping my point, all I was saying that to someone who holds certain propositions as fundamental axioms of moral reasoning an opposite to gay marriage can be logically derived from those axioms

For example my understanding is that much religious opposition to gay marriage is based on an argument essentially like this:
P1: Society must outlaw things forbidden by God
P2: Gay marriage is forbidden by God
P3: Society must outlaw gay marriage

My point was just that if someone assumes that P1 and P2 are true then P3 is a logical conclusion, not that holding propositions like P1 and P2 to be true is logical.

A clarifying
Cinlef
My previous point was simply that if someone accepted both P1 and P2 as true an argument against gay marriage is logically valid
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Wendy

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Re: Proposition 8
« Reply #91 on: November 13, 2008, 09:05:21 AM »
Quote from: ﮎingulaЯiτy on November 13, 2008, 07:36:42 AM
Quote from: Wendy on November 12, 2008, 10:26:04 PM
So you mean that creationists aren't christians?
It sounds like you disagree with the view that you are asking if it is representative of his argument.
...Did you mean to ask "Christians aren't creationists?"

I don't really care about if it's representative of his argument, I still disagree with it. Creationists are christians. Well, except, of course, they are muslims or jews. Anyway, the point is, that if creationists who "got the idea" from the bible and their christian faith, are christians still, then the old testament can't be entirely void. And I still have seen no passage in which Jesus renounces the old testament.
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Quote from: Wendy on December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM
Here's an explanation for ya. Lurk moar. Every single point you brought up has been posted, reposted, debated and debunked. There is a search function on this forum, and it is very easy to use.
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Raist

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Re: Proposition 8
« Reply #92 on: November 13, 2008, 09:07:01 AM »
Quote from: Wendy on November 12, 2008, 10:26:04 PM
Quote from: Raist on November 12, 2008, 03:27:53 PM
Quote from: Wendy on November 12, 2008, 02:01:17 PM
Quote from: Raist on November 12, 2008, 01:57:50 PM
Quote from: Wendy on November 12, 2008, 01:46:45 PM
Quote from: Raist on November 12, 2008, 12:16:50 PM
Quote from: Wendy on November 12, 2008, 11:36:41 AM
Quote from: Raist on November 12, 2008, 11:21:57 AM
Quote from: Wendy on November 12, 2008, 11:20:15 AM
Quote from: Space Cowgirl on November 12, 2008, 11:13:57 AM
It's been a long time since I looked up homosexuals in the bible.. but I don't remember Jesus saying anything about them, wasn't all that in the OT?
Yes, but that's not the issue. Technically, the most holy book in the word, and to some christians, the infallible word of God, says thathomosexuality is wrong. Therefore, one cannot expect a priest to marry a gay couple. Ever. Even if the law says it is allowed, a priest can still tell them to gtfo, because it's against his religion.

Please give a quote, and an interpretation of the quote from a reputable source.

How do you mean? Haven't we all seen those quotes over and over again?

Quote from: Leviticus 18:22
Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

I think it's pretty straightforward. Go watch one of Venomfangx's videos on homosexuality instead, I'm sure he'll know all about what the bible has to say. Also, do you have any quotes from the bible in which  Jesus or God approves of homosexuality?

Circular reasoning is amazing. We don't need to see them because we've seen them already.

At least I provided it. Would you care to answer my question now?
I didn't see that, tired and hung over. Jesus proclaimed the old testament thrown out. I'm looking for new testament here.
In order for it to apply to a modern day christian, I need a new testament quote.

So you mean that creationists aren't christians?

I never said the beginning of the Bible was wrong. Just that the rules no longer apply. I believe creationists are Christians stuck on a pagan myth they need to explain the Universe.
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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Proposition 8
« Reply #93 on: November 13, 2008, 11:16:27 AM »
Quote from: Cinlef on November 12, 2008, 05:50:35 PM
Quote from: Space Cowgirl on November 12, 2008, 04:09:12 PM

I understand perfectly what they mean by "sanctity of marriage"..  what I'm saying is that marriage isn't owned by the religious.  It's a contract between two people and the govt.  God is only involved if the people being married so choose.  People get married everyday by judges, or justices of the peace without any religious ceremonies.. they are still "married".  Do you understand what I'm saying?  Christian "fanatics" don't own the word, and they didn't coin it.  Now they are taking civil unions and domestic partnerships away from the gays as well.. this isn't about protecting the sanctity of marriage, it's about them forcing their religious views on everyone. 

I didn't post the link to the bible quotes for you.  It was for Raist and Wendy, cause they were looking for quotes about homos in the bible... and I find the mocking of people's "cherished beliefs" to be much preferable to pretentious fake outrage.
I'm not saying that the word marriage is owned by the anyone simply that it is felt to be, which is a result of a confusion between marriage in a religious sense (ie a ceremony performed by a priest/rabbi/group of believers etc that is binding on adherents of that faith[ as long as they are adherents of that faith]) as opposed to marriage in the legal/civil sense (the contract/legal status with the legal privileges it confers and as you mentioned.
As to it being about forcing beliefs on to others, it certainly is and I'm reasonably sure I never implied otherwise..... (if I did feel free to throw the quote in my face cause I'd deserve it)

As to my comments on the Bible annotation site, I'll grant that mockery is better than pretentious fake outrage, (and rereading my post yeah I really seemed like a prick though I do stand by the gist of what I said) I was mostly annoyed in that it seems to perpetrate an assumption I find homophobic, that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because of the inhabitants being homosexual, it seems to me that the final straw that lead to their destruction was the fact they were willing to rape guests thus  raping  someone and violating the code of hospitality (Compare Genesis 19 with Letter to the Hebrews 13:1-3)
Sorry if I came off as an arrogant jerk (well as more of an arrogant jerk than I in fact am)

A contrite
Cinlef

No worries, it's all in the spirit of debate!


Gay marriage is not a sin, I don't believe it's mentioned at all in the bible.  Gay sex is the sin.. along with every other kind of fornication.  The Christians get overly worked up about gay sex, but not so much about what they consider more "natural" types of fornication.  I'm sure that if some of them had their way fornication of all types would be outlawed, but since many of them are likely living in sin themselves maybe they should check the beam in their own eyes before worrying about the mote in another's. 

No one is suggesting forcing churches to perform ceremonies which are against their beliefs.  If Christians don't wish to recognize a marriage as valid, then they don't have to.  Legally, their beliefs shouldn't matter. 
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Quote from: Thork on November 27, 2012, 12:25:43 PM
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.
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Cinlef

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Re: Proposition 8
« Reply #94 on: November 13, 2008, 11:44:41 AM »
Quote from: Moonlit on November 12, 2008, 03:30:33 PM
Firstly, I find it absolutely ridiculous that California decided all the sudden to ban something they allowed.  That should be illegal like double jeopardy, or at least left to the state congress to decide and not the every day voter. 

Just to clarify what was the exact text of Proposition 8 (I'm having a surprisingly hard time finding it online.)

A curious
Cinlef
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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Proposition 8
« Reply #95 on: November 13, 2008, 11:55:48 AM »
At the bottom of the page there are links to the full text and other websites which describe it http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php?title=California_Proposition_8_(2008)
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Quote from: Thork on November 27, 2012, 12:25:43 PM
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.
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Recusant

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Re: Proposition 8
« Reply #96 on: November 13, 2008, 12:18:40 PM »
Marriage is a traditionalist value. Conservatives should love it that these faggots want to be incorporated into their dying institutions.

Being homosexual used to be all about fun. You could live in sin and scandal and have as much gorgeous buttsex as you wanted with no obligation to society. Nowadays, homosexuals want to marry, adopt children, raise families, attend church and vote Republican. THIS IS MADNESS! They actually want these responsibilities! Just when we're finally abandoning family values and letting marriage become meaningless, these queers come along and fuck everything up!

In the name of all secular progresives, I say:

Fuck you, Gay Community! >:(
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Trekky0623

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Re: Proposition 8
« Reply #97 on: November 13, 2008, 12:22:39 PM »
Quote from: Space Cowgirl on November 13, 2008, 11:16:27 AM
Gay marriage is not a sin, I don't believe it's mentioned at all in the bible.  Gay sex is the sin.. along with every other kind of fornication.  The Christians get overly worked up about gay sex, but not so much about what they consider more "natural" types of fornication.  I'm sure that if some of them had their way fornication of all types would be outlawed, but since many of them are likely living in sin themselves maybe they should check the beam in their own eyes before worrying about the mote in another's.   

Every religion throws out of their holy book what is inconvenient.
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Cinlef

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Re: Proposition 8
« Reply #98 on: November 13, 2008, 12:27:30 PM »
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Quote from: Colonel Gaydafi on February 07, 2009, 03:54:06 AM
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Trekky0623

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Re: Proposition 8
« Reply #99 on: November 13, 2008, 12:32:14 PM »
Quote from: Emir Parkreiner on November 13, 2008, 12:59:42 AM
Those fags sure got told.

And what's so important about calling it a marriage when they can have an identical legal relationship with a different name?

In most states, homosexuals can't have a civil union.
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KingMan

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Re: Proposition 8
« Reply #100 on: November 13, 2008, 02:06:18 PM »
Quote from: Space Cowgirl on November 13, 2008, 11:16:27 AM

Gay marriage is not a sin, I don't believe it's mentioned at all in the bible.  Gay sex is the sin.. along with every other kind of fornication.  The Christians get overly worked up about gay sex, but not so much about what they consider more "natural" types of fornication.  I'm sure that if some of them had their way fornication of all types would be outlawed, but since many of them are likely living in sin themselves maybe they should check the beam in their own eyes before worrying about the mote in another's. 

No one is suggesting forcing churches to perform ceremonies which are against their beliefs.  If Christians don't wish to recognize a marriage as valid, then they don't have to.  Legally, their beliefs shouldn't matter. 
It may not be mentioned in the bible, but it is pretty obvious that God meant marriage to be between men and women. Otheer wise he would have made Adam and Steve, not Adam and Eve.
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Raist

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Re: Proposition 8
« Reply #101 on: November 13, 2008, 02:08:16 PM »
Quote from: KingMan on November 13, 2008, 02:06:18 PM
Quote from: Space Cowgirl on November 13, 2008, 11:16:27 AM

Gay marriage is not a sin, I don't believe it's mentioned at all in the bible.  Gay sex is the sin.. along with every other kind of fornication.  The Christians get overly worked up about gay sex, but not so much about what they consider more "natural" types of fornication.  I'm sure that if some of them had their way fornication of all types would be outlawed, but since many of them are likely living in sin themselves maybe they should check the beam in their own eyes before worrying about the mote in another's. 

No one is suggesting forcing churches to perform ceremonies which are against their beliefs.  If Christians don't wish to recognize a marriage as valid, then they don't have to.  Legally, their beliefs shouldn't matter. 
It may not be mentioned in the bible, but it is pretty obvious that God meant marriage to be between men and women. Otheer wise he would have made Adam and Steve, not Adam and Eve.

a) he didn't make adam and eve.

b) starting out with a homosexual couple would be a very dumb way to start a species.

The bible makes no mention of marriage between Adam and Eve. There is no suggestion he cares about marriage, and definitely no suggestion about who should be in a marriage.
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Moonlit

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Re: Proposition 8
« Reply #102 on: November 13, 2008, 02:08:52 PM »
Quote from: KingMan on November 13, 2008, 02:06:18 PM
It may not be mentioned in the bible, but it is pretty obvious that God meant marriage to be between men and women. Otheer wise he would have made Adam and Steve, not Adam and Eve.

I hate when Christians say this.  As if everyone accepts the wonderous tale of Adam and Eve.  You fail.
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Quote from: Saddam Hussein on October 02, 2010, 01:44:40 PM
You think that a photograph is indisputable evidence?  Would you like me to show you a photograph of Barack Obama having sex with a gorilla?
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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Proposition 8
« Reply #103 on: November 13, 2008, 02:10:16 PM »
lol.. Adam and Eve weren't married.  

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Quote from: Thork on November 27, 2012, 12:25:43 PM
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.
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Moonlit

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Re: Proposition 8
« Reply #104 on: November 13, 2008, 02:12:44 PM »
Quote from: Space Cowgirl on November 13, 2008, 02:10:16 PM
lol.. Adam and Eve weren't married.  

Well, it's never mentioned either way.  I guess you're supposed to assume that they are married simply for the fact that god created Eve for Adam.  Then again, there were no preists/preachers to perform a ceremony.
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Quote from: Saddam Hussein on October 02, 2010, 01:44:40 PM
You think that a photograph is indisputable evidence?  Would you like me to show you a photograph of Barack Obama having sex with a gorilla?
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Raist

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Re: Proposition 8
« Reply #105 on: November 13, 2008, 02:14:16 PM »
Quote from: Moonlit on November 13, 2008, 02:12:44 PM
Quote from: Space Cowgirl on November 13, 2008, 02:10:16 PM
lol.. Adam and Eve weren't married.  

Well, it's never mentioned either way.  I guess you're supposed to assume that they are married simply for the fact that god created Eve for Adam.  Then again, there were no preists/preachers to perform a ceremony.

This is why I don't think premarital sex is bad. The bible just says don't cheat on your wife.
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Recusant

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Re: Proposition 8
« Reply #106 on: November 13, 2008, 02:21:04 PM »
Hi, my name is Timmy. I'm a languishing orphan because they wouldn't let Adam and Steve adopt me.
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Moonlit

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Re: Proposition 8
« Reply #107 on: November 13, 2008, 02:21:21 PM »
Quote from: Raist on November 13, 2008, 02:14:16 PM
Quote from: Moonlit on November 13, 2008, 02:12:44 PM
Quote from: Space Cowgirl on November 13, 2008, 02:10:16 PM
lol.. Adam and Eve weren't married.  

Well, it's never mentioned either way.  I guess you're supposed to assume that they are married simply for the fact that god created Eve for Adam.  Then again, there were no preists/preachers to perform a ceremony.

This is why I don't think premarital sex is bad. The bible just says don't cheat on your wife.

It doesn't mention premarital sex but it does mention sex outside of marriage.  That includes you if you're not married.
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Quote from: Saddam Hussein on October 02, 2010, 01:44:40 PM
You think that a photograph is indisputable evidence?  Would you like me to show you a photograph of Barack Obama having sex with a gorilla?
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Raist

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Re: Proposition 8
« Reply #108 on: November 13, 2008, 02:22:10 PM »
Quote from: Moonlit on November 13, 2008, 02:21:21 PM
Quote from: Raist on November 13, 2008, 02:14:16 PM
Quote from: Moonlit on November 13, 2008, 02:12:44 PM
Quote from: Space Cowgirl on November 13, 2008, 02:10:16 PM
lol.. Adam and Eve weren't married.  

Well, it's never mentioned either way.  I guess you're supposed to assume that they are married simply for the fact that god created Eve for Adam.  Then again, there were no preists/preachers to perform a ceremony.

This is why I don't think premarital sex is bad. The bible just says don't cheat on your wife.

It doesn't mention premarital sex but it does mention sex outside of marriage.  That includes you if you're not married.

I'm pretty sure than language was intentionally used later. The original terms were do not commit adultery.
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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: Proposition 8
« Reply #109 on: November 13, 2008, 02:26:54 PM »
Quote from: KingMan on November 13, 2008, 02:06:18 PM
It may not be mentioned in the bible, but it is pretty obvious that God meant marriage to be between men and women. Otherwise he would have made Adam and Steve, not Adam and Eve.
1. You assume God exists
2. You assume He created Adam and Eve.
3. You assume he disapproves of homosexuality.
4. Your example is flawed, because if he did exist, as Christians define him, wouldn't create a generation without the ability to procreate.
5. The Christian definition of God included benevolence. Disapproving of homosexuality is contradictory because it shows a prejudice in God.
6. If God didn't accept homosexuality, he would create any homosexuals.

Never, ever, use fairy tales to support an argument.

Edit: It looks like other people already listed these things, but now they are nice and neat to display your lacking. Also, the bible was written by man, not god. Many Christians accept this.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2008, 02:28:41 PM by ﮎingulaЯiτy »
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Saddam Hussein

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Re: Proposition 8
« Reply #110 on: November 13, 2008, 02:28:49 PM »
I think KingMan's trolling.  He's deliberately posting stereotypical Christian fundamentalist arguments.
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Recusant

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Re: Proposition 8
« Reply #111 on: November 13, 2008, 02:31:07 PM »
Quote from: Saddam Hussein on November 13, 2008, 02:28:49 PM
I think KingMan's trolling.  He's deliberately posting stereotypical Christian fundamentalist arguments.
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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: Proposition 8
« Reply #112 on: November 13, 2008, 02:38:16 PM »
Quote from: Cinlef on November 13, 2008, 08:20:48 AM
I'm not sure if your grasping my point, all I was saying that to someone who holds certain propositions as fundamental axioms of moral reasoning an opposite to gay marriage can be logically derived from those axioms

For example my understanding is that much religious opposition to gay marriage is based on an argument essentially like this:
P1: Society must outlaw things forbidden by God
P2: Gay marriage is forbidden by God
P3: Society must outlaw gay marriage

My point was just that if someone assumes that P1 and P2 are true then P3 is a logical conclusion, not that holding propositions like P1 and P2 to be true is logical.

A clarifying
Cinlef
My previous point was simply that if someone accepted both P1 and P2 as true an argument against gay marriage is logically valid
I understand, I just disagree that moral opinions can provide a solid foundation for logical inquiry.
You do not contest that P1 and P2 may or may not be right, but I feel that it cannot be a logical argument unless both the structure is correct, and the premises are true. You believe it is a logical argument regardless of whether or not P1 or P2 is correct.
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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: Proposition 8
« Reply #113 on: November 13, 2008, 02:39:33 PM »
Quote from: Saddam Hussein on November 13, 2008, 02:28:49 PM
I think KingMan's trolling.  He's deliberately posting stereotypical Christian fundamentalist arguments.
Still, I doubt everyone who is prejudice against gays is speaking up, and our responses to Kingman gives them something to think about.
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Cinlef

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Re: Proposition 8
« Reply #114 on: November 13, 2008, 04:13:12 PM »
Quote from: ﮎingulaЯiτy on November 13, 2008, 02:38:16 PM
Quote from: Cinlef on November 13, 2008, 08:20:48 AM
I'm not sure if your grasping my point, all I was saying that to someone who holds certain propositions as fundamental axioms of moral reasoning an opposite to gay marriage can be logically derived from those axioms

For example my understanding is that much religious opposition to gay marriage is based on an argument essentially like this:
P1: Society must outlaw things forbidden by God
P2: Gay marriage is forbidden by God
P3: Society must outlaw gay marriage

My point was just that if someone assumes that P1 and P2 are true then P3 is a logical conclusion, not that holding propositions like P1 and P2 to be true is logical.

A clarifying
Cinlef
My previous point was simply that if someone accepted both P1 and P2 as true an argument against gay marriage is logically valid
I understand, I just disagree that moral opinions can provide a solid foundation for logical inquiry.
You do not contest that P1 and P2 may or may not be right, but I feel that it cannot be a logical argument unless both the structure is correct, and the premises are true. You believe it is a logical argument regardless of whether or not P1 or P2 is correct.
Your confusing a sound argument (one which is valid and in which the premises are true) with a valid argument
It is a valid argument (in the technical sense) regardless of the truth of the propositions as long as it follows the rules of logic. What your talking about is whether or not the argument is sound.

Quote from: Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/logical-consequence/
A good argument is one whose conclusions follow from its premises; its conclusions are consequences of its premises. But in what sense do conclusions follow from premises? What is it for a conclusion to be a consequence of premises? Those questions, in many respects, are at the heart of logic (as a philosophical discipline). Consider the following argument:

   1. If we charge high fees for university, only the rich will enroll.
      We charge high fees for university.
      Therefore, only the rich will enroll.

There are many different things one can say about this argument, but many agree that if we do not equivocate (if the terms mean the same thing in the premises and the conclusion) then the argument is valid, that is, the conclusion follows deductively from the premises. This does not mean that the conclusion is true. Perhaps the premises are not true. However, if the premises are true, then the conclusion is also true, as a matter of logic.

A clarifying
Cinlef
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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: Proposition 8
« Reply #115 on: November 13, 2008, 06:00:12 PM »
Ah, I used the wrong term. I must confess that I didn't realize there was a substantial difference between a valid and a sound argument. I only intended to point out that it isn't a valid conclusion, not that the form wasn't valid.  :)
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Cinlef

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Re: Proposition 8
« Reply #116 on: November 13, 2008, 06:48:43 PM »
Quote from: KingMan on November 13, 2008, 02:06:18 PM
Quote from: Space Cowgirl on November 13, 2008, 11:16:27 AM

Gay marriage is not a sin, I don't believe it's mentioned at all in the bible.  Gay sex is the sin.. along with every other kind of fornication.  The Christians get overly worked up about gay sex, but not so much about what they consider more "natural" types of fornication.  I'm sure that if some of them had their way fornication of all types would be outlawed, but since many of them are likely living in sin themselves maybe they should check the beam in their own eyes before worrying about the mote in another's. 

No one is suggesting forcing churches to perform ceremonies which are against their beliefs.  If Christians don't wish to recognize a marriage as valid, then they don't have to.  Legally, their beliefs shouldn't matter. 
It may not be mentioned in the bible, but it is pretty obvious that God meant marriage to be between men and women. Otheer wise he would have made Adam and Steve, not Adam and Eve.

Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve is an idiotic argument that is used largely because its rhyming nature makes it easy to chant.

That said even assuming that homosexual sex is a sin as is stated in the Old Testament and never contradicted by Jesus [Note this is extremeely different from saying homosexuality itself as a sin] suppporting Proposition 8 does not necessarily follow.

Preventing gay couples from enjoying the secular legal benefits of marriage is not going to stop them having sex ( I'll withdraw that statement if you can find me a peer reviewed study showing that forbidding civil recognition for gay couples causes them to become chaste....but I'll wager you won't find one). This isn't like abortion or prostitution where a convincing case can be made that if it was illegal rate of the activity considered immoral would fall.
If Proposition 8 will not in fact affect the actual sin involved in any way while at the same time causing harm to homosexuals ( as it does by depriving them of certain legal advantages) then I see no reason to support a ban on gay marriage.

A puzzled
Cinlef
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Truth is great and will prevail-Thomas Jefferson

Quote from: Colonel Gaydafi on February 07, 2009, 03:54:06 AM
I've said it before and I'll say it again, Cinlef is the bestest!

Melior est sapientia quam vires-Wisdom
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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: Proposition 8
« Reply #117 on: November 13, 2008, 07:31:29 PM »
How are you a moderator with only 502 posts? Do you know Daniel?
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If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.
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Cinlef

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Re: Proposition 8
« Reply #118 on: November 13, 2008, 07:35:47 PM »
Quote from: ﮎingulaЯiτy on November 13, 2008, 07:31:29 PM
How are you a moderator with only 502 posts? Do you know Daniel?
I was on the Forums when they first started, for a while I was one of the most frequent posters,and was made a mod. But then for a number of reasons I didn't have the time to post on the Forums so I've been more or less totally inactive for the last year and a half.....
But now circumstances have changed and I should have enough free time that I can occasionally frequent the Forums again

An explaining
Cinlef
« Last Edit: November 13, 2008, 08:17:22 PM by Cinlef »
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Truth is great and will prevail-Thomas Jefferson

Quote from: Colonel Gaydafi on February 07, 2009, 03:54:06 AM
I've said it before and I'll say it again, Cinlef is the bestest!

Melior est sapientia quam vires-Wisdom
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Parsifal

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Re: Proposition 8
« Reply #119 on: November 13, 2008, 07:53:20 PM »
Quote from: Cinlef on November 13, 2008, 07:35:47 PM
A explaining

You forgot the "n" this time. ::)
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Quote from: Ævan on August 11, 2013, 01:18:20 PM
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.
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