Another mass shooting...

As the saying goes...someone who gives up an ounce of freedom for security deserves neither.

I've never heard that saying before.  It sounds like nonsense, to be honest.

To live as a part of a society we give up all sorts of freedoms - otherwise you don't have a civilisation, you have anarchy.  The Rule of Law is an agreement to give up certain freedoms for the greater good.

Do you think that people have the right to posses a tank or a predator drone or a stealth bomber or a thermonuclear missile?  I'm guessing not, at least on the nuclear missile front.  In which case you and scepti and myself all agree that the state should restrict citizens access to weapons - what we disagree on is which weapons.

So this is an argument about the degree by which the state should restrict access to weapons, not some absolute position.  Just because someone might want stricter laws around gun ownership, does not mean they want (or deserve) to live in a totalitarian dictatorship.

Quote from: Space Cowgirl on November 13, 2017, 10:20:42 AM

It doesn't make sense because we all agree (I think) that there are certain things we shouldn't be free to do. You are not free to assault other people, to steal from them, to murder them, etc. We have agreed to give up the freedom to do those things in exchange for security.

Infringement on someone's basic civil rights has always been protected, since the foundation of this country. That is as far as it can go though. Any further you start your walk off the cliff.

I think you are forgetting about some pretty serious basic civil rights infringements that were carried out by our founders. The only people whose civil rights were protected since the foundation were white male landowners. 

Quote from: Babyhighspeed on November 13, 2017, 10:42:32 AM

Quote from: Space Cowgirl on November 13, 2017, 10:20:42 AM

It doesn't make sense because we all agree (I think) that there are certain things we shouldn't be free to do. You are not free to assault other people, to steal from them, to murder them, etc. We have agreed to give up the freedom to do those things in exchange for security.

Infringement on someone's basic civil rights has always been protected, since the foundation of this country. That is as far as it can go though. Any further you start your walk off the cliff.

I think you are forgetting about some pretty serious basic civil rights infringements that were carried out by our founders. The only people whose civil rights were protected since the foundation were white male landowners.

Good point.  Even during the constitutional convention in 1787, slaves were only considered 3/5 of a person.

I think you are forgetting about some pretty serious basic civil rights infringements that were carried out by our founders. The only people whose civil rights were protected since the foundation were white male landowners.

I cannot disagree with that. It did cross my mind when typing that, however didn't know if I wanted to go there or not.

Though even slaves had rights, however, unfortunately was not observed or enforced often.

Slavery is a shit piece of history for human beings. All races and genders have been enslaved at one point or the other. Still is happening in certain parts.

Also, remember here, some of the first slave owners were black themselves. Not that it really matters, just shows it is a human condition and not a race one.

Quote from: Space Cowgirl on November 13, 2017, 12:40:02 PM

I think you are forgetting about some pretty serious basic civil rights infringements that were carried out by our founders. The only people whose civil rights were protected since the foundation were white male landowners.

I cannot disagree with that. It did cross my mind when typing that, however didn't know if I wanted to go there or not.

Though even slaves had rights, however, unfortunately was not observed or enforced often.

Slavery is a shit piece of history for human beings. All races and genders have been enslaved at one point or the other. Still is happening in certain parts.

Also, remember here, some of the first slave owners were black themselves. Not that it really matters, just shows it is a human condition and not a race one.

Slavery and Master have just evolved to different words but mean much the same

Master = Employer
Slave = Employee

While some of us have the luxury of choice, in many parts of the world, you are a slave from your own kind. One example are the 'sweat shops' in Asia

Go back in history and you will find mankinds greatest achievements and monuments were due to slaves. The Pyramids, the Great Wall etc. We all marvel at these accomplishments today but hell, it is said more than a million people died building the Great Wall which is nearly double that of those that died in the American Civil War!

Slavery is not just an American thing of white masters and black slaves. Every nation, including many today are guilty of enslaving others to the contempt of human rights. To only allow the label of slavery in the context of America centuries ago does a grave disservice to the genuine suffering of people who are still be every true definition of the word, slaves today. I know, its not 'politically correct' to label a non white male as a slave master but its true.

I walk past Chinese massage parlours here and I feel so sorry for the 'employees' slaves. Paid an illegal pittance well below minimum wage laws, some of them are forced to offer 'happy endings' to make additional $$$ for their slave masters (who shock horror is not a white male but a fellow Chinese/Asian)

I walk past Chinese massage parlours here and I feel so sorry for the 'employees' slaves. Paid an illegal pittance well below minimum wage laws, some of them are forced to offer 'happy endings' to make additional $$$ for their slave masters (who shock horror is not a white male but a fellow Chinese/Asian)

Well to be fair you'll find out that most of the companies that produce their stuff there are owned by white dudes.

If you go high enough up the corporate ladder, sure. But does the owner of a factory in China give a damn he drives some of his workers to suicide while only paying them a few dollars a day while he lives a life of luxury from their literal blood, sweat and tears?

If you go high enough up the corporate ladder, sure. But does the owner of a factory in China give a damn he drives some of his workers to suicide while only paying them a few dollars a day while he lives a life of luxury from their literal blood, sweat and tears?

Doesn't seem like they care.

Slavery and Master have just evolved to different words but mean much the same

Master = Employer
Slave = Employee

Employee to boss: You can't fire me.  Slaves have to be sold.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/police-presence-at-marjory-stoneman-douglas-high-in-florida-live-updates/

What the hell is going on with our high schools?  This seems to happen a lot.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/police-presence-at-marjory-stoneman-douglas-high-in-florida-live-updates/

What the hell is going on with our high schools?  This seems to happen a lot.

It sure has nothing to do with guns and gun control.

It's that liberal brainwashing the schools are doing nowadays.

It's that liberal brainwashing the schools are doing nowadays.

If you tell everyone they are a victim, it's only natural that some will believe it and want to take action/revenge

Quote from: crutonius on February 14, 2018, 12:47:39 PM

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/police-presence-at-marjory-stoneman-douglas-high-in-florida-live-updates/

What the hell is going on with our high schools?  This seems to happen a lot.

It sure has nothing to do with guns and gun control.

The shooting has many things to it.

There's lots of anger in the world right now. It's more than guns. I mean, the guns aren't helping, but they're not the cause of all this anger and hatred.

This kind of thing did not happen when I was in high school, and we had guns back then.  This seems to be a snowflake generation epidemic. 

So we are only halfway through February and apparently this is already the 18th school shooting. 17 dead at the moment.

WTF is wrong with people? Not sure why there are so many angry people that want to indiscriminately take lives. Forget gun control. This is a cultural problem now. A generation of psychopathic narcissists walk among you.

Does anybody know how many of these psycho shooters were affected in some way by social media,  either being bullied,  or radicalized in some way.

Maybe jroa is right, ( got to be a first time for everything ) maybe there is a generation of snowflakes who get bullied and socially isolated.  Then one day they snap.

When I look at people talking about almost any topic on the internet it's filled with hate.

I have often believed that social media has actually disconnected people from each other. The 'connection' we get from social media is faux.

It has devalued life to nothing more than a screen. On the inside, we still crave that real connection with people. It is who we are, but we have isolated ourselves without realising it. When you go out for dinner, to fill the time while waiting for your meal, you used to talk to the person you were with, laugh, make jokes, hold their hand etc. We don't do that anymore. We are glued to our screens in silence. We are social creatures but that is anything but social. It's living a life in solitary. We know how that mindfucks people up. This social media and screen time probably does a similar job on peoples psychiatric wellbeing

I have often believed that social media has actually disconnected people from each other. The 'connection' we get from social media is faux.

It has devalued life to nothing more than a screen. On the inside, we still crave that real connection with people. It is who we are, but we have isolated ourselves without realising it. When you go out for dinner, to fill the time while waiting for your meal, you used to talk to the person you were with, laugh, make jokes, hold their hand etc. We don't do that anymore. We are glued to our screens in silence. We are social creatures but that is anything but social. It's living a life in solitary. We know how that mindfucks people up. This social media and screen time probably does a similar job on peoples psychiatric wellbeing

Well said.  I wonder if anyone has done research on the connection between todays crop of mass shootings and social media?
   

This kind of thing did not happen when I was in high school, and we had guns back then.  This seems to be a snowflake generation epidemic.

Well it sure does happen now and doesn't really happen where people don't have guns so...

Quote from: DuckDodgers on February 14, 2018, 01:43:04 PM

It's that liberal brainwashing the schools are doing nowadays.

If you tell everyone they are a victim, it's only natural that some will believe it and want to take action/revenge

You people really don't understand the newer generations. Very few people actually think they're victims or behave like snowflakes, or at least very little people compared to what's normal for teens. It's not a prevalent mentality, actually it's the opposite. They're more likely to feel ashamed, angry or unimportant. Do you know how common depression and high levels of stress are now? It's almost the default. Because the world is much more indifferent to individuals than it used to be, for many reasons, and it's so easy to get completely isolated. I guess the internet plays a role in this too. People get shut out of social contact, then they find other angry people anonymously expressing their anger on the internet, and it's so easy for things to get out of control. Then there's also how polite society now is and how it represses that anger. Things build up and get really dangerous over time.

Great post DNO.
I'd like to say that we're too busy trying to treat the symptom and not the cause. We tend to prescribe drugs that are a band-aid instead of getting to the root of the younger generations depression and anxiety.

Social media, the mainstream media and advertisements (don't get me started on advertisements) are absolutely damaging our children that's why I am always on about how evil it is.

I guess the internet plays a role in this too. People get shut out of social contact, then they find other angry people anonymously expressing their anger on the internet, and it's so easy for things to get out of control. Then there's also how polite society now is and how it represses that anger. Things build up and get really dangerous over time.

I will say these two points contradict each other, shitposting is pretty therapeutic. Better than the social competition that facebook has become.

Quote from: Definitely Not Official on February 15, 2018, 02:52:02 AM

I guess the internet plays a role in this too. People get shut out of social contact, then they find other angry people anonymously expressing their anger on the internet, and it's so easy for things to get out of control. Then there's also how polite society now is and how it represses that anger. Things build up and get really dangerous over time.

I will say these two points contradict each other, shitposting is pretty therapeutic. Better than the social competition that facebook has become.

I don't know, maybe shitposting is therapeutic for some people, but other people get stuck in circle jerks that fuel their anger.

I kind of feel like the social media/smartphone thing is sometimes perceived as a bigger problem than it actually is. I always see the older generation complain the younger ones are on their phone 24/7. My own experience is, that if you are going out with friends, noone uses their phone (except for maybe showing a funny pic or checking what time it is). And this is the case for basically all people I know.
Of course, there sure are some that are all the time on their phone, even when with friends (especially the so called 'influencers'; but at least they make money with it). But I'd say those are a small percentage, and they are probably addicted, meaning they'd need help. And some addicts and weird people have always existed and will always exist, I doubt that the percentage is any higher than let's say, 50 years ago.

I kind of agree with DNO. I feel like expressing your anger about anything has become very hard to do in the real world - you never know whether someone films you, and the stuff might getting uploaded to the internet, which could destroy your later career. Also, the pc stuff has gotten kind of over-the-top sometimes. And if there is no outlet for anger, it might add up until all the anger bursts out at once (doesn't have to be as bad as a school shooting, but worse than if someone could express their anger in a normal way).

Also, I doubt that shitposting works therapeutic in the long run, I'd say at best it would work short term.

I kind of feel like the social media/smartphone thing is sometimes perceived as a bigger problem than it actually is. I always see the older generation complain the younger ones are on their phone 24/7. My own experience is, that if you are going out with friends, noone uses their phone (except for maybe showing a funny pic or checking what time it is). And this is the case for basically all people I know.

I also agree with that. Young people don't use them to replace social contact as much as to fill in the gaps in between. One thing that does happen though is how posting on social media becomes such an important part of some people's lives that it starts detracting from various experiences.

I kind of agree with DNO. I feel like expressing your anger about anything has become very hard to do in the real world - you never know whether someone films you, and the stuff might getting uploaded to the internet, which could destroy your later career. Also, the pc stuff has gotten kind of over-the-top sometimes. And if there is no outlet for anger, it might add up until all the anger bursts out at once (doesn't have to be as bad as a school shooting, but worse than if someone could express their anger in a normal way).

The repression of anger isn't the main issue though. The issue is that the anger and the anxiety and the isolation exist and it's kind of complicated why that is. It's hard to pinpoint it on just one thing.

Also, I doubt that shitposting works therapeutic in the long run, I'd say at best it would work short term.

Yeah I don't think it's really therapeutic for most people either...

There are so many places on the net that circle jerk beyond social media. The internet as a whole is a powerful tool, but is very easy for someone to misuse and help fuel their isolation and bitterness.

The reason people go after the bandaid fix is it's largely 1 size fits all. It may not be enough in 10% of cases, but it is in 90%. If you don't do the bandaid, it takes for effort to address the 90% that the bandaid helps. However, more help needs to be given to the 10% so that they have healthy ways to cope with their issues.

I don't believe all the young people are special snowflakes. What I do see is that the ones that are snowflakes (ever generation has them) are finding that being a snowflake gets rewarded in some way on social media (check out tumblr, srsly). You get oppression points if you self diagnose with depression, or autism, or whatever. The angry ones who shoot up schools and shit find communities of other angry people and instead of dealing with their issues they wallow in them.

Having mental problems is now an excuse for shooting up a school. Everyone's talking about the guns, hardly anyone is talking about the underlying problems with our society. My Twitter timeline is filled with NRA outrage, and as usual the lines are being drawn and we will get nowhere and this will happen again in a few days.

Social media allows for fast widespread behavioral contagion. Used to be that this type of thing was contained in a small area, but now it travels to everyone instantly.