Jordan Peterson... thoughts?

Not all speech is free speech,

Give me an example.

[not the ratadad fire in a theatare BS]

Quote from: Space Cowgirl on November 26, 2020, 03:27:51 PM

Quote from: Pezevenk on November 26, 2020, 01:56:43 PM

It's very curious how angry you are at employees not supporting publishing Peterson's book.

It's very curious you think I'm angry at employees because I want to have a discussion about them trying to block publication of Jordan Peterson's book, in a thread about Jordan Peterson, on a forum that is for having discussions about this sort of thing.

So we're having that discussion and you clearly don't seem very happy about them lol

What does my happiness have to do with anything? Do I need to be happy about their behavior in order to discuss it?  You are clearly not happy that I pointed out their behavior, why is that?

Quote from: Pezevenk on November 26, 2020, 03:33:23 PM

Quote from: Space Cowgirl on November 26, 2020, 03:27:51 PM

Quote from: Pezevenk on November 26, 2020, 01:56:43 PM

It's very curious how angry you are at employees not supporting publishing Peterson's book.

It's very curious you think I'm angry at employees because I want to have a discussion about them trying to block publication of Jordan Peterson's book, in a thread about Jordan Peterson, on a forum that is for having discussions about this sort of thing.

So we're having that discussion and you clearly don't seem very happy about them lol

What does my happiness have to do with anything? Do I need to be happy about their behavior in order to discuss it?  You are clearly not happy that I pointed out their behavior, why is that?

Did I say you have to be happy about their behavior to discuss it? I said I find it curious that you are angry about it. I don't understand what you are acting like you don't have any opinion now. If that is even what you are doing,  because to be honest I'm not sure what the point you are making now is supposed to be, like, yeah, this is a discussion, I know, what's the point?

Quote from: Space Cowgirl on November 26, 2020, 03:53:09 PM

Quote from: Pezevenk on November 26, 2020, 03:33:23 PM

Quote from: Space Cowgirl on November 26, 2020, 03:27:51 PM

Quote from: Pezevenk on November 26, 2020, 01:56:43 PM

It's very curious how angry you are at employees not supporting publishing Peterson's book.

It's very curious you think I'm angry at employees because I want to have a discussion about them trying to block publication of Jordan Peterson's book, in a thread about Jordan Peterson, on a forum that is for having discussions about this sort of thing.

So we're having that discussion and you clearly don't seem very happy about them lol

What does my happiness have to do with anything? Do I need to be happy about their behavior in order to discuss it?  You are clearly not happy that I pointed out their behavior, why is that?

Did I say you have to be happy about their behavior to discuss it? I said I find it curious that you are angry about it. I don't understand what you are acting like you don't have any opinion now. If that is even what you are doing,  because to be honest I'm not sure what the point you are making now is supposed to be, like, yeah, this is a discussion, I know, what's the point?

U mad, bro? You seem a bit angry, tbh.

Quote from: markjo on November 26, 2020, 02:53:22 PM

Not all speech is free speech,

Give me an example.

[not the ratadad fire in a theatare BS]

https://www.freedomforuminstitute.org/about/faq/which-types-of-speech-are-not-protected-by-the-first-amendment/
Obscenity.
Fighting words.
Defamation (including libel and slander)
Child pornography.
Perjury.
Blackmail.
Incitement to imminent lawless action.
True threats.
Hate speech.

I don't think "hate speech" is on the list yet. I hope it never is.

I don't think "hate speech" is on the list yet. I hope it never is.

It sort of already is,  in the sense that a public figure openly using racist slurs is publically shamed.   Wasn't some pizza guy CEO forced out because he used the n-word?

....  was it Papa John? or something.

Well, markjo linked to a list of speech that isn't protected by the constitution. There's lots of speech that will get you publicly shamed or fired from your job.

I don't think "hate speech" is on the list yet. I hope it never is.

It could probably be argued that hate speech falls into one or more category of fighting words, defamation or obscenity.

Douglas Murray has an excellent article up https://unherd.com/2020/11/jordan-peterson-v-the-crybullies/

I've listened to several hours of Peterson's lectures, conversations and debates.  I really can't find anything all that objectionable about him that they'd want to "cancel" him. 

He refused to do people's preferred pronouns.  And his philosophy is occasionally almost interesting but usually devolves into something about lobsters and chaos.

If I were a crybully then I think I'd want to save it for someone with a more coherent toxic message like Richard Spencer.

You can order lobster merch from him! lol

Quote from: Pezevenk on November 26, 2020, 04:26:31 PM

Quote from: Space Cowgirl on November 26, 2020, 03:53:09 PM

Quote from: Pezevenk on November 26, 2020, 03:33:23 PM

Quote from: Space Cowgirl on November 26, 2020, 03:27:51 PM

Quote from: Pezevenk on November 26, 2020, 01:56:43 PM

It's very curious how angry you are at employees not supporting publishing Peterson's book.

It's very curious you think I'm angry at employees because I want to have a discussion about them trying to block publication of Jordan Peterson's book, in a thread about Jordan Peterson, on a forum that is for having discussions about this sort of thing.

So we're having that discussion and you clearly don't seem very happy about them lol

What does my happiness have to do with anything? Do I need to be happy about their behavior in order to discuss it?  You are clearly not happy that I pointed out their behavior, why is that?

Did I say you have to be happy about their behavior to discuss it? I said I find it curious that you are angry about it. I don't understand what you are acting like you don't have any opinion now. If that is even what you are doing,  because to be honest I'm not sure what the point you are making now is supposed to be, like, yeah, this is a discussion, I know, what's the point?

U mad, bro? You seem a bit angry, tbh.

You didn't answer.

Follow up question: why are you acting like a 14 year old youtube commenter all of a sudden?

I've listened to several hours of Peterson's lectures, conversations and debates.  I really can't find anything all that objectionable about him that they'd want to "cancel" him. 

He refused to do people's preferred pronouns.  And his philosophy is occasionally almost interesting but usually devolves into something about lobsters and chaos.

If I were a crybully then I think I'd want to save it for someone with a more coherent toxic message like Richard Spencer.

There is a reddit megathread some people made that mentions various reasons many people don't like him: https://www.reddit.com/r/enoughpetersonspam/comments/c2ny3g/why_do_you_hate_jordan_peterson_the_megathread/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

Also he influences young dudes into becoming complete weirdos who are permanently pissed at women. I have a friend whose ex boyfriend got into the Peterson bandwagon, he passes through many extremely weird phases. Apparently at some point he started looking into Aleister Crowley because he was trying to find something to bring order into his life that isn't exactly religion or some shit. He was doing greetings to the Sun God or whatever for a while. He also tried doing their weird carnivore diet but he was shit at committing to anything so that didn't work either. Eventually my friend just kinda got tired of his weird antics and his growing hostility to LGBT people and women so they stopped dating, although I don't understand why they didn't stop earlier, every time she talked to me about him it was always about something he did that she found stupid or made her angry lol

The difference is that Jordan Peterson influences far more people than Richard Spencer (who's kinda obsolete now anyways), but JP is the "gateway drug" for many of these people, someone who acts respectable, is a professor, talks as if he is your dad, etc.

ALSO, reminder that Peterson hand wrings about evil students protesting speakers at universities because freeze peach, but has less than nothing to say about the actual state passing anti BDS laws and generally things that are far more material and important than whatever he chose to be upset about every now and then: https://www.reddit.com/r/JordanPeterson/comments/8k65ga/jordan_peterson_characterizes_critics_of_israel/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

Goes to show what his freeze peach thing is really about.

Quote from: Space Cowgirl on November 26, 2020, 04:34:40 PM

Quote from: Pezevenk on November 26, 2020, 04:26:31 PM

Quote from: Space Cowgirl on November 26, 2020, 03:53:09 PM

Quote from: Pezevenk on November 26, 2020, 03:33:23 PM

Quote from: Space Cowgirl on November 26, 2020, 03:27:51 PM

Quote from: Pezevenk on November 26, 2020, 01:56:43 PM

It's very curious how angry you are at employees not supporting publishing Peterson's book.

It's very curious you think I'm angry at employees because I want to have a discussion about them trying to block publication of Jordan Peterson's book, in a thread about Jordan Peterson, on a forum that is for having discussions about this sort of thing.

So we're having that discussion and you clearly don't seem very happy about them lol

What does my happiness have to do with anything? Do I need to be happy about their behavior in order to discuss it?  You are clearly not happy that I pointed out their behavior, why is that?

Did I say you have to be happy about their behavior to discuss it? I said I find it curious that you are angry about it. I don't understand what you are acting like you don't have any opinion now. If that is even what you are doing,  because to be honest I'm not sure what the point you are making now is supposed to be, like, yeah, this is a discussion, I know, what's the point?

U mad, bro? You seem a bit angry, tbh.

You didn't answer.

Follow up question: why are you acting like a 14 year old youtube commenter all of a sudden?

Because you are being retarted. Your question was "why am I angry at employees..." and then you accused me of not being very happy about them. I can't possibly think talking about grievance culture is interesting without being emotional, right?  I never acted like I don't have an opinion, you made that up for some reason. You tried to turn the discussion from what we were talking about, to talking about me personally. I am curious why you did that. I don't expect you to agree with me about these things, I would appreciate it if you could just have the discussion (or not, you can scroll past my posts).

 

Quote from: Pezevenk on November 28, 2020, 05:47:14 AM

Quote from: Space Cowgirl on November 26, 2020, 04:34:40 PM

Quote from: Pezevenk on November 26, 2020, 04:26:31 PM

Quote from: Space Cowgirl on November 26, 2020, 03:53:09 PM

Quote from: Pezevenk on November 26, 2020, 03:33:23 PM

Quote from: Space Cowgirl on November 26, 2020, 03:27:51 PM

Quote from: Pezevenk on November 26, 2020, 01:56:43 PM

It's very curious how angry you are at employees not supporting publishing Peterson's book.

It's very curious you think I'm angry at employees because I want to have a discussion about them trying to block publication of Jordan Peterson's book, in a thread about Jordan Peterson, on a forum that is for having discussions about this sort of thing.

So we're having that discussion and you clearly don't seem very happy about them lol

What does my happiness have to do with anything? Do I need to be happy about their behavior in order to discuss it?  You are clearly not happy that I pointed out their behavior, why is that?

Did I say you have to be happy about their behavior to discuss it? I said I find it curious that you are angry about it. I don't understand what you are acting like you don't have any opinion now. If that is even what you are doing,  because to be honest I'm not sure what the point you are making now is supposed to be, like, yeah, this is a discussion, I know, what's the point?

U mad, bro? You seem a bit angry, tbh.

You didn't answer.

Follow up question: why are you acting like a 14 year old youtube commenter all of a sudden?

Because you are being retarted. Your question was "why am I angry at employees..." and then you accused me of not being very happy about them. I can't possibly think talking about grievance culture is interesting without being emotional, right?  I never acted like I don't have an opinion, you made that up for some reason. You tried to turn the discussion from what we were talking about, to talking about me personally. I am curious why you did that. I don't expect you to agree with me about these things, I would appreciate it if you could just have the discussion (or not, you can scroll past my posts).

You don't seem like you want to have the discussion really, unless I agreed. You just seem like you want to take issue at words and dance around the main point. So again, why are you angry unhappy outraged mildly annoyed heavily annoyed upset cranky disappointed mad disapproving (maybe?) of them not wanting to publish his book?

Apparently "grievance culture" now is not wanting to publish something you consider bad, but only when that something is reactionary. It started form banning people from social media, now it's basically employees voicing a disapproving opinion about publishing something in a particular publishing house after literally being asked if they approve of it. They don't want to publish JP's book? Sounds very woke and very evil. Join the concerned citizens club.

You are making more stuff up. I have been having a conversation with several people in this thread (who disagree with me to some extent). Sometimes I don't reply to you, because you rarely argue in good faith. For example, you have accused Jordan Peterson of playing the victim, but as far as I'm aware he hasn't publicly commented on the behavior of the employees at Penguin Random House (his daughter has tweeted about it). Another example, you accuse me of being angry (insert lots of other possible emotions), instead of disagreeing with anything specific, and offering your own opinion. Another example, you accuse me of "dancing around the main point" which is exactly what you do when you nitpick the word "ban" and accuse me of being angry. This is called projection. You project your own emotions onto me, because you can't argue why you think employees, whose job doesn't involve deciding what is or isn't published, should try to block publication of a book. Penguin Random House have published lots of books by authors I don't like, I just don't buy their books.

Grievance culture is using emotional manipulation to have people cancelled, fired, shunned, no-platformed, threatened, etc. The problem with is that sometimes a mob joins and it doesn't matter if the accusations are correct, a person can still be fired from their job. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/rabble-rouser/202011/ten-ways-tell-if-you-are-targeted-cancellation 

This is an archive of a Telegraph article about the possible merger of Penguin Random House and Simon & Schuster https://archive.is/yYFVE It goes into the attempts to have books blocked from publication a little bit.