Clearing the Muddle that is Jesus

God promised us the Messiah in Genesis.

How could god promise a messiah if you said if there wasn't a messiah, there was no god?

The purpose of the Torah was to prophesise the Messiah. The Son of David who forever rules on David's throne. Shiloh, unto whom the gathering of the people is after the sceptre departed from Judah.
The branch of righteousness, The Lion of Judah, the King promised to Adam.

If Jesus isn't the Messiah the Torah is just a book of broken promises. To me, the Torah is a book of fulfilled promises.

Jews don't believe the promise was broken, just that it hasn't been fulfilled yet. Pretty simple really. God didn't say exactly when the promise would be fulfilled.
For instance, when did God make the promise and how much time elapsed between said promise and when Jesus showed up? A few thousand years it seems like considering the King promised to Adam bit. Why'd he wait so long? And during those few thousand years post-promise/pre-jesus, had god broken his promise?

Because God promised a Messiah, starting in Genesis, then again, and again and again and again.

God promised that David would never lack a son to rule on his throne.

God promised that the sceptre should not depart from Judah until Shiloh comes.

If Jesus is not the Messiah. Objectively, these promises were broken, as a matter of physical reality.

Because God promised a Messiah, starting in Genesis, then again, and again and again and again.

And during those few thousand years post-promise/kept-promising/pre-jesus, had god broken his promise?

God promised that David would never lack a son to rule on his throne.

God promised that the sceptre should not depart from Judah until Shiloh comes.

If Jesus is not the Messiah. Objectively, these promises were broken, as a matter of physical reality.

Jesus is the Messiah, the son of god, according to Christians, objectively. We know.

He's just not to anyone else, objectively. You can tell all the other religions that you think they are wrong. But that doesn't change the fact that all the other religions do not share your belief. Objectively. It's unclear why you're having such a hard time understanding that different religions have different beliefs.

No, because David always had a son to reign on his throne, and the sceptre was yet to depart from Judah.

Objectively.

No, because David always had a son to reign on his throne, and the sceptre was yet to depart from Judah.

Objectively.

No what? Jesus is the messiah to the 1.5 billion Hindus & Buddhists? I think they might beg to differ.

No God didn't break his promises post-promise/kept-promising/pre-Jesus.

Because David always had a son to reign on his throne, and the sceptre was yet to depart from Judah.

Objectively.

No God didn't break his promises post-promise/kept-promising/pre-Jesus.

Because David always had a son to reign on his throne, and the sceptre was yet to depart from Judah.

Objectively.

So Jesus isn't the messiah to the 1.5 billion Hindus & Buddhists?

Objectively.

You keep using this word, I do not think it means what you think it means.

Quote from: disputeone on December 13, 2022, 01:33:44 AM

Objectively.

You keep using this word, I do not think it means what you think it means.

We can stand on ceremony here. But I find it boring.

Until Rome sacked Jerusalem, David always had a son to rule on his throne.

After Rome sacked Jerusalem, either David had no son to rule on his throne and that was a broken promise.

Or Jesus rules forever on David's throne.

Objectively.

Quote from: disputeone on December 13, 2022, 01:33:44 AM

No God didn't break his promises post-promise/kept-promising/pre-Jesus.

Because David always had a son to reign on his throne, and the sceptre was yet to depart from Judah.

Objectively.

So Jesus isn't the messiah to the 1.5 billion Hindus & Buddhists?

Robots, ladies and gentlemen.

Quote from: Stash on December 13, 2022, 01:35:55 AM

Quote from: disputeone on December 13, 2022, 01:33:44 AM

No God didn't break his promises post-promise/kept-promising/pre-Jesus.

Because David always had a son to reign on his throne, and the sceptre was yet to depart from Judah.

Objectively.

So Jesus isn't the messiah to the 1.5 billion Hindus & Buddhists?

Robots, ladies and gentlemen.

Cool, I’m glad we got that cleared up and agree that different religions believe in different things.

We were discussing scripture, and Messianic prophecy.

Buddhists are not Christian.
You sure got me good there.

We were discussing scripture, and Messianic prophecy.

Buddhists are not Christian.
You sure got me good there.

Neither are Jews or Muslims.

Quote from: disputeone on December 13, 2022, 01:51:21 AM

We were discussing scripture, and Messianic prophecy.

Buddhists are not Christian.
You sure got me good there.

Neither are Jews or Muslims.

Stash is on fire.

God promised that the sceptre should not depart from Judah until Shiloh comes.

I mean, technically Jacob did, but given that the word in question is Shiloh and not Mashiach/Messiah, and there's reason to think it was a scribe mis-writing 'shaluach' this is as messy as any ancient document is inevitably going to be.
If Jesus can have the ruler's staff of Judah despite never being a king on Earth, why are the descendants of Judah not afforded that same ability?

Because none of them are King.

Jesus is the King of Kings, that is one of his titles.

God doesn't play word games. David does have a son to rule on his throne forever.

In Judaism, Melech Malchei HaMelachim ("the King of Kings of Kings") came to be used as a name of God. "

Yes.

Because none of them are King.

Jesus is the King of Kings, that is one of his titles.

God doesn't play word games. David does have a son to rule on his throne forever.

And round and round in circles we go. Plus given that the last King of Judah was over five hundred years before the birth of Christ, one way or another you need the line to continue even with no throne.

Ancient texts are not as easy to interpret as you want them to be. Accepting the ambiguity doesn't make your beliefs unjustified, it means God gave you a text and it has to be read like a text.

Quote from: disputeone on December 13, 2022, 02:47:11 AM

Because none of them are King.

Jesus is the King of Kings, that is one of his titles.

God doesn't play word games. David does have a son to rule on his throne forever.

And round and round in circles we go.

I always enjoy our talks.

Quote from: Stash on December 13, 2022, 02:56:50 AM

In Judaism, Melech Malchei HaMelachim ("the King of Kings of Kings") came to be used as a name of God. "

Yes.

Correct. In Judaism, Jesus is not the king of kings. That’s a Christian thing. And considering Judaism rejects the authenticity of the New Testament, it makes sense.

Did you know that one of the Messianic prophecies was that Jesus would not be accepted by many of the Scribes and Pharisees that are the basis of Rabbinic Judaism?

Was that something you were aware of?

Did you know that one of the Messianic prophecies was that Jesus would not be accepted by many of the Scribes and Pharisees that are the basis of Rabbinic Judaism?

"We predict that people won't believe us when we claim something incredible," doesn't take God
Surely if Jesus fulfilled so many of the prophecies that it was undeniable, we'd expect a reaction from people fluent in the OT to react more like the centurion at Jesus's crucifixion, to immediately devote themselves and not to say that something doesn't line up?

Did you know that one of the Messianic prophecies was that Jesus would not be accepted by many of the Scribes and Pharisees that are the basis of Rabbinic Judaism?

Was that something you were aware of?

Sure, so what? Doesn’t change the fact that Judaism rejects the authority of the NT. Basically it’s a Christian’s saying in 1 CE to the Jews, “see we knew you would reject our guy! We even wrote that shit down a couple of centuries ago.” Jewish response, “yeah, and? So what? We still reject your guy as the messiah, so what evs.”

Jesus has to be the Messiah.
There is no one else.

They are obviously free to rebel.

Quote from: disputeone on December 13, 2022, 03:22:11 AM

Did you know that one of the Messianic prophecies was that Jesus would not be accepted by many of the Scribes and Pharisees that are the basis of Rabbinic Judaism?

Was that something you were aware of?

Sure, so what? Doesn’t change the fact that Judaism rejects the authority of the NT. Basically it’s a Christian’s saying in 1 CE to the Jews.

Jesus was a Jewish Rabbi.
All of the original Christians were Jews that accepted their Messiah.

Jesus has to be the Messiah.

Yeah, to Christians. Not to anyone else.

Do you not understand that there are differences between religions, even Abrahamic ones?

How do you not know this?

Then the Jews have no Messiah and no God. God has objectively abandoned them.

Unless Jesus is the Messiah.

We are talking about scripture, specifically the scripture common to both Judaism and Christianity, that is to say most of it.

I accept different religions believe different things.

I was hoping someone would turn you off. That was really embarrassing for everyone before.

Then the Jews have no Messiah and no God. God has objectively abandoned them.

If you say so.

But I guess that means, according to you, there was no god before Jesus popped out of Mary's vagina. For thousands of years, No messiah=No god.

Oh Stash.
Look at what you are reduced to.

Oh Stash.
Look at what you are reduced to.

Look at yourself. You're the one trying to tell an entire faith that they have no god based upon poor logic. You claim that a religion can't have a god without a messiah. Your words, not mine. That would mean prior to a messiah, you can't have a god. You may want to think through that a bit.

You basically want to say that other religions are wrong for not accepting Jesus as the messiah, son of god. Cool, good for you. That's pretty much what religions do. And you are no different than yasoooo - Just going on and on about how your religion is correct and all others are incorrect.

Then when someone challenges your notions, you turn into a 14 year old who lacks nuance and comprehension of anything outside of a black and white world.

Head on over to your local synagogue and mosque and tell everyone how they are incorrect. I'm sure they would be more than welcoming to hear what you have to say.