Clearing the Muddle that is Jesus

You're a robot.

Muslims believe in Jesus, Stash.
Ask Wise or even Yasoo.

Either Jesus is the Jewish Messiah or God lied to Adam. Your decision to make.

Jesus is the Jewish Messiah.
There is no one else.

Muslims believe Jesus will return to defeat the anti-christ and unite all believers in the one true faith. So he's very important in Islam.

As far as the return, kinda, but in a subordinate role...And he converts to Islam...

The Subordinate Of The Mahdi
At this time, Jesus descends to meet the army of the Mahdi which will be preparing for battle.  It will be just before the time of prayer.

Muslims will still be preparing themselves for the battle drawing up the ranks.  Certainly, the time of prayer shall come and then Jesus, son of Mary would descend. 2

Based on the relevant Hadith, Islamic scholars seem to be in universal agreement that the Mahdi will ask Jesus to lead the prayers.  Jesus will then refuse this request and will defer instead to the Mahdi to lead the prayer.

The Messenger of Allah said: A section of my people will not cease fighting for the truth and will prevail until the Day of resurrection.  He said: Jesus son of Mary would then descend and their [Muslims’] commander [the Mahdi] would invite him to come and lead them in prayer, but he would say: No, some amongst you are commanders over some. 3

The important element here that needs to be stressed is that Jesus will then pray behind the Mahdi as a direct statement regarding Jesus’ inferiority of rank to the Mahdi.

Jesus Christ will decline the offer and invitation of Imam Mahdi to come and lead the Muslims in prayer, and say his prayer behind Imam Mahdi. 4

Jesus (peace be upon him) will come and will perform the obligatory prayers behind the Mahdi and follow him. 5

(Jesus) will be following the Mahdi, the master of the time, and that is why he will be offering his prayers behind him. 6

 
Jesus The Faithful Muslim

After Jesus returns, in keeping with his identity as a faithful Muslim, he will perform the ritual pilgrimage to Mecca called hajj:

The Prophet said: Verily Isa ibn Maryam shall descend as an equitable judge and fair ruler.  He shall tread his path on the way to hajj (pilgrimage) and come to my grave to greet me, and I shall certainly answer him! 7

Jesus Will Institute Islamic Law

While the Mahdi, as the Caliph (vice-regent) and Imam (leader) of the Muslims is clearly seen as being a superior to Jesus, Jesus is still said to be a leader of the Muslim Community.  According to the Islamic traditions, Jesus’ primary purpose will be to oversee the institution and the enforcement of the Islamic Shariah law all over the world.

Ibn Qayyim mentioned in Manar al-munif that the leader… is the Mahdi who will request Jesus to lead the Muslims in prayer.  Jesus will remain on the earth, not as a prophet, but as one of the Community (ummah) of Prophet Muhammad.  Muslims will follow him as their leader.  According to Shalabi, the Mahdi will lead the Muslims in prayer, and Jesus will rule the Muslims according to the Divine Law (Shari’ah). 8

Jesus, the son of Mary will descend and will lead them judging amongst them according to the holy Quran and the Sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad. 9

Jesus: The Greatest Muslim Evangelist

Islamic tradition teaches that because Jesus will declare himself to be a Muslim, he will lead many Christians to convert to Islam.  Regarding those who do not convert to Islam, the Quran states that Jesus will be a witness against them on the Day of Judgment:

There is not one of the People of the Scripture (Christians and Jews) but will believe in him before his death, and on the Day of Resurrection he will be a witness against them.  (Surah 4:159)


Muslims and Jews DO NOT believe that Jesus is the son of god. Sorry. You may wish otherwise, but unfortunately the facts say your wish is not granted.

Tell us more about Jesus "converting" Stash. Also subordinate to whom?

Jesus IS.
He appears multiple times in the Old Testament, as the angel of the Lord, did you know that?

Tell us more about Jesus "converting" Stash. Also subordinate to whom?

It ain't me, read the the Muslim good book.

According to the Quran, which, apparently, is the word of god, Jesus will then pray behind the Mahdi as a direct statement regarding Jesus’ inferiority of rank to the Mahdi.

Jesus IS.

Yes, according to 2.3 billion of us. Not to the other 5.7 billion of us.

He appears multiple times in the Old Testament, as the angel of the Lord, did you know that?

Yes, quite clear he was viewed as an angel of the lord along with a shit-ton of other angels of the lord. But to Muslims & Jews, not the SON of the lord. Get it?

Are you actually claiming that Jews & Muslims believe that Jesus is the SON of god?

Was Jesus showing inferiority when he was baptised by John?
No, he was just following the traditions set down.

You're a robot, you are not a Christian. You're a self described atheist. You often forget humans have a memory.

The Angel of The Lord speaks for God, like he is God and describes himself as God multiple times in the Old Testament.
Jesus is the Angel of The Lord.

I am claiming that Jesus means something to just about everyone on the planet. That was my original claim.

You're a robot.

An alleged God had his son killed thousands of years ago. And that means nothing to me and 6 billion other people on the planet.

Wrong.

You'd have to travel very far to find someone now who that means nothing to. You should be more careful with your words.

You could have said, over six billion people are not Christian, sure. Far less than two billion have given their life to Christ.

Jesus means something to nearly everyone. He is the most famous person in the history of history.

He means nothing to you because you're a robot and the thinking you are capable of is done in binary.

Was Jesus showing inferiority when he was baptised by John?
No, he was just following the traditions set down.

You're a robot, you are not a Christian. You're a self described atheist. You often forget humans have a memory.

The Angel of The Lord speaks for God, like he is God and describes himself as God multiple times in the Old Testament.
Jesus is the Angel of The Lord.

I am claiming that Jesus means something to just about everyone on the planet. That was my original claim.

You're a robot.

Cool claim, good luck with that. Because 5.7 billion people believe Jesus was not the son of god. Abrahamic religions = 2.3B + 1.9B + 14M = 4.1 billion. That means that Jesus doesn't mean jack shit, let alone son of, to about 3.9 billion of us.

So you were never claiming that Jews & Muslims believe that Jesus is the SON of god?

Jesus means something to nearly everyone on earth. You're right to say there are only 2 billion Christians, honestly, there are less.

What's your point?
You can't go from
"There are only 2 billion Christians."
To
"Jesus doesn't mean jackshit."

It's a huge logical jump. How did you come to that in binary?

Why do you call me an anti-semite while you are being anti-christian?

Jesus means something to nearly everyone on earth. You're right to say there are only 2 billion Christians, honestly, there are less.

What's your point?
You can't go from
"There are only 2 billion Christians."
To
"Jesus doesn't mean jackshit."

It's a huge logical jump. How did you come to that in binary?

Why do you call me an anti-semite while you are being anti-christian?

So you were never claiming that Jews & Muslims believe that Jesus is the SON of god?

Can you read?

I don't think you read like I read.
This is all so interesting.
Apparently no one breaks non disclosure agreements but this is very much illegal, what you're doing with the bots here.

Can you read?

I don't think you read like I read.
This is all so interesting.
Apparently no one breaks non disclosure agreements but this is very much illegal, what you're doing with the bots here.

Got it, you agree that Jews & Muslims believe that Jesus is NOT the SON of god. Thanks for clarifying.

What will you do with them, Crouton?
Can I have Stash as a personal assistant?

Quote from: disputeone on December 11, 2022, 11:48:40 PM

Can you read?

I don't think you read like I read.
This is all so interesting.
Apparently no one breaks non disclosure agreements but this is very much illegal, what you're doing with the bots here.

Got it, you agree that Jews & Muslims believe that Jesus is NOT the SON of god. Thanks for clarifying.

As a Muslim, I can openly tell you that Jesus spoke as God's own voice, not God's son. Misunderstanding of Muslims is not the fault of Islam.

And ˹remember˺ the one who guarded her chastity, so We breathed into her through Our angel, ˹Gabriel,˺1 making her and her son a sign for all peoples. SOURCE: https://quran.com/21

ORIGINAL: وَٱلَّتِىٓ أَحْصَنَتْ فَرْجَهَا فَنَفَخْنَا فِيهَا مِن رُّوحِنَا وَجَعَلْنَـٰهَا وَٱبْنَهَآ ءَايَةًۭ لِّلْعَـٰلَمِينَ

Velletî ahsanet fercehâ fenefaḣnâ fîhâ min rûhinâ vece’alnâhâ vebnehâ âyeten lil’âlemîn(e)

Velletî: And she who

ahsanet: guarded

fercehâ: her chastity

fenefaḣnâ: so We Breathed

fîhâ: into her

min: of

rûhinâ: Our Spirit

vece’alnâhâ: And We made her

vebnehâ: and her son

âyeten: a sign, (a part may be true)

lil’âlemîn: for the worlds.

Why do you think there is a falsification of "We blew into Mary from our spirit through Gabriel" instead of God's word "We blew into her from our spirit "?

Let me tell you, for Muslims to misunderstand the issue.

There are also verses that say that Jesus was not the son of God. Islam is against this thesis as a doctrine, but we can find what Jesus really is between the lines in the verses.

What's your point?
You can't go from
"There are only 2 billion Christians."
To
"Jesus doesn't mean jackshit."

'Mean' is a word with a lot of wiggle-room. For that matter, so is 'Jesus.' Is the Jesus that a Christian worships the same as the 'Wildly exaggerated tales co-opted by some assholes' that many atheists perceive? Would you even want them to be the same?
Jesus is the most famous person in history, only because he's been split into facets and there's a hundred distinct iterations of the guy, all with different natures. There's a reason this post began by calling him a 'muddle.'

(Also, cool off the 'Jesus is the Jewish Messiah.' That's not a claim a Christian gets to make - let's ask someone Jewish- oh wait, they'd hold he lacks the requisite properties, whoops).

Jesus is the Jewish Messiah.
Or God broke his promise to Adam, to Jacob and to David.

There is no other interpretation.

Jesus IS.

Jesus is the Jewish Messiah.

Incorrect. As Jane pointed out there are criteria in Judaism as to what would constitute the Messiah. According to Judaism, that criteria has not been fulfilled, not during Jesus' time nor ever so far.

These specific criteria are as follows:

1) He must be Jewish. (Deuteronomy. 17:15, Numbers 24:17)
2) He must be a member of the tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10) and a direct male descendant of King David (I Chronicles 17:11, Psalms 89:29-38, Jeremiah 33:17, II Samuel 7:12-16) and King Solomon. (I Chronicles 22:10, II Chronicles 7:18)
3) He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel. (Isaiah 27:12-13, Isaiah 11:12)
4) He must rebuild the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. (Micah 4:1)
5) He must bring world peace. (Isaiah 2:4, Isaiah 11:6, Micah 4:3)
6) He must influence the entire world to acknowledge and serve one G-d. (Isaiah 11:9, Isaiah 40:5, Zephaniah 3:9)

To summarize, we cannot know that someone is the Messiah until he fulfills all of the above criteria.

The Christian understanding of the Messiah and Jesus differs greatly from the Jewish biblical view. These differences developed as a result of the Church’s influence during the time of the Emperor Constantine* and the Council of Nicaea that issued the Nicene Creed in 325 CE.

Or God broke his promise to Adam, to Jacob and to David.

There is no other interpretation.

Jesus IS.

Ummm, yes there is another interpretation. The one that Judaism holds which is that Jesus was not the Messiah nor the son of god. Don't take my word for it, go ask any random rabbi. It's unclear why you are making up this stuff when pretty much everyone knows you're wrong and it's extremely well documented.

Perhaps you should join up with jewsforjesus.org. It's been around since the early 70's, started by a bunch of hippies in San Francisco. You'd love it.

Quote from: disputeone on December 11, 2022, 11:45:40 PM

What's your point?
You can't go from
"There are only 2 billion Christians."
To
"Jesus doesn't mean jackshit."

'Mean' is a word with a lot of wiggle-room. For that matter, so is 'Jesus.' Is the Jesus that a Christian worships the same as the 'Wildly exaggerated tales co-opted by some assholes' that many atheists perceive? Would you even want them to be the same?
Jesus is the most famous person in history, only because he's been split into facets and there's a hundred distinct iterations of the guy, all with different natures. There's a reason this post began by calling him a 'muddle.'

(Also, cool off the 'Jesus is the Jewish Messiah.' That's not a claim a Christian gets to make - let's ask someone Jewish- oh wait, they'd hold he lacks the requisite properties, whoops).

But he is.

Whether Jews accept him as such is an irrelevant point.

This is what Judaism says in its own prophecies.

Afterward he brought me to the gate, even the gate that looketh toward the east: And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east: and his voice was like a noise of many waters: and the earth shined with his glory. And it was according to the appearance of the vision which I saw, even according to the vision that I saw when I came to destroy the city: and the visions were like the vision that I saw by the river Chebar; and I fell upon my face. And the glory of the LORD came into the house by the way of the gate whose prospect is toward the east.

Zechariah likewise predicts

Rejoice greatly, daughter of Zion; Raise a shout, daughter of Jerusalem! Lo, your king is coming to you. He is victorious, triumphant, Yet poor (humble), riding on an ass, on a donkey foaled by a she-ass

There's another prophecy too...

Then the man brought me back to the outer gate of the sanctuary, the one facing east,  and it was shut. 2 The Lord said to me, “This gate is to remain shut. It must not be opened; no one may enter through it.  It is to remain shut because the Lord, the God of Israel, has entered through it. 3 The prince himself is the only one who may sit inside the gateway to eat in the presence  of the Lord. He is to enter by way of the portico of the gateway and go out the same way.

This prophecy has also been fulfilled, and remains fulfilled. The Jews hope to open the gates so their "their Messiah" can come in and enter the gates. But true to prophecy, their enemies have made sure this gate is closed.

I can only conclude that this idea that Messiah would drive their enemies away was a human interpretation. Ditto for rebuilding the temple, unless you understand that Herod's temple was a monstrous false temple built by human hands, and the Temple that Jesus rebuilt was the Temple of worship in spirit and in truth.
Not one stone of the temple (not the wall) remains. This prophecy was also true.

Jesus is the Messiah. No, God's not gonna send another. He did however send someone who comes in his own name (Muhammad), and many of them accepted him. He used Muhammad and his followers to close the very gates ordered by prophecy.

"Oh but (excuses as to why Jesus isn't the Messiah)," yes, but he is. Suck it up. You can accept him or reject him, if you want, but none of those excuses are real.

"Oh but (excuses as to why Jesus isn't the Messiah)," yes, but he is. Suck it up. You can accept him or reject him, if you want, but none of those excuses are real.

Not according to Judaism and the other 5.7 billion people on the planet. You can believe that he was and the son of god. But that doesn't mean anyone else has to. And quite a few don't.

It's pretty clear Luke and Matthew retconned the shit out of the story of Jesus to fit the old prophecies. 

Starting with the ridiculous story of a Roman census that meant Mary and Joseph had to travel to Bethlehem.    People complain when Marvel pulls this shit, but these guys were doing it 2000 years ago. 

So God broke his promise to Adam, to Jacob and to David.

There is no other interpretation.

Very good.

So God broke his promise to Adam, to Jacob and to David.

There is no other interpretation.

Very good.

Or hasn't fulfilled it yet - plenty of Jews seem very happy with that, and some even predict a date in a couple of centuries so hey - or we could be petty and question source accuracy and whether that promise was made, but hey.

Jesus is the Christian Messiah. But for two thousand years, he's been pretty much the opposite of what people expected of the Jewish Messiah.

The prophecies had time limits.

Rome and Judah have fallen, the sceptre has departed from Judah.

Shiloh has come.
Jesus is the Messiah.
He is not the Christian Messiah he is THE Messiah promised to David.

The Son of David that rules forever on Davids throne.

Either it is Jesus, or David lacks a man to sit on his throne.

Either Jesus is the Messiah, or God broke his promises.

The prophecies had time limits.

Rome and Judea have fallen, the sceptre has departed from Judah.

Shiloh has come.
Jesus is the Messiah.
He is not the Christian Messiah he is THE Messiah promised to David.

Not according to Jews and Muslims. According to those religions, a promise was made, but the guy hasn't shown up yet. So god hasn't broken any promises, he just hasn't come through yet. And I'm pretty sure his "promise" wasn't time-bound.

Specifically for Muslims, a Jesus will show up, but will be subordinate, definitely not the son of god, and will convert to Islam.

So there you have it. If you want to believe Jesus is the son of god, have at it. However, just for the record. 5.7 billion people do not share your belief. If you want to make a claim that Jews do believe Jesus is the son of god, well, then, even though you would be wrong, as very well evidenced, we can take Jews out of the 5.7 billion number, if that would make you go to a happy place.

There are 15 million Jews in the world. So that leaves us with 5.685 billion people don't believe Jesus is the son of god. Feel better?

Does David lack a man to sit on his throne?

Did God lie to David?

Or is Jesus the Messiah?

There's only two options.

Does David lack a man to sit on his throne?

What do you think David's throne is?

>What do words mean?

I enjoyed our talk Jane.

>What do words mean?

I enjoyed out talk Jane.

Are you talking the actual Kingship of Israel - not Gentiles, and an actual Kingship as opposed to carpentry - which Jesus never filled? A throne in heaven, which David presumably did not fill if we're talking Trinity?
Or just a nebulous notion of 'Jesus was the stepson of someone in David's line, something something no actual throne filled?'

If I ask for a definition, it's because it seems like you're getting away wth a very vague term. If I'm wrong, I'll fess up, but kinda need more info to determine that.

The King of Kings.

David either lacks a man to sit on his throne and God broke his promise, or Jesus is the Messiah.

The King of Kings.

Yes, that clears up the ambiguous definition, full marks.

As I said.

I enjoyed our talk.