Sea and air pressure

Quote from: Themightykabool on September 28, 2020, 03:15:41 PM

Quote from: Stash on September 28, 2020, 01:52:51 PM

Quote from: Themightykabool on September 28, 2020, 11:52:32 AM

Redraw that picture wih the frame of reference as the box.
Nothing changes as far as box people and as far as inside-box air can see.
Neither has contact with the outside-box world.
So
Then
Why down?

That would be more like this:

Haha perfect.
Ok sceppy.
Add some lines showing the air pushes on the where the man is in picture 3 and 4.

Take a look at the box  which is angled already in the stack. That's a major key.
I've asked you all, time and time and time again to understand the stacking system.

It would help if you could draw the stacked lines in and out of box THREE and FOUR showing where the man is inside the box.

Remeber
The boxes are air tight.

Quote from: sceptimatic on September 28, 2020, 10:50:30 PM

Quote from: Stash on September 28, 2020, 10:09:16 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on September 28, 2020, 08:19:36 AM

Quote from: Stash on September 27, 2020, 11:22:15 PM

In JJA's boxed teeter totter, as a heavy person moves from one side over the fulcrum leaving the lighter person on the starting side and ends at the other side, heavy guy lowers, light guy raises, the outside the box atmosphere is completely undisturbed. It has no idea what has occurred inside the box. How would it?
And inside the box, it's not under any pressure, a heavy guy moving from one side to the other there's no displacement that occurs that is equal and opposite enough to lower him and raise the other.

Air is still being displaced inside the rectangular box.
This displaces atmosphere outside of it by changing the expansion of it on one side and contraction at the other when the person moves their dense mass.

The atmosphere outside the box has no idea what's going on inside the box. And one part of the box is not expanding and the other side contracting from any sort of displacement inside the box. That's like saying that by sticking my fist in a pool of water and moving it 5' feet somehow displaces the water so that it rises on one side of the pool and lowers on the other. That does not happen. How would the box expand in one place and contract in another?




In either scenario, the outside atmosphere is agnostic to what's going on inside the box. And the box is not expanding or contracting. And there is only the atmosphere inside the box which is not nearly enough to cause any sort of displacement effect. Something else is causing the teeter totter to tilt due to the fat guy's weight. I'm afraid DenPressure cannot address this case study.

Before a person gets into the box, that person displaces his own dense mass of that atmosphere.
The box is at the same pressure as outside.
Once you take out the person from the atmosphere and put him inside the box, you displace the amount of air inside the box by the dense mass of the person.
That air has been pushed outside and is now added to the external pressure upon the box with that dense mass inside, in the stack and it's important to understand the stack.

The stack is now unbalanced by angle of the box due to that change.
The box feels the pressure difference in that stacking system.

This is why it gets pushed down as it pushes into the stack, leaving it angled in a higher pressure...as minimal as it may appear.

There's no "angle of the box" in #3 & #4.The box has no angle and the box does't move to create any angle. The box remains stationary. So I don't know what you are referring to and the outside atmosphere has no knowledge about what is going on with the 'stacks' inside the box. Can you address panels #3 & #4 where the box is around the entire set-up not just around the fat guy and skinny guy as in panels #1 & #2?

In 3 and 4 you've just recreated one internal air pressure and dense mass (see saw and people) within it.
You're moving the air and replacing it with the mass.

Quote from: sceptimatic on September 28, 2020, 10:52:32 PM

Quote from: JackBlack on September 28, 2020, 02:18:41 PM

Quote from: sceptimatic on September 27, 2020, 10:33:46 PM

The air inside the box doesn't push the box down.

Which means any motion inside is irreverent, as displacing air inside the box is irrelevant.
You have the outside air pushing it down, and thus it is only its displacement which matters.

It's irrelevant to you because you're not looking at it from my side.

No, it is irrelevant because I am looking at it using logic, something you seem to avoid at all costs.

The motion of the air inside cannot cause the box to tilt, as it would have to push off the box.

You need to explain how the air outside the box magically knows where the mass is inside the box to push the box appropriately.

Pay more attention to what's been said.

Quote from: sceptimatic on September 28, 2020, 10:54:25 PM

Quote from: Themightykabool on September 28, 2020, 03:15:41 PM

Quote from: Stash on September 28, 2020, 01:52:51 PM

Quote from: Themightykabool on September 28, 2020, 11:52:32 AM

Redraw that picture wih the frame of reference as the box.
Nothing changes as far as box people and as far as inside-box air can see.
Neither has contact with the outside-box world.
So
Then
Why down?

That would be more like this:

Haha perfect.
Ok sceppy.
Add some lines showing the air pushes on the where the man is in picture 3 and 4.

Take a look at the box  which is angled already in the stack. That's a major key.
I've asked you all, time and time and time again to understand the stacking system.

It would help if you could draw the stacked lines in and out of box THREE and FOUR showing where the man is inside the box.

Remeber
The boxes are air tight.

The boxes are air tight?
Explain all this so I know what you're getting at.

Quote from: Stash on September 29, 2020, 12:21:47 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on September 28, 2020, 10:50:30 PM

Quote from: Stash on September 28, 2020, 10:09:16 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on September 28, 2020, 08:19:36 AM

Quote from: Stash on September 27, 2020, 11:22:15 PM

In JJA's boxed teeter totter, as a heavy person moves from one side over the fulcrum leaving the lighter person on the starting side and ends at the other side, heavy guy lowers, light guy raises, the outside the box atmosphere is completely undisturbed. It has no idea what has occurred inside the box. How would it?
And inside the box, it's not under any pressure, a heavy guy moving from one side to the other there's no displacement that occurs that is equal and opposite enough to lower him and raise the other.

Air is still being displaced inside the rectangular box.
This displaces atmosphere outside of it by changing the expansion of it on one side and contraction at the other when the person moves their dense mass.

The atmosphere outside the box has no idea what's going on inside the box. And one part of the box is not expanding and the other side contracting from any sort of displacement inside the box. That's like saying that by sticking my fist in a pool of water and moving it 5' feet somehow displaces the water so that it rises on one side of the pool and lowers on the other. That does not happen. How would the box expand in one place and contract in another?




In either scenario, the outside atmosphere is agnostic to what's going on inside the box. And the box is not expanding or contracting. And there is only the atmosphere inside the box which is not nearly enough to cause any sort of displacement effect. Something else is causing the teeter totter to tilt due to the fat guy's weight. I'm afraid DenPressure cannot address this case study.

Before a person gets into the box, that person displaces his own dense mass of that atmosphere.
The box is at the same pressure as outside.
Once you take out the person from the atmosphere and put him inside the box, you displace the amount of air inside the box by the dense mass of the person.
That air has been pushed outside and is now added to the external pressure upon the box with that dense mass inside, in the stack and it's important to understand the stack.

The stack is now unbalanced by angle of the box due to that change.
The box feels the pressure difference in that stacking system.

This is why it gets pushed down as it pushes into the stack, leaving it angled in a higher pressure...as minimal as it may appear.

There's no "angle of the box" in #3 & #4.The box has no angle and the box does't move to create any angle. The box remains stationary. So I don't know what you are referring to and the outside atmosphere has no knowledge about what is going on with the 'stacks' inside the box. Can you address panels #3 & #4 where the box is around the entire set-up not just around the fat guy and skinny guy as in panels #1 & #2?

In 3 and 4 you've just recreated one internal air pressure and dense mass (see saw and people) within it.
You're moving the air and replacing it with the mass.

So now you’re saying outside atmosphere has no impact on what’s going on inside the box? And the box isn’t expanding some places and contracting in others?

Inside the box the fat guy moves over, the see saw goes down under his weight and the skinny guy rises up. You’re saying that the fat guy is doing what to the air in box? It’s all one internal pressure in the box. That doesn’t change. It’s just the fat guy moving to the other side of the plank. How could him just moving cause the small amount of air in the box to cause that massive of a reaction? It’s certainly not equal like you claim.

I’m afraid your theory does not even come close to passing the seesaw in a box test.

Quote from: JackBlack on September 29, 2020, 01:26:15 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on September 28, 2020, 10:52:32 PM

Quote from: JackBlack on September 28, 2020, 02:18:41 PM

Quote from: sceptimatic on September 27, 2020, 10:33:46 PM

The air inside the box doesn't push the box down.

Which means any motion inside is irreverent, as displacing air inside the box is irrelevant.
You have the outside air pushing it down, and thus it is only its displacement which matters.

It's irrelevant to you because you're not looking at it from my side.

No, it is irrelevant because I am looking at it using logic, something you seem to avoid at all costs.

The motion of the air inside cannot cause the box to tilt, as it would have to push off the box.

You need to explain how the air outside the box magically knows where the mass is inside the box to push the box appropriately.

Pay more attention to what's been said.

I have. Perhaps you should try doing so and actually respond to the issues.
Once more, the air moving around in the box cannot make the box move. Only the air outside the box would be able to.
So how does the air outside the box magically know where the mass is inside the box to cause it to move?

If you like, we can go one step further and use a sealed chamber which has been evacuated so there is basically no air in there.


And I see still no response to the extremely simple questions which destroy your model, the one on the very subject you claimed you would stick to until I "understand".
So does that mean I do understand and your model is pure garbage?

If not, why do you keep avoiding it?
Once more, why does the pressure gauge react to the new mass, but not the scale?
Answer without a contradiction.

so now you’re saying outside atmosphere has no impact on what’s going on inside the box? And the box isn’t expanding some places and contracting in others?

Internal and external atmosphere is always present and acting. Always. There is a never a time when they do not act together. Equal and opposite reaction to action.

Referefence this part so you don't need to ask this and we can maybe get somewhere.

what[/i] to the air in box? It’s all one internal pressure in the box. That doesn’t change.

Let's deal with one thing at a time because you are confusing yourself by using a see saw internally and one externally.
I'll address both but first we need to address one...so use one diagram at a time and we will deal with that until you at least know my explanation.
Reference that explanation when required to save you asking it and confusing yourself.
Do so with every other and you have something to work on.

Altering everything is only going to confuse you.

It’s just the fat guy moving to the other side of the plank. How could him just moving cause the small amount of air in the box to cause that massive of a reaction? It’s certainly not equal like you claim.

Are we  dealing with the man on a see saw inside a flat to ground box?
Pick a specific one to argue and we'll go with that.

I’m afraid your theory does not even come close to passing the seesaw in a box test.

It does.
It may not look it to you but it works well for me.
Once you understand it (which is easy from my side) you'll maybe see where I'm coming from. You may not accept it....but.....well....that's your decision.

Once more, why does the pressure gauge react to the new mass, but not the scale?
Answer without a contradiction.

Show me what you want me to answer.

Once more, the air moving around in the box cannot make the box move.

Yes it can and it does.

Only the air outside the box would be able to.
So how does the air outside the box magically know where the mass is inside the box to cause it to move?

It doesn't magically know. It's there all of the time. Equal and opposite reaction to action.

If you like, we can go one step further and use a sealed chamber which has been evacuated so there is basically no air in there.

A sealed chamber which has been evacuated, still has air pressure inside of it but the main air pressure has been allowed out of it by use of a pump to push away external atmosphere from it to allow expansion...creating that lower pressure.
This pressure is no added to the external pressure on that box.
So where do you want to go from this point?

And I see still no response to the extremely simple questions which destroy your model, the one on the very subject you claimed you would stick to until I "understand".

Clearly you didn't stick to it.

Internal and external atmosphere is always present and acting. Always. There is a never a time when they do not act together.

Sure there is, when you separate the 2 with a solid barrier.
We can see this in your previous example with the lid of the container popping off. With that, the external atmosphere is acting to hold the lid on, while the internal atmosphere acts against that to pop the lid off.

It does.
It may not look it to you but it works well for me.

No, it doesn't.
You might think it works, but it continually fails with you unable to provide explanations to even simple problems and repeatedly avoiding simple questions.
It is clear that our understanding is not the issue, it is your model which is.
If it was actually our understanding, you would be explaining more, not evading.

Quote from: JackBlack on September 30, 2020, 12:45:21 AM

Once more, why does the pressure gauge react to the new mass, but not the scale?
Answer without a contradiction.

Show me what you want me to answer.

I already have, repeatedly, including right there.
How about you stop avoiding it and actually provide an answer.

Tell me why when a 1 kg weight is introduced to the air-tight container discussed before, that it doesn't add an extra 1 kg to the scale, but it does significant affect

Quote from: JackBlack on September 30, 2020, 12:45:21 AM

Once more, the air moving around in the box cannot make the box move.

Yes it can and it does.

Again, stop just asserting does and explain how.
And no, appealing to "equal and opposite reaction" IS NOT AN ANSWER!
The air outside the container is not involved with the person moving.
The equal and opposite reaction you are looking for is the person moving to one side of the container while some of the air inside moves to the other.
In addition, if it was in free space, the container would also move slightly, but as it is on Earth, the person walking along the container would apply a force to the container and Earth, still not displacing the air outside.

The air outside the container is not involved in this equal and opposite reaction.
If you really think it is draw a diagram showing the action and reaction and why it needs to involve the air outside the container.

A sealed chamber which has been evacuated, still has air pressure inside of it but the main air pressure has been allowed out of it by use of a pump to push away external atmosphere from it to allow expansion...creating that lower pressure.
This pressure is no added to the external pressure on that box.
So where do you want to go from this point?

The point is there is effectively no air inside the container to be moved around by the person. So once more, how does the person moving in the container magically effect the air outside to cause the container to tip?

And I will continue to call it magic until you actually provide an explanation.

Clearly you didn't stick to it.

I never agreed to do so. But I did stick to it, until you repeatedly ignored the issue and starting discussing other things your model fails to explain.

Why do you think I keep bringing it up, while you keep avoiding it?

Quote from: Stash on September 29, 2020, 11:42:20 PM

so now you’re saying outside atmosphere has no impact on what’s going on inside the box? And the box isn’t expanding some places and contracting in others?

Internal and external atmosphere is always present and acting. Always. There is a never a time when they do not act together. Equal and opposite reaction to action.

Referefence this part so you don't need to ask this and we can maybe get somewhere.

Quote from: Stash)
Inside the box the fat guy moves over, the see saw goes down under his weight and the skinny guy rises up. You’re saying that the fat guy is doing [i

what[/i] to the air in box? It’s all one internal pressure in the box. That doesn’t change.

Let's deal with one thing at a time because you are confusing yourself by using a see saw internally and one externally.
I'll address both but first we need to address one...so use one diagram at a time and we will deal with that until you at least know my explanation.
Reference that explanation when required to save you asking it and confusing yourself.
Do so with every other and you have something to work on.

Altering everything is only going to confuse you.

Quote from: Stash

It’s just the fat guy moving to the other side of the plank. How could him just moving cause the small amount of air in the box to cause that massive of a reaction? It’s certainly not equal like you claim.

Are we  dealing with the man on a see saw inside a flat to ground box?
Pick a specific one to argue and we'll go with that.

Quote from: Stash

I’m afraid your theory does not even come close to passing the seesaw in a box test.

It does.
It may not look it to you but it works well for me.
Once you understand it (which is easy from my side) you'll maybe see where I'm coming from. You may not accept it....but.....well....that's your decision.

I've been clear in other posts that I've been asking about panels 3&4. That's what we are talking about. Forget about 1&2 for now.

In 3&4 what exactly is happening externally and internally to the box? What is happening to the box itself, if anything. The main issue is that the external atmosphere has no idea what is happening inside the box.

possibly we've reached a point in sceppy's limit.

let's try another direction.
earlier when we discussed bouyancy i had a feeling that sceppy believes that falling down is a sort of "reverse buoyancy"?
please confirm.
because the way actual bouyancy works is the minute pressure difference in elevation.


https://images.app.goo.gl/2ZakxqvDx4vrnpvn7

Quote from: sceptimatic on September 30, 2020, 10:26:45 PM

Internal and external atmosphere is always present and acting. Always. There is a never a time when they do not act together.

Sure there is, when you separate the 2 with a solid barrier.
We can see this in your previous example with the lid of the container popping off. With that, the external atmosphere is acting to hold the lid on, while the internal atmosphere acts against that to pop the lid off.

You've just answered your own query.
The only issue you have now is in trying to use more solid barriers, as if there's no correlation between internal and external pressures.
An iron train wheel tyre should help you.

Quote from: JackBlack on October 01, 2020, 01:27:42 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on September 30, 2020, 10:26:45 PM

Internal and external atmosphere is always present and acting. Always. There is a never a time when they do not act together.

Sure there is, when you separate the 2 with a solid barrier.
We can see this in your previous example with the lid of the container popping off. With that, the external atmosphere is acting to hold the lid on, while the internal atmosphere acts against that to pop the lid off.

You've just answered your own query.
The only issue you have now is in trying to use more solid barriers, as if there's no correlation between internal and external pressures.
An iron train wheel tyre should help you.

No, I have explained why your claim is wrong. That isn't answering my query.

We aren't talking about changing the pressure of the container, or even heating it up. We are talking about an object inside the container moving.
You need to explain how this is magically communicated to the air outside.

Edit: My bad, forgot the question/issue you keep avoiding:
Tell me why when a 1 kg weight is introduced to the air-tight container discussed before, that it doesn't add an extra 1 kg to the scale, but it does significantly affect the pressure gauge

I've been clear in other posts that I've been asking about panels 3&4. That's what we are talking about. Forget about 1&2 for now.

In 3&4 what exactly is happening externally and internally to the box? What is happening to the box itself, if anything. The main issue is that the external atmosphere has no idea what is happening inside the box.

Ok, 3 and 4 are a rectangular box sat of a foundation (ground).
Atmospheric pressure is pushing down on that box.

The see saw inside the box with the two bodies on are all displacing the air inside that box by their own dense masses.

Ok, so inside and outside are sealed by the thickness of the box that is also displacing that amount of atmosphere.
As it stands inside that box there is only breathing (somehow) That breathing alone is moving air about and creating a slosh effect.
Their movement also creates a slosh effect.
The slosh effect impacts everything inside and creates a differential to the outside. It may seem minimal to you but it's there and enough to change the entire set up....meaning, changing movement of dense mass.
This is massively due to a stacking system both inside and out.

The see saw gets angled in the internal stack by the change in mass movement by both parties. One with more atmospheric displacement than the other.

Stick with this and we can maybe inch away at it.
Don't hamper yourself.

possibly we've reached a point in sceppy's limit.

let's try another direction.
earlier when we discussed bouyancy i had a feeling that sceppy believes that falling down is a sort of "reverse buoyancy"?
please confirm.
because the way actual bouyancy works is the minute pressure difference in elevation.


https://images.app.goo.gl/2ZakxqvDx4vrnpvn7

Buoyancy works when dense resistance n the stack below cannot be overcome by the dense mass pushing against the atmosphere, above and remains crushed up to sit inside the stack..

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 01, 2020, 11:46:23 PM

Quote from: JackBlack on October 01, 2020, 01:27:42 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on September 30, 2020, 10:26:45 PM

Internal and external atmosphere is always present and acting. Always. There is a never a time when they do not act together.

Sure there is, when you separate the 2 with a solid barrier.
We can see this in your previous example with the lid of the container popping off. With that, the external atmosphere is acting to hold the lid on, while the internal atmosphere acts against that to pop the lid off.

You've just answered your own query.
The only issue you have now is in trying to use more solid barriers, as if there's no correlation between internal and external pressures.
An iron train wheel tyre should help you.

No, I have explained why your claim is wrong. That isn't answering my query.

We aren't talking about changing the pressure of the container, or even heating it up. We are talking about an object inside the container moving.
You need to explain how this is magically communicated to the air outside.

Edit: My bad, forgot the question/issue you keep avoiding:
Tell me why when a 1 kg weight is introduced to the air-tight container discussed before, that it doesn't add an extra 1 kg to the scale, but it does significantly affect the pressure gauge

It's been explained. You know this but refuse to acknowledge it. You're only frustrating yourself.

Either try a better way of understanding or keep frustrating yourself.

Quote from: JackBlack on October 01, 2020, 11:52:00 PM

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 01, 2020, 11:46:23 PM

Quote from: JackBlack on October 01, 2020, 01:27:42 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on September 30, 2020, 10:26:45 PM

Internal and external atmosphere is always present and acting. Always. There is a never a time when they do not act together.

Sure there is, when you separate the 2 with a solid barrier.
We can see this in your previous example with the lid of the container popping off. With that, the external atmosphere is acting to hold the lid on, while the internal atmosphere acts against that to pop the lid off.

You've just answered your own query.
The only issue you have now is in trying to use more solid barriers, as if there's no correlation between internal and external pressures.
An iron train wheel tyre should help you.

No, I have explained why your claim is wrong. That isn't answering my query.

We aren't talking about changing the pressure of the container, or even heating it up. We are talking about an object inside the container moving.
You need to explain how this is magically communicated to the air outside.

Edit: My bad, forgot the question/issue you keep avoiding:
Tell me why when a 1 kg weight is introduced to the air-tight container discussed before, that it doesn't add an extra 1 kg to the scale, but it does significantly affect the pressure gauge

It's been explained. You know this but refuse to acknowledge it. You're only frustrating yourself.

No, it hasn't been explained. That is why I keep on asking.

Either try a better way of understanding or keep frustrating yourself.

Perhaps try providing a diagram, and stop acting like the problem is everyone else.

Buoyancy works when dense resistance n the stack below cannot be overcome by the dense mass pushing against the atmosphere, above and remains crushed up to sit inside the stack..

So why does buoyancy make objects which still sink lighter?

Perhaps try providing a diagram, and stop acting like the problem is everyone else.

You create your own problems by your refusal to understand one specific before you change it up.

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 02, 2020, 01:04:00 AM

Buoyancy works when dense resistance n the stack below cannot be overcome by the dense mass pushing against the atmosphere, above and remains crushed up to sit inside the stack..

So why does buoyancy make objects which still sink lighter?

Not sure what you're getting at here.
Give me an example of this, getting lighter whilst sinking.

Quote from: Stash on October 01, 2020, 09:33:15 AM

I've been clear in other posts that I've been asking about panels 3&4. That's what we are talking about. Forget about 1&2 for now.

In 3&4 what exactly is happening externally and internally to the box? What is happening to the box itself, if anything. The main issue is that the external atmosphere has no idea what is happening inside the box.

Ok, 3 and 4 are a rectangular box sat of a foundation (ground).
Atmospheric pressure is pushing down on that box.

The see saw inside the box with the two bodies on are all displacing the air inside that box by their own dense masses.

Ok, so inside and outside are sealed by the thickness of the box that is also displacing that amount of atmosphere.
As it stands inside that box there is only breathing (somehow) That breathing alone is moving air about and creating a slosh effect.
Their movement also creates a slosh effect.
The slosh effect impacts everything inside and creates a differential to the outside. It may seem minimal to you but it's there and enough to change the entire set up....meaning, changing movement of dense mass.
This is massively due to a stacking system both inside and out.

The see saw gets angled in the internal stack by the change in mass movement by both parties. One with more atmospheric displacement than the other.

Stick with this and we can maybe inch away at it.
Don't hamper yourself.

Hamper myself? Really? Whatever.

1) First off, the external atmosphere has no idea what's going on inside the box. So the outside atmosphere is irrelevant.
2) Secondly, the "slosh effect" is lateral. How would the inside atmosphere 'slosh' and know to push down on the fat guy when it is sloshing from side to side?
3) Thirdly, there is not enough internal atmosphere, even if it sentiently knew to do so, to push down on the fat guy when it takes the stack of the entire atmosphere to push and hold the fat guy down onto the earth with no box in the way. There's maybe a few inches of a 'stack' above his head and that's enough to push the fat guy down? That would mean that if we removed the box, the entire atmospheric stack, all 100k feet of it above his head, would slam and squash him into the dirt.
4) Lastly, as far as displacement goes, again, there's not enough atmosphere displaced inside the box to push the fat guy down for the same reason as 3. And no reason why that push would be "down".

You always run into the same problem which is why "down". And in this scenario, there is no atmospheric pressure reason that makes any logical sense as to why "down".

You create your own problems by your refusal to understand one specific before you change it up.

You mean I expose your problems by showing the contradictions in your explanations? Where your explanation for one thing directly contradicts the explanation for another?

And then you run away from that issue because you can't explain it?

You were the one who fled from the issue, not me.
You were the unable to explain the issue, not me.
The problem is entirely yours, not mine.

If you truly think it is mine due to a lack of understanding, then try actually addressing the issue.

Quote from: JackBlack

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 02, 2020, 01:04:00 AM

Buoyancy works when dense resistance n the stack below cannot be overcome by the dense mass pushing against the atmosphere, above and remains crushed up to sit inside the stack..

So why does buoyancy make objects which still sink lighter?

Not sure what you're getting at here.
Give me an example of this, getting lighter whilst sinking.

Take a steel ball attached to a chain and hang it from a spring balance.
Note the weight.
Then submerge it in water.
Note the weight.

We observe the weight of the steel ball is reduced, even though it sinks in the water.
So we know that buoyancy is not a magical change where an object magically starts floating because of some magical resistance nonsense and instead is a force that acts on any object in any fluid.

Here is a video for you:

1) First off, the external atmosphere has no idea what's going on inside the box. So the outside atmosphere is irrelevant.

Wrong. It's all relevant. Equal and opposite reaction to action.

2) Secondly, the "slosh effect" is lateral. How would the inside atmosphere 'slosh' and know to push down on the fat guy when it is sloshing from side to side?

How does a swimming pool slosh?
Have you ever walked around a swimming pool and then turned to go the other way?
Just think of that box full of water and picture the people in it.
You can understand that everything in that water is displacing it.
However to allow those people and see saw in, you have to eject their entire mass of it back out.

If  air is in, like you mention, then you have a number of scenarios. You can either have the air compressed by those bodies and see saw, creating extra pressure internally, which would create extra pressure onto the tank, internally and externally, because you took out 3 objects of dense mass from the external atmosphere...so something has to give, because every action has to create an equal and opposite reaction. It simply has to.
There is no way around it.

3) Thirdly, there is not enough internal atmosphere, even if it sentiently knew to do so, to push down on the fat guy when it takes the stack of the entire atmosphere to push and hold the fat guy down onto the earth with no box in the way.

As above.

There's maybe a few inches of a 'stack' above his head and that's enough to push the fat guy down?

f you tried to push mass into a small container you know instantly that you create a massive push back against your push into it.
You're under the impression that we move about freely so air is meaningless.
It certainly seems you see it that way.

That would mean that if we removed the box, the entire atmospheric stack, all 100k feet of it above his head, would slam and squash him into the dirt.

You're not understanding it. I knew you wouldn't.
I swear it baffles me how you are still hell bent on breaking rungs on your ladder climb.

4) Lastly, as far as displacement goes, again, there's not enough atmosphere displaced inside the box to push the fat guy down for the same reason as 3. And no reason why that push would be "down".

As above n the explanation for question 2.

You always run into the same problem which is why "down". And in this scenario, there is no atmospheric pressure reason that makes any logical sense as to why "down".

There is no problem. The problem is all down to you not understanding it. It may frustrated you by you thinking you do....but you simply do not...or you refuse to dare to try.

Take a steel ball attached to a chain and hang it from a spring balance.
Note the weight.
Then submerge it in water.
Note the weight.

We observe the weight of the steel ball is reduced, even though it sinks in the water.
So we know that buoyancy is not a magical change where an object magically starts floating because of some magical resistance nonsense and instead is a force that acts on any object in any fluid.

Here is a video for you:

First of all the steel ball displaces a lot of atmosphere and that same ball is using a spring as it's resistance and also the water as it's much denser foundation than the atmosphere it would be hanging in.

It can displace that atmosphere much easier than it can displace that water...hence why the spring will register less weight measurement of that mass due to that resistance of water.

Quote from: Stash on October 02, 2020, 04:16:24 AM

1) First off, the external atmosphere has no idea what's going on inside the box. So the outside atmosphere is irrelevant.

Wrong. It's all relevant. Equal and opposite reaction to action.

What equal and opposite reaction? Fat guy and skinny guy are on the seesaw with a box covering them. They may move about inside the box at will. What equal and opposite reaction is happening outside the box based upon their movement inside the box? The outside atmosphere has no indication of any movement/action inside the box. The only atmosphere that would be impacted by action that occurs inside the box is the atmosphere that is inside the box. What exactly is the equal and opposite reaction outside of the box?

Quote from: Stash

2) Secondly, the "slosh effect" is lateral. How would the inside atmosphere 'slosh' and know to push down on the fat guy when it is sloshing from side to side?

How does a swimming pool slosh?
Have you ever walked around a swimming pool and then turned to go the other way?
Just think of that box full of water and picture the people in it.
You can understand that everything in that water is displacing it.
However to allow those people and see saw in, you have to eject their entire mass of it back out.

Yes, I've walked around a swimming pool, even fully submerged on the bottom of a swimming pool. And in doing so, no slosh effect was pushing me 'down'. Why would the slosh effect inside the box push the fat guy 'down'?

If  air is in, like you mention, then you have a number of scenarios. You can either have the air compressed by those bodies and see saw, creating extra pressure internally, which would create extra pressure onto the tank, internally and externally, because you took out 3 objects of dense mass from the external atmosphere...so something has to give, because every action has to create an equal and opposite reaction. It simply has to.
There is no way around it.

No, it's more simple than that. Skinny and fat guy are standing on the left side of the seesaw. The box is simply placed over them. There's no extra pressure or anything like that. Atmosphere inside the box is same as the outside. Going back to the first part, what exactly is the equal and opposite reaction outside of the box based upon any action inside the box? What is the outside atmosphere reacting to? It has no inkling anything is happening inside the box.

Quote from: Stash

3) Thirdly, there is not enough internal atmosphere, even if it sentiently knew to do so, to push down on the fat guy when it takes the stack of the entire atmosphere to push and hold the fat guy down onto the earth with no box in the way.

As above.

Quote from: Stash

There's maybe a few inches of a 'stack' above his head and that's enough to push the fat guy down?

f you tried to push mass into a small container you know instantly that you create a massive push back against your push into it.
You're under the impression that we move about freely so air is meaningless.
It certainly seems you see it that way.

Like I wrote above, there's no difference in pressure inside or outside the box. No mass is being "pushed" into a container. The box is just lowered down over them as they are standing there. And of course the air is going to get pushed around in the box as some action occurs. But not enough of a drastic amount to push a 100 kilo guy down and raise up a 50 kilo guy. It's not under pressure, it's just good old fashioned air.

Quote from: Stash

That would mean that if we removed the box, the entire atmospheric stack, all 100k feet of it above his head, would slam and squash him into the dirt.

You're not understanding it. I knew you wouldn't.
I swear it baffles me how you are still hell bent on breaking rungs on your ladder climb.

Great, I'm glad you're now a pre-cog savant. Spare me the sidebar comments. I've been trying very hard to not do that to you. Like I've said before, just because it's clear to you doesn't mean you have adequately made it clear to anyone else. And it's not like a single sole on the planet has bought into your theory in the decade you've been peddling it, so obviously something is amiss. Either you are too brilliant for anyone to grasp your theory, you don't convey it well enough, or it's complete garbage. You have to understand, when you make up new definitions for known words, new ways in which tools and processes work that are not the intention of the designer, you're going to run into some issues with conveyance.

So, in short, does the stack above the fat guy outside of the box pass through the box to him? And if so, how does it know where he is in the box?

Quote from: Stash

4) Lastly, as far as displacement goes, again, there's not enough atmosphere displaced inside the box to push the fat guy down for the same reason as 3. And no reason why that push would be "down".

As above n the explanation for question 2.

Quote from: Stash

You always run into the same problem which is why "down". And in this scenario, there is no atmospheric pressure reason that makes any logical sense as to why "down".

There is no problem. The problem is all down to you not understanding it. It may frustrated you by you thinking you do....but you simply do not...or you refuse to dare to try.

Like I said, your explanations suit you but apparently no one else. There's no daring involved. There are things that just don't make rational sense and because of that, questions will still be asked. For instance, you have not given and adequate explanation as to how the outside atmosphere can have an equal and opposite reaction to the action(s) taking place inside the box. You just say, "equal and opposite reaction". Great. But how? How does the outside atmosphere know to 'react' to anything, equal or not, when it has no idea what, when, and where inside the box actions are taking place?

So Scepti, this brings us back to the scenario I mentioned before.   

I have a sealed tank of air that is suspended in air and balanced horizontally.

I shake the sealed tank of air quickly back and forth horizontally in my hands creating your sloshing effect.

I release the tank so that it is suspended in the air.

Why does the tank not tip up and down at the balance point as the air sloshes from one side to the other in the tank?

If sceppy wants to adhere to the slosh effect inside the airtightank, then he reintroduces a problem that jackB brought up many threads ago - why stacks dont stack side to side?

This is more extremely easier to visualize since our "cell" is much smaller.
As our fatty moves from left to right he will displace and build a slosh.
There would be a lateral stacking.
He should feel a horizontal push once he reaches a wall equal and opposite to his stacked displacement.
If the man was to stand on the scale it would show, say 200lb.
If he moved to the wall, placed the scale on the wall, lay down on the floor with his feet against the scale, we should expect to see the sideways displaced air stack and push him agains the wall, and against the scale, to the effect of 200lbs.

Wrong. It's all relevant. Equal and opposite reaction to action.

That doesn't magically make it relevant as you are yet to show any involvement of the external atmosphere in any action or reaction.
Again, why isn't the action/reaction contained inside the vessel?

Just think of that box full of water and picture the people in it.
You can understand that everything in that water is displacing it.
However to allow those people and see saw in, you have to eject their entire mass of it back out.

Which is entirely irrelevant to the discussion as the people and see-saw are already in. We aren't sticking them in again.
Them moving around doesn't magically mean the water needs to get thrown out again.
Deal with the movement once they are already in. That means no extra pressure because we aren't trying to force air out, just move it around.

There is no problem. The problem is all down to you not understanding it.

The problem is not us not understanding it.
The problem is you not having an explanation which can withstand any scrutiny and instead you repeatedly deflect.
You have been completely unable to explain why the atmosphere pushes down, except in the cases where you contradict yourself and say it pushes up.
The closest you have come is saying that if you are in the atmosphere, you push it out of the way and compress it all around you, except for below. You have failed to provide any explanation for why the atmosphere below isn't compressed and instead just happily sits there to not provide any force to you.

So no, the problem is entirely you and your model.

Quote from: JackBlack on October 02, 2020, 04:38:11 AM

Take a steel ball attached to a chain and hang it from a spring balance.
Note the weight.
Then submerge it in water.
Note the weight.

We observe the weight of the steel ball is reduced, even though it sinks in the water.
So we know that buoyancy is not a magical change where an object magically starts floating because of some magical resistance nonsense and instead is a force that acts on any object in any fluid.

Here is a video for you:

First of all the steel ball displaces a lot of atmosphere and that same ball is using a spring as it's resistance and also the water as it's much denser foundation than the atmosphere it would be hanging in.

It can displace that atmosphere much easier than it can displace that water...hence why the spring will register less weight measurement of that mass due to that resistance of water.

And more pathetic deflection.
You asked for an example of an object weighing less while still sinking.
I provided an example.
This shows that buoyancy is not just a magical resistance nonsense.

Were you hoping I wouldn't be able to provide such evidence?

It's all well and good to just spout all that nonsense, but it doesn't change the fact that this shows buoyancy acts on all objects, not just those less dense than the fluid they are in.

But yet again, you have contradicted yourself.
Isn't it all meant to be about action and reaction?
If it is harder to displace the water, that means it requires more action, and thus you should have a greater reaction, so the object should weigh more in water.

We can also test that it has absolutely nothing to do with how hard it is to displace the fluid by using fluids of differing viscosity.
It is much harder to move fluids with a greater viscosity out of the way, but the buoyant force observed is always based upon the density of the fluid, not the viscosity.
So it clearly has nothing to do with how hard it is to push it out of the way.

But more importantly, once the water is displaced, why should it matter? Displacing the water is a property of motion. Once it is in the water, and "stationary" it is no longer displacing the water. So why doesn't it have the full weight back?
It would only make sense for the difficulty to displace it to affect it when it is falling through it, not when it is stationary.

And going back to viscosity, that is what is observed. If you drop an object through a viscous fluid the rate it falls at depends highly upon the viscosity of the fluid as that effects the terminal velocity of it.
But that is just the velocity it falls at. Once it stops falling and you measure the weight, the weight depends on the density of the fluid, not the viscosity.

Care to try again?
Care to explain why the density of the fluid is what matters? That means no appealing to any resistance or how hard it is to displace that fluid.

And of course you ignore the problem you claimed you would stick to yet again.

Once more:
Why does the scale not record an increase in weight but the pressure gauge does record an increase in pressure?

And as you want to avoid so many issues and not stick to this one like you said you would, I may as well bring up the other issues you have been avoiding:
Why does an object in mid air get pushed down, even though it has air all around?
Why does a suction cup get pressed upwards to the ceiling rather than fall down if the air below doesn't push up?
Why only a suction cup rather than any old object?
Similarly, if it is based upon the ground being below you, why doesn't it apply a sideways force if you put yourself up against a cliff?
Why does the pressure/weight/force increase as you move down a stack, if all the force is being applied from the top?
Why does a barometer work, with it working depending on its orientation?
Why does a vessel weigh less if you evacuate the air from it, i.e. cause it to displace more air?
Why does the weight of an object depend upon its mass, rather than its volume or cross sectional area, when all forces of air and other fluids and observed to be proportional to area, not mass?
If air can magically penetrate through everything such that the "volume" an object displaces is magically proportional to its mass rather than being its actual volume, how is anything air tight?
If weight is based upon displacing atmosphere with that atmosphere pushing back onto the object with an "equal and opposite reaction", how come when you replace the atmosphere with a denser fluid, how come the weight becomes less rather than more?
Likewise, why, when you lower the air pressure (making it easier to displace the air), the weight of an object increases, rather than decreases, but only to a point, where when the object is in a near perfect vacuum, with effectively no resistance from the air, it still has a significant weight rather than being weightless?

And the more fundamental issue, why does air stack in the first place?

They are the ones I can remember off the top of my head. There are probably plenty of others I have forgotten for now.

So Scepti, this brings us back to the scenario I mentioned before.   

I have a sealed tank of air that is suspended in air and balanced horizontally.

I shake the sealed tank of air quickly back and forth horizontally in my hands creating your sloshing effect.

I release the tank so that it is suspended in the air.

Why does the tank not tip up and down at the balance point as the air sloshes from one side to the other in the tank?

It would be damped in short order.

Isn't it all meant to be about action and reaction?

Absolutely.

If it is harder to displace the water, that means it requires more action, and thus you should have a greater reaction, so the object should weigh more in water.

The more action is the resistance of the mass by the denser water.
As for weighing more in water. You have your dense mass on a spring hanging above it, with the dense mass immersed in that water.
It shows a measure that is less because the dense mass of the object is being resisted by that spring and also the denser mass of the water crushing into that dense mass.

We can also test that it has absolutely nothing to do with how hard it is to displace the fluid by using fluids of differing viscosity.

Well how about you explain that and we can go through it.

But more importantly, once the water is displaced, why should it matter? Displacing the water is a property of motion.

No...it is not.
Displacement of water or atmosphere or even Earth/ground, is all about what sits in them....meaning whatever mass sits within...meaning, that mass is displacing  whatever it sits in.
I don't know why you find this bit hard because you know any mass in water will displace that water by using a full container to immerse that mass into and into a separate tared container to be weighed.
You know from that, the water weighs the same as the mass....so you can clearly understand what displacement is.
What you avoid is the displacement of atmosphere because it kills gravity stone dead.

Once it is in the water, and "stationary" it is no longer displacing the water.

If that was the case then the object would not exist.
It has to displace water by it's own dense mass.

Is there anyone out there who can understand this?

If sceppy wants to adhere to the slosh effect inside the airtightank, then he reintroduces a problem that jackB brought up many threads ago - why stacks dont stack side to side?

They do.

This is more extremely easier to visualize since our "cell" is much smaller.
As our fatty moves from left to right he will displace and build a slosh.
There would be a lateral stacking.

He will create a higher compression as he moves forward which will leave a lower pressure behind him, which will be filled by the higher pressure created.
So basically, what he pushes away, comes right back behind and onto him.
Not only will this change be felt inside, it will also be flt as an imbalance, externally due to the pressure change. Depending on the material holding the internal mass and air, will determine the change in compressive force, or decompressive force.

He should feel a horizontal push once he reaches a wall equal and opposite to his stacked displacement.
If the man was to stand on the scale it would show, say 200lb.
If he moved to the wall, placed the scale on the wall, lay down on the floor with his feet against the scale, we should expect to see the sideways displaced air stack and push him agains the wall, and against the scale, to the effect of 200lbs.

Nope, you are missing the point entirely.