Sea and air pressure

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 06, 2020, 10:05:34 PM

Yep, which increases pressure in one area with every movement before that pressure equalises once again.
Why do compressed air/gas cylinders have to be stored in a cool place?

You mean which increases the pressure in the immediate vicinity for a tiny period of time unless the person is moving quite quickly, and which very rapidly is resolved to result in no overall change in pressure of the container.
The container is the same regardless of where the person is inside it.

Are you trying to suggest that air has memory? That it remembers what pressure it has felt and can act based upon that even if it isn't still feeling that pressure?

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 06, 2020, 10:11:01 PM

Have you ever let a flat board drop to the ground and watched it just land on a cushion of air before that air is decompressed back into the atmosphere?
There's an example of how mass can be resisted.

This happens with everything, just on different scales...including the person in that box.

Yet clearly not to cause weight.
We can compare that flat board, which weighs basically nothing on a scale, to a much smaller steel ball, which weighs a lot more.
If you drop the steel ball, it isn't dropped by a cushion of air.
This air resistance acts based upon the area, not the mass. So why should what causes weight to act based upon mass rather than area?

And I see still no explanation of the most basic question, why things fall, including in mid air or against a wall or cieling.

what happens if the board is dropped edgeways?
what happens if the board were folded (somehow) so that it was the shape of a stick more or less?
it still weighs the same does it cause a below stack the same?

because i weigh 180lbs whether i'm standing on one foot.
sitting
upside down
lying in a george costanze glamour pose.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.ca%2FCostanza-Seinfeld-Painting-Handmade-Printed%2Fdp%2FB00IIE9A9M&psig=AOvVaw04h2Mq0HXzXOIcslN_R-BK&ust=1602173661893000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CAIQjRxqFwoTCMD2vpHwouwCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAD

Quote from: NotSoSkeptical on October 06, 2020, 09:07:12 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 06, 2020, 12:37:39 AM

Quote from: NotSoSkeptical on October 05, 2020, 09:43:19 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 04, 2020, 01:00:04 AM

Quote from: NotSoSkeptical on October 02, 2020, 08:42:29 AM

So Scepti, this brings us back to the scenario I mentioned before.   

I have a sealed tank of air that is suspended in air and balanced horizontally.

I shake the sealed tank of air quickly back and forth horizontally in my hands creating your sloshing effect.

I release the tank so that it is suspended in the air.

Why does the tank not tip up and down at the balance point as the air sloshes from one side to the other in the tank?

It would be damped in short order.

How short of an order?

What do you mean by damped?  Equalized?

Yep.

So if I step forward 1 step, how fast does the area I just vacated become equalized.

Very quickly.
Have you ever let a flat board drop to the ground and watched it just land on a cushion of air before that air is decompressed back into the atmosphere?
There's an example of how mass can be resisted.

This happens with everything, just on different scales...including the person in that box.

How fast is very quickly?

A couple of seconds?

Why dossnt it stack the same in all directions?
And if it does stack all over, but not as much, then when the guy is up against the wall, he should feel the lateral/ horz stacking pushing him.

Now if you were to employ that suction cups work on the wall, then by reverse logic, since everything everywhere falls "down" due to stacking, then non suction cups should also be pushed to the wall.

Your suction cup sticks to a wall because that wall becomes your foundation against the horizontal and vertical stack.
It cannot equalise all around it so it crushes it by the amount of added pressure pushed out of that cup.
The very same happens on the ground.
It's all the same thing.

No. There's no temperature or pressure variance like your bottle of water in a freezer. Now put your mind at work.

There's always a temperature variation. Come on man, you're making this especially hard for yourself if you're really after getting to grips.
If not then I understand why you're doing this.

You say simply that "as much as there is stuff going on inside, there is also stuff going on outside". That's not an answer. Especially considering that your set-up doesn't apply.

Literally, it's just two guys under a non-sealed box on a seesaw. They are not being chilled (nor heated) they are just standing there. The outside atmosphere has no idea what's going on inside the box so it has no idea about an 'equal and opposite' reaction. How could it? How would the outside atmosphere 'know' anything?

So why have them in a box in the first place?
If it's not sealed you might as well go back to having them outside of it. You're making your own side complicated for yourself and there's no need to be.

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 06, 2020, 11:52:00 PM

The people inside the box are still under pressure even if it's normal atmospheric in your unsealed box.
Anything happening inside that unsealed box is going to be impacted externally.

"Anything happening inside that unsealed box is going to be impacted externally." How? How does the outside atmosphere know when the fat guy walks over to the other side on the seesaw and lifts the skinny guy? There is literally no way for the outside atmosphere to 'know' and impart something and begin to impact externally. What is the mechanism that allows the external atmosphere to know the when and where to do something?

Let me say this again and grasp it for your own peace of mind.
If you placed those two people in a box made of thin plastic...just enough to hold it together as a box, do you think their breathing and movement will create a pressure impact on the skin of that box?

If so, what do you think that pressure impact will look like outside of that box?
Inside the box from their point of view, the box would go concave as it pushed out a little,
From the outsiders point of view, it would belly out, convexly.

Unless you think this doesn't happen...and if so, then ballons don't expand and what not.

Let's see how you answer this bit.

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 06, 2020, 11:52:00 PM

It doesn't matter how it's looked at, there is always external reaction to any action whether it's sealed or not.

Umm, it most certainly matters. Because there is no mechanism that can sentiently tell the external atmosphere to actively react and cause an effect on something internally in this scenario. The external has no knowledge or connection to the internal. None. Describe the mechanism you speak of.

There doesn't need to be any magic and sentient. It's about atmospheric borrowing and paying it back, to put it in another context.

It's like breathing.
You breathe in atmosphere and what you breathe in adds volume to your body and ultimately expands your body to fill the atmosphere you took the air from.
When you expel that air your body returns to normal and puts that air back into the atmosphere, meaning your body contracts.

The same happens with a balloon.
The same happens with anything you use to compress air/gas into. It expands, even if it's unseeable for many things.
Just like that iron train tyre.
It's all about minute to extremes but it all unbalances before it balances or should I go back to, it all creates and equal reaction to action.

Are you trying to suggest that air has memory? That it remembers what pressure it has felt and can act based upon that even if it isn't still feeling that pressure?

Action and equal and opposite, reaction.

We can compare that flat board, which weighs basically nothing on a scale, to a much smaller steel ball, which weighs a lot more.
If you drop the steel ball, it isn't dropped by a cushion of air.

To drop a steel ball, first you must pick that steel ball up from its foundation. The foundation it is using to displace the atmosphere it's dense mass sits under/in.
That takes energy to unleash it from the atmospheric crush of it's own mass displacement.

This air resistance acts based upon the area, not the mass. So why should what causes weight to act based upon mass rather than area?

If you were to drop an iron ball through air, the air below in that stacking system, will create a resistance but the dense mass of the ball hitting that  small area it is in, will easily overcome that resistance.
However, if you flatten out that iron ball into a thin sheet, you create a much bigger area of iron but also a much bigger area of resistance in that same stacking system.
If you observe you would see the iron sheet bed upwards as it was dropped.
Why?
Because dropping it into that stacking area, compresses against it. It creates a higher pressure in that area which has to be equalised.
This pushes the compressed air down and to the sides which pushes back up and back onto he sheet, along with the above atmosphere.
It means resistance is overcome but much slower because of the area of that resistance...as opposed to the ball.

And I see still no explanation of the most basic question, why things fall, including in mid air or against a wall or cieling.

It's been explained and again, above but I doubt you want any explanation, to be fair.

Quote from: JackBlack on October 07, 2020, 01:15:59 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 06, 2020, 10:05:34 PM

Yep, which increases pressure in one area with every movement before that pressure equalises once again.
Why do compressed air/gas cylinders have to be stored in a cool place?

You mean which increases the pressure in the immediate vicinity for a tiny period of time unless the person is moving quite quickly, and which very rapidly is resolved to result in no overall change in pressure of the container.
The container is the same regardless of where the person is inside it.

Are you trying to suggest that air has memory? That it remembers what pressure it has felt and can act based upon that even if it isn't still feeling that pressure?

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 06, 2020, 10:11:01 PM

Have you ever let a flat board drop to the ground and watched it just land on a cushion of air before that air is decompressed back into the atmosphere?
There's an example of how mass can be resisted.

This happens with everything, just on different scales...including the person in that box.

Yet clearly not to cause weight.
We can compare that flat board, which weighs basically nothing on a scale, to a much smaller steel ball, which weighs a lot more.
If you drop the steel ball, it isn't dropped by a cushion of air.
This air resistance acts based upon the area, not the mass. So why should what causes weight to act based upon mass rather than area?

And I see still no explanation of the most basic question, why things fall, including in mid air or against a wall or cieling.

what happens if the board is dropped edgeways?
what happens if the board were folded (somehow) so that it was the shape of a stick more or less?
it still weighs the same does it cause a below stack the same?

because i weigh 180lbs whether i'm standing on one foot.
sitting
upside down
lying in a george costanze glamour pose.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.ca%2FCostanza-Seinfeld-Painting-Handmade-Printed%2Fdp%2FB00IIE9A9M&psig=AOvVaw04h2Mq0HXzXOIcslN_R-BK&ust=1602173661893000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CAIQjRxqFwoTCMD2vpHwouwCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAD

You still displace the same amount of atmosphere whether you lay down, sit or stand, or stand on one leg.
It's all about your dense mass.
All you're doing is changing the way the atmosphere reacts in area of displacement.

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 06, 2020, 10:11:01 PM

Quote from: NotSoSkeptical on October 06, 2020, 09:07:12 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 06, 2020, 12:37:39 AM

Quote from: NotSoSkeptical on October 05, 2020, 09:43:19 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 04, 2020, 01:00:04 AM

Quote from: NotSoSkeptical on October 02, 2020, 08:42:29 AM

So Scepti, this brings us back to the scenario I mentioned before.   

I have a sealed tank of air that is suspended in air and balanced horizontally.

I shake the sealed tank of air quickly back and forth horizontally in my hands creating your sloshing effect.

I release the tank so that it is suspended in the air.

Why does the tank not tip up and down at the balance point as the air sloshes from one side to the other in the tank?

It would be damped in short order.

How short of an order?

What do you mean by damped?  Equalized?

Yep.

So if I step forward 1 step, how fast does the area I just vacated become equalized.

Very quickly.
Have you ever let a flat board drop to the ground and watched it just land on a cushion of air before that air is decompressed back into the atmosphere?
There's an example of how mass can be resisted.

This happens with everything, just on different scales...including the person in that box.

How fast is very quickly?

A couple of seconds?

For every action there is an immediate, equal and opposite, reaction.
You can judge how quick that would be, if you want.

Quote from: JackBlack on October 07, 2020, 01:15:59 AM

Are you trying to suggest that air has memory? That it remembers what pressure it has felt and can act based upon that even if it isn't still feeling that pressure?

Action and equal and opposite, reaction.

Care to actually address what was asked/said rather than just spouting a nonsensical statement which means literally nothing?

Quote from: JackBlack on October 07, 2020, 01:15:59 AM

We can compare that flat board, which weighs basically nothing on a scale, to a much smaller steel ball, which weighs a lot more.
If you drop the steel ball, it isn't stopped by a cushion of air.

To drop a steel ball, first you must pick that steel ball up from its foundation. The foundation it is using to displace the atmosphere it's dense mass sits under/in.

Again, this in no way addresses what I said, and applies equally to any object. Thus if that magically meant that the steel ball doesn't get that resistance, the same would happen for everything and no object would experience an air cushion.

If weight was due to this resistance/interaction of the atmosphere, a steel ball, with minimal resistance when being dropped, should weigh basically nothing.

But even more damning, this air cushion pretty much stopping the object is yet another example of something you claim does not happen; the air below the object is pushing up on the object.
So why would it stop doing that and then magically have the air just push the object down to go the rest of the way?

Quote from: JackBlack

This air resistance acts based upon the area, not the mass. So why should what causes weight to act based upon mass rather than area?

If you were to drop an iron ball through air, the air below in that stacking system, will create a resistance but the dense mass of the ball hitting that  small area it is in, will easily overcome that resistance.

This only works if your discard your nonsense and stick to reality.
Remember, according to your nonsense, it is that very same air which is acting to push the object down.

This phenomenon only makes sense if air is not what causes objects to fall.

Once more, this simple phenomenon shows that air acts based upon area, not mass.
That means weight, which is based upon mass and not area, is NOT CAUSED BY AIR!

However, if you flatten out that iron ball into a thin sheet, you create a much bigger area of iron but also a much bigger area of resistance in that same stacking system.
If you observe you would see the iron sheet bed upwards as it was dropped.

Yet it still weighs the same.
Why?
Because weight is not caused by air pushing objects down.

It creates a higher pressure in that area which has to be equalised.
This pushes the compressed air down and to the sides which pushes back up and back onto he sheet

And yet again you have directly contradicted yourself.
Remember the discussion about rockets and how you claimed that air won't do that and instead will magically just push towards the opening.
That means in this case the air would just flow out to the sides and not resist the steel at all.

So your model fails yet again.

Quote from: JackBlack

And I see still no explanation of the most basic question, why things fall, including in mid air or against a wall or cieling.

It's been explained and again, above but I doubt you want any explanation, to be fair.

No, I want an actual explanation; that means one which actually addresses the situations, is applicable in the various situations asked for, and one which is not contradicted by a simple observation or reality.
So far the only "explanations" you have provided either were for a different situation (e.g. it specifically needed the object sitting on the ground with air above and would indicate that an object against a wall would be pushed to the wall, and an object on the ceiling would be pushed towards the ceiling and have an object in mid air not pushed at all) or amounted to nothing more than a baseless assertion of the air magically pushes it down.

You are yet to provide an actual explanation of why an object in mid air (or against a wall or ceiling) is pushed DOWN by the air.
That is because there is no reason. As the air is on all sides, there is no reason for the air to push it down.

If you actually have an explanation which works and doesn't make your model look like nonsense, I want it.

Your suction cup sticks to a wall because that wall becomes your foundation against the horizontal and vertical stack.
It cannot equalise all around it so it crushes it by the amount of added pressure pushed out of that cup.

And the same should apply to ANY object.
Either every object should act just like a suction cup and thus stick to walls and ceilings, actually getting pushed towards, or their inability to create an air tight seal should result in the air getting around and pushing from all directions meaning they wont fall.

The fact that suction cups quite happily stick to a surface in ANY direction, while other objects fall down and don't stick to walls shows they behave significantly differently and that it is not air pushing things down.

There's always a temperature variation. Come on man, you're making this especially hard for yourself if you're really after getting to grips.
If not then I understand why you're doing this.

And that variation occurs regardless of where the person is.
Again, you are just deflecting from your inability to explain how the air outside magically knows to push the object the other way.
Once more, the problem still rests entirely on your model.

So why have them in a box in the first place?

To provide a barrier to the stack of air above.
Now the air above acts on the entire box, with no reason to push down one side more than the other.
It exposes the problem with your nonsense.

If you placed those two people in a box made of thin plastic...just enough to hold it together as a box, do you think their breathing and movement will create a pressure impact on the skin of that box?

Not unless they are right up against the wall.
Otherwise, any slight fluctuation in pressure at the wall of the box will be independent upon where the people are.

And again, we aren't dealing with such a pathetic box.

Now stop just appealing to pathetic pressure variations and instead explain how the air outside the box magically knows to push down on a particular side of the box.

Unless you think this doesn't happen...and if so, then ballons don't expand and what not.

Balloons expand due to the increased amount of air inside them, or that air being at a higher pressure.

It's like breathing.

No, it is nothing like breathing.
Again, we are dealing with people moving inside the box, not pumping in loads of air into the box or draining loads of air from it.
The part like breathing would be entirely inside the box, with no involvement from external atmosphere.
The person moves, and the air inside the box moves around them.

You still displace the same amount of atmosphere whether you lay down, sit or stand, or stand on one leg.
It's all about your dense mass.
All you're doing is changing the way the atmosphere reacts in area of displacement.

And that is nothing like how air acts to push an object. Again, dropping an object and having it stopped by the air provides a clear example of this.
Once more, this shows that weight is not caused by air.

Quote from: Themightykabool on October 07, 2020, 12:12:48 AM

Why dossnt it stack the same in all directions?
And if it does stack all over, but not as much, then when the guy is up against the wall, he should feel the lateral/ horz stacking pushing him.

Now if you were to employ that suction cups work on the wall, then by reverse logic, since everything everywhere falls "down" due to stacking, then non suction cups should also be pushed to the wall.

Your suction cup sticks to a wall because that wall becomes your foundation against the horizontal and vertical stack.
It cannot equalise all around it so it crushes it by the amount of added pressure pushed out of that cup.
The very same happens on the ground.
It's all the same thing.

Why can't I walk up walls or the ceiling.  If I suspend myself from the ceiling and plant my feet on the wall or ceiling, wouldn't that be my foundation and thus can walk on them without falling.

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 07, 2020, 11:03:37 PM

Quote from: Themightykabool on October 07, 2020, 12:12:48 AM

Why dossnt it stack the same in all directions?
And if it does stack all over, but not as much, then when the guy is up against the wall, he should feel the lateral/ horz stacking pushing him.

Now if you were to employ that suction cups work on the wall, then by reverse logic, since everything everywhere falls "down" due to stacking, then non suction cups should also be pushed to the wall.

Your suction cup sticks to a wall because that wall becomes your foundation against the horizontal and vertical stack.
It cannot equalise all around it so it crushes it by the amount of added pressure pushed out of that cup.
The very same happens on the ground.
It's all the same thing.

Why can't I walk up walls or the ceiling.  If I suspend myself from the ceiling and plant my feet on the wall or ceiling, wouldn't that be my foundation and thus can walk on them without falling.

You could if you had rubber cups of air tied to your hands or feet which you could evacuate against it.


Not understanding the stacking system is a big problem for you all.

Please show us the stacking system and why sponges only stack vertically.
You claim they stack side-side as our SEALED (yss, stash, it should be sealed) box example and show how the man inside can be prsssed up against the wall.

You could if you had rubber cups of air tied to your hands or feet which you could evacuate against it.

If your model was true, then either there would be no need for the rubber cups, or rubber cups wouldn't help.

Either the air doesn't push up from below and thus even with rubber cups you still couldn't cling to the ceiling, or the air does push up from below and thus without that seal the air would get underneath you and push you up, and thus there is no reason for the air to push you down; or that seal isn't important at all.

Your model not working at all and you having no explanation is such a big problem for you, not us.
You continually deflecting from the inability to explain anything consistently with your model (including by repeatedly accusing us of having the problem) is a big problem for you, not us.

Once more, why does the air push things down?

Not understanding the stacking system is a big problem for you all.

It’s no problem, because you just make it up as you go along and it’s completely and utterly wrong.

Quote from: NotSoSkeptical on October 08, 2020, 08:32:23 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 07, 2020, 11:03:37 PM

Quote from: Themightykabool on October 07, 2020, 12:12:48 AM

Why dossnt it stack the same in all directions?
And if it does stack all over, but not as much, then when the guy is up against the wall, he should feel the lateral/ horz stacking pushing him.

Now if you were to employ that suction cups work on the wall, then by reverse logic, since everything everywhere falls "down" due to stacking, then non suction cups should also be pushed to the wall.

Your suction cup sticks to a wall because that wall becomes your foundation against the horizontal and vertical stack.
It cannot equalise all around it so it crushes it by the amount of added pressure pushed out of that cup.
The very same happens on the ground.
It's all the same thing.

Why can't I walk up walls or the ceiling.  If I suspend myself from the ceiling and plant my feet on the wall or ceiling, wouldn't that be my foundation and thus can walk on them without falling.

You could if you had rubber cups of air tied to your hands or feet which you could evacuate against it.


Not understanding the stacking system is a big problem for you all.

Why can the wall and ceilings become a foundation for the suction cups but not my feet?

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 07, 2020, 11:23:36 PM

Quote from: JackBlack on October 07, 2020, 01:15:59 AM

Are you trying to suggest that air has memory? That it remembers what pressure it has felt and can act based upon that even if it isn't still feeling that pressure?

Action and equal and opposite, reaction.

Care to actually address what was asked/said rather than just spouting a nonsensical statement which means literally nothing?

It means everything.
Nothing can happen without those two important happenings.
So...it's far from nonsense.

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 07, 2020, 11:03:37 PM

Your suction cup sticks to a wall because that wall becomes your foundation against the horizontal and vertical stack.
It cannot equalise all around it so it crushes it by the amount of added pressure pushed out of that cup.

And the same should apply to ANY object.
Either every object should act just like a suction cup and thus stick to walls and ceilings, actually getting pushed towards, or their inability to create an air tight seal should result in the air getting around and pushing from all directions meaning they wont fall.

Only if there's a pressure difference.

The fact that suction cups quite happily stick to a surface in ANY direction, while other objects fall down and don't stick to walls shows they behave significantly differently and that it is not air pushing things down.

The cup will be pushed to any surface if a pressure difference is created.
The creation of this pressure difference is by applied energy to the cup to push away some air from inside of it and that air that is pushed from inside of it now takes its place outside of it with the rest of the atmosphere.
That air pushed out creates the exact same force back onto the cup , clamping it to a floor, wall or ceiling as long as there is no ingress back into that cup.


Pretty simple when you actually put your mind to it.

Please show us the stacking system and why sponges only stack vertically.
You claim they stack side-side as our SEALED (yss, stash, it should be sealed) box example and show how the man inside can be prsssed up against the wall.

Now look at that and think of it all under a dome in stead of the pyramid.
This is as simple as I can put it.

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 08, 2020, 11:25:22 PM

You could if you had rubber cups of air tied to your hands or feet which you could evacuate against it.

If your model was true, then either there would be no need for the rubber cups, or rubber cups wouldn't help.

Either the air doesn't push up from below and thus even with rubber cups you still couldn't cling to the ceiling, or the air does push up from below and thus without that seal the air would get underneath you and push you up, and thus there is no reason for the air to push you down; or that seal isn't important at all.

Your model not working at all and you having no explanation is such a big problem for you, not us.
You continually deflecting from the inability to explain anything consistently with your model (including by repeatedly accusing us of having the problem) is a big problem for you, not us.

Once more, why does the air push things down?

Not a chance you're being serious with that post. No way in hell is it possible for you to always be going backwards.

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 08, 2020, 11:25:22 PM

Quote from: NotSoSkeptical on October 08, 2020, 08:32:23 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 07, 2020, 11:03:37 PM

Quote from: Themightykabool on October 07, 2020, 12:12:48 AM

Why dossnt it stack the same in all directions?
And if it does stack all over, but not as much, then when the guy is up against the wall, he should feel the lateral/ horz stacking pushing him.

Now if you were to employ that suction cups work on the wall, then by reverse logic, since everything everywhere falls "down" due to stacking, then non suction cups should also be pushed to the wall.

Your suction cup sticks to a wall because that wall becomes your foundation against the horizontal and vertical stack.
It cannot equalise all around it so it crushes it by the amount of added pressure pushed out of that cup.
The very same happens on the ground.
It's all the same thing.

Why can't I walk up walls or the ceiling.  If I suspend myself from the ceiling and plant my feet on the wall or ceiling, wouldn't that be my foundation and thus can walk on them without falling.

You could if you had rubber cups of air tied to your hands or feet which you could evacuate against it.


Not understanding the stacking system is a big problem for you all.

Why can the wall and ceilings become a foundation for the suction cups but not my feet?

Because your body's dense mass will push through the below atmospheric stack aided by the above atmospheric stack over you.

Quote from: JackBlack on October 08, 2020, 02:14:18 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 07, 2020, 11:23:36 PM

Quote from: JackBlack on October 07, 2020, 01:15:59 AM

Are you trying to suggest that air has memory? That it remembers what pressure it has felt and can act based upon that even if it isn't still feeling that pressure?

Action and equal and opposite, reaction.

Care to actually address what was asked/said rather than just spouting a nonsensical statement which means literally nothing?

It means everything.

No, in this context it means nothing.
It may as well have been any random collection of words.
It in no way addresses if air has memory, nor does it in any way address how the air outside the box magically knows how to push down on the inside.

So no, it is nonsense.

Only if there's a pressure difference.

You mean like the pressure difference which exists in the atmosphere all the time, creating the upwards force known as buoyancy?

Otherwise, why?
Why does it only push up when there is a pressure difference, but it magically pushes down all other times?
Why doesn't it only push down when there is a pressure difference?

And as you have said before, any motion would create a pressure difference.
So if you have your foot against the ceiling and move it away, then it would create a pressure difference, which by your reasoning should now hold you to the ceiling.

Pretty simple when you actually put your mind to it.

I know how the air works is pretty simple when you put your mind to it, which includes it not causing objects to fall.
The problem is that you want to discard that.

Not a chance you're being serious with that post. No way in hell is it possible for you to always be going backwards.

No, still a very big chance.
Once more, I'm not the one going backwards. It is has always been you and your model taking so many steps backwards with the repeated contradictions and inability to explain.

You are yet to actually provide an explanation for why things fall.


If either of us isn't serious it is clearly you, as instead of providing explanations you just continually deflect.
Even now you deflect by just saying I'm not serious.
Still no explanation.


So once more, why do things fall?
How does the magically push things down?
This includes thing in mid-air, up against the ceiling or against a wall.

Because your body's dense mass will push through the below atmospheric stack aided by the above atmospheric stack over you.

So you are now saying there is something else causing your body to push down, rather than just the air?
Otherwise it would be entirely from the air above (rather than it being your body with some minor assistance from the air above), and still no justification of why.

And that still doesn't address why it doesn't also happen sideways.
Why doesn't your body's dense mass push through the stack to the right aided by the stack to the left?
Why can't we use the wall to the left as a foundation against this stack to the left?

Alternatively, why isn't it your body's dense mass pushing through the above atmospheric stack aided by the atmospheric stack below you?

It is the same route problem, you have no explanation for how the air magically pushes things down rather than in any other direction, or not at all.

So again, why do things fall?
How does the air magically push things down?

Quote from: Themightykabool on October 09, 2020, 12:29:25 AM

Please show us the stacking system and why sponges only stack vertically.
You claim they stack side-side as our SEALED (yss, stash, it should be sealed) box example and show how the man inside can be prsssed up against the wall.

Now look at that and think of it all under a dome in stead of the pyramid.
This is as simple as I can put it.

Ok, I can go with the sealed box.

- Fat guy & skinny guy in the sealed, we'll say, iron box standing together on the left side of the see saw
- Temp is the same inside and out. It will get hotter in the box from body temp, but they just got sealed in, so it's the same
- As well, pressure is same inside the box as out outside

- Fat guy starts to walk up the seesaw to the other side. In doing so, the skinny guy's side starts to raise up
- Fat guy gets to the end of the right side, he is now lowered down at ground level having raised skinny guy's side up

Does the outside the box atmosphere impart anything on the inside of the box atmosphere to cause the fat guy to sink and the skinny guy to rise?

If so, how? How does the outside stack have any influence on what's happening inside the sealed box?

Bonus question. The Action Lab guy posted a new vacuum experiment. Feather versus a coin. He shows how they both fall at the same rate in a near vacuum. How does dp account for this?

Skip to 1:45 to see the experiment:

Quote from: Themightykabool on October 09, 2020, 12:29:25 AM

Please show us the stacking system and why sponges only stack vertically.
You claim they stack side-side as our SEALED (yss, stash, it should be sealed) box example and show how the man inside can be prsssed up against the wall.

Now look at that and think of it all under a dome in stead of the pyramid.
This is as simple as I can put it.

Thanks
Lets pretend its in a sealed square cube that doesnt know up from down.
Turn it side ways.
How do the bubbles know to go down?
Which wya is down?
Why not side ways?
Why not up?

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 11, 2020, 12:42:17 AM

Because your body's dense mass will push through the below atmospheric stack aided by the above atmospheric stack over you.

So you are now saying there is something else causing your body to push down, rather than just the air?
Otherwise it would be entirely from the air above (rather than it being your body with some minor assistance from the air above), and still no justification of why.

The something else causing your body to be pushed down is your body itself by the displacement of the atmosphere it is in at any point.

How can it take so long for you to grasp this?

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 10, 2020, 11:38:00 PM

Quote from: Themightykabool on October 09, 2020, 12:29:25 AM

Please show us the stacking system and why sponges only stack vertically.
You claim they stack side-side as our SEALED (yss, stash, it should be sealed) box example and show how the man inside can be prsssed up against the wall.

Now look at that and think of it all under a dome in stead of the pyramid.
This is as simple as I can put it.

Ok, I can go with the sealed box.

- Fat guy & skinny guy in the sealed, we'll say, iron box standing together on the left side of the see saw
- Temp is the same inside and out. It will get hotter in the box from body temp, but they just got sealed in, so it's the same
- As well, pressure is same inside the box as out outside

- Fat guy starts to walk up the seesaw to the other side. In doing so, the skinny guy's side starts to raise up
- Fat guy gets to the end of the right side, he is now lowered down at ground level having raised skinny guy's side up

Does the outside the box atmosphere impart anything on the inside of the box atmosphere to cause the fat guy to sink and the skinny guy to rise?

If so, how? How does the outside stack have any influence on what's happening inside the sealed box?

Ok, first of all you need to understand about atmospheric displacement by dense mass.
I know you think you do but in this case...(my denpressure) you miss major points and it's setting you back.

Do you agree the fat person displacees more atmosphere than the skinny person? I'm sure you'll answer, yes.

And by me assuming you do agree to that, you can also understand how the fat person's displacement of air inside that box will be much more than the skinny person, so his movement on that see saw will create a pressure difference wherever he moves...always by his own dense body mass of displacement of that air.
This means the pressure he displacees is all back onto hm, meaning the skinny person will not only feel the displacement of the longer part of the see saw plank but will do so with the fat person's dense mass displacement of air, added to that point.

It stands to reason that the fat guy is going to push against more of the air than the skinny guy who will displace
less...or push against less...whichever way you want to see it.

Bonus question. The Action Lab guy posted a new vacuum experiment. Feather versus a coin. He shows how they both fall at the same rate in a near vacuum. How does dp account for this?


Skip to 1:45 to see the experiment:

If you take a look at my simple and crude air stacking diagram you will see the circles (atmosphere) become bigger. This would be representative of the so called vacuum (low pressure).

The fact that the bottom of the stack is very dense and in greater numbers of circles, you can see how they will create massive resistance to anything falling through, meaning a coin and a feather would react massively different upon encountering this resistance. The coin being much more dense and being able to displace  much more of the atmosphere and so, a bigger push against resistance, whereas the feather does not have that same dense mass to push through.


However....we get to your so called vacuum (low pressure)......the larger circles are all that's in that chamber and there is not the same dense mass of atmosphere (air) in that heavily evacuated chamber.

This means the coin will still fall fast but the feather will also encounter massive change in resistance to its own dense mass....meaning, it will much more easily push through it due to the weak resistance of the more expanded matter (atmosphere) under it.

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 10, 2020, 11:38:00 PM

Quote from: Themightykabool on October 09, 2020, 12:29:25 AM

Please show us the stacking system and why sponges only stack vertically.
You claim they stack side-side as our SEALED (yss, stash, it should be sealed) box example and show how the man inside can be prsssed up against the wall.

Now look at that and think of it all under a dome in stead of the pyramid.
This is as simple as I can put it.

Thanks
Lets pretend its in a sealed square cube that doesnt know up from down.
Turn it side ways.
How do the bubbles know to go down?
Which wya is down?
Why not side ways?
Why not up?

Because, like I said before. For every action there is an equal and opposite, reaction, whether internally or externally.
One always affects the other, no matter what.

Look at the stacking system.
Imagine the box being in this stacking system.
Can you see where the box is never going to be under any perfect equilibrium?

This means that, although the empty box of atmosphere is equal in itself, inside, this is not the case, external to it, within that stack.
Place the box withing my stack and see where it rests.

Hopefully you will see the pressure difference of the box as it displaces the atmosphere it is placed within.

Feel free to question this further but don't lose track or set yourself back if you're wanting to get a grip on this.

Quote from: Stash on October 11, 2020, 04:27:40 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 10, 2020, 11:38:00 PM

Quote from: Themightykabool on October 09, 2020, 12:29:25 AM

Please show us the stacking system and why sponges only stack vertically.
You claim they stack side-side as our SEALED (yss, stash, it should be sealed) box example and show how the man inside can be prsssed up against the wall.

Now look at that and think of it all under a dome in stead of the pyramid.
This is as simple as I can put it.

Ok, I can go with the sealed box.

- Fat guy & skinny guy in the sealed, we'll say, iron box standing together on the left side of the see saw
- Temp is the same inside and out. It will get hotter in the box from body temp, but they just got sealed in, so it's the same
- As well, pressure is same inside the box as out outside

- Fat guy starts to walk up the seesaw to the other side. In doing so, the skinny guy's side starts to raise up
- Fat guy gets to the end of the right side, he is now lowered down at ground level having raised skinny guy's side up

Does the outside the box atmosphere impart anything on the inside of the box atmosphere to cause the fat guy to sink and the skinny guy to rise?

If so, how? How does the outside stack have any influence on what's happening inside the sealed box?

Ok, first of all you need to understand about atmospheric displacement by dense mass.
I know you think you do but in this case...(my denpressure) you miss major points and it's setting you back.

Do you agree the fat person displacees more atmosphere than the skinny person? I'm sure you'll answer, yes.

And by me assuming you do agree to that, you can also understand how the fat person's displacement of air inside that box will be much more than the skinny person, so his movement on that see saw will create a pressure difference wherever he moves...always by his own dense body mass of displacement of that air.
This means the pressure he displacees is all back onto hm, meaning the skinny person will not only feel the displacement of the longer part of the see saw plank but will do so with the fat person's dense mass displacement of air, added to that point.

It stands to reason that the fat guy is going to push against more of the air than the skinny guy who will displace
less...or push against less...whichever way you want to see it.

I'm following and yes, the fat guy displaces more than the skinny guy. But, that displacement doesn't necessarily mean a 'down' pressure. It just means the fat guy takes up more space and moves around the more of the internal atmosphere in the box than the skinny guy. Why does the fat guy lower and the skinny raise?

As well, you didn't answer the other question, how does the outside stack have any influence on what's happening inside the sealed box? Or maybe it doesn't. But I thought you've contended that is does and I don't see how.

Quote from: Stash

Bonus question. The Action Lab guy posted a new vacuum experiment. Feather versus a coin. He shows how they both fall at the same rate in a near vacuum. How does dp account for this?

Skip to 1:45 to see the experiment:

If you take a look at my simple and crude air stacking diagram you will see the circles (atmosphere) become bigger. This would be representative of the so called vacuum (low pressure).

The fact that the bottom of the stack is very dense and in greater numbers of circles, you can see how they will create massive resistance to anything falling through, meaning a coin and a feather would react massively different upon encountering this resistance. The coin being much more dense and being able to displace  much more of the atmosphere and so, a bigger push against resistance, whereas the feather does not have that same dense mass to push through.


However....we get to your so called vacuum (low pressure)......the larger circles are all that's in that chamber and there is not the same dense mass of atmosphere (air) in that heavily evacuated chamber.

This means the coin will still fall fast but the feather will also encounter massive change in resistance to its own dense mass....meaning, it will much more easily push through it due to the weak resistance of the more expanded matter (atmosphere) under it.

I was careful to say 'near vacuum'.
The question is, how do the feather and the coin fall at the same rate in the near vacuum. They both drop like stones. Yet one is far more dense than the other and displaces far more atmosphere than the other. I thought displacement was a force that somehow drives things down. As in the seesaw box experiment.

Quote from: sceptimatic

Ok, first of all you need to understand about atmospheric displacement by dense mass.
I know you think you do but in this case...(my denpressure) you miss major points and it's setting you back.

Do you agree the fat person displacees more atmosphere than the skinny person? I'm sure you'll answer, yes.

And by me assuming you do agree to that, you can also understand how the fat person's displacement of air inside that box will be much more than the skinny person, so his movement on that see saw will create a pressure difference wherever he moves...always by his own dense body mass of displacement of that air.
This means the pressure he displacees is all back onto hm, meaning the skinny person will not only feel the displacement of the longer part of the see saw plank but will do so with the fat person's dense mass displacement of air, added to that point.

It stands to reason that the fat guy is going to push against more of the air than the skinny guy who will displace
less...or push against less...whichever way you want to see it.

I'm following and yes, the fat guy displaces more than the skinny guy. But, that displacement doesn't necessarily mean a 'down' pressure. It just means the fat guy takes up more space and moves around the more of the internal atmosphere in the box than the skinny guy. Why does the fat guy lower and the skinny raise?

You need to get your head around the stacking system. It is present in all cases.

As well, you didn't answer the other question, how does the outside stack have any influence on what's happening inside the sealed box? Or maybe it doesn't. But I thought you've contended that is does and I don't see how.

The box is in the atmosphere. It is under the stacking system and using the denser atmospheric mass or the actual ground (in this case) as its foundation, meaning it always sits immersed in the stack, whether the stack is the box's own displacement of atmosphere by its own dense mass (thickness).

So, basically you can accept that the box sits on the ground at the bottom of the stack of atmosphere.
It has displaced that atmosphere in the stack by (like I said) the thickness of its walls, minus the porosity and the actual volume inside, not to mention the dense mass already in it wth the people and see saw.

Anything displaced is transferred back onto the box, just like you jumping into a pool. You would displace the water you are in and that water would rise and channel that pressure right back onto you.

Same with atmosphere.

This creates a pressure on the box in different places due to it being immersed in the stack. Can you see this?

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 11, 2020, 11:45:46 PM

Quote from: Stash

Bonus question. The Action Lab guy posted a new vacuum experiment. Feather versus a coin. He shows how they both fall at the same rate in a near vacuum. How does dp account for this?

Skip to 1:45 to see the experiment:

If you take a look at my simple and crude air stacking diagram you will see the circles (atmosphere) become bigger. This would be representative of the so called vacuum (low pressure).

The fact that the bottom of the stack is very dense and in greater numbers of circles, you can see how they will create massive resistance to anything falling through, meaning a coin and a feather would react massively different upon encountering this resistance. The coin being much more dense and being able to displace  much more of the atmosphere and so, a bigger push against resistance, whereas the feather does not have that same dense mass to push through.


However....we get to your so called vacuum (low pressure)......the larger circles are all that's in that chamber and there is not the same dense mass of atmosphere (air) in that heavily evacuated chamber.

This means the coin will still fall fast but the feather will also encounter massive change in resistance to its own dense mass....meaning, it will much more easily push through it due to the weak resistance of the more expanded matter (atmosphere) under it.

I was careful to say 'near vacuum'.
The question is, how do the feather and the coin fall at the same rate in the near vacuum. They both drop like stones. Yet one is far more dense than the other and displaces far more atmosphere than the other. I thought displacement was a force that somehow drives things down. As in the seesaw box experiment.

The only way anything can fall is if there's a pressure to do that, no matter what that pressure is.

In terms of the coin, it displaces the atmosphere it is put in, whether it's flat to the floor up up on it's edge...or up in the air and released.
The coin will always sit within the stack of where it is placed.
Keep looking the the crude picture to see what I'm saying.

As long that the coin has pressure above, no matter how small, it can be pushed against and the rate of fall is dependent on how much below resistance to it, there is.

The feather is the same and both will appear to fall at the same time over a short distance in a low pressure environment but over a larger distance you would see the coin advance much quicker.

Quote from: Stash on October 12, 2020, 12:01:13 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic

Ok, first of all you need to understand about atmospheric displacement by dense mass.
I know you think you do but in this case...(my denpressure) you miss major points and it's setting you back.

Do you agree the fat person displacees more atmosphere than the skinny person? I'm sure you'll answer, yes.

And by me assuming you do agree to that, you can also understand how the fat person's displacement of air inside that box will be much more than the skinny person, so his movement on that see saw will create a pressure difference wherever he moves...always by his own dense body mass of displacement of that air.
This means the pressure he displacees is all back onto hm, meaning the skinny person will not only feel the displacement of the longer part of the see saw plank but will do so with the fat person's dense mass displacement of air, added to that point.

It stands to reason that the fat guy is going to push against more of the air than the skinny guy who will displace
less...or push against less...whichever way you want to see it.

I'm following and yes, the fat guy displaces more than the skinny guy. But, that displacement doesn't necessarily mean a 'down' pressure. It just means the fat guy takes up more space and moves around the more of the internal atmosphere in the box than the skinny guy. Why does the fat guy lower and the skinny raise?

You need to get your head around the stacking system. It is present in all cases.

Doesn't answer "down" regardless of your diagram or what you say - The fat guy is moving horizontally, displacing atmosphere in the box as he moves. There's not enough of even an atmospheric stack inside the box to impart anything let alone to choose 'down' on his head.

Quote from: Stash

As well, you didn't answer the other question, how does the outside stack have any influence on what's happening inside the sealed box? Or maybe it doesn't. But I thought you've contended that is does and I don't see how.

The box is in the atmosphere. It is under the stacking system and using the denser atmospheric mass or the actual ground (in this case) as its foundation, meaning it always sits immersed in the stack, whether the stack is the box's own displacement of atmosphere by its own dense mass (thickness).

So, basically you can accept that the box sits on the ground at the bottom of the stack of atmosphere.
It has displaced that atmosphere in the stack by (like I said) the thickness of its walls, minus the porosity and the actual volume inside, not to mention the dense mass already in it wth the people and see saw.

Anything displaced is transferred back onto the box, just like you jumping into a pool. You would displace the water you are in and that water would rise and channel that pressure right back onto you.

Same with atmosphere.

This creates a pressure on the box in different places due to it being immersed in the stack. Can you see this?

No, that makes no sense. Anything displaced by the box is transferred back into the box? They are sealed in the box. There's no way for the outside atmosphere that is displaced by the presence of the box to somehow how get into the box and do something. How does the outside atmosphere know to do anything to the inside contents of the box? It's an impossibility.

Quote from: Stash

Quote from: sceptimatic on October 11, 2020, 11:45:46 PM

Quote from: Stash

Bonus question. The Action Lab guy posted a new vacuum experiment. Feather versus a coin. He shows how they both fall at the same rate in a near vacuum. How does dp account for this?

Skip to 1:45 to see the experiment:

If you take a look at my simple and crude air stacking diagram you will see the circles (atmosphere) become bigger. This would be representative of the so called vacuum (low pressure).

The fact that the bottom of the stack is very dense and in greater numbers of circles, you can see how they will create massive resistance to anything falling through, meaning a coin and a feather would react massively different upon encountering this resistance. The coin being much more dense and being able to displace  much more of the atmosphere and so, a bigger push against resistance, whereas the feather does not have that same dense mass to push through.


However....we get to your so called vacuum (low pressure)......the larger circles are all that's in that chamber and there is not the same dense mass of atmosphere (air) in that heavily evacuated chamber.

This means the coin will still fall fast but the feather will also encounter massive change in resistance to its own dense mass....meaning, it will much more easily push through it due to the weak resistance of the more expanded matter (atmosphere) under it.

I was careful to say 'near vacuum'.
The question is, how do the feather and the coin fall at the same rate in the near vacuum. They both drop like stones. Yet one is far more dense than the other and displaces far more atmosphere than the other. I thought displacement was a force that somehow drives things down. As in the seesaw box experiment.

The only way anything can fall is if there's a pressure to do that, no matter what that pressure is.

In terms of the coin, it displaces the atmosphere it is put in, whether it's flat to the floor up up on it's edge...or up in the air and released.
The coin will always sit within the stack of where it is placed.
Keep looking the the crude picture to see what I'm saying.

As long that the coin has pressure above, no matter how small, it can be pushed against and the rate of fall is dependent on how much below resistance to it, there is.

The feather is the same and both will appear to fall at the same time over a short distance in a low pressure environment but over a larger distance you would see the coin advance much quicker.

Why would you see the coin advance quicker over a larger distance? And what evidence do you have that that would be the case? And specifically, when would that occur? Is there a calculation for when the coin would overtake the feather in a near vacuum?

We don't see what you describe here and it's 37 meters high in a near vacuum environment - How much higher do we have to go:



That's a pretty mighty claim and requires some pretty mighty evidence. So lay it on me.