Please Explain What Earth Looks Like.

Supposedly, Earth bulges south the equator more than above, yet, the moon bulges sideways?
All things considered...
What causes that?

Just because we can measure something does not mean we know what causes it.     Oil was found by creating horizontal gravity maps by measurement over a hundred years ago.   Today we can map features under glaciers from an aeroplane using gravimeters.        A bullet falls lower when shot West than when shot East.     Even if the theory of gravity were to change the observations remain unchanged.

"Even if the theory of gravity were to change the observations remain unchanged."

So how would all those satellites and the ISS work without gravity? Would one observe them falling from the sky?

Quote from: Aliveandkicking on September 10, 2016, 02:32:36 PM

"Even if the theory of gravity were to change the observations remain unchanged."

So how would all those satellites and the ISS work without gravity? Would one observe them falling from the sky?

Aliveandkicking said nothing about being "without gravity". He said "if the theory of gravity were to change".
By "theory of gravity", presumably he means the "theory of the cause of gravity".

But "without gravity", why would they be "falling from the sky?"  Gravity is what keeps them from "flying away".

"Gravity is what keeps them from "flying away".

So would I observe them flying away?

So would I observe them flying away?

I couldn't care less what you might or might not observe. Anything I say will be twisted by your deceptive mind anyway, bye, bye.

Quote from: rabinoz on September 10, 2016, 07:27:53 PM

"Gravity is what keeps them from "flying away".

So would I observe them flying away?

Without gravity everything would fly away.
Actually the Earth wouldn't condensed from "stelar dust" in the first place.
Neither would Sun get compressed from such ammount of Hydrogen to start fusion under pressure in the core.

But if we had gravity and now we lose it, you would fly away from Earth together with all of us and everything else.
Centrifugal force would spread everything around in the shape of ever-stretching disc.

Quote from: Aliveandkicking on September 10, 2016, 02:32:36 PM

"Even if the theory of gravity were to change the observations remain unchanged."

So how would all those satellites and the ISS work without gravity? Would one observe them falling from the sky?

Apples fall to the ground with our without Gravity.   Nobody needs to know what Gravity is.  The observations that matter were made a very long time ago.

Just because we can measure something does not mean we know what causes it.     Oil was found by creating horizontal "gravity" maps by measurement over a hundred years ago.   Today we can map features under glaciers from an aeroplane using "gravi"meters.        A bullet falls lower when shot West than when shot East.     Even if the theory of "gravity" were to change the observations remain unchanged.

Quote from: rabinoz on September 10, 2016, 07:27:53 PM

"Gravity is what keeps them from "flying away".

So would I observe them flying away?

Unless you have a very low IQ you are shown yet again to be lying.   The meaning of what I said was sufficiently clear and Rabinoz went on to explain his (correct) interpretation of what I said where your answer reflects stupidity or another one of your lies.

Why is it necessary for you to be seen to be lying and cheating during these conversations?   Why are you so strongly refusing to allow reality to be revealed to you or childishly pretending what is commonly observed is impossible?   We all know things fall to the ground.

Quote from: Aliveandkicking on September 10, 2016, 02:32:36 PM

"Even if the theory of gravity were to change the observations remain unchanged."

So how would all those satellites and the ISS work without gravity? Would one observe them falling from the sky?

Nobody needs to know what "gravity" is.   Attacking the theory of gravity, as if it can posssibly change anything whatsoever,  is just a typical shit for brains flat earth response to attempt to create a personal private reality which makes no sense whatsoever.   

Woah there Mr. Insults! The government might be reading your posts!
Allow me to explain the necessity for the simple questions.
Keep an open mind, but say, if the "theory of gravity" was changed,
Entirely new laws of physics explained why things go up, and must come down.
Upon that instance, it would become clear that "orbiting" via "gravity" is impossible.
Please explain what would keep satellites flying around us in constant circles?

"Nobody needs to know what "gravity" is."

"We all know things fall to the ground."

Woah there Mr. Insults! The government might be reading your posts!
Allow me to explain the necessity for the simple questions.
Keep an open mind, but say, if the "theory of gravity" was changed,
Entirely new laws of physics explained why things go up, and must come down.
Upon that instance, it would become clear that "orbiting" via "gravity" is impossible.
Please explain what would keep satellites flying around us in constant circles?

Quote from: Aliveandkicking on September 10, 2016, 09:25:39 PM

"Nobody needs to know what "gravity" is."

"We all know things fall to the ground."

Try Google first: a lot of info for uneducated kids, like you. What about this for the beginning?:
http://www.universetoday.com/93077/how-satellites-stay-in-orbit/

Oops! Sorry. I've just checked your profile, you are not so kid. But look/feel so young anyway...

You ask what if gravity did not exist? Probably we would not exist.

I think it fair to say that we know what gravitation does and we know how to calculate it's effect quite accurately.
It has been measured and demonstrated quite sufficiently to be confident of its reality.

We can calculate the effect of the moon and sun's gravitation (it is not at all as simple as it looks) and get quite good agreement with the diurnal gravitation measured.

But, we are not yet sure of its underlying cause. I certainly won't claim to know.

if the "theory of gravity" was changed,
 explain what would keep satellites flying around us in constant circles?

Quote from: Aliveandkicking on September 10, 2016, 09:25:39 PM

"Nobody needs to know what "gravity" is."

"We all know things fall to the ground."

What aspect of this simple truth is beyond your comprehension??

You ask what if gravity did not exist? Probably we would not exist.

He is not saying things do not fall to the ground.

He is saying if the modern theory of gravity was wrong, then (somehow) our observed reality would change.   Ie he is claiming what we in fact know by observation is something calculated or claimed to be true because of claims made by a a theory.

Yes he is talking complete shite but it seems he believes what he is saying.

So using his logic if the theory of gravity is wrong then (for some reason) a satellite would not be in free fall around the Earth and it would fly off into space, even though we all know things fall to the ground,   so by this strange twisted untrue logic the only evidence for satellites is a theory.

Yes it is totally fucked up but that is what he appears to be saying.

You ask what if gravity did not exist? Probably we would not exist.

Laughing out loud.

He is saying if the modern theory of gravity was wrong, then (somehow) our observed reality would change.

I never said that.

So using his logic if the theory of gravity is wrong then (for some reason) a satellite would not be in free fall around the Earth and it would fly off into space, even though we all know things fall to the ground

Its one of those two options. Without "gravity", things must either fall or rise. There is no "perfect orbit".

Quite simply I am stating that we are being lied to, and satellites are not what we are told.

Quote from: rabinoz on September 10, 2016, 11:26:44 PM

You ask what if gravity did not exist? Probably we would not exist.

Laughing out loud.

Quote from: Aliveandkicking on September 10, 2016, 11:58:30 PM

He is saying if the modern theory of gravity was wrong, then (somehow) our observed reality would change.

I never said that.

Quote from: Aliveandkicking on September 10, 2016, 11:58:30 PM

So using his logic if the theory of gravity is wrong then (for some reason) a satellite would not be in free fall around the Earth and it would fly off into space, even though we all know things fall to the ground

Its one of those two options. Without "gravity", things must either fall or rise. There is no "perfect orbit".

Quite simply I am stating that we are being lied to, and satellites are not what we are told.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

We know things fall. 

>>Its one of those two options. Without "gravity", things must either fall or rise. There is no "perfect orbit".

What are you talking about?

"An object in motion continues in motion with the same speed and in the same direction unless acted upon by an unbalanced force."

http://teachertech.rice.edu/Participants/louviere/Newton/law1.html

"These forces of inertia and gravity have to be perfectly balanced for an orbit to happen"

An object with a lot of mass goes forward and wants to keep going forward; however, the gravity of another body in space pulls it in. There is a continuous tug-of-war between the one object wanting to go forward and away and the other wanting to pull it in.

"If inertia or momentum is much weaker than the pull of gravity, the object will be pulled into the other one completely and crash."

http://www.qrg.northwestern.edu/projects/vss/docs/space-environment/1-what-causes-an-orbit.html

How can there be a "perfect balance" if the forces of "gravity" are constantly pulling "orbiting" objects toward Earth?
On top of that, what gives a satellite unlimited momentum to combat said forces of "gravity"?
Why don't the forces of "gravity" slow down objects after a while, causing them to crash?

Quote

"An object in motion continues in motion with the same speed and in the same direction unless acted upon by an unbalanced force."

http://teachertech.rice.edu/Participants/louviere/Newton/law1.html

Quote

"These forces of inertia and gravity have to be perfectly balanced for an orbit to happen"

An object with a lot of mass goes forward and wants to keep going forward; however, the gravity of another body in space pulls it in. There is a continuous tug-of-war between the one object wanting to go forward and away and the other wanting to pull it in.

"If inertia or momentum is much weaker than the pull of gravity, the object will be pulled into the other one completely and crash."

http://www.qrg.northwestern.edu/projects/vss/docs/space-environment/1-what-causes-an-orbit.html

How can there be a "perfect balance" if the forces of "gravity" are constantly pulling "orbiting" objects toward Earth?
On top of that, what gives a satellite unlimited momentum to combat said forces of "gravity"?
Why don't the forces of "gravity" slow down objects after a while, causing them to crash?

The idea or orbiting is very simple.  The hard part is the technological challenges of building the equipment.

If you go too fast then you leave Earth because you have escaped the 'pull of the Earth'

If you go too slow then you crash back to Earth.

>>On top of that, what gives a satellite unlimited momentum to combat said forces of "gravity"?

A satellite does not have "unlimited momentum".   It just needs sufficient momentum so it can travel around the Earth before it is pulled back to Earth

>>Why don't the forces of "gravity" slow down objects after a while, causing them to crash?

The pull of the Earth has no ability to slow you down.   You get slowed down by passing thru the atmosphere or other matter that is in your way.

Just a quick observation.....

It has come to me the possibility that n30 might be the heiwa of flat earth.

Argue at your own peril...

Remember wrestle with a pig and both will get dirty...but the pig loves it

Just a quick observation.....

It has come to me the possibility that n30 might be the heiwa of flat earth.

Argue at your own peril...

Remember wrestle with a pig and both will get dirty...but the pig loves it

Thanks.  I can see what is going on.  The unknown part is whether or not the undesirable behaviour is going to continue or at least remain at a managable level to enable a fact based conversation between adults

It just needs sufficient momentum so it can travel around the Earth before it is pulled back to Earth.

So when does it get pulled back to Earth?

The pull of the Earth has no ability to slow you down. You get slowed down by passing thru the atmosphere or other matter that is in your way.

If an astronaut jumps on the moon, because of the lack of atmosphere, they should fly away?

"...The lunar atmosphere has less than 1,000,000 molecules in the same volume. That still sounds like a lot, but it is what we consider to be a very good vacuum on Earth."

https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/LADEE/news/lunar-atmosphere.html#.V9W1_-YrKRs

Quote from: Aliveandkicking on September 11, 2016, 12:23:35 PM

It just needs sufficient momentum so it can travel around the Earth before it is pulled back to Earth.

So when does it get pulled back to Earth?

Space is not a perfect vacuum. There are small particles in the near vacuum. As these particles strike the satellite, it decelerates slowly. If the satellite is slowed sufficiently, it will eventually collide with the earth.

The pull of the Earth has no ability to slow you down. You get slowed down by passing thru the atmosphere or other matter that is in your way.

If an astronaut jumps on the moon, because of the lack of atmosphere, they should fly away?[/quote]

If he jumps at escape velocity, yes.

Pretty sure he was talking about orbits, though. I suggest you learn Newton's First Law.

Quote from: Aliveandkicking on September 11, 2016, 12:23:35 PM

It just needs sufficient momentum so it can travel around the Earth before it is pulled back to Earth.

So when does it get pulled back to Earth?

Quote from: Aliveandkicking on September 11, 2016, 12:23:35 PM

The pull of the Earth has no ability to slow you down. You get slowed down by passing thru the atmosphere or other matter that is in your way.

If an astronaut jumps on the moon, because of the lack of atmosphere, they should fly away?

Quote

"...The lunar atmosphere has less than 1,000,000 molecules in the same volume. That still sounds like a lot, but it is what we consider to be a very good vacuum on Earth."

https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/LADEE/news/lunar-atmosphere.html#.V9W1_-YrKRs

The lengths you go to avoid reality are most odd.

You know you were talking about orbits, so cheating again by talking about humans jumping a few feet is supposed to achieve what exactly?   

Or perhaps this is like a computer game to you,  and getting me to keep replying just gives you a hard on like you have nothing better to do with your life other than masturbate in public?

Quote from: Aliveandkicking on September 11, 2016, 12:23:35 PM

It just needs sufficient momentum so it can travel around the Earth before it is pulled back to Earth.

So when does it get pulled back to Earth?

Quote from: Aliveandkicking on September 11, 2016, 12:23:35 PM

The pull of the Earth has no ability to slow you down. You get slowed down by passing thru the atmosphere or other matter that is in your way.

If an astronaut jumps on the moon, because of the lack of atmosphere, they should fly away?

Quote

"...The lunar atmosphere has less than 1,000,000 molecules in the same volume. That still sounds like a lot, but it is what we consider to be a very good vacuum on Earth."

https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/LADEE/news/lunar-atmosphere.html#.V9W1_-YrKRs

Question for you: Are you a complete idiot or an incomplete idiot? Yes or no, please!

Quote from: Aliveandkicking on September 11, 2016, 12:23:35 PM

It just needs sufficient momentum so it can travel around the Earth before it is pulled back to Earth.

So when does it get pulled back to Earth?

When it loses speed and centrifugal force becomes lower than gravitational pull.

Quote from: Aliveandkicking on September 11, 2016, 12:23:35 PM

The pull of the Earth has no ability to slow you down. You get slowed down by passing thru the atmosphere or other matter that is in your way.

If an astronaut jumps on the moon, because of the lack of atmosphere, they should fly away?

Lack of atmosphere would not slow him down, but Moon's gravity would pull him back.
If Moon was smooth, and he could run fast enough (about 1.4 kilometers per second),
he would eventually start orbiting Moon at the altitude of foot or two.

So let me get this straight. The pull of gravity cannot slow me down. It is only the atmosphere.
Unless there is an atmosphere, say, around the ISS, one would fly away if they jumped off right?
Now, why not on the moon? If gravity is not what slows them down, what brings them back to the surface?

So let me get this straight. The pull of gravity cannot slow me down. It is only the atmosphere.
Unless there is an atmosphere, say, around the ISS, one would fly away if they jumped off right?
Now, why not on the moon? If gravity is not what slows them down, what brings them back to the surface?

You mix two things.
(Deliberately?)

Gravity pulls vertically, so it can't slow down orbiting things horizontally.
Those two directions are perpendicular.

If you jump on Moon, you move verticaly, against gravity that pulls you back.
If Moon had smooth surface, and you run there 1500 yards per second, you will eventualy
gain enough centrifugal force to start orbiting Moon at the altitude of foot or two.

If you jump on ISS where you already have centrifugal force to counter gravity,
then your jump just adds a bit MORE to speed that you ALREADY HAVE.
Unless you jump from ISS towards Earth, in which case you fall to the ground.

~~~~~

One more detail:

When you orbit Earth or Moon, you move in circle,
but in every point of circle the tangent is perpendicular to vertical
(and vertical is toward center of gravity of Earth or Moon that you orbit).
So, in your orbiting circle, you are in every point moving horizontally.

EDIT: Jumping from ISS up or down to fly away or fall to the ground is beyond human abilities.
Same as running 1500 yards per second on Moon.
In ordinary case you will only separate from the ISS and on your personal orbit you will start to oscillate around ISS orbit.
Jumping forward or backward would slightly expand or compress your personal orbit on the other side of it.
Jumping aside would slightly change the angle of your personal orbit.

So let me get this straight. The pull of gravity cannot slow me down. It is only the atmosphere.
Unless there is an atmosphere, say, around the ISS, one would fly away if they jumped off right?
Now, why not on the moon? If gravity is not what slows them down, what brings them back to the surface?

The conversation has become muddled up.   I was attempting to simplify something which is not simple, where you wonderered why the pull of the earth did not cause a satellite to slow down so it crashed to the Earth.

>> So let me get this straight.   The pull of gravity cannot slow me down. It is only the atmosphere.

That would only be true for a perfectly round orbit. No orbits are perfectly round.

If your distance to the Earth is increasing you will slow down.  If your distance is decreasing you will speed up.   Most orbits are not perfectly round.  The satellite is not going to be travelling at a constant speed because the pull of the earth will slow it down and then speed it up as the distance to the Earth varies

The pull of the Earth cannot by itself create some force that will slow the satellite down so it crashes to the Earth unless the orbit is totally messed up, so the satellite passes very close to the Earth and the Earth slows it down by collision.

>>why not on the moon? If gravity is not what slows them down, what brings them back to the surface? 

As explained above.  If the satellites distance from the Earth increases it will slow down, when the distance decreases it will speed up.  The pull of the Earth  cannot end the orbit by slowing down the satellite unless the path of the orbit leads to the Surface of the Earth, where the surface of the Earth, or the atmosphere, stops the satellite.

>>Unless there is an atmosphere, say, around the ISS, one would fly away if they jumped off right?

You cannot leave the pull of the Earth or return to the surface of the Earth with the puny force created by jumping from the ISS.    You need to be orbiting the earth at over 40,000kmph to escape the pull of the Earth.  The ISS is moving at 28,000kmph.  You can move thousands of miles away from the ISS by jumping but you cannot move to a significantly higher or lower altitude by using the puny force created by jumping.   

There is a simple relationship between stable orbital velocity and orbital height.   The near Earth ISS goes around the Earth every 90 minutes.   The GPS satellites orbit only once per day and are 20,000km further away from the Earth than the ISS.   The geostationary satellites orbit only once per day and are 35,000km further from the Earth than the ISS.    To change altitude you also need to change velocity.  If you jump directly upwards from the ISS there is no force being created to take you to the height of a geostationary satellite.  Likewise if you jump downwards towards the Earth there is no force being created that can take you back to the Earth.   All that is going to happen is the shape of your orbit will change slightly.

The satellite is not going to be travelling at a constant speed because the pull of the earth will slow it down and then speed it up as the distance to the Earth varies

What gives a satellite more speed after being slowed down? So, now gravity can speed things up?

Quote from: Aliveandkicking on September 11, 2016, 11:00:52 PM

The satellite is not going to be travelling at a constant speed because the pull of the earth will slow it down and then speed it up as the distance to the Earth varies

What gives a satellite more speed after being slowed down? So, now gravity can speed things up?

If you can produce an intelligent response which acknowledges you read my previous response and does not seek to just waste more of my time I will reply.

You have been playing games now for days on end.   I have had enough of your stupidity.   Only if you can act like an adult will I continue to respond to you.

Why is Earth officially defined as on oblate spheroid wider south of equatorial locations, making a pear shape.
As far as I have seen no photo from "space" shows this.
Keep in mind that mathematics cannot ignore such imperfections.
Ergo, all equations assuming Earth is a sphere must be re evaluated.

Unless Scientific American is lying, Earth is not even a perfect oblate spheroid.
Please explain why large errors and approximations are accepted as true for calculating the shape of our planet.

"Our globe, however, is not even a perfect oblate spheroid, because mass is distributed unevenly within the planet. The greater a concentration of mass is, the stronger its gravitational pull, "creating bumps around the globe,"

Above quote from - http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/earth-is-not-round/

Here is a website that specifically bashes flat Earthers, yet, assumes the Earth is a perfect sphere in its calculations.

https://chizzlewit.wordpress.com/2015/05/13/working-with-the-curvaure-of-a-spherical-earth/

the difference is measurable but too small to be seen with the naked eye.  IIRC the difference between circumference around the equator versus over the poles is less than 1%

Quote from: Aliveandkicking on September 11, 2016, 11:00:52 PM

The satellite is not going to be travelling at a constant speed because the pull of the earth will slow it down and then speed it up as the distance to the Earth varies

What gives a satellite more speed after being slowed down? So, now gravity can speed things up?

That's correct. A body in an elliptical orbit will speed up as it gets closer to the planet and slow down as it moves away. In both cases this is caused by gravity accelerating it in the direction of the planet.

The speeding up and slowing down balance out so the body's average speed won't change over time unless it meets some other resistance.