People on skateboards.

Santa says:

The combustion chamber of a rocket is open to the near-infinite vacuum of space.

Therefore, no gas can even be meaningfully said to exist within it, let alone combust.

Any gas introduced therein when the pressurised fuel tank leading to the combustion chamber is opened will simply expand freely into the enormous, zero-pressure vacuum, following the path of least resistance & doing no work whatsoever.

This will continue for as long as the fuel tank & chamber are open to the vacuum, until both exterior & interior pressures are equalised at zero.

It is a beautifully simple concept, fully supported by All the laws of physics, yet you 'round earthers' (lol!) just can't seem to grasp it...


Plus this:

You all claim that the recoil of a gun is a valid analogy for how a rocket works in a vacuum.

Here is why it is not:

With a gun you have object A, the mass of the gun; the expanding propellant, P, the gunpowder, sited between them; and object B, the mass of the bullet.

But with a rocket you ONLY have object A, the mass of the rocket,  & the expanding propellant, P, the fuel.

No object B, see?

Thus, you have removed the necessary recoil mass required to produce motion.

But we know a rocket DOES produce motion, don't we?

Ergo, some other mass MUST be taking the place of object B.

& the ONLY possibility for that other mass is the Atmosphere.

Ergo, NO atmosphere, NO motion; rockets CANNOT function in a vacuum.

Q.E.D.

No matter how hard you try to spin it, cultists, every child knows that You cannot Push on Nothing.

No maths required; only common sense.


Then there's the fact that you are all trying desperately to confine this 'debate' to the wrong branch of physics, i.e. Solid Mechanics rather than Fluid Mechanics...

Kinda dishonest of you, dontcha think?

Pressure-Gradient Forces, Gas Laws, Fluid Mechanics, Continuum Assumption & Joules Expansion are the areas I suggest neutral readers research.

Oh; & Thermodynamics too - thanks for that, markjo!

Flow, my tears, the thought-policeman said...

Good try but a rocket will push on its own fuel in the vacuum of space. let me explain.

Let's illustrate with an example you kids can try at home. First, you need to get yourself into some sort of frictionless situation. Wearing ice skates on a slippery ice rink would be good, or maybe your office has a chair that rolls really well on a hard surface. Next, you'll need a medicine ball. You are the rocket and the medicine ball is your fuel. Toss the medicine ball. You'll notice that as you shove the medicine ball forwards, you yourself lurch backwards. Ta-da, the miracle of physics! (If you think this is because the medicine ball pushed on the air, then try the experiment without the medicine ball--just push on the air with your hands, see how far you lurch backwards.)

Newton's Third Law is usually expressed as, "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction," and you can also think of it as "Forces always come in pairs." While you are pushing on the medicine ball, Newton's Third Law says that the medicine ball is also pushing on you. Thus, you are accelerated by the force acting (backward) on you by the medicine ball. Never mind that it was you who decided to start the pushing in the first place; you can't push on the ball without having the ball push back. Forces always come in pairs.

Of course, rockets work on more sophisticated principles than just tossing fuel out the back. First, the fuel is burned and its hot exhaust gases are expelled at very high velocity (if you toss the medicine ball faster, your body experiences greater backward force). And the rocket's exhaust nozzle has a narrowing so as to squirt the exhaust gasses out even faster, like putting your thumb over the end of a garden hose. Exhaust from chemical propulsion (i.e., fuel-burning propulsion) is typically expelled at 2 km/s (= 4500 mph), and your average rocket mass at launch is 80-85% propellant (fuel + oxidizer), most of which eventually gets squirted out.

Thus for example a Delta II rocket can send a 1800 kg payload into geosynchronous orbit, using about 200,000 kg of propellant. The total rocket at launch would have a mass of about 232,000 kg. That's a lot of fuel! This is because 2 km/s (= 4500 mph) is considered "low" speed in Rocket World, so you have to achieve thrust by squirting lots of mass. If you could squirt something even faster out the back of the rocket, you could get more thrust with less fuel, and therefore send heavier payloads.

This is where electric propulsion succeeds. Electrostatic propulsion, also called ion propulsion, uses what amounts to a small particle accelerator to shove fuel particles out the back of a rocket, providing exhaust velocities of 100 km/s (=220,000 mph).

So you can see that rocket science isn't really all that difficult.

The question you should be asking is: How does a dilithium-powered anti-matter warp drive work?

Neat experiment. Those medicine balls are fun.

It doesn't matter what you say, he is too uneducated to listen.

#" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">! No longer available

Conservation of momentum is how rocket work.
When the fuel reacts, the exhaust heats up and expands, so it is pushed out the exhaust hole.
This exhaust that leaves has momentum, so the rocket must gain momentum in the opposite direction. Where else could the momentum opposing the exhaust gas be.

Conservation of momentum is how rocket work.
When the fuel reacts, the exhaust heats up and expands, so it is pushed out the exhaust hole.
This exhaust that leaves has momentum, so the rocket must gain momentum in the opposite direction. Where else could the momentum opposing the exhaust gas be.

You people refuse to accept an atmospheric barrier to the expanded burning fuel don;t you? and prefer to just believe the fuel can burn inside the rocket and somehow push it up with no aid from anything below it.

Absolute crazy. I honestly don't think you people can ever be helped.

What is "don;t"?

What aid is required? Is it the "atmospheric stacking"? "Pressure gradient"? Some other mechanism?

You people refuse to accept an atmospheric barrier to the expanded burning fuel don;t you?

What does that even mean? 

and prefer to just believe the fuel can burn inside the rocket and somehow push it up with no aid from anything below it.

Yes, because that's what Newton's laws of motion and conservation of momentum clearly support.

Absolute crazy. I honestly don't think you people can ever be helped.

That's how many of us feel about you too.

I give up, you FEtards don't understand how a rocket works, because if there is nothing to push off how could it work, WOW soo smarts.
What is pushing the FE upwards if there is nothing underneath.

I really think more of you should read the OP again to find the mentality of the originator of the thread:

Here is a thread for satanic sci-fi cultists to post photos/videos of people on skateboards that they think somehow prove that rockets will function in a vacuum.

Newton, Joules & Thomson will be spinning in their graves at such nonsense, but I guess these cultists are too satanically brainwashed to comprehend how basic scientific principles work...

Whatever; knock yourselves out, psychos!

Who can argue with someone so psychotic? Nuff, said!

I've read all of what Papa Legba said and it makes perfect sense. It makes perfect sense because he knows what the reality is and does not fall for fantasy scientific shenanigans.

You people have the ability to copy what you read as long as it's official. You refuse to read anything that goes against it because it scares you.

I'll be more than happy to study a set of equation showing how thrust changes with altitude but u still haven't provided one

I'll be more than happy to study a set of equation showing how thrust changes with altitude but u still haven't provided one

The problem with you people is that you believe equations are the answer to any issue  and you cannot use basic logic to see the basic truth.

Now when you want to work out fuel and distance ratios in the real world, then fair enough, do your equations.
When trying to grasp the reality of rocket propulsion then you have to use your common sense and not rely on fictional books that all parrot the same thing about it.

I've read all of what Papa Legba said and it makes perfect sense. It makes perfect sense because he knows what the reality is and does not fall for fantasy scientific shenanigans.

You people have the ability to copy what you read as long as it's official. You refuse to read anything that goes against it because it scares you.

Do you know what conservation of momentum is, that's reality, that's how rocket work, nothing to do with pushing off something.
Ill explain it,
You have someone floating in a vacuum, they are holding a metal ball. If they throw the ball infront of them, that ball will of gained momentum, where does the momentum to counter the ball's go? To the man who then gains momentum in the opposite direction. Otherwise momentum would not a conserved.

Quote from: sceptimatic on December 28, 2015, 01:22:55 AM

I've read all of what Papa Legba said and it makes perfect sense. It makes perfect sense because he knows what the reality is and does not fall for fantasy scientific shenanigans.

You people have the ability to copy what you read as long as it's official. You refuse to read anything that goes against it because it scares you.

Do you know what conservation of momentum is, that's reality, that's how rocket work, nothing to do with pushing off something.
Ill explain it,
You have someone floating in a vacuum, they are holding a metal ball. If they throw the ball infront of them, that ball will of gained momentum, where does the momentum to counter the ball's go? To the man who then gains momentum in the opposite direction. Otherwise momentum would not a conserved.

Let's see if you're willing to use your brain.

We will use your floating man and ball.
Now I'm going to put something to you and I do not want magical answers from you  unless you can logically explain them to make sense.

Ok, so the man and ball are in space and floating. He throws the ball in front of him. In order for him to do this he MUST have some leverage to allow him to achieve this.

I believe this part is where you will be scratching your head because your belief is that he will not need any leverage and he can simply throw that ball.

Let me see if I can make this easier for you - well, if not for you - at least to those who are willing to understand it.

A man on the ground throwing a ball has the mass of that ball adding to the mass of himself against the ground. The reason for this is because he picked up that extra mass from the ground which is now repelling more atmospheric pressure.

He now has to throw that ball and he does so by using his LEGS and FEET as a leverage to allow him to propel this ball. He can throw it a great distance doing this.

Now let's change it a little and place this man on a skateboard with the same ball. He goes to throw it and what happens?
He throws the ball but the leverage he once had against the ground is now lessened due to the wheels on the skateboard not creating enough solid leverage on the ground.
You find that his throw is nowhere near as good to launch this ball through a barrier of air resistance and you see him roll back a little.

Now imagine this person floating 1 foot off the floor and holding the same ball. He has no leverage at all. He can bring his arm back to launch that ball but in order for him to do that he needs some leverage to propel it and he has absolutely none.

So what  happens in reality?
It should be obvious to those that do not fall for the mass in space bullshit.
He simply cannot launch the ball. He is stuck to that ball.

All people have to do is switch on their common sense brains to see how simple reality is against the absolute bullshit fantasy of space and it's floating crap.

Wrong, wrong, wrong and wrong. Im not scraching my head Im hiting it again a wall in frustation at your stupidity. Leverage is not needed, you dont understand physics. In space you muscles will still work, so you can hold a ball and move it forward, as you are moving it forward you can let go of it.
Why would muscles not work in space. Does someone falling with a parachute move there arms slower than someone on the ground.

Wrong, wrong, wrong and wrong. Im not scraching my head Im hiting it again a wall in frustation at your stupidity. Leverage is not needed, you dont understand physics. In space you muscles will still work, so you can hold a ball and move it forward, as you are moving it forward you can let go of it.
Why would muscles not work in space. Does someone falling with a parachute move there arms slower than someone on the ground.

As I said earlier. People need to engage their brains. You clearly refused to engage it and went on a rant without knowing what you are talking about, except to parrot what you read officially and unconditionally adhere to.

Hopefully sensible people will read what I wrote.

Leverage with the ground isn't needed to throw a ball, it does stop the backwards momentum from throwing the ball moving you backwards.
How come I can jump up and throw a ball in the air.
And why wouldn't muscles work in space.

"In order for him to do this he MUST have some leverage to allow him to achieve this" no he doesn't, he just needs working muscles.
"He now has to throw that ball and he does so by using his LEGS and FEET as a leverage to allow him to propel this ball. He can throw it a great distance doing this."
No, his legs and feet stop him from being knocked back by the momentum, instead passing it onto the ground.
You have no evidence for your leverage statement, but conservation of momentum is a proven fact. If you are right about leverage then I wouldn't be able to throw something while jumping.

Leverage with the ground isn't needed to throw a ball, it does stop the backwards momentum from throwing the ball moving you backwards.
How come I can jump up and throw a ball in the air.
And why wouldn't muscles work in space.

You can jump up and throw a ball in the air because you are using atmospheric pressure as your leverage, only you won't get as much leverage as opposed to your entire body being pushed to the deck by it's own mass acting against the atmosphere and the actual solid ground.

And muscles clearly couldn't work in your space but that's not what we're arguing about, so let's pretend they can in your fantasy  near vacuum.

I want you to seriously think about what I say here. I very much doubt you will. In fact I'm 100% sure you will just go total cloud cuckoo but I'll hang onto the hope that real people with real brains can see the reality.

Ok, get a large board; say: a 4x4 foot ply-board. Stand on a skate-board and throw that ply-board away from you and see how far you're repelled backwards. You'll find that it's quite a bit if your skate-board is on a hard smooth surface with good wheels.

So what happened?
It depends on who you ask. You can ask a severely indoctrinated naive person who will tell you that the mass of the board is what propelled you but a little help from air resistance due to the surface area of that board.

Try the same thing in water and tell me what repels you?

Let's take the board into fantasy space, held onto by magical floating man on his skate-board.
As we can see, the skate-board is useless because there's no floor.
The man standing on that skate-board can exert no pressure upon the board nor can the board exert any back. Basically his feet are touching the board as the board is touching his feet.
He holds the 4x4 board and realises that he feels no force against his muscles because that board is also floating just like he is.
His arms are bent as if he is about to launch the board away from him, so how does he do this.

If you think he can just push his arms out and release the board you  have to understand action/reaction in equal terms and understand that in a weightless floating environment like we are told space is, you have to use your common sense and grasp that both the person and the board create no extra resistance because there is no environment that caters for resistant force.

At this stage you get some of the so called clever shits that will say "ahh but they still have mass in space." It's tedious but let's counteract that by giving the man and the board exact mass.

Ok before I move on I want any person to throw as many objects as they feel necessary from the ground and also from a skate-board or some wheeled contraption. Even do it jumping in the air and also hanging from a rope.
All I need for you to understand is the fact that no matter how you do it, you have to have leverage to create a force and that force will be equally counteracted by a reactionary force, because of the atmosphere you live  in and all things in an atmosphere have mass/density.
The reason they have mass/density is due to the make up of whatever matter/object pushing against a pressure of it's own displacement of that atmosphere.

In fantasy space you have nothing to lever against. No walls to push off and no floor to stand on. You are literally in suspended animation in a way.
Now because you do not have anything to lever off of, you can only apply enough force to actually stretch out your arms against that board.
What are you not doing?

You are not exerting anything onto the board any more than  the board is exerting back onto you.
You are left with outstretched arms touching that board and that's it. None of you go anywhere from this point.
You end up with your fingertips touching the board and your toes touching the skate-board.

It's pretty simply for any logical person to work out but too many would rather tread the path of bullshit told by people who are too afraid to lose their jobs, as well as those who are actually paid to promote the utter shit of space.

"In order for him to do this he MUST have some leverage to allow him to achieve this" no he doesn't, he just needs working muscles.
"He now has to throw that ball and he does so by using his LEGS and FEET as a leverage to allow him to propel this ball. He can throw it a great distance doing this."
No, his legs and feet stop him from being knocked back by the momentum, instead passing it onto the ground.
You have no evidence for your leverage statement, but conservation of momentum is a proven fact. If you are right about leverage then I wouldn't be able to throw something while jumping.

The whole reason you have leverage at all is due to the solid ground and atmospheric pressure you are pushing against. Wake up or be forever comatose, I'm not arsed which.

If it's because of solid ground then why can I throw something when I jump. Also saying that people need to wake up doesn't make you right.

Quote from: EternalHoid on December 28, 2015, 02:01:27 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on December 28, 2015, 01:22:55 AM

I've read all of what Papa Legba said and it makes perfect sense. It makes perfect sense because he knows what the reality is and does not fall for fantasy scientific shenanigans.

You people have the ability to copy what you read as long as it's official. You refuse to read anything that goes against it because it scares you.

Do you know what conservation of momentum is, that's reality, that's how rocket work, nothing to do with pushing off something.
Ill explain it,
You have someone floating in a vacuum, they are holding a metal ball. If they throw the ball infront of them, that ball will of gained momentum, where does the momentum to counter the ball's go? To the man who then gains momentum in the opposite direction. Otherwise momentum would not a conserved.

Let's see if you're willing to use your brain.

We will use your floating man and ball.
Now I'm going to put something to you and I do not want magical answers from you  unless you can logically explain them to make sense.

Ok, so the man and ball are in space and floating. He throws the ball in front of him. In order for him to do this he MUST have some leverage to allow him to achieve this.

I believe this part is where you will be scratching your head because your belief is that he will not need any leverage and he can simply throw that ball.

Let me see if I can make this easier for you - well, if not for you - at least to those who are willing to understand it.

A man on the ground throwing a ball has the mass of that ball adding to the mass of himself against the ground. The reason for this is because he picked up that extra mass from the ground which is now repelling more atmospheric pressure.

He now has to throw that ball and he does so by using his LEGS and FEET as a leverage to allow him to propel this ball. He can throw it a great distance doing this.

Now let's change it a little and place this man on a skateboard with the same ball. He goes to throw it and what happens?
He throws the ball but the leverage he once had against the ground is now lessened due to the wheels on the skateboard not creating enough solid leverage on the ground.
You find that his throw is nowhere near as good to launch this ball through a barrier of air resistance and you see him roll back a little.

Now imagine this person floating 1 foot off the floor and holding the same ball. He has no leverage at all. He can bring his arm back to launch that ball but in order for him to do that he needs some leverage to propel it and he has absolutely none.

So what  happens in reality?
It should be obvious to those that do not fall for the mass in space bullshit.
He simply cannot launch the ball. He is stuck to that ball.

All people have to do is switch on their common sense brains to see how simple reality is against the absolute bullshit fantasy of space and it's floating crap.

So in your world people can't throw balls (or they would be worse throws) if they jump.  Ever watch an outfielder in baseball throw all the way back to home plate?

Quote from: EternalHoid on December 28, 2015, 02:56:35 AM

Leverage with the ground isn't needed to throw a ball, it does stop the backwards momentum from throwing the ball moving you backwards.
How come I can jump up and throw a ball in the air.
And why wouldn't muscles work in space.

You can jump up and throw a ball in the air because you are using atmospheric pressure as your leverage, only you won't get as much leverage as opposed to your entire body being pushed to the deck by it's own mass acting against the atmosphere and the actual solid ground.

And muscles clearly couldn't work in your space but that's not what we're arguing about, so let's pretend they can in your fantasy  near vacuum.

I want you to seriously think about what I say here. I very much doubt you will. In fact I'm 100% sure you will just go total cloud cuckoo but I'll hang onto the hope that real people with real brains can see the reality.

Ok, get a large board; say: a 4x4 foot ply-board. Stand on a skate-board and throw that ply-board away from you and see how far you're repelled backwards. You'll find that it's quite a bit if your skate-board is on a hard smooth surface with good wheels.

So what happened?
It depends on who you ask. You can ask a severely indoctrinated naive person who will tell you that the mass of the board is what propelled you but a little help from air resistance due to the surface area of that board.

Try the same thing in water and tell me what repels you?

Let's take the board into fantasy space, held onto by magical floating man on his skate-board.
As we can see, the skate-board is useless because there's no floor.
The man standing on that skate-board can exert no pressure upon the board nor can the board exert any back. Basically his feet are touching the board as the board is touching his feet.
He holds the 4x4 board and realises that he feels no force against his muscles because that board is also floating just like he is.
His arms are bent as if he is about to launch the board away from him, so how does he do this.

If you think he can just push his arms out and release the board you  have to understand action/reaction in equal terms and understand that in a weightless floating environment like we are told space is, you have to use your common sense and grasp that both the person and the board create no extra resistance because there is no environment that caters for resistant force.

At this stage you get some of the so called clever shits that will say "ahh but they still have mass in space." It's tedious but let's counteract that by giving the man and the board exact mass.

Ok before I move on I want any person to throw as many objects as they feel necessary from the ground and also from a skate-board or some wheeled contraption. Even do it jumping in the air and also hanging from a rope.
All I need for you to understand is the fact that no matter how you do it, you have to have leverage to create a force and that force will be equally counteracted by a reactionary force, because of the atmosphere you live  in and all things in an atmosphere have mass/density.
The reason they have mass/density is due to the make up of whatever matter/object pushing against a pressure of it's own displacement of that atmosphere.

In fantasy space you have nothing to lever against. No walls to push off and no floor to stand on. You are literally in suspended animation in a way.
Now because you do not have anything to lever off of, you can only apply enough force to actually stretch out your arms against that board.
What are you not doing?

You are not exerting anything onto the board any more than  the board is exerting back onto you.
You are left with outstretched arms touching that board and that's it. None of you go anywhere from this point.
You end up with your fingertips touching the board and your toes touching the skate-board.

It's pretty simply for any logical person to work out but too many would rather tread the path of bullshit told by people who are too afraid to lose their jobs, as well as those who are actually paid to promote the utter shit of space.

According to you then it would matter what orientation that board is when you throw it because it would have different air resistance.  Test it. You'll find you are wrong.  Orientation does not matter.  you could take the same mass concentrated in a far smaller area (far less air resistance) and get the same force.  Air resistance does NOT come into play. 

If it's because of solid ground then why can I throw something when I jump. Also saying that people need to wake up doesn't make you right.

Did you miss the bit where I said solid ground and ATMOSPHERIC PRESSURE or did you just decide to discard it so you could carry on playing dumbo?

Quote from: sceptimatic on December 28, 2015, 03:28:53 AM

Quote from: EternalHoid on December 28, 2015, 02:56:35 AM

Leverage with the ground isn't needed to throw a ball, it does stop the backwards momentum from throwing the ball moving you backwards.
How come I can jump up and throw a ball in the air.
And why wouldn't muscles work in space.

You can jump up and throw a ball in the air because you are using atmospheric pressure as your leverage, only you won't get as much leverage as opposed to your entire body being pushed to the deck by it's own mass acting against the atmosphere and the actual solid ground.

And muscles clearly couldn't work in your space but that's not what we're arguing about, so let's pretend they can in your fantasy  near vacuum.

I want you to seriously think about what I say here. I very much doubt you will. In fact I'm 100% sure you will just go total cloud cuckoo but I'll hang onto the hope that real people with real brains can see the reality.

Ok, get a large board; say: a 4x4 foot ply-board. Stand on a skate-board and throw that ply-board away from you and see how far you're repelled backwards. You'll find that it's quite a bit if your skate-board is on a hard smooth surface with good wheels.

So what happened?
It depends on who you ask. You can ask a severely indoctrinated naive person who will tell you that the mass of the board is what propelled you but a little help from air resistance due to the surface area of that board.

Try the same thing in water and tell me what repels you?

Let's take the board into fantasy space, held onto by magical floating man on his skate-board.
As we can see, the skate-board is useless because there's no floor.
The man standing on that skate-board can exert no pressure upon the board nor can the board exert any back. Basically his feet are touching the board as the board is touching his feet.
He holds the 4x4 board and realises that he feels no force against his muscles because that board is also floating just like he is.
His arms are bent as if he is about to launch the board away from him, so how does he do this.

If you think he can just push his arms out and release the board you  have to understand action/reaction in equal terms and understand that in a weightless floating environment like we are told space is, you have to use your common sense and grasp that both the person and the board create no extra resistance because there is no environment that caters for resistant force.

At this stage you get some of the so called clever shits that will say "ahh but they still have mass in space." It's tedious but let's counteract that by giving the man and the board exact mass.

Ok before I move on I want any person to throw as many objects as they feel necessary from the ground and also from a skate-board or some wheeled contraption. Even do it jumping in the air and also hanging from a rope.
All I need for you to understand is the fact that no matter how you do it, you have to have leverage to create a force and that force will be equally counteracted by a reactionary force, because of the atmosphere you live  in and all things in an atmosphere have mass/density.
The reason they have mass/density is due to the make up of whatever matter/object pushing against a pressure of it's own displacement of that atmosphere.

In fantasy space you have nothing to lever against. No walls to push off and no floor to stand on. You are literally in suspended animation in a way.
Now because you do not have anything to lever off of, you can only apply enough force to actually stretch out your arms against that board.
What are you not doing?

You are not exerting anything onto the board any more than  the board is exerting back onto you.
You are left with outstretched arms touching that board and that's it. None of you go anywhere from this point.
You end up with your fingertips touching the board and your toes touching the skate-board.

It's pretty simply for any logical person to work out but too many would rather tread the path of bullshit told by people who are too afraid to lose their jobs, as well as those who are actually paid to promote the utter shit of space.

According to you then it would matter what orientation that board is when you throw it because it would have different air resistance.  Test it. You'll find you are wrong.  Orientation does not matter.  you could take the same mass concentrated in a far smaller area (far less air resistance) and get the same force.  Air resistance does NOT come into play.

I can see you're a total waste of time. Just carry on being a numpty, I'm done with people like you.

Quote from: frenat on December 28, 2015, 03:51:05 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on December 28, 2015, 03:28:53 AM

Quote from: EternalHoid on December 28, 2015, 02:56:35 AM

Leverage with the ground isn't needed to throw a ball, it does stop the backwards momentum from throwing the ball moving you backwards.
How come I can jump up and throw a ball in the air.
And why wouldn't muscles work in space.

You can jump up and throw a ball in the air because you are using atmospheric pressure as your leverage, only you won't get as much leverage as opposed to your entire body being pushed to the deck by it's own mass acting against the atmosphere and the actual solid ground.

And muscles clearly couldn't work in your space but that's not what we're arguing about, so let's pretend they can in your fantasy  near vacuum.

I want you to seriously think about what I say here. I very much doubt you will. In fact I'm 100% sure you will just go total cloud cuckoo but I'll hang onto the hope that real people with real brains can see the reality.

Ok, get a large board; say: a 4x4 foot ply-board. Stand on a skate-board and throw that ply-board away from you and see how far you're repelled backwards. You'll find that it's quite a bit if your skate-board is on a hard smooth surface with good wheels.

So what happened?
It depends on who you ask. You can ask a severely indoctrinated naive person who will tell you that the mass of the board is what propelled you but a little help from air resistance due to the surface area of that board.

Try the same thing in water and tell me what repels you?

Let's take the board into fantasy space, held onto by magical floating man on his skate-board.
As we can see, the skate-board is useless because there's no floor.
The man standing on that skate-board can exert no pressure upon the board nor can the board exert any back. Basically his feet are touching the board as the board is touching his feet.
He holds the 4x4 board and realises that he feels no force against his muscles because that board is also floating just like he is.
His arms are bent as if he is about to launch the board away from him, so how does he do this.

If you think he can just push his arms out and release the board you  have to understand action/reaction in equal terms and understand that in a weightless floating environment like we are told space is, you have to use your common sense and grasp that both the person and the board create no extra resistance because there is no environment that caters for resistant force.

At this stage you get some of the so called clever shits that will say "ahh but they still have mass in space." It's tedious but let's counteract that by giving the man and the board exact mass.

Ok before I move on I want any person to throw as many objects as they feel necessary from the ground and also from a skate-board or some wheeled contraption. Even do it jumping in the air and also hanging from a rope.
All I need for you to understand is the fact that no matter how you do it, you have to have leverage to create a force and that force will be equally counteracted by a reactionary force, because of the atmosphere you live  in and all things in an atmosphere have mass/density.
The reason they have mass/density is due to the make up of whatever matter/object pushing against a pressure of it's own displacement of that atmosphere.

In fantasy space you have nothing to lever against. No walls to push off and no floor to stand on. You are literally in suspended animation in a way.
Now because you do not have anything to lever off of, you can only apply enough force to actually stretch out your arms against that board.
What are you not doing?

You are not exerting anything onto the board any more than  the board is exerting back onto you.
You are left with outstretched arms touching that board and that's it. None of you go anywhere from this point.
You end up with your fingertips touching the board and your toes touching the skate-board.

It's pretty simply for any logical person to work out but too many would rather tread the path of bullshit told by people who are too afraid to lose their jobs, as well as those who are actually paid to promote the utter shit of space.

According to you then it would matter what orientation that board is when you throw it because it would have different air resistance.  Test it. You'll find you are wrong.  Orientation does not matter.  you could take the same mass concentrated in a far smaller area (far less air resistance) and get the same force.  Air resistance does NOT come into play.

I can see you're a total waste of time. Just carry on being a numpty, I'm done with people like you.

translation: I'm not going to test it because it will prove me wrong.  here, I'll throw out some insults to distract you.

Go back to sleep, Frenat. You and all your sock puppet/eers are not in my line of thought. I use you people to show the sensible people how naive and backwards you people are.
The very same people as you that throw out insults and ridicule to anyone not following your train of thought and yet go crying like little bitches to the moderators and admin when you get a few home truth's aimed back.

For all you genuine people out there, tear up your space books and all related  crap that promotes it because it's fantasy - unless you want to keep those books and simply use them as a reference to that fantasy for future arguments, then fair enough.

I literally feel sorry for the people who are so gullible to this stuff, even after seeing enough explanations that should force them to question and yet here they are like puppies in learning stage just following their masters. Sad as hell and also funny with some.

Quote from: luckyfred on December 28, 2015, 01:34:22 AM

I'll be more than happy to study a set of equation showing how thrust changes with altitude but u still haven't provided one

The problem with you people is that you believe equations are the answer to any issue  and you cannot use basic logic to see the basic truth.

Did you ever consider the possibility that equations can be used in the real world to test your basic logic and see if you've found the basic truth about rockets?

Quote from: sceptimatic on December 28, 2015, 01:47:15 AM

Quote from: luckyfred on December 28, 2015, 01:34:22 AM

I'll be more than happy to study a set of equation showing how thrust changes with altitude but u still haven't provided one

The problem with you people is that you believe equations are the answer to any issue  and you cannot use basic logic to see the basic truth.

Did you ever consider the possibility that equations can be used in the real world to test your basic logic and see if you've found the basic truth about rockets?

Space isn't your real world, markjo; it's a fantasy that was sold to people like you and me and a fantasy that is/was expected to be adhered to as reality and not to be questioned as the clear fantasy it really is when looked at logically - amid all of the silly equations to go with it that mean absolutely eff all.

Go back to sleep, Frenat. You and all your sock puppet/eers are not in my line of thought. I use you people to show the sensible people how naive and backwards you people are.
The very same people as you that throw out insults and ridicule to anyone not following your train of thought and yet go crying like little bitches to the moderators and admin when you get a few home truth's aimed back.

For all you genuine people out there, tear up your space books and all related  crap that promotes it because it's fantasy - unless you want to keep those books and simply use them as a reference to that fantasy for future arguments, then fair enough.

I literally feel sorry for the people who are so gullible to this stuff, even after seeing enough explanations that should force them to question and yet here they are like puppies in learning stage just following their masters. Sad as hell and also funny with some.

Prove I have ANY sock puppets.  I'll bet you can't and won't even try.  Heck, prove any of your assertions in this post. 

 You have an easy way to prove your assertion regarding surface area and have refused instead resorting to insults.  Says a lot about you.