War

Quote from: Stash on October 16, 2022, 03:31:54 AM

Quote from: disputeone on October 15, 2022, 11:07:30 PM

Well, it seems like Tulsi Gabbard wasn't for sale in any case, at least not to the WEF.

Did you know that she was in military civil psychological operations too? Seems like she has had a good look at the inside of the machine. I'll be listening to her podcast for insights.

She has accepted campaign donations from evil warmongering corporations. Everyone apparently has a price. She is no exception.

What’s a wef?

The primary mission of Civil Affairs is to conduct Civil-military operations. Civil Affairs soldiers are responsible for executing five core Civil Affairs tasks, Civil Information Management, Foreign Humanitarian Assistance, Foreign Assistance, Population and Resource Control, and Support to Civil Administration. Some sub tasks to these core tasks include identifying non-governmental and international organizations operating in the battlespace, handling refugees, civilians on the battlefield, and determining protected targets such as schools, churches/temples/mosques, hospitals, etc.

Doesn’t sound very intriguing.

World Economic Forum.
Apparently a bunch of economists talking and giving their opinion publically is proof they rule the world.  Or something.

Oh yeah, the davos thing. It doesn’t wield any real power, just assessment and recommendations.

They exert political influence with their young leaders program, I'm not sure why you would downplay their influence.

Quote from: Stash on October 16, 2022, 03:31:54 AM

Everyone apparently has a price.

That's where you're wrong kiddo.

Maybe not everyone. But politicians do. Hence accepting $$$ from evildoers. Like tulsi did.

She has accepted campaign donations from evil warmongering corporations.

Oh yeah, the davos thing. It doesn’t wield any real power, just assessment and recommendations.

lol.

They exert political influence with their young leaders program, I'm not sure why you would downplay their influence.

The one that has no political component to it?

https://www.younggloballeaders.org/

Our growing membership of more than 1,400 members and alumni of 120 nationalities includes civic and business innovators, entrepreneurs, technology pioneers, educators, activists, artists, journalists, and more.

So no young politicians. 
Also, even if they did, said politicians need to get elected.

Quote from: Crouton on October 15, 2022, 10:40:05 PM

Quote from: disputeone on October 15, 2022, 09:25:12 PM

Quote from: Crouton on October 15, 2022, 12:43:34 AM

Has it occurred to you that many of us know our sins all too well.  And that we see Ukraine as a way to regain some measure of honor?

No one's going to swallow that, Crouton.

I'm going to go ahead and assume that you haven't spent much time in America.

I'm going to assume you very rarely go outside. The alternative would be assuming dishonesty and I would never do that.

Edit.

Its funny how this thread started out about the Russian invasion of Ukraine, now it's about the very real possibility of ww3 and a nuclear exchange.

The title still fits.

False.  It is Rocktober.  Sunscreen is very much in use.

Quote from: disputeone on October 16, 2022, 03:59:57 AM

They exert political influence with their young leaders program, I'm not sure why you would downplay their influence.

The one that has no political component to it?

https://www.younggloballeaders.org/

Quote

Our growing membership of more than 1,400 members and alumni of 120 nationalities includes civic and business innovators, entrepreneurs, technology pioneers, educators, activists, artists, journalists, and more.

So no young politicians. 
Also, even if they did, said politicians need to get elected.

Seems like the WEF has no agenda and just wants what's best for everyone.

Quote from: Crouton on October 15, 2022, 10:36:23 PM

Maybe there was a time where Tulsi Gabbard had a respectable position but that time is long gone.  She's just a grifter trying to pushing a narrative on a podcast for clicks.  Nothing more.

When she was part of the WEFs young leaders program?

You're so transparent.

She is hated by the establishment so much because she was groomed to be a shill for the establishment and left the plantation. They feel like she betrayed them.

She's a Christian, some people aren't for sale.

I've looked up her voting record when she was a representative.  It's actually not bad.  A big focus was on veterans healthcare.  There were two very odd things that stood out though.  She was one of the few no votes on condemning Assad.  And she introduced a bill that would prevent us from providing support to rebels in Syria.  Very curious.

Tulsi Gabbard now though.



She paints this as a proxy war between the US and Russia.  Let's put this into perspective.  We've delivered 16 billion to Ukraine.  We've actually committed more but that's what we've delivered.

So Ukraine 16 billion.
Federal student loan forgiveness 400 billion.
Hurricane damage 150 billion a year.
Cost of stupid border stunts that don't actually do anything about illegal immigrants, that we've spent about 25 billion on.

So we actually spend more taxpayer money on trying to make Democrats look bad when it comes to border security than we have on Ukraine.

Here's another set of information to give you more perspective on our role in Ukraine.

This is a list of all the equipment losses Ukraine has suffered in this war.  https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-ukrainian.html

It's nice to sort through because it has the flag of the country of origin of that equipment.  Tulsi and other Russian apologists would have you believe that Ukraine is an army mostly equipped by western weaponry.  But this is false.  Most of what Ukraine has is still soviet gear.  Russia has actually "transferred" more equipment to Ukraine than anyone else.  If Russia is concerned about how much equipment Ukraine has they need only to look in a mirror.

If were concerned that Russia is going to nuke countries that supply Ukraine then really we should worry that they're going to nuke themselves.

Without western military aid Ukraine would have given into Russia's demands weeks into the war, all these lives could have been saved

Ukraine didn't get any demands.  Putin's plan was to occupy the entire country, arrest and replace the Zelensky  regime, demilitarise  and carve the country up into new regions. He had plans to for "Greater Novorossiya" and "Malaya Rossiya" (Little Russia) on Ukrainian land.  Puppets would be installed like Lukashenko and the regions would eventually be absorbed into the Russian Federation (or some kind of greater Russian union like the USSR).  A small rump would be left round Lviv, which Putin envisaged would be absorbed into Poland.

The Ukrainian language would be wiped out, it's history rewritten it's culture abolished.  Ukraine would be no more and would never return.

Unless you are very naïve it's pretty obvious that he would then have turned his attention to Finland and the Baltic states where large numbers of Russian speakers would then have to be saved from whatever atrocity the Kremlin dreamed up.  Then Poland would be looking down the barrel.

For someone who has in the past espoused their great belief in sovereignty, the nation state, patriotism and being proud of your culture and your language  - it's kind of strange you now think Ukraine should give all of that up to save themselves from a bully's violence.  Would you not fight for your culture, your language, your sovereignty, your family?  I suspect normally you would, but now your waxy faced messiah has told you what to think, you have done a complete volte-face.

And the west didn't give military aid to Ukraine in the first few weeks.  They offered to airlift the government out to Warsaw, but that was about it.  They assumed Russia would have it's way and that any weapons they sent in would be captured.  Like Putin (and most of us), they completely underestimated what amazing warriors Ukrainians turned out to be and had no idea the Russian forces would be such horribly corrupt dog shit.

It was only after Ukraine had fought like heroes and held off the initial blitzkrieg did western powers start flooding the country with antitank weapons.  It was still months before any heavy weapons start being donated and even now the great majority of the armoury Ukraine works from is Russian or Ukrainian made.

Its a proxy war if we arent sending people there directly.
There is no declaration of war against russsia.


Also ref assad and etc - i think gabbo was called out by Hclinton for being somehow in russias pocket

Gabbo voting record probably i bet more in line with crenshaw and mccain.
How to check?

Side note


Cut it in half at the river

I would be shocked if you personally didn't know about the past, but it doesn't seem to be that wide spread amongst your compatriots to be honest.

As for the honour, how is that regained if you are doing the same thing all over again?

Colour me a cynic on this, the dollar is up the Euro down and likely to stay down as it's Europe that is bearing the brunt of the pain as far as fuel shortages and migrations are concerned.

The US has at least 20 federal lawmakers or their spouses holding stock in Raytheon Technologies and Lockheed Martin, which manufacture the weapons, according to an Insider analysis of federal financial records.
Apparently Marjorie Taylor Greene, bought between $1,001 and $15,000 in Lockheed Martin shares on February 22, that's two days before Russia invaded, all shares in the defence manufacturing are (not) surprisingly up, and the two mentioned above spent over $15million and 14$million respectively on federal lobbying in 2021 alone.

On top of this the billions in debt owed primarily to the US, the IMF and the world bank, much of the US money was sent through the other two institutions and as we (UK) found any help comes with a raft of neo-liberal restructuring measures, with demands for reforms in pensions, the energy sector, agriculture, state employment, privatisation and political governance,  they have already forced through the substantial privatisation and marketisation of Ukrainian energy assets.


If these three strike the debt off without the imposition of what are broadly US policies then please call on me to retract and apologise.

Okay where to start.  Let's start with president Biden's motivation.  Biden is stuck withdrawing from Afghanistan.  He pretty much had no choice after the path Trump set us on.  I'm pretty sure it was the right thing to do.  It's probably the best thing Trump did during his presidency.  But at the same time it looks humiliating for us.  Around this time is when Biden's approval rating plunged.  Not sure how strongly these two things are correlated.

So Biden has a low approval, he looks like some incompetent asshole because of Afghanistan, covid is still lingering and inflation is a problem.  Then this happens.  https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/interactive/2022/ukraine-road-to-war/

Putin interprets our withdraw from Afghanistan as a general reluctance towards any sort of intervention and decides now is a great time to invade Ukraine.  The US, and I think the UK, have extremely reliable intelligence that Putin is determined to invade, that he cannot be dissuaded from it. 

So now Biden has a problem or maybe Biden has an opportunity.  If he can stop this war then that makes him look good, reasserts America on the world stage, saves lives and all that.  So he loudly broadcasts every move Putin is about to make.  Putin keeps going.  Then Biden and Boris Johnson organize the West into supporting crippling sanctions.  Doesn't stop Putin.  And here's where military aid comes into the picture.

Putting what we've given Ukraine into perspective is extremely important if we're trying to determine if this is all a scheme by the defense industry to make themselves rich.  The media really likes to hype up all the aid we've given Ukraine.  And what we've done has helped, probably set Ukraine up for victory eventually.  But we spend more taxpayer money trolling democrats on border security.  Ukraine's army currently looks like a soviet army but with a special forces wing decked out in American hardware.  Biden has played this extremely conservatively walking the line between giving Ukraine enough to defend itself and provoking Putin into ww3.

These game changing weapons, the himars, we have 500 of them.  We've given Ukraine I think 20 so far along with the shortest range missiles they use.  Their effectiveness has been kind of a surprise to us as Russian air defenses were supposed to theoretically be able to stop them.  As far as American hardware goes, we've given them no tanks, no aircraft, no long range missiles.  We have emptied out a lot of museums to give them a bunch of older hardware we're tired of maintaining. 

The point I'm trying to make here is that despite what the news portrays, our contribution to Ukraine has been, if I'm being polite, measured.  Biden obviously is trying to do the absolute bare minimum.  I assume that's to avoid provoking Russia.

So defense stocks, I'm seeing a 10-20% bump at the start of the war that has mostly leveled off now.  This is mostly the same trend among defense stocks. Raytheon is actually lower now than before February.  Based on all this it seems difficult to conclude that our intervention was intended to benefit the defense industry.

Onto economics, the Euro has been on a steady downward trend since 2021.  The UK has decided to stab itself in the face with Brexit followed by printing money to fund tax cuts to the super rich during a time of rising inflation.  These aren't things we've had anything to do with.

Energy.  The world where we could do business with Putin ended on February 24.  Putin has proven beyond reasonable doubt that he's a malicious and unreliable trading partner who will use his profits to fund a war machine that he will use to attack his neighbors.  Regardless of the outcome of Ukraine or the date that finally happens this fact remains.  If the war ended tomorrow and Zelensky says everything is cool now.  There's no going back.  Europe's just stuck with a bad energy situation for a few years until alternatives are in place.  This is also not something the US had the power to stop. 

I can't say much about debt, the IMF etc.  I really don't know much about those.

Finally regarding my fellow citizens.  We are ignorant of quite a few things about our past, this is true.  But we do hear parts of the world calling us assholes a lot.  While we might publicly tell them to go fuck themselves in private we do kind of wonder if there's something to it.

All these things being true, broadly that is, other than us stabbing ourselves in the face which is now official government policy.

And as I have said before, my dedication to overarching plans of 3D chess playing supervillains is cursory and in many cases, just for debate, but I would ask you this.

If as you say you are aware of Americas policy of CIA backed regime change from at least nominally democratic countries into full on right-wing dictatorships (Guatemala, Chile, Nicaragua, Argentina et-al) and its willingness to overturn them in its own interests at the drop of a hat as with Saddam when he started to trade his oil in Euros instead of dollars or Noriega for reasons, and actively deal with its enemies as with Iran, by selling them weapons to get backdoor money for funding the Contras, with all the 100's of thousands of deaths involved in the above situations and more, has that foreign policy changed? If so when, and under whose presidency?   

All these things being true, broadly that is, other than us stabbing ourselves in the face which is now official government policy.

And as I have said before, my dedication to overarching plans of 3D chess playing supervillains is cursory and in many cases, just for debate, but I would ask you this.

If as you say you are aware of Americas policy of CIA backed regime change from at least nominally democratic countries into full on right-wing dictatorships (Guatemala, Chile, Nicaragua, Argentina et-al) and its willingness to overturn them in its own interests at the drop of a hat as with Saddam when he started to trade his oil in Euros instead of dollars or Noriega for reasons, and actively deal with its enemies as with Iran, by selling them weapons to get backdoor money for funding the Contras, with all the 100's of thousands of deaths involved in the above situations and more, has that foreign policy changed? If so when, and under whose presidency?

I don't know when it changed.  To be honest I don't know if it has changed.  There was that situation in Venezuela recently where I heard about... well something we did that seems underhanded.  I haven't had the time to study it. 

If it has changed then it could be that we're more sensitive to the long term negative consequences.  Or maybe potential targets have adapted to these methods.  Or maybe Iraq and Afghanistan were such quagmires that we've become allergic to foreign interference.  It just seems to me that this situation in Ukraine isn't very comparable to the situation in Nicaragua.  I see no reason to think that we're doing anything devious here.  Every once in a great while we really are there just to help out for reasons that are mutually beneficial. 

I think putin had the plan in palce trump or no trump.
Trump was a bonus if available ti dismantle nato.
Putins has persobal timelines to georgia and crimea and then ukraine.
Hes old.
He has a vision.

And America may have had a role in deposing one our prime ministers. Arguably our best given what he accomplished.


WHY? WE WERE YOUR ALLIES!!


https://independentaustralia.net/politics/politics-display/questions-remain-over-us-and-cia-role-in-whitlams-dismissal,14103

Whitlam also considered taking steps against the American spy base at Pine Gap.

According to John Pilger in The Guardian:

'Victor Marchetti, the CIA officer who had helped set up Pine Gap, later told me, “This threat to close Pine Gap caused apoplexy in the White House … a kind of Chile [coup] was set in motion.'

The American Embassy was in a state of panic. 

When Whitlam’s ministers publicly condemned the U.S. bombing of Vietnam as “corrupt and barbaric”, a CIA station officer in Saigon said:

'We were told the Australians might as well be regarded as North Vietnamese collaborators.'

Seriously? Stupid yanks! 

https://twitter.com/bayraktar_1love/status/1581614873506480130

The Russian conscription process is very informal.  It seems to be based on one's ability to run faster than the officials.

Quote from: disputeone on October 15, 2022, 10:55:24 PM

Quote from: Crouton on October 15, 2022, 10:36:23 PM

Maybe there was a time where Tulsi Gabbard had a respectable position but that time is long gone.  She's just a grifter trying to pushing a narrative on a podcast for clicks.  Nothing more.

When she was part of the WEFs young leaders program?

You're so transparent.

She is hated by the establishment so much because she was groomed to be a shill for the establishment and left the plantation. They feel like she betrayed them.

She's a Christian, some people aren't for sale.

I've looked up her voting record when she was a representative.  It's actually not that bad.

You're so transparent.

Other than us stabbing ourselves in the face which is now official government policy.

I vote we make sure Jeff is on our side.

I vote we don't have a nuclear war.
Why has everyone given up on this possibility?

I vote we don't have a nuclear war.
Why has everyone given up on this possibility?

Shall we surrender South Korea to North Korea then?

Quote from: disputeone on October 16, 2022, 09:33:17 PM

I vote we don't have a nuclear war.
Why has everyone given up on this possibility?

Shall we surrender South Korea to North Korea then?

Americas military presence in South Korea make you guys continued antagonists. There is no path to de escalation with you there

Also kind of pointless from a defensive point of view. The North won't invade simply because a nuclear warhead with their name on it is no more than half an hour away at any time

You guys are using South Korea to have a presence in Asia right near China's doorstep. If the North and South came to an agreement to reunify, you can be sure America would sabotage it. Your presence in the South make any hope of reunification an impossibility.

I mean the Kim dynanasty is pretty fucked up, don't get me wrong

Quote from: Jura-Glenlivet II on October 16, 2022, 12:45:43 PM

All these things being true, broadly that is, other than us stabbing ourselves in the face which is now official government policy.

And as I have said before, my dedication to overarching plans of 3D chess playing supervillains is cursory and in many cases, just for debate, but I would ask you this.

If as you say you are aware of Americas policy of CIA backed regime change from at least nominally democratic countries into full on right-wing dictatorships (Guatemala, Chile, Nicaragua, Argentina et-al) and its willingness to overturn them in its own interests at the drop of a hat as with Saddam when he started to trade his oil in Euros instead of dollars or Noriega for reasons, and actively deal with its enemies as with Iran, by selling them weapons to get backdoor money for funding the Contras, with all the 100's of thousands of deaths involved in the above situations and more, has that foreign policy changed? If so when, and under whose presidency?

I don't know when it changed.  To be honest I don't know if it has changed.  There was that situation in Venezuela recently where I heard about... well something we did that seems underhanded.  I haven't had the time to study it. 

If it has changed then it could be that we're more sensitive to the long term negative consequences.  Or maybe potential targets have adapted to these methods.  Or maybe Iraq and Afghanistan were such quagmires that we've become allergic to foreign interference.  It just seems to me that this situation in Ukraine isn't very comparable to the situation in Nicaragua.  I see no reason to think that we're doing anything devious here.  Every once in a great while we really are there just to help out for reasons that are mutually beneficial.

I suspect alot of it ended with the Cold War.  Which really was the reason for alot of our underhanded shit.
Oil is a thing too, and we'll do terrible things to keep it flowing.

But beyond that, America just isn't gonna give a fuck.
*See Africa

Quote from: disputeone on October 16, 2022, 09:33:17 PM

I vote we don't have a nuclear war.
Why has everyone given up on this possibility?

Shall we surrender South Korea to North Korea then?

Actually let me ask that a different way.

Is slavery more preferable than war?

Quote from: Crouton on October 16, 2022, 09:59:22 PM

Quote from: disputeone on October 16, 2022, 09:33:17 PM

I vote we don't have a nuclear war.
Why has everyone given up on this possibility?

Shall we surrender South Korea to North Korea then?

Actually let me ask that a different way.

Is slavery more preferable than war?

No one is taking Ukrainians as slaves, Crouton. You're really trying to sell ww3 huh?

Quote from: Crouton on October 16, 2022, 10:38:42 PM

Quote from: Crouton on October 16, 2022, 09:59:22 PM

Quote from: disputeone on October 16, 2022, 09:33:17 PM

I vote we don't have a nuclear war.
Why has everyone given up on this possibility?

Shall we surrender South Korea to North Korea then?

Actually let me ask that a different way.

Is slavery more preferable than war?

No one is taking Ukrainians as slaves, Crouton. You're really trying to sell ww3 huh?

When they tell you where to go, when to go, what to do, when to kill and when to die that is called a slave.

This is exactly what's happening in Occupied Ukraine.  Please follow those links I've sent you.  May learn a few things that Tulsi Gabbard isn't teaching you for some reason.

When they tell you where to go, when to go, what to do, when to kill and when to die that is called a slave.

This is exactly what happened in Australia.

Yeah, its true.
Last time I checked you supported the mandates.

The Ukrainians aren't being taken as slaves, Crouton

In any case, even if the Ukrainians were being taken as slaves. Which they are not. That does not justify nuclear war between Russia and America. Would it be justification for Ukraine to fight to the last man? To use all the weapons they have available?

Of course.

It's not worth the US risking the lives of hundreds of millions of people, it isn't. Even if Russia was taking Ukrainian men as slaves, which they are not. Even if that was the case, The American ruling class' first concern should always be the health and welfare of American citizens.

Your boys have been saying that objective evil doesn't exist. Please understand that Putin sees this as a war for the existence of Russia and he sees capitulation as slavery.

As apparently you do also.
Someone will have to back down.

Do you have a spot in a bunker in NZ?

Edit.

Your boy keeps giving the game away.

If someone was presented with a button that said 'Great Reset' which would wipe out most of humanity  but the information they were given was our current path would cause a climate change calamity that would cause humanities extinction (and that of several million other species) but that pushing that button would allow us another chance, possibly allowing for future billions or trillions of people to be born into the far future..... Would they be evil to push it?

In any case, even if the Ukrainians were being taken as slaves. Which they are not. That does not justify nuclear war between Russia and America. Would it be justification for Ukraine to fight to the last man? To use all the weapons they have available?

Of course.

It's not worth the US risking the lives of hundreds of millions of people, it isn't. Even if Russia was taking Ukrainian men as slaves, which they are not. Even if that was the case, The American ruling class' first concern should always be the health and welfare of American citizens.

Your boys have been saying that objective evil doesn't exist. Please understand that Putin sees this as a war for the existence of Russia and he sees capitulation as slavery.

As apparently you do also.
Someone will have to back down.

Do you have a spot in a bunker in NZ?

Edit.

Your boy keeps giving the game away.

Quote from: Masalang the Torpedo on October 17, 2022, 12:07:40 AM

If someone was presented with a button that said 'Great Reset' which would wipe out most of humanity  but the information they were given was our current path would cause a climate change calamity that would cause humanities extinction (and that of several million other species) but that pushing that button would allow us another chance, possibly allowing for future billions or trillions of people to be born into the far future..... Would they be evil to push it?

Let's set aside the definition of slavery for another time and put it a different way.

So Ukraine, Russia possible ww3.  As I've outlined before Ukraine had a formidable army even before we started sending them equipment.  It's possible, maybe unlikely, they would have eventually beaten Russia without us.

Should we have joined in on the side of Russia to bludgeon Ukraine into Russian submission?  That would avoid a nuclear war right?

Why is it America's fault for the threat of nuclear war when Russia was the aggressor?  Does Russia have any culpability in your eyes for this war?

While we're on the subject of nuclear war let me ask another question.

Iran, a hostile nation, is believed to be developing its own nuclear arsenal.  Is invading them the right thing to do to stop them?