Sea and air pressure

Ok, you say enclose it.
Even enclosed you are in normal atmospheric conditions. You are in 14/15 psi of pressure and your body including the see saw and everything inside that enclosed area all displace the atmosphere within.

Which can't push it down, as it would need to push against the top of the container, meaning it pushes equally up and down.
It would need to be the air outside the container pushing it down.

So your model fails yet again.

Quote from: Themightykabool on September 25, 2020, 08:40:18 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on September 25, 2020, 06:37:08 AM

Quote from: Themightykabool on September 25, 2020, 05:38:52 AM

So what pushed the balloon down?

The air above, as thin as it is, it is the addition to the dense mass of the balloon and gas against the thin resistant stack trying to stop that dense mass.

It's alway s a push on push.
A squeeze on the stack anything is immersed inside of with that stack crushing up or crushing down depending on what is put up against it.

But you just conceded that there is little to no air and little to no pressure in the tank!

Explain?

Quote from: Themightykabool on September 25, 2020, 09:03:48 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on September 23, 2020, 10:14:46 PM

The below stack hits the "foundation" and starts comprsssing and stacking up.

Well in the see-saw gas tank scenario, the tank walls are impermeable to the gas.
The gas cant get out.
Air cant get in.
The if this rocket was placed on top of the gas tank, the sponges would stack into the tank - unaffecting the inside of the tank.
Anything inside would not feel and change in weight.

A balloon holds gas inside and stops gas entering from outside.
What happens to it?

It expands and contracts depending on what's been trapped inside of it (expands) or what is let out of it (contracts).

PV=NRT again has been a well proven fact.
So while air is reduced yet expands to fill the insides, the pressure also is seen to reduce.
So lack of pressure inside is easily reproducible and measurable reality.

But your claim is that pressure pushes things down.
Yet we see a decrease in pressure inside for the helium balloon in the chamber.

Quote from: JJA on September 25, 2020, 08:41:05 AM

  Lets eliminate the whole expansion/contraction nonsense.

Take this sea-saw, and enclose it.



Now walk from one end to the other, and gravity will pull you down, making the sea-saw tilt to whatever side you are standing.

It's completely enclosed, there is no expansion or contraction because you are not changing the pressure anywhere, just walking back and forth.

In your theory, how do your atmosphere-stacks know where you are inside the box?

Ok, you say enclose it.
Even enclosed you are in normal atmospheric conditions. You are in 14/15 psi of pressure and your body including the see saw and everything inside that enclosed area all displace the atmosphere within.

The very second you move, you change your atmospheric displacement to where you end up and the atmosphere fills the space you left behind. This is immediate.
The very second you move a finger...a foot.....and arm...or your entire body...you change the area of displacement.
If you are stood on a see saw you also change the foundation position.

Let's see how you deal with this to see where we go from here.

Yes, that's how it works.  You walk from one end to the other, your body displaces air and it moves to where you were inside the box.

Outside the box, how do air-stacks know you moved?  The box doesn't expand or contract.  How does anything on the outside know you moved, so it can push harder on the sea-saw?

Gravity works fine. How do air-stacks know to push on one side of the box or the other?

Quote from: Stash on September 25, 2020, 12:17:48 AM

Kind of a combined answer as your two responses relate.

Using the steel containers metaphor. Your displacement explanation does not work in this scenario. The expansion/contraction of the steel tanks is imperceptible and immeasurable. Unlike a balloon or football. So don't go all apples and oranges here.

It may seem like apples and oranges but it is far from it.It just requires though into what I'm saying.
The train iron tyre should give you a massive clue as to steel expansion and contraction.
Every action must have an equal and opposite reaction somewhere. It has to.
You only get out of something what you put into it and that's another clue to it.

Quote from: Stash

The displacement of the 'expanding' steel tank is equivalent to me sticking my fist into an Olympic sized swimming pool and expecting any sort of relevant displacement to occur. Worse still, you're talking not about a swimming pool but the entire atmosphere of the planet flattish Earth dome being displaced by gas flowing from one non-maleable 5 gallon tank to another.

You're simply not looking at it from my point; you're making your own point and omitting the rest.

Your fist is already in the pool. It now about what your fist has to do in that pool, such as hold another mass. By holding another mass in your fist, your fist has to squeeze and by squeezing....your fist has to expand to keep hold of the mass.
This is your tank holding a mass. The mass comes directly from Earth. It was already there and you have forced it into a tank and that tank, in order to hold it....has to be strong enough to expand, just like the iron tyre does to fit on a train wheel.
Because you don't see this expansion and contraction, naturally you think it's not there.
Now you can ponder as to the expansion being a nothing when put against the atmosphere but you must know that to get all of that mass into the tank, you have to take all that mass from the Earth and FORCE it in.
How much force is required to do that? It's not a nothing.....is it?

My fist is not already in the pool. I put my fist in the pool which causes displacement in the pool. But obviously nothing that would cause any perceptible or actionable displacement to really occur. The same for th other examples, especially when we are talking about the entire atmosphere, not just a pool.

You keep referencing an 'equal and opposite reaction' (which is ironic, but we can get to that later). In the tanks scenario, this imperceptible/immeasurable expansion and contraction that you claim occurs should impart and equal and opposite reaction in terms of displacement causing pressure in the atmosphere to push one tank down as it fills and gets heavier and push less so as one tank rises as it empties and gets lighter. But how is this imperceptible/immeasurable expansion and contraction of the tanks 'equal' to the rise and fall of the weights of the tank? It's not even close to 'equal'. So again, there's no way for the atmosphere to know which stack to press down harder on - It has no equal and opposite reaction that it's privy to. What's going on inside the sealed tanks is invisible to the atmosphere. And this expansion/contraction displacement is so minute, if at all, that it couldn't impart the very large and real amount the tanks are lessened and gained in weight.

In short, there is not an equal and opposite reaction displacing the atmosphere and the atmosphere has no idea what is going on inside the tanks.

Just like in JJA's sealed teeter totter example. The atmosphere has no idea who is walking from one side over the fulcrum to the other causing an opposite tilt. The atmosphere can't form a new heavier stack as the person moves because it has no idea the person is even moving.

Quote from: sceptimatic on September 25, 2020, 11:15:40 PM

Ok, you say enclose it.
Even enclosed you are in normal atmospheric conditions. You are in 14/15 psi of pressure and your body including the see saw and everything inside that enclosed area all displace the atmosphere within.

Which can't push it down, as it would need to push against the top of the container, meaning it pushes equally up and down.
It would need to be the air outside the container pushing it down.

So your model fails yet again.

Try and factor in the dense mass of any object within and you won't keep confuffling yourself.

PV=NRT again has been a well proven fact.
So while air is reduced yet expands to fill the insides, the pressure also is seen to reduce.

Absolutely.

So lack of pressure inside is easily reproducible and measurable reality.

Yep. A gauge will show reduced pressure.

But your claim is that pressure pushes things down.

You really need to reference this, because I say it time and time and time again and yet you fail to register it. I find that bizarre,  to be fair.

Pressure is created by the object by displacement. What you push into and displace by your own dense mass, is pushed right back against you or any object doing the same.

You are crushed down by your own dense mass of displaced atmosphere and all the rest of that atmosphere directly channelled down on top of you.

Yet we see a decrease in pressure inside for the helium balloon in the chamber.

If you actually take the time to understand what I've been saying you will clearly get why this happens.

I explained how vacuum chambers and pumps work. You know this.
Put some effort in and find it.

Quote from: sceptimatic on September 25, 2020, 11:15:40 PM

Quote from: JJA on September 25, 2020, 08:41:05 AM

  Lets eliminate the whole expansion/contraction nonsense.

Take this sea-saw, and enclose it.



Now walk from one end to the other, and gravity will pull you down, making the sea-saw tilt to whatever side you are standing.

It's completely enclosed, there is no expansion or contraction because you are not changing the pressure anywhere, just walking back and forth.

In your theory, how do your atmosphere-stacks know where you are inside the box?

Ok, you say enclose it.
Even enclosed you are in normal atmospheric conditions. You are in 14/15 psi of pressure and your body including the see saw and everything inside that enclosed area all displace the atmosphere within.

The very second you move, you change your atmospheric displacement to where you end up and the atmosphere fills the space you left behind. This is immediate.
The very second you move a finger...a foot.....and arm...or your entire body...you change the area of displacement.
If you are stood on a see saw you also change the foundation position.

Let's see how you deal with this to see where we go from here.

Yes, that's how it works.  You walk from one end to the other, your body displaces air and it moves to where you were inside the box.

Outside the box, how do air-stacks know you moved?  The box doesn't expand or contract.  How does anything on the outside know you moved, so it can push harder on the sea-saw?

If you move inside your dense mass shifts/displaces the air at that point, leaving that air to equalise where you left.
You now alter the expansion on the box to the external/outside.
Have you ever moved through a material tunnel?
Have you ever seen people move through one whilst you look at it rippling?
But you wouldn't see this with a box....right?
But you should know it's happening.
You're altering the pressure as you move. You're creating expansion as you move.

Gravity works fine. How do air-stacks know to push on one side of the box or the other?

You have absolutely no clue why and how gravity works. It's a made up name to describe something that is nothing more than a nonsense. A fantasy. A nothing.
You might as well say invisible unicorns drag objects to the floor. It's absolutely nonsense and you absolutely cannot explain it as a force.

Quote from: sceptimatic on September 25, 2020, 02:30:44 AM

Quote from: Stash on September 25, 2020, 12:17:48 AM

Kind of a combined answer as your two responses relate.

Using the steel containers metaphor. Your displacement explanation does not work in this scenario. The expansion/contraction of the steel tanks is imperceptible and immeasurable. Unlike a balloon or football. So don't go all apples and oranges here.

It may seem like apples and oranges but it is far from it.It just requires though into what I'm saying.
The train iron tyre should give you a massive clue as to steel expansion and contraction.
Every action must have an equal and opposite reaction somewhere. It has to.
You only get out of something what you put into it and that's another clue to it.

Quote from: Stash

The displacement of the 'expanding' steel tank is equivalent to me sticking my fist into an Olympic sized swimming pool and expecting any sort of relevant displacement to occur. Worse still, you're talking not about a swimming pool but the entire atmosphere of the planet flattish Earth dome being displaced by gas flowing from one non-maleable 5 gallon tank to another.

You're simply not looking at it from my point; you're making your own point and omitting the rest.

Your fist is already in the pool. It now about what your fist has to do in that pool, such as hold another mass. By holding another mass in your fist, your fist has to squeeze and by squeezing....your fist has to expand to keep hold of the mass.
This is your tank holding a mass. The mass comes directly from Earth. It was already there and you have forced it into a tank and that tank, in order to hold it....has to be strong enough to expand, just like the iron tyre does to fit on a train wheel.
Because you don't see this expansion and contraction, naturally you think it's not there.
Now you can ponder as to the expansion being a nothing when put against the atmosphere but you must know that to get all of that mass into the tank, you have to take all that mass from the Earth and FORCE it in.
How much force is required to do that? It's not a nothing.....is it?

My fist is not already in the pool. I put my fist in the pool which causes displacement in the pool. But obviously nothing that would cause any perceptible or actionable displacement to really occur. The same for th other examples, especially when we are talking about the entire atmosphere, not just a pool.

You keep referencing an 'equal and opposite reaction' (which is ironic, but we can get to that later). In the tanks scenario, this imperceptible/immeasurable expansion and contraction that you claim occurs should impart and equal and opposite reaction in terms of displacement causing pressure in the atmosphere to push one tank down as it fills and gets heavier and push less so as one tank rises as it empties and gets lighter. But how is this imperceptible/immeasurable expansion and contraction of the tanks 'equal' to the rise and fall of the weights of the tank? It's not even close to 'equal'. So again, there's no way for the atmosphere to know which stack to press down harder on - It has no equal and opposite reaction that it's privy to. What's going on inside the sealed tanks is invisible to the atmosphere. And this expansion/contraction displacement is so minute, if at all, that it couldn't impart the very large and real amount the tanks are lessened and gained in weight.

In short, there is not an equal and opposite reaction displacing the atmosphere and the atmosphere has no idea what is going on inside the tanks.

Just like in JJA's sealed teeter totter example. The atmosphere has no idea who is walking from one side over the fulcrum to the other causing an opposite tilt. The atmosphere can't form a new heavier stack as the person moves because it has no idea the person is even moving.

Maybe you'll get a better idea with the above post from me, to him.

Try and factor in the dense mass of any object within and you won't keep confuffling yourself.

I would only need to do that if we accept that it isn't air pushing it down.

It is an enclosed box. I accept that the air outside the box can push the box around, and I accept that the air inside the box can push things inside the box down.
There is no basis for thinking the air inside the box can push the box down.
As such, with the air being the cause there is no need to consider any mass inside the box.

You really need to reference this, because I say it time and time and time again and yet you fail to register it. I find that bizarre,  to be fair.
Pressure is created by the object by displacement. What you push into and displace by your own dense mass, is pushed right back against you or any object doing the same.

No, you need to explain why this just magically pushes down, rather than in all directions as the air is always observed to behave, and why at some times it then magically decides to change and instead push up, or sideways.

And of course, yet again you fail to address the issue of the scale vs pressure gauge.
Once more, if your magic air was causing weight, they should behave the same.
They don't, thus your model is wrong.

Heres another analogy for you then.

Line of sight

You are 1000ft up in the air looking down.
You see JJA walk into a shipping container.
But you cant see through the shipping container.
The container is also connected by a small tunnel to a 2nd container.
It is possible he could crawl through to the 2nd.
But you cant see through either.

Is JJA in the 1st container or the 2nd?

Quote from: JJA on September 26, 2020, 07:46:52 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on September 25, 2020, 11:15:40 PM

Quote from: JJA on September 25, 2020, 08:41:05 AM

  Lets eliminate the whole expansion/contraction nonsense.

Take this sea-saw, and enclose it.



Now walk from one end to the other, and gravity will pull you down, making the sea-saw tilt to whatever side you are standing.

It's completely enclosed, there is no expansion or contraction because you are not changing the pressure anywhere, just walking back and forth.

In your theory, how do your atmosphere-stacks know where you are inside the box?

Ok, you say enclose it.
Even enclosed you are in normal atmospheric conditions. You are in 14/15 psi of pressure and your body including the see saw and everything inside that enclosed area all displace the atmosphere within.

The very second you move, you change your atmospheric displacement to where you end up and the atmosphere fills the space you left behind. This is immediate.
The very second you move a finger...a foot.....and arm...or your entire body...you change the area of displacement.
If you are stood on a see saw you also change the foundation position.

Let's see how you deal with this to see where we go from here.

Yes, that's how it works.  You walk from one end to the other, your body displaces air and it moves to where you were inside the box.

Outside the box, how do air-stacks know you moved?  The box doesn't expand or contract.  How does anything on the outside know you moved, so it can push harder on the sea-saw?

If you move inside your dense mass shifts/displaces the air at that point, leaving that air to equalise where you left.
You now alter the expansion on the box to the external/outside.
Have you ever moved through a material tunnel?
Have you ever seen people move through one whilst you look at it rippling?
But you wouldn't see this with a box....right?
But you should know it's happening.
You're altering the pressure as you move. You're creating expansion as you move.

No, no and no.

The box doesn't expand and contract because you move about inside.  That's not how pressure works.

The box doesn't change shape if you just shift things inside around.  The pressure pushing on the box is going to be the same if I am on the left side or right side.

The box does not expand when I walk from one side to the other, why would it? 

Quote from: sceptimatic on September 27, 2020, 01:12:55 AM

Try and factor in the dense mass of any object within and you won't keep confuffling yourself.

I would only need to do that if we accept that it isn't air pushing it down.

It is an enclosed box. I accept that the air outside the box can push the box around, and I accept that the air inside the box can push things inside the box down.
There is no basis for thinking the air inside the box can push the box down.
As such, with the air being the cause there is no need to consider any mass inside the box.

The air inside the box doesn't push the box down. The box is already being pushed back on as it, itself pushes into the atmosphere by it's own dense mass.
Inside is just part of that dense mass.
By you moving inside, you change the dense mass from the centre to whichever side you move to, which displaces the air in those points.

Heres another analogy for you then.

Line of sight

You are 1000ft up in the air looking down.
You see JJA walk into a shipping container.
But you cant see through the shipping container.
The container is also connected by a small tunnel to a 2nd container.
It is possible he could crawl through to the 2nd.
But you cant see through either.

Is JJA in the 1st container or the 2nd?

I wouldn't know unless I knew the measured mass of each container and they would need to be sitting on a scale plate.
How am I supposed to know without seeing?

I don't get why you're using this. It makes no sense...unless you can enlighten me.

No, no and no.

The box doesn't expand and contract because you move about inside.  That's not how pressure works.

The box doesn't change shape if you just shift things inside around.  The pressure pushing on the box is going to be the same if I am on the left side or right side.

The box does not expand when I walk from one side to the other, why would it?

Really?
Ever popped the lid off something because something inside has moved the air in it?

If you displace atmosphere anywhere, you create pressure in the direction you move. This happens outside of the box or inside of it.

Your issue is in getting your head around it...as it is with the rest.

Sometimes I see people inch closer and then totally do a back flip and go right back to square one.
Jane's been the closest but even Jane hasn't grasped it all...yet she took the time to get quite a bit of it.

I'm waiting for that next mind to drop into simple logic....because this is what it boils down to, when grasped.

Quote from: Stash on September 26, 2020, 03:03:12 PM

Quote from: sceptimatic on September 25, 2020, 02:30:44 AM

Quote from: Stash on September 25, 2020, 12:17:48 AM

Kind of a combined answer as your two responses relate.

Using the steel containers metaphor. Your displacement explanation does not work in this scenario. The expansion/contraction of the steel tanks is imperceptible and immeasurable. Unlike a balloon or football. So don't go all apples and oranges here.

It may seem like apples and oranges but it is far from it.It just requires though into what I'm saying.
The train iron tyre should give you a massive clue as to steel expansion and contraction.
Every action must have an equal and opposite reaction somewhere. It has to.
You only get out of something what you put into it and that's another clue to it.

Quote from: Stash

The displacement of the 'expanding' steel tank is equivalent to me sticking my fist into an Olympic sized swimming pool and expecting any sort of relevant displacement to occur. Worse still, you're talking not about a swimming pool but the entire atmosphere of the planet flattish Earth dome being displaced by gas flowing from one non-maleable 5 gallon tank to another.

You're simply not looking at it from my point; you're making your own point and omitting the rest.

Your fist is already in the pool. It now about what your fist has to do in that pool, such as hold another mass. By holding another mass in your fist, your fist has to squeeze and by squeezing....your fist has to expand to keep hold of the mass.
This is your tank holding a mass. The mass comes directly from Earth. It was already there and you have forced it into a tank and that tank, in order to hold it....has to be strong enough to expand, just like the iron tyre does to fit on a train wheel.
Because you don't see this expansion and contraction, naturally you think it's not there.
Now you can ponder as to the expansion being a nothing when put against the atmosphere but you must know that to get all of that mass into the tank, you have to take all that mass from the Earth and FORCE it in.
How much force is required to do that? It's not a nothing.....is it?

My fist is not already in the pool. I put my fist in the pool which causes displacement in the pool. But obviously nothing that would cause any perceptible or actionable displacement to really occur. The same for th other examples, especially when we are talking about the entire atmosphere, not just a pool.

You keep referencing an 'equal and opposite reaction' (which is ironic, but we can get to that later). In the tanks scenario, this imperceptible/immeasurable expansion and contraction that you claim occurs should impart and equal and opposite reaction in terms of displacement causing pressure in the atmosphere to push one tank down as it fills and gets heavier and push less so as one tank rises as it empties and gets lighter. But how is this imperceptible/immeasurable expansion and contraction of the tanks 'equal' to the rise and fall of the weights of the tank? It's not even close to 'equal'. So again, there's no way for the atmosphere to know which stack to press down harder on - It has no equal and opposite reaction that it's privy to. What's going on inside the sealed tanks is invisible to the atmosphere. And this expansion/contraction displacement is so minute, if at all, that it couldn't impart the very large and real amount the tanks are lessened and gained in weight.

In short, there is not an equal and opposite reaction displacing the atmosphere and the atmosphere has no idea what is going on inside the tanks.

Just like in JJA's sealed teeter totter example. The atmosphere has no idea who is walking from one side over the fulcrum to the other causing an opposite tilt. The atmosphere can't form a new heavier stack as the person moves because it has no idea the person is even moving.

Maybe you'll get a better idea with the above post from me, to him.

No, it still doesn't make sense. In JJA's boxed teeter totter, as a heavy person moves from one side over the fulcrum leaving the lighter person on the starting side and ends at the other side, heavy guy lowers, light guy raises, the outside the box atmosphere is completely undisturbed. It has no idea what has occurred inside the box. How would it?
And inside the box, it's not under any pressure, a heavy guy moving from one side to the other there's no displacement that occurs that is equal and opposite enough to lower him and raise the other.

Quote from: Themightykabool on September 27, 2020, 02:21:22 AM

Heres another analogy for you then.

Line of sight

You are 1000ft up in the air looking down.
You see JJA walk into a shipping container.
But you cant see through the shipping container.
The container is also connected by a small tunnel to a 2nd container.
It is possible he could crawl through to the 2nd.
But you cant see through either.

Is JJA in the 1st container or the 2nd?

I wouldn't know unless I knew the measured mass of each container and they would need to be sitting on a scale plate.


How am I supposed to know without seeing?

I don't get why you're using this. It makes no sense...unless you can enlighten me.

Quote from: JackBlack on September 27, 2020, 01:46:31 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on September 27, 2020, 01:12:55 AM

Try and factor in the dense mass of any object within and you won't keep confuffling yourself.

I would only need to do that if we accept that it isn't air pushing it down.

It is an enclosed box. I accept that the air outside the box can push the box around, and I accept that the air inside the box can push things inside the box down.
There is no basis for thinking the air inside the box can push the box down.
As such, with the air being the cause there is no need to consider any mass inside the box.

The air inside the box doesn't push the box down. The box is already being pushed back on as it, itself pushes into the atmosphere by it's own dense mass.
Inside is just part of that dense mass.
By you moving inside, you change the dense mass from the centre to whichever side you move to, which displaces the air in those points.

By this logic the outside-the-box air doesnt see the difference inside the box and can not push down any different on the inside contents of the box.
Inside-the-box air is responsible for pushing the inside-the-box objects giving those objects their weight.

In JJA's boxed teeter totter, as a heavy person moves from one side over the fulcrum leaving the lighter person on the starting side and ends at the other side, heavy guy lowers, light guy raises, the outside the box atmosphere is completely undisturbed. It has no idea what has occurred inside the box. How would it?
And inside the box, it's not under any pressure, a heavy guy moving from one side to the other there's no displacement that occurs that is equal and opposite enough to lower him and raise the other.

Air is still being displaced inside the rectangular box.
This displaces atmosphere outside of it by changing the expansion of it on one side and contraction at the other when the person moves their dense mass.

Quote from: sceptimatic on September 27, 2020, 10:36:18 PM

Quote from: Themightykabool on September 27, 2020, 02:21:22 AM

Heres another analogy for you then.

Line of sight

You are 1000ft up in the air looking down.
You see JJA walk into a shipping container.
But you cant see through the shipping container.
The container is also connected by a small tunnel to a 2nd container.
It is possible he could crawl through to the 2nd.
But you cant see through either.

Is JJA in the 1st container or the 2nd?

I wouldn't know unless I knew the measured mass of each container and they would need to be sitting on a scale plate.


How am I supposed to know without seeing?

I don't get why you're using this. It makes no sense...unless you can enlighten me.

Quote from: sceptimatic on September 27, 2020, 10:33:46 PM

Quote from: JackBlack on September 27, 2020, 01:46:31 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on September 27, 2020, 01:12:55 AM

Try and factor in the dense mass of any object within and you won't keep confuffling yourself.

I would only need to do that if we accept that it isn't air pushing it down.

It is an enclosed box. I accept that the air outside the box can push the box around, and I accept that the air inside the box can push things inside the box down.
There is no basis for thinking the air inside the box can push the box down.
As such, with the air being the cause there is no need to consider any mass inside the box.

The air inside the box doesn't push the box down. The box is already being pushed back on as it, itself pushes into the atmosphere by it's own dense mass.
Inside is just part of that dense mass.
By you moving inside, you change the dense mass from the centre to whichever side you move to, which displaces the air in those points.

By this logic the outside-the-box air doesnt see the difference inside the box and can not push down any different on the inside contents of the box.
Inside-the-box air is responsible for pushing the inside-the-box objects giving those objects their weight.

You move air inside the box which directly affects outside of the box.
You can't get your head around it because it seems trivial. But it's not trivial.

If you were to put a rubber cup to a surface and only slightly push on it, you find the cup is firmly stuck to that surface.
Why?
Because you transferred the pressure from inside to outside.

The see saw and sealed box may be a different set up but it transfers just the same if something pushes into any part of it, inside. It directly changes the push back from outside.

Based on your reasoning, I should be able to take a small oxygen tank, suspend it from a wire so it's balanced, shake the tank from side to side and release, and watch the tank teeter totter at the balance point until the slosh effect equalizes.

Is that correct?

Quote from: Stash on September 27, 2020, 11:22:15 PM

In JJA's boxed teeter totter, as a heavy person moves from one side over the fulcrum leaving the lighter person on the starting side and ends at the other side, heavy guy lowers, light guy raises, the outside the box atmosphere is completely undisturbed. It has no idea what has occurred inside the box. How would it?
And inside the box, it's not under any pressure, a heavy guy moving from one side to the other there's no displacement that occurs that is equal and opposite enough to lower him and raise the other.

Air is still being displaced inside the rectangular box.
This displaces atmosphere outside of it by changing the expansion of it on one side and contraction at the other when the person moves their dense mass.

The atmosphere outside the box has no idea what's going on inside the box. And one part of the box is not expanding and the other side contracting from any sort of displacement inside the box. That's like saying that by sticking my fist in a pool of water and moving it 5' feet somehow displaces the water so that it rises on one side of the pool and lowers on the other. That does not happen. How would the box expand in one place and contract in another?




In either scenario, the outside atmosphere is agnostic to what's going on inside the box. And the box is not expanding or contracting. And there is only the atmosphere inside the box which is not nearly enough to cause any sort of displacement effect. Something else is causing the teeter totter to tilt due to the fat guy's weight. I'm afraid DenPressure cannot address this case study.

Redraw that picture wih the frame of reference as the box.
Nothing changes as far as box people and as far as inside-box air can see.
Neither has contact with the outside-box world.
So
Then
Why down?

Redraw that picture wih the frame of reference as the box.
Nothing changes as far as box people and as far as inside-box air can see.
Neither has contact with the outside-box world.
So
Then
Why down?

That would be more like this:

The air inside the box doesn't push the box down.

Which means any motion inside is irreverent, as displacing air inside the box is irrelevant.
You have the outside air pushing it down, and thus it is only its displacement which matters.
Thus moving around inside the box should have no affect. It should not cause it to suddenly tip when you move the centre of gravity out of the supported region.

So your model fails yet again, just like your model fails to explain why the scale records no significant increase in mass due to the introduction of the second kg weight while the pressure does record a significant increase in pressure.

Ever popped the lid off something because something inside has moved the air in it?

Only by having the air inside significantly expand due to heating or a reaction. Not by simply moving an object inside it.

Jane's been the closest but even Jane hasn't grasped it all...yet she took the time to get quite a bit of it.

I'm waiting for that next mind to drop into simple logic....because this is what it boils down to, when grasped.

No, what it boils down to is completely discarding reality and logic and just following you down the rabbit hole, wherever the nonsense leads.
That is how Jane grasped so much according to you. She didn't care if your model worked or matched reality.

Other people have grasped plenty. The problem is that your model doesn't match reality, and even contradicts itself. Because of that, they don't see the point in going further down the rabbit hole.
If you want your model to be able to describe reality why bother going into needless complexities when the basics don't even work?

Following simple logic YOUR MODEL IS WRONG!

Your repeated refusal to address basic issues shows just how wrong it is.

Quote from: Themightykabool on September 28, 2020, 11:52:32 AM

Redraw that picture wih the frame of reference as the box.
Nothing changes as far as box people and as far as inside-box air can see.
Neither has contact with the outside-box world.
So
Then
Why down?

That would be more like this:

Haha perfect.
Ok sceppy.
Add some lines showing the air pushes on the where the man is in picture 3 and 4.

Based on your reasoning, I should be able to take a small oxygen tank, suspend it from a wire so it's balanced, shake the tank from side to side and release, and watch the tank teeter totter at the balance point until the slosh effect equalizes.

Is that correct?

Not quite sure what you're getting at.

Quote from: sceptimatic on September 28, 2020, 08:19:36 AM

Quote from: Stash on September 27, 2020, 11:22:15 PM

In JJA's boxed teeter totter, as a heavy person moves from one side over the fulcrum leaving the lighter person on the starting side and ends at the other side, heavy guy lowers, light guy raises, the outside the box atmosphere is completely undisturbed. It has no idea what has occurred inside the box. How would it?
And inside the box, it's not under any pressure, a heavy guy moving from one side to the other there's no displacement that occurs that is equal and opposite enough to lower him and raise the other.

Air is still being displaced inside the rectangular box.
This displaces atmosphere outside of it by changing the expansion of it on one side and contraction at the other when the person moves their dense mass.

The atmosphere outside the box has no idea what's going on inside the box. And one part of the box is not expanding and the other side contracting from any sort of displacement inside the box. That's like saying that by sticking my fist in a pool of water and moving it 5' feet somehow displaces the water so that it rises on one side of the pool and lowers on the other. That does not happen. How would the box expand in one place and contract in another?




In either scenario, the outside atmosphere is agnostic to what's going on inside the box. And the box is not expanding or contracting. And there is only the atmosphere inside the box which is not nearly enough to cause any sort of displacement effect. Something else is causing the teeter totter to tilt due to the fat guy's weight. I'm afraid DenPressure cannot address this case study.

Before a person gets into the box, that person displaces his own dense mass of that atmosphere.
The box is at the same pressure as outside.
Once you take out the person from the atmosphere and put him inside the box, you displace the amount of air inside the box by the dense mass of the person.
That air has been pushed outside and is now added to the external pressure upon the box with that dense mass inside, in the stack and it's important to understand the stack.

The stack is now unbalanced by angle of the box due to that change.
The box feels the pressure difference in that stacking system.

This is why it gets pushed down as it pushes into the stack, leaving it angled in a higher pressure...as minimal as it may appear.

Quote from: sceptimatic on September 27, 2020, 10:33:46 PM

The air inside the box doesn't push the box down.

Which means any motion inside is irreverent, as displacing air inside the box is irrelevant.
You have the outside air pushing it down, and thus it is only its displacement which matters.

It's irrelevant to you because you're not looking at it from my side.

Quote from: Stash on September 28, 2020, 01:52:51 PM

Quote from: Themightykabool on September 28, 2020, 11:52:32 AM

Redraw that picture wih the frame of reference as the box.
Nothing changes as far as box people and as far as inside-box air can see.
Neither has contact with the outside-box world.
So
Then
Why down?

That would be more like this:

Haha perfect.
Ok sceppy.
Add some lines showing the air pushes on the where the man is in picture 3 and 4.

Take a look at the box  which is angled already in the stack. That's a major key.
I've asked you all, time and time and time again to understand the stacking system.

Quote from: Stash on September 28, 2020, 10:09:16 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on September 28, 2020, 08:19:36 AM

Quote from: Stash on September 27, 2020, 11:22:15 PM

In JJA's boxed teeter totter, as a heavy person moves from one side over the fulcrum leaving the lighter person on the starting side and ends at the other side, heavy guy lowers, light guy raises, the outside the box atmosphere is completely undisturbed. It has no idea what has occurred inside the box. How would it?
And inside the box, it's not under any pressure, a heavy guy moving from one side to the other there's no displacement that occurs that is equal and opposite enough to lower him and raise the other.

Air is still being displaced inside the rectangular box.
This displaces atmosphere outside of it by changing the expansion of it on one side and contraction at the other when the person moves their dense mass.

The atmosphere outside the box has no idea what's going on inside the box. And one part of the box is not expanding and the other side contracting from any sort of displacement inside the box. That's like saying that by sticking my fist in a pool of water and moving it 5' feet somehow displaces the water so that it rises on one side of the pool and lowers on the other. That does not happen. How would the box expand in one place and contract in another?




In either scenario, the outside atmosphere is agnostic to what's going on inside the box. And the box is not expanding or contracting. And there is only the atmosphere inside the box which is not nearly enough to cause any sort of displacement effect. Something else is causing the teeter totter to tilt due to the fat guy's weight. I'm afraid DenPressure cannot address this case study.

Before a person gets into the box, that person displaces his own dense mass of that atmosphere.
The box is at the same pressure as outside.
Once you take out the person from the atmosphere and put him inside the box, you displace the amount of air inside the box by the dense mass of the person.
That air has been pushed outside and is now added to the external pressure upon the box with that dense mass inside, in the stack and it's important to understand the stack.

The stack is now unbalanced by angle of the box due to that change.
The box feels the pressure difference in that stacking system.

This is why it gets pushed down as it pushes into the stack, leaving it angled in a higher pressure...as minimal as it may appear.

There's no "angle of the box" in #3 & #4.The box has no angle and the box does't move to create any angle. The box remains stationary. So I don't know what you are referring to and the outside atmosphere has no knowledge about what is going on with the 'stacks' inside the box. Can you address panels #3 & #4 where the box is around the entire set-up not just around the fat guy and skinny guy as in panels #1 & #2?

Quote from: JackBlack on September 28, 2020, 02:18:41 PM

Quote from: sceptimatic on September 27, 2020, 10:33:46 PM

The air inside the box doesn't push the box down.

Which means any motion inside is irreverent, as displacing air inside the box is irrelevant.
You have the outside air pushing it down, and thus it is only its displacement which matters.

It's irrelevant to you because you're not looking at it from my side.

No, it is irrelevant because I am looking at it using logic, something you seem to avoid at all costs.

The motion of the air inside cannot cause the box to tilt, as it would have to push off the box.

You need to explain how the air outside the box magically knows where the mass is inside the box to push the box appropriately.