Another mass shooting...

Quote from: ﮎingulaЯiτy on April 28, 2018, 05:33:44 PM

Quote from: Bullwinkle on April 28, 2018, 05:21:56 PM

Quote from: ﮎingulaЯiτy on April 28, 2018, 05:11:47 PM

However, it has been established that the NRA directly backed the lawyers arguing for individual gun rights. NRA lobbying and financial backing certainly went into controlling the outcome of that case.

It's quite a leap going from paying lawyer fees to controlling the outcome of a case.

Ah I meant to say "attempting to control". My mistake.

Lawyers on both sides got paid.

I wasn't objecting to them getting paid. I was calling attention to the concerted efforts of a vested interest.

Quote from: Bullwinkle on April 28, 2018, 05:51:08 PM

Quote from: ﮎingulaЯiτy on April 28, 2018, 05:33:44 PM

Quote from: Bullwinkle on April 28, 2018, 05:21:56 PM

Quote from: ﮎingulaЯiτy on April 28, 2018, 05:11:47 PM

However, it has been established that the NRA directly backed the lawyers arguing for individual gun rights. NRA lobbying and financial backing certainly went into controlling the outcome of that case.

It's quite a leap going from paying lawyer fees to controlling the outcome of a case.

Ah I meant to say "attempting to control". My mistake.

Lawyers on both sides got paid.

I wasn't objecting to them getting paid. I was calling attention to the concerted efforts of a vested interest.

Which side does not have an interest in the outcome?

Quote from: ﮎingulaЯiτy on April 28, 2018, 08:30:05 PM

Quote from: Bullwinkle on April 28, 2018, 05:51:08 PM

Quote from: ﮎingulaЯiτy on April 28, 2018, 05:33:44 PM

Quote from: Bullwinkle on April 28, 2018, 05:21:56 PM

Quote from: ﮎingulaЯiτy on April 28, 2018, 05:11:47 PM

However, it has been established that the NRA directly backed the lawyers arguing for individual gun rights. NRA lobbying and financial backing certainly went into controlling the outcome of that case.

It's quite a leap going from paying lawyer fees to controlling the outcome of a case.

Ah I meant to say "attempting to control". My mistake.

Lawyers on both sides got paid.

I wasn't objecting to them getting paid. I was calling attention to the concerted efforts of a vested interest.

Which side does not have an interest in the outcome?

lol, I wasn't objecting to the NRA as being invested in the outcome either.

If you are digging for my reasons for my own personal condemnation of the NRA, let me help you out:
Looking at just the Heller case (and not the plethora of shady business practices and propaganda), then I personally condemn them for injecting themselves and ~3.5 million dollars worth of legal interference into the court proceedings of an existing two party civil suit between Heller and the State in which the NRA had no legal standing to bring a suit themselves.

I personally define "government corruption" as the undue influence of a third party interfering in normal government operations in order to appease government figures or shape government policies for personal gain/profit.

Ex. Bribing a police officer to overlook your crimes would be corruption.
Ex. Big Oil giving gifts to senators to pass their laws would be corruption.

The normal government operations would have been between 1. the people who are interested in trying to adhere to the historical precedents and preserve the founder's intent for guns and enforce the existing laws, and 2. the security guard who was was suing the government because he was denied a gun permit under the current laws.

The NRA was a third party who had no role as either plaintiff nor defendant. They were just a wealthy organization who stood to profit off the rampant proliferation of guns. I consider any gifts that may have been bestowed to any judges, and any legal teams inserted into those court proceedings to be inappropriate and immoral influences. Summarily, I consider them a literal source of corruption.

https://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Shots-fired-at-Santa-Fe-High-School-12925050.php

Get your thoughts and prayers ready people.

I'd like say I didn't expect another shooting in 'murica, but it would be a lie.

Dammit, this is really fucked up.

I'm sure in a few days there will be hilarious man on the street interviews where they make fun of people for not knowing what the AR in AR-15 stands for.

I'm sure in a few days there will be hilarious man on the street interviews where they make fun of people for not knowing what the AR in AR-15 stands for.

To be fair, I wouldn't really expect too many people to know that the "AR" stands for ArmaLite rifle (for the company that designed it).

Exactly, but after the last school shooting the gun nuts were doing that. Just like a few years ago they were making a big deal out of people not knowing the difference between a magazine and a clip.

I've got to say these people brandishing AR-15's are looking pretty sick to me.  I can't look at that particular gun without thinking of all of the children its been used to massacre.

https://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Shots-fired-at-Santa-Fe-High-School-12925050.php

Get your thoughts and prayers ready people.

Turns out the suspected shooter is Greek 

Quote from: crutonius on May 18, 2018, 09:37:11 AM

https://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Shots-fired-at-Santa-Fe-High-School-12925050.php

Get your thoughts and prayers ready people.

Turns out the suspected shooter is Greek 

Well that is surprising.

But then again, the greeks are s.o.w - ask botd if you don't believe me.

I've got to say these people brandishing AR-15's are looking pretty sick to me.  I can't look at that particular gun without thinking of all of the children its been used to massacre.

Well, thankfully for you, he used a shotgun and a revolver, thus disproving the myth that only rifles similar to the AR can be used to cause this much damage.

Quote from: crutonius on May 18, 2018, 11:39:01 AM

I've got to say these people brandishing AR-15's are looking pretty sick to me.  I can't look at that particular gun without thinking of all of the children its been used to massacre.

Well, thankfully for you, he used a shotgun and a revolver, thus disproving the myth that only rifles similar to the AR can be used to cause this much damage.

My mistake.  I saw a very early report that an AR-15 had been used.  Apparently that report was wrong.

I have only one word for the USA.    Buyback.

Disclaimer:  I used to go duck shooting and fox hunting in my younger days,  (I live in a rural area)  and go with some friends to shoot every so often at a local pistol range.  I'm not anti-gun,  I just think some Americans don't have the psychological stability or temperament to have access to a firearm.

If you own a firearm in Australia, you must keep it in a locked approved firearms safe, and ammunition stored and secured separately.    A condition of the license is that the police have the right to enter you home at any time to ensure you are in compliance.   

EDIT:  For those interested,  the Victorian Firearms storage laws.  http://www.police.vic.gov.au/content.asp?Document_ID=36210

I have only one word for the USA.    Buyback.

Disclaimer:  I used to go duck shooting and fox hunting in my younger days,  (I live in a rural area)  and go with some friends to shoot every so often at a local pistol range.  I'm not anti-gun,  I just think some Americans don't have the psychological stability or temperament to have access to a firearm.

If you own a firearm in Australia, you must keep it in a locked approved firearms safe, and ammunition stored and secured separately.    A condition of the license is that the police have the right to enter you home at any time to ensure you are in compliance.

A buyback may work when theres at most 2 million guns in a culture that doesn't view firearms as a fundamental right, but you're talking about over 400 million guns and a culture where whether agree or disagree with it, views guns as important as free speech. Buybacks have tried and failed miserably over here.

Ways I can think of that would have stopped this.

Bullet proof vests for all students.

Ban all Greeks and put the Helenic Republic on the terrorist watch list.

Put pressure on gun owners to properly secure their firearms.

Some of these methods might be more effective than others.

Quote from: Rayzor on May 18, 2018, 06:54:46 PM

I have only one word for the USA.    Buyback.

Disclaimer:  I used to go duck shooting and fox hunting in my younger days,  (I live in a rural area)  and go with some friends to shoot every so often at a local pistol range.  I'm not anti-gun,  I just think some Americans don't have the psychological stability or temperament to have access to a firearm.

If you own a firearm in Australia, you must keep it in a locked approved firearms safe, and ammunition stored and secured separately.    A condition of the license is that the police have the right to enter you home at any time to ensure you are in compliance.

A buyback may work when theres at most 2 million guns in a culture that doesn't view firearms as a fundamental right, but you're talking about over 400 million guns and a culture where whether agree or disagree with it, views guns as important as free speech. Buybacks have tried and failed miserably over here.

You need a politician with the guts to take on the gun lobby.   Maybe start with a referendum on the second amendment.   

There were 10,204 civillans killed in Syria in 2017,  http://www.iamsyria.org/syrian-conflict-in-2017.html

Care to guess how many gun deaths in the USA for the same period.

Quote from: Luke 22:35-38 on May 18, 2018, 07:09:19 PM

Quote from: Rayzor on May 18, 2018, 06:54:46 PM

I have only one word for the USA.    Buyback.

Disclaimer:  I used to go duck shooting and fox hunting in my younger days,  (I live in a rural area)  and go with some friends to shoot every so often at a local pistol range.  I'm not anti-gun,  I just think some Americans don't have the psychological stability or temperament to have access to a firearm.

If you own a firearm in Australia, you must keep it in a locked approved firearms safe, and ammunition stored and secured separately.    A condition of the license is that the police have the right to enter you home at any time to ensure you are in compliance.

A buyback may work when theres at most 2 million guns in a culture that doesn't view firearms as a fundamental right, but you're talking about over 400 million guns and a culture where whether agree or disagree with it, views guns as important as free speech. Buybacks have tried and failed miserably over here.

You need a politician with the guts to take on the gun lobby.   Maybe start with a referendum on the second amendment.   

There were 10,204 civillans killed in Syria in 2017,  http://www.iamsyria.org/syrian-conflict-in-2017.html

Care to guess how many gun deaths in the USA for the same period.

The gun lobby is millions of law abiding citizens. And there were around 30,000 gun deaths in the US however, 60% of those deaths were suicides (completely avoidable), and most of the homicides were in states and cities with strict gun laws. Plus the US is a whole lot bigger than Syria.

Quote from: Rayzor on May 18, 2018, 07:25:28 PM

Quote from: Luke 22:35-38 on May 18, 2018, 07:09:19 PM

Quote from: Rayzor on May 18, 2018, 06:54:46 PM

I have only one word for the USA.    Buyback.

Disclaimer:  I used to go duck shooting and fox hunting in my younger days,  (I live in a rural area)  and go with some friends to shoot every so often at a local pistol range.  I'm not anti-gun,  I just think some Americans don't have the psychological stability or temperament to have access to a firearm.

If you own a firearm in Australia, you must keep it in a locked approved firearms safe, and ammunition stored and secured separately.    A condition of the license is that the police have the right to enter you home at any time to ensure you are in compliance.

A buyback may work when theres at most 2 million guns in a culture that doesn't view firearms as a fundamental right, but you're talking about over 400 million guns and a culture where whether agree or disagree with it, views guns as important as free speech. Buybacks have tried and failed miserably over here.

You need a politician with the guts to take on the gun lobby.   Maybe start with a referendum on the second amendment.   

There were 10,204 civillans killed in Syria in 2017,  http://www.iamsyria.org/syrian-conflict-in-2017.html

Care to guess how many gun deaths in the USA for the same period.

The gun lobby is millions of law abiding citizens. And there were around 30,000 gun deaths in the US however, 60% of those deaths were suicides (completely avoidable), and most of the homicides were in states and cities with strict gun laws. Plus the US is a whole lot bigger than Syria.

That's true America is bigger than Syria.  But,  to take your first point,  I think gun owners are the in the minority in the US.  I think I saw a figure like 3%.

What side would be likely to win in a referendum on the 2nd amendment?    Given that a fair number of the 97% who don't own a gun, would still support the right for others to own a gun,  I'd think it's still likely the gun lobby would lose.

Them there's yer problem. 

Quote from: Luke 22:35-38 on May 18, 2018, 07:41:49 PM

Quote from: Rayzor on May 18, 2018, 07:25:28 PM

Quote from: Luke 22:35-38 on May 18, 2018, 07:09:19 PM

Quote from: Rayzor on May 18, 2018, 06:54:46 PM

I have only one word for the USA.    Buyback.

Disclaimer:  I used to go duck shooting and fox hunting in my younger days,  (I live in a rural area)  and go with some friends to shoot every so often at a local pistol range.  I'm not anti-gun,  I just think some Americans don't have the psychological stability or temperament to have access to a firearm.

If you own a firearm in Australia, you must keep it in a locked approved firearms safe, and ammunition stored and secured separately.    A condition of the license is that the police have the right to enter you home at any time to ensure you are in compliance.

A buyback may work when theres at most 2 million guns in a culture that doesn't view firearms as a fundamental right, but you're talking about over 400 million guns and a culture where whether agree or disagree with it, views guns as important as free speech. Buybacks have tried and failed miserably over here.

You need a politician with the guts to take on the gun lobby.   Maybe start with a referendum on the second amendment.   

There were 10,204 civillans killed in Syria in 2017,  http://www.iamsyria.org/syrian-conflict-in-2017.html

Care to guess how many gun deaths in the USA for the same period.

The gun lobby is millions of law abiding citizens. And there were around 30,000 gun deaths in the US however, 60% of those deaths were suicides (completely avoidable), and most of the homicides were in states and cities with strict gun laws. Plus the US is a whole lot bigger than Syria.

That's true America is bigger than Syria.  But,  to take your first point,  I think gun owners are the in the minority in the US.  I think I saw a figure like 3%.

What side would be likely to win in a referendum on the 2nd amendment?    Given that a fair number of the 97% who don't own a gun, would still support the right for others to own a gun,  I'd think it's still likely the gun lobby would lose.

That's an interesting question. I think most people would prefer guns as a privilege like driving as opposed to a right like speech. However the pro gun people look at it as a way of life so they have the edge in any referendum. Whereas the gun control people are only motivated when there's a problem. The nra knows this so they've gotten very good at derailing the conversation until the heat blows over.

The gun lobby is millions of law abiding citizens.

Actually, the gun lobby is mostly gun manufacturers.  Most of the millions of law abiding gun owners favor common sense gun regulations that terrify the gun lobby.

I've found a solution:

Ban schools.

No schools, no school shootings.

The problem is the shoot first, shoot later shoot some more mentality. These rednecks need to calm down and find better solutions to their problems.

Gun laws may be a good thing. But they won't fix a gun happy, 2nd amendment right fixated culture.

I would say that that mentality was useful in earlier times, when heaving that tea overboard and fighting them bloody British and winning independence and all that.. But seriously, chill out already. No one's going to try to take over the country by military force, and if they do, they won't even be in range of your rifle when they do it.

you're talking about over 400 million guns and a culture where whether agree or disagree with it, views guns as important as free speech.

Which is why you can't have nice things.

Ban all Greeks and put the Helenic Republic on the terrorist watch list.

Heiwa was one step ahead of everyone when he called me a terrorist. He is vindicated now.

When will America realise that these things happen only in America? Guns have to go.

Or we'll get to "Hey, I have the right to own my personal Tank."

You can own your own personal tank in the US.

You can own your own personal tank in the US.

Wow, you must live in a rough neighborhood?

You can own your own personal tank in the US.

Well, yeah, but at least people haven't gotten to the point they feel it's necessary to save up for them.

Quote from: jroa on May 19, 2018, 02:22:33 AM

You can own your own personal tank in the US.

Wow, you must live in a rough neighborhood?

I'm just imagining jroa typing out this post while his neighboor is trying to tear down his wall using his tank.