Solar eclipse...

  • 116 Replies
  • 30501 Views
*

Sentinel

  • 575
  • +0/-0
  • Open your eyes...
Re: Solar eclipse...
« Reply #90 on: August 07, 2017, 04:16:50 PM »
Ahhh... all the copypasta/walls of text, and still no explanation on how 'bout a Sun 12 miles in height.
Sandy's something else, obviously.  :-\
"No snowflake in an avalanche ever feels responsible."

Stanislaw Jerzy Lec

?

Zammo

  • 276
  • +0/-0
Re: Solar eclipse...
« Reply #91 on: August 07, 2017, 04:33:52 PM »
How many other people completely skip over sandokhans posts. I see his name and immediately scroll till I see another post. His posts are incoherent babble. For someone who thinks they've completely debunked modern physics, why hasn't he published it in a scientific journal? Is it because he knows that any physicist worth a damn would instantly know he's a damn moron? I think so!

Yep. Responded to a couple in the past, but now I just scroll through the copy pasta. Nothing but incoherent babble, as you say.
If I'm a complete Idiot for not believing in your Heliocentric fairytale then so be it.

?

Alpha2Omega

  • 4107
  • +1/-1
Re: Solar eclipse...
« Reply #92 on: August 07, 2017, 06:37:57 PM »
alphaomega, you should apply for disability, due to basic ignorance of scientific facts.

It's always interesting to anticipate what insult you'll dream up to open each post. You seldom disappoint in that regard.

Quote
The periodic infinite series discovered by Newcomb is STILL IN USE TODAY, for your information.

In fact KAM theory (Kolmogorov-Arnold-Moser) grew out of the research done on those infinite series.

The comment made by Professor W. Smart is still valid today, and will always be so.

This shows your basic ignorance of the history of the orbital equations of motion.

Dr. Robert Bass, one of the top astrophysicists of the 20th century, reminding your of your ignorance on the subject:

https://web.archive.org/web/20120916174745/http://www.innoventek.com:80/Bass1974PenseeAllegedProofsOfStabilityOfSolarSystemR.pdf

Go ahead, and write to your local university, informing them that Professor Smart's comment on the Newcomb infinite series is no longer valid, or in use, and they will laugh in your face.

Those equations are fully valid even today, for your information.

As such, Professor Smart's calculation is valid as well.

Equations aren't the same as data and numerical solutions. Even if the equations are the same, the solutions will be no better than the data provided. Numerical solutions, even using the same data, will improve if computational capabilities and techniques are better.

I do take it that "name dropper" must be a big part of your illustrious CV, however.

Quote
More bad news for the RE.

<another attempt to divert the discussion, to Saturn, this time>

One cannot bring the influence of the planets into the acceleration of the rate of precession, since the distances have not changed, and the mass of Jupiter, as an example, has decreased (and not increased) over time.

http://www.sciencefocus.com/article/space/jupiter%E2%80%99s-gravity-pulls-so-much-matter-planet-growing

The mass of Jupiter is DECREASING.

Now, you have more trouble on your hands.

Not only you have to explain the acceleration of the rate of precession, but also you'd have to account for these facts:

1. Solar mass is decreasing

2. Lunar distance from Earth is actually receding

3. Jupiter's mass is decreasing

4. Saturn's moons are receding at an increasing rate

Yes, yes, yes... you already brought those things up. Have you made any progress finding out where they fit into the numerical solar system models yet? Since you say nothing about it, I'll presume you haven't.

Quote

Now, let us go back to the precise calculations.

Simon Newcomb included a “constant” in his precession formula ... <repeated copy & paste from here, here,
here, and probably other places>

Repeating the same lame argument over and over doesn't make it true. Try something that has a basis in fact if you want rational people to agree with you. That would be a refreshing change.

Quote
Now, not only do the RE have to offset these slight diminishments in gravitational forces, but also to come up with larger effects in the opposite direction.

Does this mean you've abandoned your claim that the gravitational forces of the planets are infinitesimal, and in fact, actually matter? Well, at least that's progress!

Quote
The acceleration of the rate of precession cannot be explained by modern astronomy.

It is as simple as this.

According to you. We're supposed to believe that because you say so? Is that all you have?

Quote
More proofs that the unusual motion of Sirius is MINIMAL relative to the summer solstice:

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/2000JHA....31..149S

The heliacal rise of Sirius and ancient Egyptian chronology...
" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Again??!?

Quote
According to the current theory of lunisolar precession the pole, and therefore the equator of the Earth is supposed to “wobble” over a period of roughly 25800 years relative to the position of the fixed stars and the Sun. In other words, if we were to imagine the Earth ‘fixed’ in its revolution around the Sun at the time when Sirius is in conjunction with the Sun (e.g. during the Summer solstice), an observer would not only notice changes in the declination of Sirius and the other stars, but simultaneously equal changes in the declination of the Sun. In practice, however, Sirius does not show any significant variations in its position relative to the Summer solstice.[citation needed]

Do you understand English?

You keep asking this. You keep getting the same answer. Yes.

Do you expect the answer to change? Why? Isn't "doing the same thing over and over, expecting different results" one of the definitions of insanity?

Quote
In practice, however, Sirius does not show any significant variations in its position relative to the Summer solstice.

HOW DOES SIRIUS KNOW HOW TO ACCOUNT FOR NEWCOMB'S CONSTANT?

HOW CAN SIRIUS CALCULATE IN ADVANCE THE EXPONENTIAL INCREASE IN THE ACCELERATION OF THE RATE OF PRECESSION, IF ITS DISTANCE FROM THE SOLAR SYSTEM IS SOME 81 TRILLION KILOMETERS?


READ:

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/2000JHA....31..149S

The position of Sirius changes with time due to proper motion and precession.

Yes!!! You're getting it!!

Quote
And YET, in practice, however, Sirius does not show any significant variations in its position relative to the Summer solstice.

This statement is completely incompatible with your statement immediately preceding. Can you see why? Meanwhile you accuse everyone else of "cognitive dissonance". ::)

Quote
How does Sirius know how to account for Newcomb's constant? ...

I take it from your bluster, evasion, and repitition of irrelevancies that you haven't found any real data that really shows this. Am I right?

RA and Dec for Sirius in 1950, RA and Dec for Sirius in 2000, please. Are they the same? Yes or no? This information is readily available from sources that were widely used and relied upon when published in mid century, or still are in wide use and relied upon today for the newer data. If there were problems with that data, those problems would also have been widely known. "Oh, that darn Sirius! It's never where it's supposed to be!" said no professional astronomer, ever.

Why don't you acknowledge this? Is it because it completely refutes what you claim about Sirius, so you'd rather fall back to vague reports from antiquity that cannot be verified, and quotes out of context? It certainly seems like it.

The upshot, whether you like it or not, is that Sirius' celestial coordinates are affected by precession, same as other stars. Its proper motion is higher than most stars because it's closer to us than most stars are, but, even so, its proper motion is a tiny fraction of precession (I get 0.018° for proper motion from 1950 to 2000, about 3% of the total motion of 0.5425° from 1950 to 2000, mostly due to precession). It's as simple as that. Care to address this point? I doubt it, but might as well ask.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

*

sandokhan

  • Flat Earth Sultan
  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 7273
  • +7/-41
Re: Solar eclipse...
« Reply #93 on: August 07, 2017, 10:19:04 PM »
The most precise proof that Sirius has NOT undergone precessional movement from 1988 to 2007:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1718735#msg1718735



https://web.archive.org/web/20100305042618/http://www.siriusresearchgroup.com/diagrams/SiriusTransitObservations.shtml

http://www.binaryresearchinstitute.org/srg/SiriusResearch.shtml

Extended sidereal time-measurements from 6 April 1994 to 6 April 1996 revealed a total negative time deviation of 1.6 seconds from tropical-sidereal time. According to 'precession' this difference should be about 3.34 seconds per year. Hence a total negative deviation of about 6.68 seconds was to be expected, but did not occur in reality.

The continuous measurement of 6 April 1994 to 5 April 2000 confirmed this fact conclusively. In that period the total negative deviation of 'Sirius time' from the total mean sidereal time accumulated to 4.1 seconds. This means about negative 0.68 s per year (!). Again, according to 'precession' a negative time difference of 6 × 3.34 s or about 20 seconds should have occurred, but did NOT occur with respect to Sirius!

As a matter of fact, the mean rotation period of the earth relative to Sirius is nearly identical to the time interval of the mean sidereal day of 86164.09054 seconds.

Even more surprising is the observation that the mean time interval of the sidereal year, as measured with respect to Sirius is nearly identical (by less than one second) to the time interval of the tropical year. According to the theory of 'precession', a yearly time difference of about 1223 s is supposed to occur between a sidereal year and the tropical year.

The meridian transit measurements of Sirius have shown that neither a time difference of 6 × 1223 s, nor a difference of 6 × 3.34 s has occurred over the 6-year observation period from April 1994 to April 2000.

These observations clearly indicate that the so-called 'precession of the earth' is NOT a scientific fact.

 Note: The actual time difference between the mean solar day of 86400 seconds and the mean sidereal day of 86164.0905382 seconds is exactly 235.9094618 seconds per complete rotation. Due to earth's orbital motion this difference accumulates in a complete revolution of the earth to the time period of one complete solar day. Hence, the total number of earth's rotations in one complete 360° period of revolution around the sun is expressed by the following two equations:

86400 s ÷ 235.9094618 s = 366.24219878
365.24219878 × 86400 s = 366.24219878 × 86164.0905382 s


Practical Observation and Measurement of Sidereal Time with respect to Sirius:

My meridian transition time measurement with respect to Sirius (using the UTC atomic-time radio signal from WWV Fort Collins/Colorado), which I conducted over a period of 5 consecutive years, resulted in the following mean sidereal rotation time for the Earth.


Obviously, as indicated by the adjective mean all variations in time caused by periodic or any other fluctuations of the Earth's axis, as well as the assumed precession of the axis, must be included in the 5-year observation period. Technically speaking this is still the easiest and best available method to measure and determine a mean sidereal day.

First meridian transition time of Sirius on 20.04.1994 at 20:16:48.5 hours
Last meridian transition time of Sirius on 19.04.1999 at 20:21:34.5 hours

The total time span between those two measurements is exactly 157 680 286 seconds.
(5 calendar years including one leap day is 5 x 365 days of 86400 s each, plus the time difference of 286 s on the last day)

In this same time interval exactly 5 x 366 sidereal days (meridian transitions) were completed. As a result, the mean sidereal day with respect to Sirius is:

157 680 286 s ÷ 1830 = 86164.09071 seconds.

Note: The mean sidereal day is officially published with 86164.091 s mean solar time, while the mathematically calculated mean sidereal day is exactly 86164.0905382 seconds. Therefore, my precise measurement of 86164.09071 s with respect to Sirius is within the acceptable range of accuracy.

A maximum error in observation of ± 0.5 seconds between the two (first and last) meridian transition of Sirius during the period of 5 years would have the following results:

minimum: 157 680 285.5 s ÷ 1830 meridian transitions = 86164.09044 s
maximum: 157 680 286.5 s ÷ 1830 meridian transitions = 86164.09098 s

Due to the apparent precession, the measurable mean sidereal day should be about 86164.09966 seconds, since logically the actual mean rotation time of the Earth by 86164.0905382 seconds can only be measured with a delay in time relative to the inertial position of the fixed stars. In other words, if precession were indeed to occur, absolutely no fixed star can ever have a mean meridian transition time of 86164.0905382 seconds.

This physical fact would imply that my measurement with respect to Sirius contains an error of observation by about 16.7 seconds (5 x 3.34 s per year), not to mention the +1223 s with each sidereal year!

https://web.archive.org/web/20040214111127/http://www.siriusresearchgroup.com/article3.htm









Extended sidereal time-measurements from 6 April 1994 to 6 April 1996 revealed a total negative time deviation of 1.6 seconds from tropical-sidereal time. According to 'precession' this difference should be about 3.34 seconds per year. Hence a total negative deviation of about 6.68 seconds was to be expected, but did not occur in reality.

The continuous measurement of 6 April 1994 to 5 April 2000 confirmed this fact conclusively. In that period the total negative deviation of 'Sirius time' from the total mean sidereal time accumulated to 4.1 seconds. This means about negative 0.68 s per year (!). Again, according to 'precession' a negative time difference of 6 × 3.34 s or about 20 seconds should have occurred, but did NOT occur with respect to Sirius!




Therefore, the entire precessional model used by Stellarium is plain wrong.

Indisputable, direct, measurable proofs that for a time period of 20 years, Sirius has not undergone precessional motion, contrary to what the Stellarium software/calculations tell us.


These, then, are the undeniable facts.



Dr. Jad Buchwald (Caltech):

Sirius remains about the same distance from the equinoxes—and so from the solstices— throughout these many centuries, despite precession.


HOW THEN CAN SIRIUS ACCOUNT AHEAD OF TIME FOR NEWCOMB'S CONSTANT? FOR THE ACCELERATION OF THE RATE OF AXIAL PRECESSION?


« Last Edit: August 08, 2017, 11:38:54 AM by sandokhan »

*

MicroBeta

  • 2490
  • +1/-0
Re: Solar eclipse...
« Reply #94 on: August 08, 2017, 02:18:28 AM »
<snip>
Wow you post a lot of info.  Hell, in a series of posts you've practically reproduced nearly all of BRI's website.  I'm curious though.  How does all of this info relate to a solar eclipse.  Although, it's interesting that those in the path of totality will be able to see Sirius during the eclipse. 

Since you seem to know quite a bit about Sirius can you explain why we'll be able to see it as well as the rest of the stars we would normally see at night in February?  It's makes perfect sense in a heliocentric model but how does it fit into the solar eclipse model in FET?

Mike
Since it costs 2.72¢ to produce a penny, putting in your 2¢ if really worth 5.44¢.

*

rabinoz

  • 26528
  • +0/-0
  • Real Earth Believer
Re: Solar eclipse...
« Reply #95 on: August 08, 2017, 05:18:43 AM »
Please!

That video is pure, absolute horse shit!

So your admitting you have no way of arguing the facts? You just call it horse shit... Did you even watch the whole thing?
The topic just happens to be "Solar eclipse" and the video starts "The Lunar Eclipse", so why waste 30 minutes on it?
Especially when it next goes on with
"Many people out there think that the phases of the moon are caused by the curvature of the earth".
That would be flat earthers trying their usual "straw-man arguments", not Globe supporters.

When a 2:50 it states that "The earth has been proved to be without orbital or axial motion", what else would one say?
No, the earth has not been proved to be without orbital or axial motion, so why bother looking further?

So if you think that this video so wonderfully explains the solar eclipse,
you note down the salient points and explain them to us!

?

Alpha2Omega

  • 4107
  • +1/-1
Re: Solar eclipse...
« Reply #96 on: August 08, 2017, 08:54:45 PM »
The most precise proof that Sirius has NOT undergone precessional movement from 1988 to 2007:

<links to your own stuff and other sketchy sources>

Extended sidereal time-measurements from 6 April 1994 to 6 April 1996 revealed a total negative time deviation of 1.6 seconds from tropical-sidereal time. According to 'precession' this difference should be about 3.34 seconds per year. Hence a total negative deviation of about 6.68 seconds was to be expected, but did not occur in reality.

The continuous measurement of 6 April 1994 to 5 April 2000 confirmed this fact conclusively. In that period the total negative deviation of 'Sirius time' from the total mean sidereal time accumulated to 4.1 seconds. This means about negative 0.68 s per year (!). Again, according to 'precession' a negative time difference of 6 × 3.34 s or about 20 seconds should have occurred, but did NOT occur with respect to Sirius!

I take it that you haven't found any real star catalogs that agree with you. Star catalogs that provided an accurate location for Sirius at a specified epoch would be a simple and direct way to demonstrate your point if it were true. Since you don't have this, it's necessary for you to substitute the old magician's trick of hand waving to maintain the illusion.

Oh, well, I'm game to show your attempted hand waving...

Quote

As a matter of fact, the mean rotation period of the earth relative to Sirius is nearly identical to the time interval of the mean sidereal day of 86164.09054 seconds.

Even more surprising is the observation that the mean time interval of the sidereal year, as measured with respect to Sirius is nearly identical (by less than one second) to the time interval of the tropical year. According to the theory of 'precession', a yearly time difference of about 1223 s is supposed to occur between a sidereal year and the tropical year.

The meridian transit measurements of Sirius have shown that neither a time difference of 6 × 1223 s, nor a difference of 6 × 3.34 s has occurred over the 6-year observation period from April 1994 to April 2000.

These observations clearly indicate that the so-called 'precession of the earth' is NOT a scientific fact.

What it really means is that one questionable set of observations does not agree with data that has been independently confirmed and routinely used, reliably, by many, over and over, for decades.

Quote
Practical Observation and Measurement of Sidereal Time with respect to Sirius:

My meridian transition time measurement with respect to Sirius (using the UTC atomic-time radio signal from WWV Fort Collins/Colorado), which I conducted over a period of 5 consecutive years, resulted in the following mean sidereal rotation time for the Earth.


Obviously, as indicated by the adjective mean all variations in time caused by periodic or any other fluctuations of the Earth's axis, as well as the assumed precession of the axis, must be included in the 5-year observation period. Technically speaking this is still the easiest and best available method to measure and determine a mean sidereal day.

First meridian transition time of Sirius on 20.04.1994 at 20:16:48.5 hours
Last meridian transition time of Sirius on 19.04.1999 at 20:21:34.5 hours

The total time span between those two measurements is exactly 157 680 286 seconds.
(5 calendar years including one leap day is 5 x 365 days of 86400 s each, plus the time difference of 286 s on the last day)

Plus 4 leap seconds added between April 1994 and April 1999, making the interval 157 680 290 seconds.

Quote
In this same time interval exactly 5 x 366 sidereal days (meridian transitions) were completed. As a result, the mean sidereal day with respect to Sirius is:

157 680 286 s ÷ 1830 = 86164.09071 seconds.

Actually, 157 680 290 s ÷ 1830 = 86,164.09290 seconds

Quote

Note: The mean sidereal day is officially published with 86164.091 s mean solar time, while the mathematically calculated mean sidereal day is exactly 86164.0905382 seconds. Therefore, my precise measurement of 86164.09071 s with respect to Sirius is within the acceptable range of accuracy.

Ignoring a significant omission.

Quote
Due to the apparent precession, the measurable mean sidereal day should be about 86164.09966 seconds [on the ecliptic], since logically the actual mean rotation time of the Earth by 86164.0905382 seconds can only be measured with a delay in time relative to the inertial position of the fixed stars. In other words, if precession were indeed to occur, absolutely no fixed star can ever have a mean meridian transition time of 86164.0905382 seconds.

Stars near the ecliptic pole would.

This leaves a bit of a problem, since, to make Mr. Homann's observations correct would require that Sirius must drift by several seconds in Right Ascension per year, and that much drift would be quickly noticed and loudly commented upon. That drift is not happening.

Karl-Heinz Homann (April 29, 1933 – April 23, 2008):

Karl-Heinz Homann was born in Oer-Erkenschwick near Recklinghausen, Germany. He had a background as a mechanic and machinist, and had a Master's Degree as an Electronic Technician. Most of his life he was self-employed, both in Germany and in Canada. He and his family emigrated to Canada in 1980. He spent his remaining years on a small farm near Peers, Alberta.

Herr Homann was an amateur astronomer. Amateurs can and do make significant contributions to the science of astronomy, especially in the fields of variable-star monitoring and occultation timing, but I bring this up in light of your earlier comment:

The wikipedia page you are quoting was written by amateurs (such as yourself), who are not experts in the field.

So are amateurs competent or not? You're selectively trying to have it both ways.

The omission of leap seconds was an obvious mistake. Further:

Editor’s Note: Though Mr. Homann uses the term “Meridian” in his discussion below, in fact (and as he explains) Sirius didn’t pass directly overhead but rather the telescope was pointed to the Southwest.
 
...

Finally, the pdf data files show the term “Calculated Avg =>” to show where we added interpolated points to provide continuity in the lines of the graphs. This seems to happen when Mr. Homann was re-adjusting the transit and its tripod. These are mostly evident in his early years and the later data, especially after 1994, has almost no omissions, adjustments or re-calibrations.

...

METHOD OF MEASUREMENT:
A basic transit instrument of 25x magnification is solidly mounted. The optic is permanently aligned in a southwesterly direction. This type of alignment offers an optimal period of observation with respect to Sirius throughout the year. The precise time reference signal used to measure the transit intervals of Sirius is the UTC atomic-time radio signal from WWV Fort Collins/Colorado.

This is a good example why papers should be peer reviewed before publication if expected to be taken seriously. A good peer review would have caught the obvious omission of leap seconds and would likely have asked about more subtle details like the "Solidly mounted" but occasionally "re-adjusted" transit, and questioned the validity of "meridian" measurements that aren't on the meridian, especially with a star as low in the sky as Sirius is from Peers, Alberta . There's a reason real meridian instruments measure actual meridian crossings instead of a proxy. Further, not only are the precession rates based on objects located on the ecliptic, instead of 40° from it, but the times are apparently reported in local time, and it's not clear from what I've read whether it's mountain standard time or daylight time. At around 20h mountain time (standard or daylight) at that time of year, Sirius is in the southwest from Peers, AB, but 20h UT would not, and it would have been broad daylight there. Spelunking deeper into the data set might clarify that point, but, in a  competently-written paper that sort of detail would be specified.

Precession has the biggest effect along the ecliptic and zero effect at the ecliptic poles. The ecliptic poles are those points in the sky perpendicular to the ecliptic. In 25 years, an object on the ecliptic will precess by 0.349 degrees in ecliptic longitude (completing the circle in 25,788 years if the rate remained constant, which sounds about right) and not precess at all at the poles.

Sirius is 50.4 from the southern ecliptic pole (6h 00m 00s, -66° 33'), so Sirius' angular precession would be expected to be

0.349° * sin(50) = 0.349° * 0.771 = 0.268° over 25 years, or
0.268° / 25 years = 0.0108° / year.

In fact, Stellarium reports that in the 25 years from 2000 Jan 1 to 2025 Jan 1, Sirius moved by 0.2680°.

Stellarium also calculates a position for Sirius that is consistent with the position of Sirius for 1950 published in the Becvar atlas and catalog.

What are we left with? Either the catalogs are wrong, or Mr. Homann's measurements are wrong.

The catalogs and precession model are used by a large number of people, amateurs and professionals, on essentially a daily basis without mislocating Sirius. Mr. Homann's measurements say they should be off by about 0.2° since 2000. That much error would be noticed pretty quickly. My vote: the catalogs and precession model are right, and Mr. Homann's data is simply not reliable, for various reasons, at this level of precision.

Quote
Sirius remains about the same distance from the equinoxes—and so from the solstices— throughout these many centuries, despite precession.

Can you provide any reliable evidence of this? I doubt you can.

Quote
HOW THEN CAN SIRIUS ACCOUNT AHEAD OF TIME FOR NEWCOMB'S CONSTANT? FOR THE ACCELERATION OF THE RATE OF AXIAL PRECESSION?

It neither can nor does.

[Edit] correct comment on Mountain standard or daylight time, typo.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2017, 09:40:10 PM by Alpha2Omega »
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

*

sandokhan

  • Flat Earth Sultan
  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 7273
  • +7/-41
Re: Solar eclipse...
« Reply #97 on: August 08, 2017, 09:43:30 PM »
You are in no position to complain about any experiments at all, especially this one.

Remember this?

Almost 400 years later, William H. Donohue undertook the task of translating
Kepler’s 1609 Astronomia Nova into the English New Astronomy (Donohue 1992)
when in the course of his work he redid many of Kepler’s calculations, he was
startled to find some fundamental inconsistencies with Kepler’s reporting of these
same calculations (Donohue 1988).

After detailed computational arguments Donahue concluded the results
reported by Kepler . . . were not at all based on Brahe’s observational data; rather
they were fabricated on the basis of Kepler’s determination that Mars’s orbit was
elliptical.


https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1776670#msg1776670

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1776680#msg1776680

''He fudged things,'' Dr. Donahue said, adding that Kepler was never challenged by a contemporary. A pivotal presentation of data to support the elliptical theory was ''a fraud, a complete fabrication,'' Dr. Donahue wrote in his paper. ''It has nothing in common with the computations from which it was supposedly generated.''


Kepler FAKED, FUDGED, FALSIFIED each and every piece of data, each graph, each page in the Nova Astronomia.

And yet, you and the star catalogues you quote so often, have accepted this fakery with no problem at all.

Not a mere few seconds (which, by the way, do not influence the experiment at all, given the huge discrepancy between what should have been recorded and the data obtained in real time), but a massive falsification of each and every figure.

A total of 27 leap seconds have been added from 1972 to 2016.

0.64 seconds per year.

1994 - 2000 a period of six years.

4/6 = 0.66 seconds per year.

At no time at all, was the data even close to reaching the required 3.34 s figure, not even if we add a whole second each and every year.


How do you feel, complaining about a very well done experiment, with a sneer on your face, while at the same time, you accept wholeheartedly the humongous fakery done by Kepler?

One second per year is too much for you, even though is does not affect the experiment at all: yet you accept the total fakery of the data provided by Kepler with no problem at all.

How can you live with yourself, waving your hands and feet, complaining about a single second (which does not help your cause in any way) per year, and yet accepting with a straight face the total falsification of each and every figure done by Kepler?


The star catalogues you mention have a fatal error: they rely on A STATIC SOLAR SYSTEM, and not on a DYNAMIC SOLAR SYSTEM.

As such they assume that the solar system is static is not moving at all, which it is.


The data gathered by U. Homann and K.H. Homann is real, and the experiment has been performed correctly.


https://web.archive.org/web/20100305042618/http://www.siriusresearchgroup.com/diagrams/SiriusTransitObservations.shtml

http://www.binaryresearchinstitute.org/srg/SiriusResearch.shtml




Extended sidereal time-measurements from 6 April 1994 to 6 April 1996 revealed a total negative time deviation of 1.6 seconds from tropical-sidereal time. According to 'precession' this difference should be about 3.34 seconds per year. Hence a total negative deviation of about 6.68 seconds was to be expected, but did not occur in reality.

The continuous measurement of 6 April 1994 to 5 April 2000 confirmed this fact conclusively. In that period the total negative deviation of 'Sirius time' from the total mean sidereal time accumulated to 4.1 seconds. This means about negative 0.68 s per year (!). Again, according to 'precession' a negative time difference of 6 × 3.34 s or about 20 seconds should have occurred, but did NOT occur with respect to Sirius!


If Sirius really did undergo a precessional motion, then there would have been no discrepancy at all: as such, the 20 second difference which did not occur, proves that the star catalogues are in total error.


Again, the negative deviation recorded was a mere 4.1 seconds: the correct time interval must have been 20 seconds.


The data is very precise and has been gathered over a period of 20 years with extreme precision: there are 20 seconds missing in the interval 1994-2000 which prove that Sirius is not undergoing any precession at all.


And the experiment done by U. Homann is corroborated, supported, by two famous experiments which are undeniable:

These findings are in total agreement with the following facts: the Allais effect (as it applies to precessional motion) shows that the orbit of the pendulum defies Newtonian mechanics; the Sagnac effect proves that the Earth does not orbit the Sun, and thus is not undergoing any kind of an axial precessional movement.

The Allais Effect VI (axial precession is not related to Newtonian mechanics)

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1642033#msg1642033

http://www.allais.info/docs/pugarticle.pdf

The detailed behavior of both pendulums over the eclipse period shown in Fig. 8 was remarkable. During the period before the eclipse no particular disturbance was detected, and the 10-minute precession amounts of both pendulums generally exhibited the same behavior.After the local eclipse maximum the precession amount of the automatic pendulum started to increase steadily, while that of the manual pendulum started to decrease steadily. This trend continued unabated until about forty minutes after fourth contact, when the sense of change of the precession of the manual pendulum changed to be the same as that of the automatic pendulum.

After this both pendulum precession amounts marched together in almost perfect lockstep, decreasing until about 12:15, then executing an abrupt spike upwards and back downwards which ended at about 13:15, and then increasing until about 14:20, at which point the manual pendulum precession again reversed its trend. It is clear from the calmness of the environmental data that these phenomena were not linked to any variation of meteorological conditions.


Analysis. This long Foucault-type pendulum behaved in a very stable manner. However well after the end of the locally visible eclipse, at around 11:33 (to the recording resolution, i.e. between the readings at 11:29 and 11:36), some influence clearly acted for a short period to increase the precession rate. This influence was no longer apparent during the next inter-reading interval (from 11:36 to 11:43), and then reversed itself to some extent during the next interval (from 11:43 to 11:50).


The Allais Effect VII (stationary earth/Foucault's pendulum anomalies)

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1642668#msg1642668

The physical reality is this. The Allais effect noticed can be due to either a momentary fluctuation in the earths rotation, or in the aethers rotation over that area of space where the alignment occurs.  The former for obvious reasons (the energy factor) is illogical.

"Nobel prize winner Maurice Allais had to go and throw another monkey wrench in the spokes of the heliocentric bicycle. Allais performed a marathon 30 day Foucault Pendulum experiment in 1954. During the experiment an eclipse occurred. Surprisingly, the pendulum changed angles by a significant 13.5 degrees! This suggests something in space was affecting the pendulum, not the motion of the earth."


https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1917978#msg1917978 (missing orbital Sagnac effect)


Therefore, the entire concept of axial precession is wrong.

The acceleration of the rate of axial precession also cannot be explained by modern astronomy.


Go ahead and tell the folks over at the Stellarium catalogue that the GPS satellites DO NOT REGISTER THE ORBITAL SAGNAC EFFECT OR THE SOLAR GRAVITATIONAL POTENTIAL EFFECT.

The missing orbital Sagnac effect and the missing solar orbital gravitational potential effect means that the hypotheses of the Ruderfer experiment are totally fulfilled: it proves the existence of ether.

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1846721#msg1846721 (M. Ruderfer experiment, 1960)

Do the amateur astronomers over at the Stellarium understand these basic things? They obviously do not.


If you want anybody to believe you that the data presented by Uwe Homann is false, YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE TO DISPROVE THE MISSING ORBITAL SAGNAC EFFECT.

And this you most certainly are not in any position to do.


The data gathered by U. Homann is true:



Not even once, over a period of 20 years, had Sirius reached the required precession rate of 3.34 s.


Please explain the MISSING orbital Sagnac effect and the MISSING solar orbital gravitational potential effect.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2017, 10:22:42 PM by sandokhan »

*

rabinoz

  • 26528
  • +0/-0
  • Real Earth Believer
Re: Solar eclipse...
« Reply #98 on: August 08, 2017, 10:59:59 PM »
<< Off topic irrelevant copy-pasta deleted >>
The topic is "Solar eclipse..." so how can a 19 km high sun cause a 495 km wide umbra or a 114 km wide one as on Aug 21?

Guess you don't have a clue?

?

Alpha2Omega

  • 4107
  • +1/-1
Re: Solar eclipse...
« Reply #99 on: August 09, 2017, 09:16:12 AM »
You are in no position to complain about any experiments at all, especially this one.

Remember this?

<irrelevant>

And yet, you and the star catalogues you quote so often, have accepted this fakery with no problem at all.

The catalogs are accepted because they provide useful information; the information is useful because it is accurate and works to solve real problems. Do you have any reliable evidence that says otherwise?

Quote
Not a mere few seconds (which, by the way, do not influence the experiment at all, given the huge discrepancy between what should have been recorded and the data obtained in real time), but a massive falsification of each and every figure.

Those four seconds account for a good portion of the discrepancy. What is telling is that they were they omitted in the first place.

Quote
<gratuitous calculation of average leap seconds per year>

How do you feel, complaining about a very well done experiment, with a sneer on your face

A proper peer review would be necessary to determine whether Mr. Homann's experiment was well done or not. Even a cursory critical review reveals problems, so it doesn't look promising.

There are a couple of obvious errors (omission of the leap seconds, expecting Sirius to have the same amount of precession as on the ecliptic instead of 40° away from it), and on first pass, a questionable measurement procedure was employed (not timing actual meridian crossings, but somewhere to the southwest, instead), so its quality is legitimately suspect.

And, I have tried to be respectful to Mr. Homann while at the same time giving his data a critical look, because the result simply does not match better-known information that is proven in wide use to be valid.

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."
 - Sagan

"The weight of evidence for an extraordinary claim must be proportioned to its strangeness."
 - Laplace

You need better evidence than this one flawed experiment. Do you have anything else?

Quote
while at the same time, you accept wholeheartedly the humongous fakery done by Kepler?

You are all too happy to uncritically accept Mr. Homann's results and exaggerate a critique of Kepler's work because these suit your agenda.

Kepler's results are famous and widely used because they actually work. They work because they match reality. Mr. Homann's results do not match reality, so they remain little known and relegated to a website that traffics in woo, and serve no useful purpose.

Quote
How can you live with yourself, waving your hands and feet, complaining about a single second (which does not help your cause in any way) per year, and yet accepting with a straight face the total falsification of each and every figure done by Kepler?

My goodness! What a lot of bluster and mock outrage. Feel better after that outburst?

It was four seconds, by the way. Nice try at fudging, though!

Quote
The star catalogues you mention have a fatal error: they rely on A STATIC SOLAR SYSTEM, and not on a DYNAMIC SOLAR SYSTEM.

As such they assume that the solar system is static is not moving at all, which it is.

No. Modern star catalogs provide measured values for proper motion when it's large enough to reliably detect. This proper motion is due to relative motion between other stars and the solar system; relative motion is all that matters.

Except in rare cases, proper motion is insignificant for all but the most exacting work. Sirius has one of the largest proper motions since it's one of the nearest stars, but that only amounts to about 1.3 arc seconds per year, and that's mostly in declination, not RA, which is what matters in this issue.

Quote

The data gathered by U. Homann and K.H. Homann is real, and the experiment has been performed correctly.

You really, really want to believe that, but it contains known errors, and probably other errors as well. At any rate, it's conclusions are simply incompatible with other, well-tested, results. There is no way around that.

Quote
<Is it really necessary to keep repeating this crap?>

<Yet another attempt to change the subject>

Go ahead and tell the folks over at the Stellarium catalogue that the GPS satellites DO NOT REGISTER THE ORBITAL SAGNAC EFFECT OR THE SOLAR GRAVITATIONAL POTENTIAL EFFECT.

You tell them. Please let us know what they say.

Quote
<More diversion and repetition>

Not even once, over a period of 20 years, had Sirius reached the required precession rate of 3.34 s.
<diversion>

Required by whom? The standard precession model predicts only 2.6 sec / year precession in RA for Sirius, since it's not on the ecliptic.

It looks like you're still hanging your hat on a single flawed experiment and cannot find any other, more reliable, evidence to back up your claim. If you do find any, please do present it for consideration. And do try not to wander even further off topic, please. [I can hope, can't I? ;)]
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

*

sandokhan

  • Flat Earth Sultan
  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 7273
  • +7/-41
Re: Solar eclipse...
« Reply #100 on: August 09, 2017, 10:34:24 AM »
Kepler's results are famous and widely used because they actually work.

But they do not, that is why they were totally faked in the first place.

The acceleration of the rate of axial precession DEFIES Newtonian mechanics.

For you to complain of a single second, while at the same time you close your eyes and accept the totally faked treatise Nova Astronomia says a lot about you.


Let us examine the entire interval of 20 years using your figure of 2.6 seconds.



No leap seconds for 1988

For 1989 we add a single leap second: 0.5 (maximum value) + 1 = 1.5



One leap second for 1990: 0.6 (maximum value ) + 1 = 1.6



No leap seconds for 1991



One leap second for 1992: 0.5 (maximum value) + 1 = 1.5



One leap second for 1993: 0.8 (maximum value) + 1 = 1.8



One leap second for 1994: 1 (maximum value) + 1 = 2



Leap seconds for the years 1995, 1997, 1998

0.5 (maximum value) + 1 = 1.5



Leap seconds for the year 2005

0.5 (maximum value) + 1 = 1.5


Therefore the claims made by Uwe Homann are true: no precession for Sirius over a period of 20 years.


and cannot find any other, more reliable, evidence to back up your claim. If you do find any, please do present it for consideration.

Really?

Let me demolish your false beliefs right now.

Here is the perfect test for our situation: Homann's claims and experimental data that Sirius does not undergo precessional motion vs. the claims made by the star catalogues you are so fond of.

Obviously, if the Earth does not orbit the Sun, then you are proven to be wrong.


The ORBITAL Sagnac effect is missing and is greater in magnitude than the ROTATIONAL Sagnac effect.

That is, the GPS satellites operate AS IF the Earth is not orbiting the Sun.

Moreover, the ORBITAL solar gravitational potential effect upon these satellites is also missing, is not being registered at all.



http://qem.ee.nthu.edu.tw/f1b.pdf

This is an IOP article.

The author recognizes the earth's orbital Sagnac is missing whereas the earth's rotational Sagnac is not.

He uses GPS and a link between Japan and the US to prove this.

In GPS the actual magnitude of the Sagnac correction
due to earth’s rotation depends on the positions of
satellites and receiver and a typical value is 30 m, as the
propagation time is about 0.1s and the linear speed due
to earth’s rotation is about 464 m/s at the equator. The
GPS provides an accuracy of about 10 m or better in positioning.
Thus the precision of GPS will be degraded significantly,
if the Sagnac correction due to earth’s rotation
is not taken into account. On the other hand, the orbital
motion of the earth around the sun has a linear speed of
about 30 km/s which is about 100 times that of earth’s
rotation. Thus the present high-precision GPS would be
entirely impossible if the omitted correction due to orbital
motion is really necessary.


In an intercontinental microwave link between Japan and
the USA via a geostationary satellite as relay, the influence
of earth’s rotation is also demonstrated in a high-precision
time comparison between the atomic clocks at two remote
ground stations.
In this transpacific-link experiment, a synchronization
error of as large as about 0.3 µs was observed unexpectedly.


Meanwhile, as in GPS, no effects of earth’s orbital motion
are reported in these links, although they would be
easier to observe if they are in existence. Thereby, it is evident
that the wave propagation in GPS or the intercontinental
microwave link depends on the earth’s rotation, but
is entirely independent of earth’s orbital motion around
the sun or whatever. As a consequence, the propagation
mechanism in GPS or intercontinental link can be viewed
as classical in conjunction with an ECI frame, rather than
the ECEF or any other frame, being selected as the unique
propagation frame. In other words, the wave in GPS or the
intercontinental microwave link can be viewed as propagating
via a classical medium stationary in a geocentric
inertial frame.


The author actually present a local-ether model (MLET, Modified Lorentz Ether Theory) in order to account for the MISSING ORBITAL SAGNAC EFFECT.

Published by the BULLETIN OF THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY, one of the most prestigious journals in the world today.

C.C. Su, "A Local-ether model of propagation of electromagnetic wave," in Bull. Am. Phys. Soc., vol. 45, no. 1, p. 637, Mar. 2000 (Minneapolis, Minnesota).

http://www.ee.nthu.edu.tw/ccsu/










Both the rotational and the orbital motions of the earth together with the orbital
motion of the target planet contribute to the Sagnac
effect. But the orbital motion of the sun has no effects
on the interplanetary propagation.
On the other hand, as
the unique propagation frame in GPS and intercontinental
links is a geocentric inertial frame, the rotational motion
of the earth contributes to the Sagnac effect. But the orbital
motion of the earth around the sun and that of the
sun have no effects on the earthbound propagation.
By
comparing GPS with interplanetary radar, it is seen that
there is a common Sagnac effect due to earth’s rotation
and a common null effect of the orbital motion of the sun
on wave propagation. However, there is a discrepancy in
the Sagnac effect due to earth’s orbital motion.
Moreover,
by comparing GPS with the widely accepted interpretation
of the Michelson–Morley experiment, it is seen that
there is a common null effect of the orbital motions on
wave propagation, whereas there is a discrepancy in the
Sagnac effect due to earth’s rotation.


Based on this characteristic of uniqueness and switchability of the propagation frame,
we propose in the following section the local-ether model
of wave propagation to solve the discrepancies in the in-
fluences of earth’s rotational and orbital motions on the
Sagnac effect
and to account for a wide variety of propagation
phenomena.


Anyway, the interplanetary Sagnac effect is due to
earth’s orbital motion around the sun as well as earth’s
rotation.
Further, for the interstellar propagation where
the source is located beyond the solar system, the orbital
motion of the sun contributes to the interstellar Sagnac
effect as well.

Evidently, as expected, the proposed local-ether model
accounts for the Sagnac effect due to earth’s rotation and
the null effect of earth’s orbital motion in the earthbound
propagations in GPS and intercontinental microwave link
experiments. Meanwhile, in the interplanetary radar, it accounts
for the Sagnac effect due both to earth’s rotation
and to earth’s orbital motion around the sun.


Based on the local-ether model, the propagation is entirely
independent of the earth’s orbital motion around
the sun or whatever and the velocity v for such an earthbound
experiment is referred to an ECI frame and hence
is due to earth’s rotation alone. In the original proposal,
the velocity v was supposed to incorporate earth’s orbital
motion around the sun. Thus, at least, v2/c2
=~ 10-8. Then the amplitude of the phase-difference variation
could be as large as π/3, when the wavelength is
0.6 µm and the path length is 10 m. However, as the velocity
v is the linear velocity due to earth’s rotation alone,
the round-trip Sagnac effect is as small as v2/c2∼ 10-12 which is merely 10-4 times that due to the orbital motion.



The Sagnac effect is a FIRST ORDER effect in v/c.

Even in the round-trip nature of the Sagnac effect, as it was applied in the Michelson-Morley experiment, thus becoming a second order effect within that context, we can see that the ORBITAL SAGNAC IS 10,000 TIMES GREATER than the rotational Sagnac effect.

More information on Dr. C.C. Su's paper on the orbital Sagnac effect.

His paper was also published by HARVARD UNIVERSITY:

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-bib_query?2001EPJC...21..701S

See the headline at the top:

NASA ADS Physics/Geophysics Abstract Service



So far, Dr. C.C. Su's papers, which include the correct orbital Sagnac calculations, based on a circular loop with the center of rotation located at the Sun, have been published by:

HARVARD UNIVERSITY

BULLETIN OF THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY

EUROPEAN PHYSICAL JOURNAL

EUROPHYSICS LETTERS JOURNAL

JOURNAL OF ELECTROMAGNETIC WAVES AND APPLICATIONS

Further information here:

http://www.ee.nthu.edu.tw/ccsu/



Journal of Electromagnetic Waves and Applications:

http://www.ee.nthu.edu.tw/ccsu/qem/f3c.pdf

For the interplanetary propagation, earth’s orbital
motion contributes to the Sagnac effect as well. This local-ether model
has been adopted to account for the Sagnac effect due to earth’s
motions in a wide variety of propagation phenomena, particularly the
global positioning system (GPS), the intercontinental microwave link,
and the interplanetary radar.


The peer reviewers at the Journal of Electromagnetic Waves and Applications agree that the orbital Sagnac is larger than the rotational Sagnac, that it is missing, and that a local-ether model has to be adopted in order to account for this fact.


The solar gravitational potential effect upon the GPS clocks is also missing:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1846706#msg1846706


This means that the hypotheses of the RUDERFER EXPERIMENT are totally fulfilled:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1846721#msg1846721

Ruderfer, Martin (1960) “First-Order Ether Drift
Experiment Using the Mössbauer Radiation,”
Physical Review Letters, Vol. 5, No. 3, Sept. 1, pp
191-192

Ruderfer, Martin (1961) “Errata—First-Order Ether
Drift Experiment Using the Mössbauer Radiation,”
Physical Review Letters, Vol. 7, No. 9, Nov. 1, p 361


in 1961, M. Ruderfer proved mathematically and experimentally, using the spinning Mossbauer effect, the FIRST NULL RESULT in ether drift theory.

A GPS satellite orbiting the Earth, while at the same time the entire system is orbiting the Sun, IS A LARGE SCALE SPINNING MOSSBAUER EXPERIMENT.


Given the very fact that these GPS satellites DO NOT record the orbital Sagnac effect, means that THE HYPOTHESES OF THE RUDERFER EXPERIMENT ARE FULFILLED.

Why is there no requirement for a Sagnac correction due to the earth’s orbital motion? Like the transit time in the spinning Mossbauer experiments, any such effect would be completely canceled by the orbital-velocity effect on the satellite clocks.

However, indirectly, the counteracting effects of the transit time and clock slowing induced biases indicate that an ether drift is present. This is because there is independent evidence that clocks are slowed as a result of their speed. Thus, ether drift must exist or else the clock slowing effect would be observed.

In fact, there is other evidence that the wave-front bending and absence of the
Sagnac effect in the earth-centered frame is due to the clock-biasing effects of velocity
and that an ether drift velocity actually exists in the earth-centered frame. First, the
gradient of the solar gravitational effects upon clocks on the surface of the earth is such
that the clocks will speed up and slow down in precisely the correct way to retain the
appropriate up-wind and down-wind clock biases. Thus, the clocks must be biased or
else the solar gravitational effects would become apparent.


A total refutation of your false claims, and a total debunking of the false beliefs held by the authors of the Stellarium software.


« Last Edit: August 09, 2017, 10:40:40 AM by sandokhan »

?

Alpha2Omega

  • 4107
  • +1/-1
Re: Solar eclipse...
« Reply #101 on: August 09, 2017, 11:11:09 AM »
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

*

sandokhan

  • Flat Earth Sultan
  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 7273
  • +7/-41
Re: Solar eclipse...
« Reply #102 on: August 09, 2017, 11:17:54 AM »
A change of venue won't help you, on the contrary...

*

JackBlack

  • 26157
  • +51/-79
Re: Solar eclipse...
« Reply #103 on: August 09, 2017, 02:07:26 PM »
A change of venue won't help you, on the contrary...
It isn't designed to help him, it is to remove your spam from this thread. You seem completely incapable of discussing the topic at hand and instead seem to need to bring up completely irrelevant crap and repeatedly jump topic, as if you are incapable of defending anything and just need to bury your opponent in mountains of crap.

Remember, this topic is about the solar eclipse, something you are yet to discuss.

Do you have an explanation for a solar eclipse on a flat Earth? One which is capable of explaining annular and total solar eclipses of various sizes?

*

sandokhan

  • Flat Earth Sultan
  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 7273
  • +7/-41
Re: Solar eclipse...
« Reply #104 on: August 09, 2017, 03:08:35 PM »
jackblack, shut the **** up!

Only an ******** like you could claim that the orbital Sagnac is 1/365 of the rotational Sagnac.


Based on the local-ether model, the propagation is entirely
independent of the earth’s orbital motion around
the sun or whatever and the velocity v for such an earthbound
experiment is referred to an ECI frame and hence
is due to earth’s rotation alone. In the original proposal,
the velocity v was supposed to incorporate earth’s orbital
motion around the sun. Thus, at least, v2/c2
=~ 10-8. Then the amplitude of the phase-difference variation
could be as large as π/3, when the wavelength is
0.6 µm and the path length is 10 m. However, as the velocity
v is the linear velocity due to earth’s rotation alone,
the round-trip Sagnac effect is as small as v2/c2∼ 10-12 which is merely 10-4 times that due to the orbital motion.


The Sagnac effect is a FIRST ORDER effect in v/c.

Even in the round-trip nature of the Sagnac effect, as it was applied in the Michelson-Morley experiment, thus becoming a second order effect within that context, we can see that the ORBITAL SAGNAC IS 10,000 TIMES GREATER than the rotational Sagnac effect.


Let's see now.

You claimed a figure of 1/365.

The above-referenced paper, published in the most prestigious journals in the world, proves a value of 10,000.

You error amounts to 3,650,000.

It couldn't have happened to anybody else, you stupid ****.

GTFOH!
« Last Edit: August 11, 2017, 04:43:57 AM by sandokhan »

*

JackBlack

  • 26157
  • +51/-79
Re: Solar eclipse...
« Reply #105 on: August 09, 2017, 03:22:48 PM »
jackblack, shut the fuck up!

Only an imbecile like you could claim that the orbital Sagnac is 1/365 of the rotational Sagnac.
No, only a sane, rational person would.
Regardless, this is not the place for that.
This is to discuss eclipses.
If you wish to discuss your ignorance of the Sagnac effect, feel free to go back to its thread and point out what was wrong with my math which showed quite explicitly that the orbital Sagnac effect is 1/365th of the rotational Sagnac effect.

If you aren't planning on discussing eclipses then FUCK OFF!

*

rabinoz

  • 26528
  • +0/-0
  • Real Earth Believer
Re: Solar eclipse...
« Reply #106 on: August 09, 2017, 06:46:30 PM »
jackblack, shut the fuck up!

Only an imbecile like you could claim that the orbital Sagnac is 1/365 of the rotational Sagnac.

Oh, aren't we getting a trifle riled up!  ;D

 ;D ;D Looks like all scientists are imbeciles and only sandokhan is sane, maybe it's the other way around?  ;D ;D

Funny that YOU refuse to analyse the off-centre Sagnac Loop yourself, but everyone else seem able to show this sort of thing!
Quote from: Eyal Schwartz, Published 30 November 2016 • © 2016 IOP Publishing Ltd , European Journal of Physics, Volume 38, Number 1
Sagnac effect in an off-center rotating ring frame of reference

Abstract
Interference resides deeply in our understanding of the wave properties of light. In this paper, the century famous Sagnac effect is demonstrated to be independent of the rotation axis position, using a rotating ring optical fiber in a straightforward laboratory experiment. A simple theoretical explanation for this result is given for any arbitrary closed loop interferometer. The level of this discussion should be suitable for undergraduate physics or engineering courses where electromagnetic theory and optics are discussed. The experiment described utilizes basic and important aspects in modern optics which every science student should acquire.
And
Quote from: A.G.Kelly
Sagnac showed experimentally that the centre of rotation can be away from the geometric centre of the apparatus, without affecting the above result.

From: TIME and the SPEED of LIGHT - a NEW INTERPRETATION, A.G.Kelly
Which really puts the kibosh on you interpretation of the "Orbital Sagnac Effect", so nice to know.
Bye bye any massive orbital Sagnac Effect.
And
 
Quote
This phase difference has been demonstrated in a rotating interferometer as well as in a geostationary one.
In the latter case, the Sagnac effect is due solely to earth’s rotation with ωl = ωE. The earth rotation rate ωE is about 2π/(86400 s) and the corresponding maximum phase difference is as large as 2 rad, when the wavelength is 0.6 µm and the loop area S = 0.2 km2. Thus, a loop interferometer can be utilized as a precise means to detect earth’s rotation rate.
Moreover, according to the local-ether model, earth’s orbital motion around the sun or others does not con-
tribute to the Sagnac effect in an earthbound propagation loop
. In as early as 1904 Michelson supposed that
the Sagnac effect due to the orbital motion of the earth around the sun might be detectable, although the angular
speed of the orbital motion is about 1/365 times that of the rotation .

Plenty more where they came from!

The Sagnac delay is independent of the shape of the loop and on its centre of rotation!
Only on the area projected on the plane of rotation and the angular velocity.

*

sandokhan

  • Flat Earth Sultan
  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 7273
  • +7/-41
Re: Solar eclipse...
« Reply #107 on: August 09, 2017, 09:44:43 PM »
And all analyses end up with results where only the area appears.

Exactly.

Earth's orbital radius = 150,000,000 km r² = 22500000000000000

∆t = 4πR²ω/(c²-v²)


Please show exactly where Mathpages, 2.7  The Sagnac Effect claims that!

The equation for the sagnac is:

4Aω/( c² - v²)

One must calculatate the area swept out by the path and that is A = πR², where R is measured from the Sun to the center of the Earth (radius of the orbital path loop).

If two pulses of light are sent in opposite directions around a stationary circular loop of radius R...


Mathpages says one must use the center of rotation which is the sun.

It is a loop and the earth is moving along the loop in its orbit around the sun.


Sagnac also established that the effect does not depend on the shape of the loop or the center of rotation.

Certainly there are cases where this theory applies, but the rotational Sagnac and the orbital Sagnac effects are NOT two of them.

Both the rotational and the orbital Sagnac effect use the definition provided in mathpages:

"circular loop of radius R"

One must use the center of rotation which is the sun.

It is a loop and the earth is moving along the loop in its orbit around the sun.


You haven't read the paper by E.J. Post.

Post (1967) shows that the two (Sagnac and STR) are of very different orders of magnitude. He says that the dilation factor to be applied under SR is “indistinguishable with presently available equipment” and “is still one order smaller than the Doppler correction, which occurs when observing fringe shifts” in the Sagnac tests. He also points out that the Doppler effect “is v/c times smaller than the effect one wants to observe." Here Post states that the effect forecast by SR, for the time dilation aboard a moving object, is far smaller than the effect to be observed in a Sagnac test.


The papers published by Dr. C.C. Su and by Dr. Daniel Gezari agree exactly with me.

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1917978#msg1917978

Published by the BULLETIN OF THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY, one of the most prestigious journals in the world today.

C.C. Su, "A Local-ether model of propagation of electromagnetic wave," in Bull. Am. Phys. Soc., vol. 45, no. 1, p. 637, Mar. 2000 (Minneapolis, Minnesota).

http://www.ee.nthu.edu.tw/ccsu/

His paper was also published by HARVARD UNIVERSITY:

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-bib_query?2001EPJC...21..701S

See the headline at the top:

NASA ADS Physics/Geophysics Abstract Service



So far, Dr. C.C. Su's papers, which include the correct orbital Sagnac calculations, based on a circular loop with the center of rotation located at the Sun, have been published by:

HARVARD UNIVERSITY

BULLETIN OF THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY

EUROPEAN PHYSICAL JOURNAL

EUROPHYSICS LETTERS JOURNAL

JOURNAL OF ELECTROMAGNETIC WAVES AND APPLICATIONS


Journal of Electromagnetic Waves and Applications:

http://www.ee.nthu.edu.tw/ccsu/qem/f3c.pdf

For the interplanetary propagation, earth’s orbital
motion contributes to the Sagnac effect as well. This local-ether model
has been adopted to account for the Sagnac effect due to earth’s
motions in a wide variety of propagation phenomena, particularly the
global positioning system (GPS), the intercontinental microwave link,
and the interplanetary radar.


The peer reviewers at the Journal of Electromagnetic Waves and Applications agree that the orbital Sagnac is larger than the rotational Sagnac, that it is missing, and that a local-ether model has to be adopted in order to account for this fact.


The MISSING SOLAR GRAVITATIONAL POTENTIAL deals another huge blow to heliocentricity.

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1846706#msg1846706

Many people believe that GR accounts for all the observed
effects caused by gravitational fields. However, in
reality GR is unable to explain an increasing number of
clear observational facts, several of them discovered recently
with the help of the GPS. For instance, GR
predicts the gravitational time dilation and the slowing of
the rate of clocks by the gravitational potential of Earth,
of the Sun, of the galaxy etc. Due to the gravitational
time dilation of the solar gravitational potential, clocks in
the GPS satellites having their orbital plane nearly parallel
to the Earth-Sun axis should undergo a 12 hour period
harmonic variation in their rate so that the difference
between the delay accumulated along the half of the orbit
closest to the Sun amounts up to about 24 ns in the time
display, which would be recovered along the half of the
orbit farthest from the Sun. Such an oscillation exceeds
the resolution of the measurements by more than two
orders of magnitude and, if present, would be very easily
observed. Nevertheless, contradicting the predictions of
GR, no sign of such oscillation is observed.

In fact observations show that the rate of the
atomic clocks on Earth and in the 24 GPS satellites is
ruled by only and exclusively the Earth’s gravitational
field and that effects of the solar gravitational potential
are completely absent.

On the other hand, the time dilation effect of the solar
gravitational field on the atomic clocks orbiting with
Earth round the Sun, which is predicted by GR but not
observed, is a highly precise observation. It exceeds by
orders of magnitude the experimental precision and
hence is infinitely more reliable. If the orbital motion of
Earth round the Sun suppresses the time dilation due to
the solar gravitational field and moreover does not show
the predicted relativistic time dilation due to this orbital
motion
, then it seems reasonable that a clock in a satellite
orbiting round the Earth in a direct equatorial orbit or in a
jet flying round the Earth too should give no evidence of
such a relativistic time dilation. The relativistic time dilation
alleged in both these round the world Sagnac experiments
is in clear and frontal contradiction with the
absence of such a relativistic time dilation effect in the
case of the orbiting Earth round the Sun.

Thus, the hypotheses of the Ruderfer experiment are totally fulfilled:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1846721#msg1846721

Why is there no requirement for a Sagnac correction due to the earth’s orbital motion? Like the transit time in the spinning Mossbauer experiments, any such effect would be completely canceled by the orbital-velocity effect on the satellite clocks.

*

JackBlack

  • 26157
  • +51/-79
Re: Solar eclipse...
« Reply #108 on: August 10, 2017, 12:56:08 AM »
And all analyses end up with results where only the area appears.

Exactly.
Again, go back to the Sagnac thread, you know, the one where you got your ass handed to you repeatedly?

As a reminder, yes, exactly, it is the area, specifically the area of the loop, not the area of the orbit.

*

sandokhan

  • Flat Earth Sultan
  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 7273
  • +7/-41
Re: Solar eclipse...
« Reply #109 on: August 10, 2017, 01:03:17 AM »
No such thing ever happened.

You were taken out of the ring on a stretcher, wearing your t-shirt (defeater of...)


As a reminder, yes, exactly, it is the area, specifically the area of the loop, not the area of the orbit.

Let's put your statement to the test.

Published by the BULLETIN OF THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY, one of the most prestigious journals in the world today.

C.C. Su, "A Local-ether model of propagation of electromagnetic wave," in Bull. Am. Phys. Soc., vol. 45, no. 1, p. 637, Mar. 2000 (Minneapolis, Minnesota).

http://www.ee.nthu.edu.tw/ccsu/

His paper was also published by HARVARD UNIVERSITY:

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-bib_query?2001EPJC...21..701S

See the headline at the top:

NASA ADS Physics/Geophysics Abstract Service



So far, Dr. C.C. Su's papers, which include the correct orbital Sagnac calculations, based on a circular loop with the center of rotation located at the Sun, have been published by:

HARVARD UNIVERSITY

BULLETIN OF THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY

EUROPEAN PHYSICAL JOURNAL

EUROPHYSICS LETTERS JOURNAL

JOURNAL OF ELECTROMAGNETIC WAVES AND APPLICATIONS


Journal of Electromagnetic Waves and Applications:

http://www.ee.nthu.edu.tw/ccsu/qem/f3c.pdf

For the interplanetary propagation, earth’s orbital
motion contributes to the Sagnac effect as well. This local-ether model
has been adopted to account for the Sagnac effect due to earth’s
motions in a wide variety of propagation phenomena, particularly the
global positioning system (GPS), the intercontinental microwave link,
and the interplanetary radar.


The peer reviewers at the Journal of Electromagnetic Waves and Applications agree that the orbital Sagnac is larger than the rotational Sagnac, that it is missing, and that a local-ether model has to be adopted in order to account for this fact.











Both the rotational and the orbital motions of the earth together with the orbital
motion of the target planet contribute to the Sagnac
effect. But the orbital motion of the sun has no effects
on the interplanetary propagation.
On the other hand, as
the unique propagation frame in GPS and intercontinental
links is a geocentric inertial frame, the rotational motion
of the earth contributes to the Sagnac effect. But the orbital
motion of the earth around the sun and that of the
sun have no effects on the earthbound propagation.
By
comparing GPS with interplanetary radar, it is seen that
there is a common Sagnac effect due to earth’s rotation
and a common null effect of the orbital motion of the sun
on wave propagation. However, there is a discrepancy in
the Sagnac effect due to earth’s orbital motion.
Moreover,
by comparing GPS with the widely accepted interpretation
of the Michelson–Morley experiment, it is seen that
there is a common null effect of the orbital motions on
wave propagation, whereas there is a discrepancy in the
Sagnac effect due to earth’s rotation.


Based on this characteristic of uniqueness and switchability of the propagation frame,
we propose in the following section the local-ether model
of wave propagation to solve the discrepancies in the in-
fluences of earth’s rotational and orbital motions on the
Sagnac effect
and to account for a wide variety of propagation
phenomena.


Anyway, the interplanetary Sagnac effect is due to
earth’s orbital motion around the sun as well as earth’s
rotation.
Further, for the interstellar propagation where
the source is located beyond the solar system, the orbital
motion of the sun contributes to the interstellar Sagnac
effect as well.

Evidently, as expected, the proposed local-ether model
accounts for the Sagnac effect due to earth’s rotation and
the null effect of earth’s orbital motion in the earthbound
propagations in GPS and intercontinental microwave link
experiments. Meanwhile, in the interplanetary radar, it accounts
for the Sagnac effect due both to earth’s rotation
and to earth’s orbital motion around the sun.


Based on the local-ether model, the propagation is entirely
independent of the earth’s orbital motion around
the sun or whatever and the velocity v for such an earthbound
experiment is referred to an ECI frame and hence
is due to earth’s rotation alone. In the original proposal,
the velocity v was supposed to incorporate earth’s orbital
motion around the sun. Thus, at least, v2/c2
=~ 10-8. Then the amplitude of the phase-difference variation
could be as large as π/3, when the wavelength is
0.6 µm and the path length is 10 m. However, as the velocity
v is the linear velocity due to earth’s rotation alone,
the round-trip Sagnac effect is as small as v2/c2∼ 10-12 which is merely 10-4 times that due to the orbital motion.



The Sagnac effect is a FIRST ORDER effect in v/c.

Even in the round-trip nature of the Sagnac effect, as it was applied in the Michelson-Morley experiment, thus becoming a second order effect within that context, we can see that the ORBITAL SAGNAC IS 10,000 TIMES GREATER than the rotational Sagnac effect.


Sorry, the orbital Sagnac effect is calculated using the area of the orbit.

Feel free to write to your local university or send your thoughts on the subject to the Journal of Electromagnetic Waves and Applications.

*

JackBlack

  • 26157
  • +51/-79
Re: Solar eclipse...
« Reply #110 on: August 10, 2017, 01:31:26 AM »
No such thing ever happened.
No, that was exactly what happened.
I showed you to be completely full of shit, derived the Sagnac effect for you, and showed it is proportional to the area of the loop, not the orbit.
You were completely unable to refute it and instead kept spouting the same refuted crap.

You were taken out of the ring on a stretcher, wearing your t-shirt (defeater of...)
Nope. I left the ring walking out after you ran away like a pathetic child.

Let's put your statement to the test.
Let's not. Like I said, if you wish to discuss it, GO BACK TO THAT THREAD!!!

Stop trying to bring up your refuted bullshit elsewhere just because you are too afraid to go back to a thread where you were so easily defeated.
Bringing it up here wont magically make it correct. It is still refuted BS.
Bringing it up here just shows you to be pathetic, a coward and to know that you are full of shit, lacking in any integrity or honesty.

GROW UP!!

*

sandokhan

  • Flat Earth Sultan
  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 7273
  • +7/-41
Re: Solar eclipse...
« Reply #111 on: August 10, 2017, 01:56:08 AM »
You are undergoing another episode of cognitive dissonance, which is a terrible way to live.

Your piece of shit analysis was shown to be totally erroneous.

Here are the undeniable facts.

Please read them carefully, and also take your medicine.

Published by the BULLETIN OF THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY, one of the most prestigious journals in the world today.

C.C. Su, "A Local-ether model of propagation of electromagnetic wave," in Bull. Am. Phys. Soc., vol. 45, no. 1, p. 637, Mar. 2000 (Minneapolis, Minnesota).

http://www.ee.nthu.edu.tw/ccsu/

His paper was also published by HARVARD UNIVERSITY:

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-bib_query?2001EPJC...21..701S

See the headline at the top:

NASA ADS Physics/Geophysics Abstract Service



So far, Dr. C.C. Su's papers, which include the correct orbital Sagnac calculations, based on a circular loop with the center of rotation located at the Sun, have been published by:

HARVARD UNIVERSITY

BULLETIN OF THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY

EUROPEAN PHYSICAL JOURNAL

EUROPHYSICS LETTERS JOURNAL

JOURNAL OF ELECTROMAGNETIC WAVES AND APPLICATIONS


Journal of Electromagnetic Waves and Applications:

http://www.ee.nthu.edu.tw/ccsu/qem/f3c.pdf

For the interplanetary propagation, earth’s orbital
motion contributes to the Sagnac effect as well. This local-ether model
has been adopted to account for the Sagnac effect due to earth’s
motions in a wide variety of propagation phenomena, particularly the
global positioning system (GPS), the intercontinental microwave link,
and the interplanetary radar.


The peer reviewers at the Journal of Electromagnetic Waves and Applications agree that the orbital Sagnac is larger than the rotational Sagnac, that it is missing, and that a local-ether model has to be adopted in order to account for this fact.











Both the rotational and the orbital motions of the earth together with the orbital
motion of the target planet contribute to the Sagnac
effect. But the orbital motion of the sun has no effects
on the interplanetary propagation.
On the other hand, as
the unique propagation frame in GPS and intercontinental
links is a geocentric inertial frame, the rotational motion
of the earth contributes to the Sagnac effect. But the orbital
motion of the earth around the sun and that of the
sun have no effects on the earthbound propagation.
By
comparing GPS with interplanetary radar, it is seen that
there is a common Sagnac effect due to earth’s rotation
and a common null effect of the orbital motion of the sun
on wave propagation. However, there is a discrepancy in
the Sagnac effect due to earth’s orbital motion.
Moreover,
by comparing GPS with the widely accepted interpretation
of the Michelson–Morley experiment, it is seen that
there is a common null effect of the orbital motions on
wave propagation, whereas there is a discrepancy in the
Sagnac effect due to earth’s rotation.


Based on this characteristic of uniqueness and switchability of the propagation frame,
we propose in the following section the local-ether model
of wave propagation to solve the discrepancies in the in-
fluences of earth’s rotational and orbital motions on the
Sagnac effect
and to account for a wide variety of propagation
phenomena.


Anyway, the interplanetary Sagnac effect is due to
earth’s orbital motion around the sun as well as earth’s
rotation.
Further, for the interstellar propagation where
the source is located beyond the solar system, the orbital
motion of the sun contributes to the interstellar Sagnac
effect as well.

Evidently, as expected, the proposed local-ether model
accounts for the Sagnac effect due to earth’s rotation and
the null effect of earth’s orbital motion in the earthbound
propagations in GPS and intercontinental microwave link
experiments. Meanwhile, in the interplanetary radar, it accounts
for the Sagnac effect due both to earth’s rotation
and to earth’s orbital motion around the sun.


Based on the local-ether model, the propagation is entirely
independent of the earth’s orbital motion around
the sun or whatever and the velocity v for such an earthbound
experiment is referred to an ECI frame and hence
is due to earth’s rotation alone. In the original proposal,
the velocity v was supposed to incorporate earth’s orbital
motion around the sun. Thus, at least, v2/c2
=~ 10-8. Then the amplitude of the phase-difference variation
could be as large as π/3, when the wavelength is
0.6 µm and the path length is 10 m. However, as the velocity
v is the linear velocity due to earth’s rotation alone,
the round-trip Sagnac effect is as small as v2/c2∼ 10-12 which is merely 10-4 times that due to the orbital motion.



The Sagnac effect is a FIRST ORDER effect in v/c.

Even in the round-trip nature of the Sagnac effect, as it was applied in the Michelson-Morley experiment, thus becoming a second order effect within that context, we can see that the ORBITAL SAGNAC IS 10,000 TIMES GREATER than the rotational Sagnac effect.


Your piece of shit analysis is just that, a piece of worthless thrash.

Please feel free to send your analysis to the same journals listed above, and see the kind of response you will receive, until then you stand totally defeated.

*

JackBlack

  • 26157
  • +51/-79
Re: Solar eclipse...
« Reply #112 on: August 10, 2017, 02:18:48 AM »
You are undergoing another episode of cognitive dissonance, which is a terrible way to live.
Once again describing yourself.

Your piece of shit analysis was shown to be totally erroneous.
No it wasn't. You were unable to show a single flaw in it. You had to run away and pretend it didn't exists.

Here are the undeniable facts.
No, here are the facts (which nut jobs like you still deny):
YOU WERE WRONG!!
The orbital Sagnac effect is much smaller than the rotational one.
You were unable to show anything wrong with my analysis.

Now like I said, if you want to discuss it, GO BACK TO THAT THREAD!!!
You can start by showing what you think is wrong with my analysis. Don't bother discussing the conclusion, discuss either the premises or the math. NOTHING ELSE!!!
If you are unable to show a problem with one of those (the premises or math), then that means the conclusion stands as correct.

*

sandokhan

  • Flat Earth Sultan
  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 7273
  • +7/-41
Re: Solar eclipse...
« Reply #113 on: August 10, 2017, 02:34:07 AM »
You are totally detached from reality, a medical condition which is even worse than cognitive dissonance.

Here is again the total demolition of your failed piece of shit analysis.

jack has committed a monumental error in his derivation.

Of course, nothing else could have been expected of him.

He practically threw out the most basic requirement of the Sagnac effect.


What is the center of rotation for the orbit of the earth?

Here is the equation.

∆t = 4πRv / ( c² - v²) = 4Aω / ( c² - v²)

Where A = πR² and v = ωR

So, it is easy to calculate the orbital sagnac is more than 60 times that of the rotational.

But, A is based on R and according to mathpages, "circular loop of radius R".

http://www.mathpages.com/rr/s2-07/2-07.htm

Mathpages says you must use the center of rotation which is the sun.


Are there situations where the location of the center of rotation can be overlooked? Sure, but the rotational Sagnac and the orbital Sagnac are not among them.

In fact, the rotational Sagnac is calculated exactly as described above: using a circular loop.

But the same requirement is to be fulfilled in the case of the orbital Sagnac.



http://www.mathpages.com/rr/s2-07/2-07.htm

It is a loop and the earth is moving along the loop in its orbit around the sun.

If light travels at one speed c, then as the earth supposedly moves in it's revolution loop at 30k/s, while light moves c through space, the unit at the equator at noon would move with the earth' rotation and the earth's revolution cutting the distance the signal must travel to meet the unit.


"Let's say the unit is at the equator and the satellite is low on the horizon in the east at noon.

That means the unit is traveling at the orbital speed of the earth at 67,000 MPH.

The satellite emits at one speed c in space. While the light travels through space toward the unit at c, the unit moves with the earth at 67,000 MPH. The unit cuts the distance that the light must travel.

This is not being seen by any experiements nor GPS."

Yet, this same logic applies and works with the earth's supposed rotation.


jack does not understand this very basic fact of science, and has proceeded to construct his very own version of the Universe.

Let us see what happens when one disregards the basic facts of science.


jack's own words:

And thus:
dto/dtr=k*wo/k*wr=wo/wo=1/365.

Just like I said.
I also backed up this formula with my own derivation.


jack claims that the orbital Sagnac is 1/365 of the rotational Sagnac, and that, read carefully: "I also backed up this formula with my own derivation."

Using his own very words, jack is telling us that his derivation leads directly to this figure: 1/365.


Here is another quote now:

This is the correct calculation:
Δto/Δt r=[4Aiωo/( c² - vo²)] / [4Aiωr/( c² - vr²)]

Note, the area here has nothing to do with the area of Earth's orbit or radius of it or the radius of Earth. It is the area of the interferometer, as my derivation.

No where in any derivation did the area of Earth's orbit come into it.

So to continue:
Δto/Δt r=[4Aiωo/( c² - vo²)] / [4Aiωr/( c² - vr²)]
Obviously, ( c² - vo²) and ( c² - vr²) are very close to the same number, so let's lave them off.
=4Aiωo/ 4Aiωr
Then to simplify:
o/ ωr

And would you look at that? It ends up being just like what we claim.
You have ωo/ ωr.
As Earth rotates roughly 365 times for each orbit, ωr=365*ωo.
Thus we get:
Δto/Δt ro/ ωr
o/ (365*ωo)
=1/365

Just like we claim.



A very clear claim based on jack's derivation.

These are his own very words.


He claims that the derivation, as shown above, leads to the figure 1/365.


And he says that he bases his entire derivation on this: Note, the area here has nothing to do with the area of Earth's orbit or radius of it or the radius of Earth.

This hypothesis, in turn, jack claims leads to this conclusion:

=1/365

Just like we claim.



jack simply threw out the basic requirement that the orbital Sagnac is a circular loop, and reached the conclusion that the orbital Sagnac is 1/365 of the rotational Sagnac.


Let us put jack's claims to a real test.


Published by the BULLETIN OF THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY, one of the most prestigious journals in the world today.

C.C. Su, "A Local-ether model of propagation of electromagnetic wave," in Bull. Am. Phys. Soc., vol. 45, no. 1, p. 637, Mar. 2000 (Minneapolis, Minnesota).

http://www.ee.nthu.edu.tw/ccsu/

More information on Dr. C.C. Su's paper on the orbital Sagnac effect.

His paper was also published by HARVARD UNIVERSITY:

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-bib_query?2001EPJC...21..701S

See the headline at the top:

NASA ADS Physics/Geophysics Abstract Service



So far, Dr. C.C. Su's papers, which include the correct orbital Sagnac calculations, based on a circular loop with the center of rotation located at the Sun, have been published by:

HARVARD UNIVERSITY

BULLETIN OF THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY

EUROPEAN PHYSICAL JOURNAL

EUROPHYSICS LETTERS JOURNAL

JOURNAL OF ELECTROMAGNETIC WAVES AND APPLICATIONS

Further information here:

http://www.ee.nthu.edu.tw/ccsu/



Anyway, the interplanetary Sagnac effect is due to
earth’s orbital motion around the sun as well as earth’s
rotation.

Based on the local-ether model, the propagation is entirely
independent of the earth’s orbital motion around
the sun or whatever and the velocity v for such an earthbound
experiment is referred to an ECI frame and hence
is due to earth’s rotation alone. In the original proposal,
the velocity v was supposed to incorporate earth’s orbital
motion around the sun. Thus, at least, v^2/c^2
=~ 10^-8. Then the amplitude of the phase-difference variation
could be as large as π/3, when the wavelength is
0.6 µm and the path length is 10 m. However, as the velocity
v is the linear velocity due to earth’s rotation alone,
the round-trip Sagnac effect is as small as v^2/c^2∼ 10^-12 which is merely 10^-4 times that due to the orbital motion.


The Sagnac effect is a FIRST ORDER effect in v/c.

Even in the round-trip nature of the Sagnac effect, as it was applied in the Michelson-Morley experiment, thus becoming a second order effect within that context, we can see that the ORBITAL SAGNAC IS 10,000 TIMES GREATER than the rotational Sagnac effect.


The author PROVED that the orbital Sagnac is 10,000 times greater than the rotational Sagnac, and the peer reviewers agree totally.


It was published in one of the most respected journals in the world.


Both claims cannot be true at the same time, right?


The derivation's conclusion is that the orbital Sagnac is 1/365 of the rotational Sagnac.

The mainstream papers published by these respected journals prove that the orbital Sagnac is 10,000 greater than the rotational Sagnac.



That is what is totally wrong with your derivation.


You are off by a factor of 3,650,000!


Why are you off by such a huge factor?

Because of the wrong application of the Sagnac formula.


∆t = 4πRv / ( c² - v²) = 4Aω / ( c² - v²)

Where A = πR² and v = ωR

But, A is based on R and according to mathpages, "circular loop of radius R".

http://www.mathpages.com/rr/s2-07/2-07.htm

Mathpages says you must use the center of rotation which is the sun.



Our friend jack brushed aside this requirement to impose his will on everybody else:

Note, the area here has nothing to do with the area of Earth's orbit or radius of it or the radius of Earth. (jack's own very words)

In this particular case, the orbital path of the Earth, YOU MUST USE THE CORRECT RADIUS IN ORDER TO ACHIEVE A CORRECT RESULT.


jack's dismissal of basic scientific facts led to this monumentally erroneous conclusions, using his own words:

=1/365

Just like we claim.



In the original proposal,
the velocity v was supposed to incorporate earth’s orbital
motion around the sun. Thus, at least, v^2/c^2
=~ 10^-8. Then the amplitude of the phase-difference variation
could be as large as π/3, when the wavelength is
0.6 µm and the path length is 10 m. However, as the velocity
v is the linear velocity due to earth’s rotation alone,
the round-trip Sagnac effect is as small as v^2/c^2∼ 10^-12 which is merely 10^-4 times that due to the orbital motion.



PUBLISHED BY THE BULLETIN OF THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY, one of the most respected journals in the world.


Dr. C.C. Su proves that the correct figure is at least 10,000.


jack's catastrophic interpretation of the Sagnac effect leads to a figure of 1/365.


Let us see by how much jack went wrong.


10,000/(1/365) = 3,650,000

A huge margin of error, just what we would expect of someone like jack: he practically disregarded the most basic requirement of the Sagnac effect applied to the orbital case.


There is nothing else to discuss here.



*

JackBlack

  • 26157
  • +51/-79
Re: Solar eclipse...
« Reply #114 on: August 10, 2017, 03:16:38 AM »
Sandy, get this through your thick skull:
I AM NOT GOING TO DISCUSS THE SAGNAC EFFECT HERE!!!
If you want to discuss it, go back to that thread. Stop trying to derail this one.

Also, the way you are going about it is completely wrong.
You need to show a problem with the analysis. You can't just jump to the conclusion and then try saying that is wrong.
Especially not when you quote something that agrees with me, that it is the area of the loop, not the orbit.

Like I said, GROW UP!!!

Edit: PS - This is what you need to refute:
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=70614.msg1915658#msg1915658
« Last Edit: August 10, 2017, 03:19:51 AM by JackBlack »

*

rabinoz

  • 26528
  • +0/-0
  • Real Earth Believer
Re: Solar eclipse...
« Reply #115 on: August 10, 2017, 03:33:48 AM »
And all analyses end up with results where only the area appears.
You missed a bit And all analyses end up with results where only the area of the Sagnac loop appears.

But as you have been repeatedly told, the topic is "Solar eclipse...". Can't you read yet?
« Last Edit: August 10, 2017, 03:37:47 AM by rabinoz »

?

Badxtoss

  • 3268
  • +0/-0
Re: Solar eclipse...
« Reply #116 on: August 10, 2017, 02:17:44 PM »
And all analyses end up with results where only the area appears.

Exactly.

Earth's orbital radius = 150,000,000 km r² = 22500000000000000

∆t = 4πR²ω/(c²-v²)


Please show exactly where Mathpages, 2.7  The Sagnac Effect claims that!

The equation for the sagnac is:

4Aω/( c² - v²)

One must calculatate the area swept out by the path and that is A = πR², where R is measured from the Sun to the center of the Earth (radius of the orbital path loop).

If two pulses of light are sent in opposite directions around a stationary circular loop of radius R...


Mathpages says one must use the center of rotation which is the sun.

It is a loop and the earth is moving along the loop in its orbit around the sun.


Sagnac also established that the effect does not depend on the shape of the loop or the center of rotation.

Certainly there are cases where this theory applies, but the rotational Sagnac and the orbital Sagnac effects are NOT two of them.

Both the rotational and the orbital Sagnac effect use the definition provided in mathpages:

"circular loop of radius R"

One must use the center of rotation which is the sun.

It is a loop and the earth is moving along the loop in its orbit around the sun.


You haven't read the paper by E.J. Post.

Post (1967) shows that the two (Sagnac and STR) are of very different orders of magnitude. He says that the dilation factor to be applied under SR is “indistinguishable with presently available equipment” and “is still one order smaller than the Doppler correction, which occurs when observing fringe shifts” in the Sagnac tests. He also points out that the Doppler effect “is v/c times smaller than the effect one wants to observe." Here Post states that the effect forecast by SR, for the time dilation aboard a moving object, is far smaller than the effect to be observed in a Sagnac test.


The papers published by Dr. C.C. Su and by Dr. Daniel Gezari agree exactly with me.

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1917978#msg1917978

Published by the BULLETIN OF THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY, one of the most prestigious journals in the world today.

C.C. Su, "A Local-ether model of propagation of electromagnetic wave," in Bull. Am. Phys. Soc., vol. 45, no. 1, p. 637, Mar. 2000 (Minneapolis, Minnesota).

http://www.ee.nthu.edu.tw/ccsu/

His paper was also published by HARVARD UNIVERSITY:

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-bib_query?2001EPJC...21..701S

See the headline at the top:

NASA ADS Physics/Geophysics Abstract Service



So far, Dr. C.C. Su's papers, which include the correct orbital Sagnac calculations, based on a circular loop with the center of rotation located at the Sun, have been published by:

HARVARD UNIVERSITY

BULLETIN OF THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY

EUROPEAN PHYSICAL JOURNAL

EUROPHYSICS LETTERS JOURNAL

JOURNAL OF ELECTROMAGNETIC WAVES AND APPLICATIONS


Journal of Electromagnetic Waves and Applications:

http://www.ee.nthu.edu.tw/ccsu/qem/f3c.pdf

For the interplanetary propagation, earth’s orbital
motion contributes to the Sagnac effect as well. This local-ether model
has been adopted to account for the Sagnac effect due to earth’s
motions in a wide variety of propagation phenomena, particularly the
global positioning system (GPS), the intercontinental microwave link,
and the interplanetary radar.


The peer reviewers at the Journal of Electromagnetic Waves and Applications agree that the orbital Sagnac is larger than the rotational Sagnac, that it is missing, and that a local-ether model has to be adopted in order to account for this fact.


The MISSING SOLAR GRAVITATIONAL POTENTIAL deals another huge blow to heliocentricity.

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1846706#msg1846706

Many people believe that GR accounts for all the observed
effects caused by gravitational fields. However, in
reality GR is unable to explain an increasing number of
clear observational facts, several of them discovered recently
with the help of the GPS. For instance, GR
predicts the gravitational time dilation and the slowing of
the rate of clocks by the gravitational potential of Earth,
of the Sun, of the galaxy etc. Due to the gravitational
time dilation of the solar gravitational potential, clocks in
the GPS satellites having their orbital plane nearly parallel
to the Earth-Sun axis should undergo a 12 hour period
harmonic variation in their rate so that the difference
between the delay accumulated along the half of the orbit
closest to the Sun amounts up to about 24 ns in the time
display, which would be recovered along the half of the
orbit farthest from the Sun. Such an oscillation exceeds
the resolution of the measurements by more than two
orders of magnitude and, if present, would be very easily
observed. Nevertheless, contradicting the predictions of
GR, no sign of such oscillation is observed.

In fact observations show that the rate of the
atomic clocks on Earth and in the 24 GPS satellites is
ruled by only and exclusively the Earth’s gravitational
field and that effects of the solar gravitational potential
are completely absent.

On the other hand, the time dilation effect of the solar
gravitational field on the atomic clocks orbiting with
Earth round the Sun, which is predicted by GR but not
observed, is a highly precise observation. It exceeds by
orders of magnitude the experimental precision and
hence is infinitely more reliable. If the orbital motion of
Earth round the Sun suppresses the time dilation due to
the solar gravitational field and moreover does not show
the predicted relativistic time dilation due to this orbital
motion
, then it seems reasonable that a clock in a satellite
orbiting round the Earth in a direct equatorial orbit or in a
jet flying round the Earth too should give no evidence of
such a relativistic time dilation. The relativistic time dilation
alleged in both these round the world Sagnac experiments
is in clear and frontal contradiction with the
absence of such a relativistic time dilation effect in the
case of the orbiting Earth round the Sun.

Thus, the hypotheses of the Ruderfer experiment are totally fulfilled:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1846721#msg1846721

Why is there no requirement for a Sagnac correction due to the earth’s orbital motion? Like the transit time in the spinning Mossbauer experiments, any such effect would be completely canceled by the orbital-velocity effect on the satellite clocks.
So let me ask again.  Do you have any quotes from any of these scientists that show they agree with your conclusions?