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Does Papa Legba understand newtons third law?

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Yes
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Newtons third law

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Papa Legba

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1350 on: July 10, 2016, 10:50:53 PM »
Until some of you actually provide citations for your bullshit I will simply repost this:

A rocket in space very much resembles a pressurised vessel separated from a vacuum by a valve.

Which is remarkably similar to the conditions of the Joule free expansion experiment.

Once the valve of the Joule expansion experiment was opened, the pressurised gas released into the vacuum was found to do no work.

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/j150043a002

http://web.mit.edu/16.unified/www/FALL/thermodynamics/notes/node33.html

http://www.etomica.org/app/modules/sites/JouleThomson/Background2.html

This proves a gas-powered rocket would also do no work in a vacuum.

PROVES, markjo.

Here is the definition of 'work':

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/work.html

No work=no force=no movement.

Game fucking over shills.
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markjo

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1351 on: July 11, 2016, 05:30:11 AM »
Quote from: Papa Legba on July 10, 2016, 10:50:53 PM
Until some of you actually provide citations for your bullshit I will simply repost this:

A rocket in space very much resembles a pressurised vessel separated from a vacuum by a valve.

Which is remarkably similar to the conditions of the Joule free expansion experiment.
So you're saying that this:


Resembles this?


I'm sorry but I don't see the resemblance.

Namely, where is the evacuated chamber attached to the end of the rocket?

How much of your citations did you actually read?
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Empirical

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1352 on: July 11, 2016, 07:57:27 AM »
Quote from: Papa Legba on July 10, 2016, 10:50:53 PM
Until some of you actually provide citations for your bullshit I will simply repost this:
Firstly
Quote from: HyperPhysics
Rocket thrust results from the high speed ejection of material and does not require any medium to "push against". Conservation of momentum dictates that if material is ejected backward, the forward momentum of the remaining rocket must increase since an isolated system cannot change its net momentum.
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/rocket.html#c3 Citation 1

Secondly

From the physics forum link you gave
Quote
But this does not mean that the temperature of the gas does not change at all. During the process, the gas in the first partition does work on the gas in the second partition, roughly adiabatically. This means that locally for any pocket of gas, the equation pV^n - const. is valid. The temperature of the gas in the filled partition will decrease, while the temperature of the gas in the partition being filled will increase. Only after a long time will the conduction equilibrate temperature all over the container to its original value (if the gas is ideal).

Reference https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/free-expansion-of-gas.687051/(citation 2)
Look at the bolded parts, you know that the internal energy of an ideal gas is given by it's temperature. So the fact that the temperature of the gas changes shows that some work is done by it (so you are wrong when you say no work is done), but in the end it returns to its original temperature, so all the work it does is returned to it.
So given that the temperature of the gas changes, work occurs. Once the gas equalises, all the work is returned to it, so no net work is done.
So explain how the gas is able to equalise in an infinite Vaccum, Oh wait, it can't, so the net work be become zero.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2016, 08:01:37 AM by Empirical »
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sceptimatic

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1353 on: July 11, 2016, 08:25:49 AM »
Quote from: rabinoz on July 10, 2016, 07:02:18 PM

It's strange that you and your soul-buddy Papa can have these funny ideas, when much smarter people than you from Tsiolkovsky and Goddard (long before NASA) to modern rocket engineers (even like TheEngineer!) had quite different ideas about how rockets (AND jet engines) work.
If those people think rockets work in the so called vacuum of space, then they're not as smart as they, or people make them out.


Quote from: rabinoz on July 10, 2016, 07:02:18 PM
All these come up with essentially the same result (Tsiolkovsky's simple equations omits the pressure difference term), the bit that explains why rockets work better in a vacuum (no air resistance and maximum thrust from the pressure difference term).

Look mummy, they're all out of step except for our Sceppy and Papa!
The sooner people realise that a near vacuum creates nothing of any resistance to any energy placed into it, the sooner people will realise that no reaction can be given back in equal measures for an action.


Quote from: rabinoz on July 10, 2016, 07:02:18 PM
You insist on this law or that law, but all the laws of physics are in agreement and many of these systems can be analysed by a number of methods. If the method and working are correct the answer must be the same, whether gas laws or Newton's laws are used.
One basic law by whoever. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. No more laws are needed, nor make any sense in reality, if logically looked at.

Quote from: rabinoz on July 10, 2016, 07:02:18 PM
And while we are at it the only fundamental one of Newton's Laws of Motion is the second F = ma, both the others can be derived from it anyway - to deny one of Newton's Laws of motion is to deny them all!
As I said above.

Quote from: rabinoz on July 10, 2016, 07:02:18 PM
Now, just for your entertainment, here is a link to some pretty pics for you! Images for Tsiolkovsky's Rocket Equation have fun!
You know things like:


 
 
Two are from your favourite authority!

Yes, I know Papa's told us a billion times, so that makes Papa wrong a billion times!
But, some people have close minds, some have spaghetti molecules and some have spaghetti brains and some have all three, poor souls!
The same thing applies and also having digs will not further your efforts to be correct. Carry on like this and you keep getting red kisses at the end of your work.
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Conker

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1354 on: July 11, 2016, 08:31:38 AM »
No matter how hard you try, I'm not going to let this one slip. Where is the reaction of the gas (I never said vacuum, your silly little game is too obvious) where it leaves the farting man? Either you point to it, or you violate Conservation of momentum
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markjo

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1355 on: July 11, 2016, 08:32:10 AM »
Quote from: sceptimatic on July 11, 2016, 08:25:49 AM
One basic law by whoever. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. .
The action of a mass being pushed out the back of a rocket results in the reaction of the rocket being pushed forwards.

Glad to see that we're making progress.
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sceptimatic

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1356 on: July 11, 2016, 08:35:03 AM »
Quote from: Conker on July 11, 2016, 08:31:38 AM
No matter how hard you try, I'm not going to let this one slip. Where is the reaction of the gas (I never said vacuum, your silly little game is too obvious) where it leaves the farting man? Either you point to it, or you violate Conservation of momentum
What are you talking about?
Is this directed at me or someone else?
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sceptimatic

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1357 on: July 11, 2016, 08:37:18 AM »
Quote from: markjo on July 11, 2016, 08:32:10 AM
Quote from: sceptimatic on July 11, 2016, 08:25:49 AM
One basic law by whoever. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. .
The action of a mass being pushed out the back of a rocket results in the reaction of the rocket being pushed forwards.

Glad to see that we're making progress.
You don't even know how that mass is being pushed out, do you?

The nozzle is open in the space vacuum as we are told.
Ok, now tell me what this gas is pushing against and tell me how it pushes.
In your own words.
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markjo

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1358 on: July 11, 2016, 08:59:33 AM »
Quote from: sceptimatic on July 11, 2016, 08:37:18 AM
Quote from: markjo on July 11, 2016, 08:32:10 AM
Quote from: sceptimatic on July 11, 2016, 08:25:49 AM
One basic law by whoever. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. .
The action of a mass being pushed out the back of a rocket results in the reaction of the rocket being pushed forwards.

Glad to see that we're making progress.
You don't even know how that mass is being pushed out, do you?
Does it really matter?   The only thing that matters is that the mass is being pushed out the back.  The mass doesn't even need to be a gas.  It could just as easily be a liquid like water through a fire hose or a solid mass like a bullet from a gun. 

Quote from: sceptimatic on July 11, 2016, 08:37:18 AM
The nozzle is open in the space vacuum as we are told.
Ok, now tell me what this gas is pushing against and tell me how it pushes.
In your own words.
Gasses push against everything that they touch.  In the case of liquid fuel rocket engines, the propellant burns inside the combustion chamber creating very hot, expanding gasses that push against the walls of the combustion chamber.  The expanding gasses are pushed through the opening (throat) and as a result, the rocket is pushed the other way.

All of the processes that we are really interested in happen inside the rocket engine.  What happens outside the rocket engine doesn't matter in the slightest.
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sceptimatic

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1359 on: July 11, 2016, 09:19:07 AM »
Quote from: markjo on July 11, 2016, 08:59:33 AM
Does it really matter?
Oh yes, it really really matters.

Quote from: markjo on July 11, 2016, 08:59:33 AM
  The only thing that matters is that the mass is being pushed out the back.
It's HOW it is pushed. You keep side stepping this. Why?
Tell me what pushes it out of the back?


Quote from: markjo on July 11, 2016, 08:59:33 AM
  The mass doesn't even need to be a gas.  It could just as easily be a liquid like water through a fire hose or a solid mass like a bullet from a gun.
It doesn't matter. We are dealing with a space vacuum as we are told and rockets expelling gases by some means into the vacuum and somehow also pushing the opposite way to push the rocket.
I want to know how and why it pushes the other way when the arse end is open to what we are told is a vacuum.

 


Quote from: markjo on July 11, 2016, 08:59:33 AM
Gasses push against everything that they touch.
Yes they do in normal every day Earthly atmospheric ways or when they are compressed into a SEALED container.
We are dealing with what we are told, is space and its vacuum, as we are told.

Quote from: markjo on July 11, 2016, 08:59:33 AM
  In the case of liquid fuel rocket engines, the propellant burns inside the combustion chamber creating very hot, expanding gasses that push against the walls of the combustion chamber.
  The expanding gasses are pushed through the opening (throat) and as a result, the rocket is pushed the other way.
How are they pushed through the opening to be expelled into the space  vacuum that we are told is in space?
Quote from: markjo on July 11, 2016, 08:59:33 AM
All of the processes that we are really interested in happen inside the rocket engine.  What happens outside the rocket engine doesn't matter in the slightest.
Apparently with your adhered to laws of rocketry in vacuums they don't, but the truth is far different...far far different, because what happens outside of the rocket from the inner nozzle to the atmosphere, is extremely pertinent to the operation of that rocket.
It works fine in atmosphere but would fail in a space vacuum, as we are told a space vacuum is.

No matter how much it's dressed up and how many mathematical equations, plus gobbledygook is thrown at the space rocket, it will always remain a fantasy. A clever little story.A ruse. A dupe. A sort of brainwashing mind numbing fantasy.

Fantasy is great for entertainment and leisure. the issue is when the fantasy is sold to us all as a TRUTH - and we are basically forced or even ridiculed into buying into it. Some people buy into it without bothering to question. I call these people, trekkies, because they court fantasy and reject logical truth's.
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Empirical

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1360 on: July 11, 2016, 09:48:01 AM »
Quote from: sceptimatic on July 11, 2016, 08:35:03 AM
Quote from: Conker on July 11, 2016, 08:31:38 AM
No matter how hard you try, I'm not going to let this one slip. Where is the reaction of the gas (I never said vacuum, your silly little game is too obvious) where it leaves the farting man? Either you point to it, or you violate Conservation of momentum
What are you talking about?
Is this directed at me or someone else?
It's directed at anyone that doesn't believe rockets work.
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sceptimatic

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1361 on: July 11, 2016, 09:54:44 AM »
Quote from: Empirical on July 11, 2016, 09:48:01 AM
Quote from: sceptimatic on July 11, 2016, 08:35:03 AM
Quote from: Conker on July 11, 2016, 08:31:38 AM
No matter how hard you try, I'm not going to let this one slip. Where is the reaction of the gas (I never said vacuum, your silly little game is too obvious) where it leaves the farting man? Either you point to it, or you violate Conservation of momentum
What are you talking about?
Is this directed at me or someone else?
It's directed at anyone that doesn't believe rockets work.
So what's all this about you farting. What do you mean you like to fart in lifts?
Explain if you want answers.
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sokarul

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1362 on: July 11, 2016, 09:59:34 AM »
Random question, why do you keep changing your beliefs?

First rockets created a low pressure area behind them and the resulting air rushing in propelled the rocket. You know like a swimmer somehow. Now rockets just push off air.
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sceptimatic

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1363 on: July 11, 2016, 10:07:06 AM »
Quote from: sokarul on July 11, 2016, 09:59:34 AM
Random question, why do you keep changing your beliefs?

First rockets created a low pressure area behind them and the resulting air rushing in propelled the rocket. You know like a swimmer somehow. Now rockets just push off air.
I haven't changed anything. If you interpret it all in different ways, it's not my problem. I've told you many times to pay attention and learn stuff but all you do is come back with vile abuse and ridiculous child like retorts.

Grow up and I'll maybe help you along with understanding reality and you can keep your fantasy thoughts for leisure.
No need to thank me.
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Papa Legba

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1364 on: July 11, 2016, 10:16:27 AM »
Until some of you actually provide citations for your bullshit (& no, sokarul, one post from a thread I myself posted does not count) I will simply repost this:

A rocket in space very much resembles a pressurised vessel separated from a vacuum by a valve.

Which is remarkably similar to the conditions of the Joule free expansion experiment.

Once the valve of the Joule expansion experiment was opened, the pressurised gas released into the vacuum was found to do no work.

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/j150043a002

http://web.mit.edu/16.unified/www/FALL/thermodynamics/notes/node33.html

http://www.etomica.org/app/modules/sites/JouleThomson/Background2.html

This proves a gas-powered rocket would also do no work in a vacuum.

PROVES, markjo.

Here is the definition of 'work':

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/work.html

No work=no force=no movement.

Game fucking over shills.
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Empirical

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1365 on: July 11, 2016, 11:38:26 AM »
And this isn't a citation because?
Quote from: HyperPhysics
Rocket thrust results from the high speed ejection of material and does not require any medium to "push against". Conservation of momentum dictates that if material is ejected backward, the forward momentum of the remaining rocket must increase since an isolated system cannot change its net momentum.
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/rocket.html#c3 Citation
Also you still haven't answered this
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TylerJRB

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1366 on: July 11, 2016, 12:16:49 PM »
Papa's still here and preaching the same garbage lol.

Still failing to see a rocket engine and the vacuum is not free expansion.

The most easiest way to disprove this is the expelled matter (propellant) completely leaves the rocket system. Free expansion you have two glass bulbs, pressure expands into the opposite bulb (vacuum) but the fundamental flaw here with papa's argument is it is still part of the same system.

Another flaw is pressure. The pressure is equalised throughout the entire system once the valve is opened. A rocket in a vacuum. This does not happen.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2016, 12:20:43 PM by TylerJRB »
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Papa Legba

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1367 on: July 11, 2016, 12:28:09 PM »
Until some of you actually provide citations for your bullshit (& no, sokarul, one post from a thread I myself posted which does not in fact support your model does not count) I will simply repost this:

A rocket in space very much resembles a pressurised vessel separated from a vacuum by a valve.

Which is remarkably similar to the conditions of the Joule free expansion experiment.

Once the valve of the Joule expansion experiment was opened, the pressurised gas released into the vacuum was found to do no work.

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/j150043a002

http://web.mit.edu/16.unified/www/FALL/thermodynamics/notes/node33.html

http://www.etomica.org/app/modules/sites/JouleThomson/Background2.html

This proves a gas-powered rocket would also do no work in a vacuum.

PROVES, markjo.

Here is the definition of 'work':

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/work.html

No work=no force=no movement.

Game fucking over shills.
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Empirical

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1368 on: July 11, 2016, 12:32:05 PM »
Getting the first post on the page you SHILL!!!
Also, how did you miss the citation here, I'll enlarge it because you are a bit blind.
Quote from: Empirical on July 11, 2016, 11:38:26 AM
And this isn't a citation because?
Quote from: HyperPhysics
Rocket thrust results from the high speed ejection of material and does not require any medium to "push against". Conservation of momentum dictates that if material is ejected backward, the forward momentum of the remaining rocket must increase since an isolated system cannot change its net momentum.
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/rocket.html#c3 Citation
Also you still haven't answered this

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Papa Legba

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1369 on: July 11, 2016, 12:32:30 PM »
Oh, & plus lol at Empirical answering when I called him sokarul:

Quote from: Empirical on July 11, 2016, 11:38:26 AM
And this isn't a citation because?
Quote from: HyperPhysics
Rocket thrust results from the high speed ejection of material and does not require any medium to "push against". Conservation of momentum dictates that if material is ejected backward, the forward momentum of the remaining rocket must increase since an isolated system cannot change its net momentum.
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/rocket.html#c3 Citation
Also you still haven't answered this


Dumb as dogshit sock-puppeting fucking shill.

But don't worry; he is completely un-bannable as this forum is a special shill nature reserve of some mad kind that nobody gives a fuck about.
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Empirical

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1370 on: July 11, 2016, 12:34:59 PM »
If no one gives a fuck about the website why are you here?
Also, still can't see the citation.
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/rocket.html#c3 Citation
« Last Edit: July 11, 2016, 12:37:01 PM by Empirical »
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Papa Legba

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1371 on: July 11, 2016, 12:39:45 PM »
Until some of you actually provide citations for your bullshit that a rocket can defy free expansion (& no, sokarul, one post from a thread I myself posted which does not in fact support your model does not count, nor does a retarded bastardisation of N3) I will simply repost this:

A rocket in space very much resembles a pressurised vessel separated from a vacuum by a valve.

Which is remarkably similar to the conditions of the Joule free expansion experiment.

Once the valve of the Joule expansion experiment was opened, the pressurised gas released into the vacuum was found to do no work.

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/j150043a002

http://web.mit.edu/16.unified/www/FALL/thermodynamics/notes/node33.html

http://www.etomica.org/app/modules/sites/JouleThomson/Background2.html

This proves a gas-powered rocket would also do no work in a vacuum.

PROVES, markjo.

Here is the definition of 'work':

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/work.html

No work=no force=no movement.

Game fucking over shills.
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Empirical

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1372 on: July 11, 2016, 12:41:30 PM »
Quote
Rocket thrust results from the high speed ejection of material and does not require any medium to "push against". Conservation of momentum dictates that if material is ejected backward, the forward momentum of the remaining rocket must increase since an isolated system cannot change its net momentum.
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/rocket.html#c3
Where does this say anything about N3?
What is wrong with the quote? (Trick question, there is nothing wrong with it)
« Last Edit: July 11, 2016, 12:43:07 PM by Empirical »
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Papa Legba

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1373 on: July 11, 2016, 12:51:44 PM »
Quote from: sokarul on July 11, 2016, 11:38:26 AM
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/rocket.html#c3

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/newt.html

Can you see what they did there?

No, of course you can't...

Because you're a dumb as dogshit unbannable shill.

But it was an intelligence test; which you failed...

'Because nonsense'.
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Papa Legba

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1374 on: July 11, 2016, 12:52:59 PM »
Back to this:

A rocket in space very much resembles a pressurised vessel separated from a vacuum by a valve.

Which is remarkably similar to the conditions of the Joule free expansion experiment.

Once the valve of the Joule expansion experiment was opened, the pressurised gas released into the vacuum was found to do no work.

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/j150043a002

http://web.mit.edu/16.unified/www/FALL/thermodynamics/notes/node33.html

http://www.etomica.org/app/modules/sites/JouleThomson/Background2.html

This proves a gas-powered rocket would also do no work in a vacuum.

PROVES, markjo.

Here is the definition of 'work':

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/work.html

No work=no force=no movement.

Game fucking over shills.
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Empirical

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1375 on: July 11, 2016, 01:08:40 PM »
Quote from: Papa Legba on July 11, 2016, 12:51:44 PM
Quote from: sokarul on July 11, 2016, 11:38:26 AM
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/rocket.html#c3

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/newt.html

Can you see what they did there?

No, of course you can't...

Because you're a dumb as dogshit unbannable shill.

But it was an intelligence test; which you failed...

'Because nonsense'.
Just LOL
So Papa, tell us what they did there!
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Papa Legba

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1376 on: July 11, 2016, 01:14:28 PM »
Quote from: Empirical on July 11, 2016, 12:41:30 PM
an isolated system cannot change its net momentum.

A rocket is not an isolated system you dumb as dogshit unbannable shill.

Look:

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/isolated_system

Dumb as dogshit.
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Papa Legba

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1377 on: July 11, 2016, 01:16:12 PM »
Enough of dogshit dumb unbannable lying shills...

Back to this:

A rocket in space very much resembles a pressurised vessel separated from a vacuum by a valve.

Which is remarkably similar to the conditions of the Joule free expansion experiment.

Once the valve of the Joule expansion experiment was opened, the pressurised gas released into the vacuum was found to do no work.

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/j150043a002

http://web.mit.edu/16.unified/www/FALL/thermodynamics/notes/node33.html

http://www.etomica.org/app/modules/sites/JouleThomson/Background2.html

This proves a gas-powered rocket would also do no work in a vacuum.

PROVES, markjo.

Here is the definition of 'work':

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/work.html

No work=no force=no movement.

Game fucking over shills.
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EDao2

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1378 on: July 11, 2016, 01:29:08 PM »
Quote from: Papa Legba on July 08, 2016, 11:59:19 PM
Quote from: EDao2 on July 07, 2016, 11:09:24 PM
The force exerted between objects is between the exploding gas and the rocket itself.

First, you have yet to prove that a gas can combust in an infinite vacuum.

The exchange of energy and, therefore, the creation of heat can be done anywhere- including in a vacuum. This would also mean that you could combust something, including gas, inside said vacuum. This has been both mathematically and empiempirically verified.

Here's a video of combustion occuring in a vacuum.
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And here's a link to an explanation of rocket propulsion with equations for the chemistry involved.
http://www.braeunig.us/space/propuls.htm#combustion

It's up to you prove, mathematically and empirically, how none of this would work in the vacuum of space.

Quote from: Papa Legba on July 08, 2016, 11:59:19 PM
Second, Boyle's Law suggests a gas cannot even exist as such in an infinite vacuum.

Thirdly, Free Expansion states that a gas will expand freely into an infinite vacuum without doing any work.

Fourthly, the gas will follow the path of least resistance as it does so, thus making the possibility of back-pressure creating a force-pairing on the rocket Zero.

You have to prove how an exploding gas follows these rules. Otherwise, again, you're misapplying these rules to suit your argument.
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Empirical

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1379 on: July 11, 2016, 01:38:02 PM »
Quote from: Papa Legba on July 11, 2016, 01:14:28 PM
Quote from: Empirical on July 11, 2016, 12:41:30 PM
an isolated system cannot change its net momentum.

A rocket is not an isolated system you dumb as dogshit unbannable shill.

Look:

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/isolated_system

Dumb as dogshit.
Quote
(physics) A system that does not interact with its surroundings, that is, its total energy and mass stay constant.
So you are saying the rocket in a vacuum can interact with it's surroundings, how can it interact with a vacuum.
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