People on skateboards.

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Papa Legba

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #120 on: October 02, 2015, 02:13:14 PM »
Your inability to comprehend the English language isn't my problem.

But your inability to factor a vacuum into your moronic analogies IS your problem.

A BIG one, as it happens...

Now; carry on Lying.
I got Trolled & Shilled at the CIA Troll/Shill Society and now I feel EPIC!!!

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TexasH

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #121 on: October 02, 2015, 02:22:47 PM »
Your inability to comprehend the English language isn't my problem.

But your inability to factor a vacuum into your moronic analogies IS your problem.

A BIG one, as it happens...

Now; carry on Lying.

Explain why an explosion cannot occur in a vacuum.

*

sceptimatic

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #122 on: October 02, 2015, 02:33:29 PM »
Your inability to comprehend the English language isn't my problem.

But your inability to factor a vacuum into your moronic analogies IS your problem.

A BIG one, as it happens...

Now; carry on Lying.

Explain why an explosion cannot occur in a vacuum.
Free expansion of gases. You've been told before.

?

frenat

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #123 on: October 02, 2015, 02:35:47 PM »
Your inability to comprehend the English language isn't my problem.

But your inability to factor a vacuum into your moronic analogies IS your problem.

A BIG one, as it happens...

Now; carry on Lying.

Explain why an explosion cannot occur in a vacuum.
Free expansion of gases. You've been told before.
closed system and adiabatic, of which a rocket is neither.

?

TexasH

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #124 on: October 02, 2015, 02:49:12 PM »
Your inability to comprehend the English language isn't my problem.

But your inability to factor a vacuum into your moronic analogies IS your problem.

A BIG one, as it happens...

Now; carry on Lying.

Explain why an explosion cannot occur in a vacuum.
Free expansion of gases. You've been told before.

There are no gases prior to detonation.

*

sceptimatic

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #125 on: October 02, 2015, 02:55:14 PM »
Your inability to comprehend the English language isn't my problem.

But your inability to factor a vacuum into your moronic analogies IS your problem.

A BIG one, as it happens...

Now; carry on Lying.

Explain why an explosion cannot occur in a vacuum.
Free expansion of gases. You've been told before.
closed system and adiabatic, of which a rocket is neither.
Free expansion can only work in the fantasy of space. The reality is easy expansion because there's always a resistance to expansion, unless - as I say - fictional space vacuum is used.

You don't even know what you're saying by using adiabatic. You found it on google and decided to appears to solve something. What are you talking about?
Explain it instead of saying it. Don't just use the google explanation. Tell me about a closed system while you're at it, just so we know where we stand.

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sokarul

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #126 on: October 02, 2015, 03:07:14 PM »
I want everyone to read this. This is a page from a 1941 issue of Popular Science explaining new fangled jet propulsion. We all know jets and rockets work virtually the same way. This article was written explaining the correct way they worked, not the way NASA says. It says very plainly that a "monstrous jet of energy pushing against the atmosphere." It can't get any plainer than that. NASA has simply rewrote history to explain how rockets can work if there is no atmosphere to push against in space.


Read the very next sentence and report back.

Okay, "This backward push-( Meaning pushing against the atmosphere)-produced the equivalent in forward thrust."-( Meaning the rocket went forward)

Just like this shows.


No, you are guessing. It uses the word thrust. Thrust comes from the engine, not the atmosphere.

Your second image is wrong BTW.
ANNIHILATOR OF  SHIFTER

It's no slur if it's fact.

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sceptimatic

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #127 on: October 02, 2015, 03:10:02 PM »
Your inability to comprehend the English language isn't my problem.

But your inability to factor a vacuum into your moronic analogies IS your problem.

A BIG one, as it happens...

Now; carry on Lying.

Explain why an explosion cannot occur in a vacuum.
Free expansion of gases. You've been told before.

There are no gases prior to detonation.
Let me try and make you ponder. I doubt it but I'll try. In fact I'm 100% sure you won't ponder it but I'll do it for those who will.

No gases prior to detonation you say. Obvious really in the fictional space vacuum which we have to use so you grasp it all.

Ok so we have a grenade in a vacuum and we pull out the pin. The fuse sets off and the grenade fills with expanded gases that become too strong for the casing. Ok up to now?

So anyway the next scenario is the breach of the casing. This is where you really need to pay attention because we are working in milliseconds here, in this so called vacuum that paves the way for FREE EXPANSION....or as I like to say, "EASY EXPANSION."

Now as soon as something like a grenade breaches, it will breach at the weakest point. So basically the very millisecond that is fractures - all your gases are gone. They are gone because they?....FREELY EXPANDED into that vacuum.
This leaves your grenade intact.

So what happens when the grenade is detonated at sea level atmospheric pressure?
This is why they work, because the expanding gases inside after the pin is pulled, can not....CAN NOT FREELY EXPAND because they are surrounded by a compressed atmosphere that stops those  gases from simply dispersing in milliseconds, because when it breaches, the atmosphere rushes inside as it detonates which causes the grenade to implode and explode, sending shrapnel all over the place.

YES? NO ?

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sokarul

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #128 on: October 02, 2015, 03:16:52 PM »
Your inability to comprehend the English language isn't my problem.

But your inability to factor a vacuum into your moronic analogies IS your problem.

A BIG one, as it happens...

Now; carry on Lying.

Explain why an explosion cannot occur in a vacuum.
Free expansion of gases. You've been told before.

There are no gases prior to detonation.
Let me try and make you ponder. I doubt it but I'll try. In fact I'm 100% sure you won't ponder it but I'll do it for those who will.

No gases prior to detonation you say. Obvious really in the fictional space vacuum which we have to use so you grasp it all.

Ok so we have a grenade in a vacuum and we pull out the pin. The fuse sets off and the grenade fills with expanded gases that become too strong for the casing. Ok up to now?

So anyway the next scenario is the breach of the casing. This is where you really need to pay attention because we are working in milliseconds here, in this so called vacuum that paves the way for FREE EXPANSION....or as I like to say, "EASY EXPANSION."

Now as soon as something like a grenade breaches, it will breach at the weakest point. So basically the very millisecond that is fractures - all your gases are gone. They are gone because they?....FREELY EXPANDED into that vacuum.
This leaves your grenade intact.

So what happens when the grenade is detonated at sea level atmospheric pressure?
This is why they work, because the expanding gases inside after the pin is pulled, can not....CAN NOT FREELY EXPAND because they are surrounded by a compressed atmosphere that stops those  gases from simply dispersing in milliseconds, because when it breaches, the atmosphere rushes inside as it detonates which causes the grenade to implode and explode, sending shrapnel all over the place.

YES? NO ?
No.
ANNIHILATOR OF  SHIFTER

It's no slur if it's fact.

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Papa Legba

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #129 on: October 02, 2015, 03:18:30 PM »
Let's look at two of the preferred analogies for rocket propulsion, then at a rocket itself, & compare them.

1: A cannon firing a cannon-ball. Here you have object A, the cannon, object B, the cannon-ball, with the propellant, P (i.e. gunpowder) between them.

THREE objects.

2: The man on skateboard throwing a ball. Again you have object A, man on skateboard, object B, the ball, with the propellant, P (i.e. the man's arm) between them.

Again; THREE objects.

Now let's look at a rocket: here, you have only object A, the rocket, & the propellant, P (i.e. the fuel).

Only TWO objects.

Object B is missing in the rocket example.

And object B is the necessary recoil mass required to produce motion.

But we know a rocket DOES produce motion in an atmosphere, don't we?

So, some other mass MUST be taking the place of object B.

& the ONLY possibility for that other mass is the mass of the Atmosphere.

Thus, we get object A, the rocket, object B, the atmosphere, with the propellant, P (i.e. the fuel) sitting between them.

THREE objects.

The requirements for Newton 2 & 3 are fulfilled & motion can be produced.

So, NO atmosphere equals NO motion; therefore rockets CANNOT function in a vacuum.

Q.E.D.
I got Trolled & Shilled at the CIA Troll/Shill Society and now I feel EPIC!!!

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sokarul

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #130 on: October 02, 2015, 03:21:08 PM »
lol

Nope

lol
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It's no slur if it's fact.

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inquisitive

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #131 on: October 02, 2015, 03:33:14 PM »
Let's look at two of the preferred analogies for rocket propulsion, then at a rocket itself, & compare them.

1: A cannon firing a cannon-ball. Here you have object A, the cannon, object B, the cannon-ball, with the propellant, P (i.e. gunpowder) between them.

THREE objects.

2: The man on skateboard throwing a ball. Again you have object A, man on skateboard, object B, the ball, with the propellant, P (i.e. the man's arm) between them.

Again; THREE objects.

Now let's look at a rocket: here, you have only object A, the rocket, & the propellant, P (i.e. the fuel).

Only TWO objects.

Object B is missing in the rocket example.

And object B is the necessary recoil mass required to produce motion.

But we know a rocket DOES produce motion in an atmosphere, don't we?

So, some other mass MUST be taking the place of object B.

& the ONLY possibility for that other mass is the mass of the Atmosphere.

Thus, we get object A, the rocket, object B, the atmosphere, with the propellant, P (i.e. the fuel) sitting between them.

THREE objects.

The requirements for Newton 2 & 3 are fulfilled & motion can be produced.

So, NO atmosphere equals NO motion; therefore rockets CANNOT function in a vacuum.

Q.E.D.
How do satellites get into orbit?

?

TexasH

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #132 on: October 02, 2015, 03:46:40 PM »
Explain why an explosion cannot occur in a vacuum.
Free expansion of gases. You've been told before.

There are no gases prior to detonation.
Let me try and make you ponder. I doubt it but I'll try. In fact I'm 100% sure you won't ponder it but I'll do it for those who will.

No gases prior to detonation you say. Obvious really in the fictional space vacuum which we have to use so you grasp it all.

Ok so we have a grenade in a vacuum and we pull out the pin. The fuse sets off and the grenade fills with expanded gases that become too strong for the casing. Ok up to now?

So anyway the next scenario is the breach of the casing. This is where you really need to pay attention because we are working in milliseconds here, in this so called vacuum that paves the way for FREE EXPANSION....or as I like to say, "EASY EXPANSION."

Now as soon as something like a grenade breaches, it will breach at the weakest point. So basically the very millisecond that is fractures - all your gases are gone. They are gone because they?....FREELY EXPANDED into that vacuum.
This leaves your grenade intact.

So what happens when the grenade is detonated at sea level atmospheric pressure?
This is why they work, because the expanding gases inside after the pin is pulled, can not....CAN NOT FREELY EXPAND because they are surrounded by a compressed atmosphere that stops those  gases from simply dispersing in milliseconds, because when it breaches, the atmosphere rushes inside as it detonates which causes the grenade to implode and explode, sending shrapnel all over the place.

YES? NO ?

I think you are misunderstanding what I was asking.  Detonation occurs at the point you pulled the pin and the fuse sets off.  If gases are forming and pressure is increasing, then detonation has already occurred.  I was asking if that part of the process is possible in a vacuum.

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sceptimatic

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #133 on: October 02, 2015, 03:54:11 PM »

I think you are misunderstanding what I was asking.  Detonation occurs at the point you pulled the pin and the fuse sets off.  If gases are forming and pressure is increasing, then detonation has already occurred.  I was asking if that part of the process is possible in a vacuum.
No it's not possible but since we are dealing with fantasy vacuums and space, I'm simply using a potential zero psi against a grenade.

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TexasH

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #134 on: October 02, 2015, 03:57:10 PM »

I think you are misunderstanding what I was asking.  Detonation occurs at the point you pulled the pin and the fuse sets off.  If gases are forming and pressure is increasing, then detonation has already occurred.  I was asking if that part of the process is possible in a vacuum.
No it's not possible but since we are dealing with fantasy vacuums and space, I'm simply using a potential zero psi against a grenade.
Why not?

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sceptimatic

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #135 on: October 02, 2015, 04:05:54 PM »

I think you are misunderstanding what I was asking.  Detonation occurs at the point you pulled the pin and the fuse sets off.  If gases are forming and pressure is increasing, then detonation has already occurred.  I was asking if that part of the process is possible in a vacuum.
No it's not possible but since we are dealing with fantasy vacuums and space, I'm simply using a potential zero psi against a grenade.
Why not?
What are you trying to actually say?

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TheEngineer

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #136 on: October 02, 2015, 04:17:00 PM »
I can't believe you idiots have been arguing the same point with the same idiots for 7 pages now.


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
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markjo

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #137 on: October 02, 2015, 04:18:41 PM »
Free expansion of gases. You've been told before.

And you've been told that you don't seem to understand free expansion as well as you think you do.
#" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">! No longer available
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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markjo

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #138 on: October 02, 2015, 04:21:16 PM »
I can't believe you idiots have been arguing the same point with the same idiots for 7 pages now.
Seven pages is nothing.  I'm sure that this thread can go for 20-30 pages or more of arguing the same point.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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TexasH

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #139 on: October 02, 2015, 04:24:32 PM »

I think you are misunderstanding what I was asking.  Detonation occurs at the point you pulled the pin and the fuse sets off.  If gases are forming and pressure is increasing, then detonation has already occurred.  I was asking if that part of the process is possible in a vacuum.
No it's not possible but since we are dealing with fantasy vacuums and space, I'm simply using a potential zero psi against a grenade.
Why not?
What are you trying to actually say?

This chemical reaction:

Fuel + oxidizer + ignition source -> gases + heat

Can it occur in space?

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frenat

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #140 on: October 02, 2015, 04:47:07 PM »
Your inability to comprehend the English language isn't my problem.

But your inability to factor a vacuum into your moronic analogies IS your problem.

A BIG one, as it happens...

Now; carry on Lying.

Explain why an explosion cannot occur in a vacuum.
Free expansion of gases. You've been told before.
closed system and adiabatic, of which a rocket is neither.
Free expansion can only work in the fantasy of space. The reality is easy expansion because there's always a resistance to expansion, unless - as I say - fictional space vacuum is used.

You don't even know what you're saying by using adiabatic. You found it on google and decided to appears to solve something. What are you talking about?
Explain it instead of saying it. Don't just use the google explanation. Tell me about a closed system while you're at it, just so we know where we stand.
I HAVE explained it before. An adiabatic system is one that does not exchange heat or matter with its surroundings.  A rocket exchanges both.

Free expansion is ALWAYS described in a closed system, a small container of gas expanding into a larger container with a vacuum. 

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frenat

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #141 on: October 02, 2015, 04:48:54 PM »
Your inability to comprehend the English language isn't my problem.

But your inability to factor a vacuum into your moronic analogies IS your problem.

A BIG one, as it happens...

Now; carry on Lying.

Explain why an explosion cannot occur in a vacuum.
Free expansion of gases. You've been told before.

There are no gases prior to detonation.
Let me try and make you ponder. I doubt it but I'll try. In fact I'm 100% sure you won't ponder it but I'll do it for those who will.

No gases prior to detonation you say. Obvious really in the fictional space vacuum which we have to use so you grasp it all.

Ok so we have a grenade in a vacuum and we pull out the pin. The fuse sets off and the grenade fills with expanded gases that become too strong for the casing. Ok up to now?

So anyway the next scenario is the breach of the casing. This is where you really need to pay attention because we are working in milliseconds here, in this so called vacuum that paves the way for FREE EXPANSION....or as I like to say, "EASY EXPANSION."

Now as soon as something like a grenade breaches, it will breach at the weakest point. So basically the very millisecond that is fractures - all your gases are gone. They are gone because they?....FREELY EXPANDED into that vacuum.
This leaves your grenade intact.
So your vacuum, which is nothing, changes the velocity of the gasses?  How does it do that exactly?  How does nothing exert a force on the gasses and change their direction and velocity?

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frenat

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #142 on: October 02, 2015, 04:50:23 PM »
Let's look at two of the preferred analogies for rocket propulsion, then at a rocket itself, & compare them.

1: A cannon firing a cannon-ball. Here you have object A, the cannon, object B, the cannon-ball, with the propellant, P (i.e. gunpowder) between them.

THREE objects.

2: The man on skateboard throwing a ball. Again you have object A, man on skateboard, object B, the ball, with the propellant, P (i.e. the man's arm) between them.

Again; THREE objects.

Now let's look at a rocket: here, you have only object A, the rocket, & the propellant, P (i.e. the fuel).

Only TWO objects.

Object B is missing in the rocket example.

And object B is the necessary recoil mass required to produce motion.

But we know a rocket DOES produce motion in an atmosphere, don't we?

So, some other mass MUST be taking the place of object B.

& the ONLY possibility for that other mass is the mass of the Atmosphere.

Thus, we get object A, the rocket, object B, the atmosphere, with the propellant, P (i.e. the fuel) sitting between them.

THREE objects.

The requirements for Newton 2 & 3 are fulfilled & motion can be produced.

So, NO atmosphere equals NO motion; therefore rockets CANNOT function in a vacuum.

Q.E.D.
So the fuel has zero mass in your world?

?

Papa Legba

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #143 on: October 02, 2015, 05:02:11 PM »
No-one addressed this logically, so here it is again:

Let's look at two of the preferred analogies for rocket propulsion, then at a rocket itself, & compare them.

1: A cannon firing a cannon-ball. Here you have object A, the cannon, object B, the cannon-ball, with the propellant, P (i.e. the expanding gunpowder) between them.

THREE objects.

2: The man on skateboard throwing a ball. Again you have object A, man on skateboard, object B, the ball, with the propellant, P (i.e. the expansion of the man's arm) between them.

Again; THREE objects.

Now let's look at a rocket: here, you have only object A, the rocket, & the propellant, P (i.e. the expanding fuel).

Only TWO objects.

Object B is missing in the rocket example.

And object B is the necessary recoil mass required to produce motion.

But we know a rocket DOES produce motion in an atmosphere, don't we?

So, some other mass MUST be taking the place of object B.

& the ONLY possibility for that other mass is the mass of the Atmosphere.

Thus, we get object A, the rocket, object B, the atmosphere, with the propellant, P (i.e. the expanding fuel) sitting between them.

THREE objects.

The requirements for Newton 2 & 3 are fulfilled & motion can be produced.

So, NO atmosphere equals NO motion; therefore rockets CANNOT function in a vacuum.

Q.E.D.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2015, 05:08:25 PM by Papa Legba »
I got Trolled & Shilled at the CIA Troll/Shill Society and now I feel EPIC!!!

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TexasH

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #144 on: October 02, 2015, 05:24:49 PM »
No-one addressed this logically, so here it is again:

Let's look at two of the preferred analogies for rocket propulsion, then at a rocket itself, & compare them.

1: A cannon firing a cannon-ball. Here you have object A, the cannon, object B, the cannon-ball, with the propellant, P (i.e. the expanding gunpowder) between them.

THREE objects.

2: The man on skateboard throwing a ball. Again you have object A, man on skateboard, object B, the ball, with the propellant, P (i.e. the expansion of the man's arm) between them.

Again; THREE objects.

Now let's look at a rocket: here, you have only object A, the rocket, & the propellant, P (i.e. the expanding fuel).

Only TWO objects.

Object B is missing in the rocket example.

And object B is the necessary recoil mass required to produce motion.

But we know a rocket DOES produce motion in an atmosphere, don't we?

So, some other mass MUST be taking the place of object B.

& the ONLY possibility for that other mass is the mass of the Atmosphere.

Thus, we get object A, the rocket, object B, the atmosphere, with the propellant, P (i.e. the expanding fuel) sitting between them.

THREE objects.

The requirements for Newton 2 & 3 are fulfilled & motion can be produced.

So, NO atmosphere equals NO motion; therefore rockets CANNOT function in a vacuum.

Q.E.D.

Object A = rocket
Object B = exhaust gases

Gas has mass, you can't just ignore it.

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Papa Legba

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #145 on: October 02, 2015, 05:30:19 PM »
Wrong, TexasH; this is why I told you we are not 'conversing'; the expanding exhaust of the rocket is clearly the propellant, P; so where is the object B necessary for motion to be produced?

No-one has addressed this logically, so here it is again:

Let's look at two of the preferred analogies for rocket propulsion, then at a rocket itself, & compare them.

1: A cannon firing a cannon-ball. Here you have object A, the cannon, object B, the cannon-ball, with the propellant, P (i.e. the expanding gunpowder) between them.

THREE objects.

2: The man on skateboard throwing a ball. Again you have object A, man on skateboard, object B, the ball, with the propellant, P (i.e. the expansion of the man's arm) between them.

Again; THREE objects.

Now let's look at a rocket: here, you have only object A, the rocket, & the propellant, P (i.e. the expanding fuel).

Only TWO objects.

Object B is missing in the rocket example.

And object B is the necessary recoil mass required to produce motion.

But we know a rocket DOES produce motion in an atmosphere, don't we?

So, some other mass MUST be taking the place of object B.

& the ONLY possibility for that other mass is the mass of the Atmosphere.

Thus, we get object A, the rocket, object B, the atmosphere, with the propellant, P (i.e. the expanding fuel) sitting between them.

THREE objects.

The requirements for Newton 2 & 3 are fulfilled & motion can be produced.

So, NO atmosphere equals NO motion; therefore rockets CANNOT function in a vacuum.

Q.E.D.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2015, 05:33:21 PM by Papa Legba »
I got Trolled & Shilled at the CIA Troll/Shill Society and now I feel EPIC!!!

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TexasH

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #146 on: October 02, 2015, 05:40:00 PM »
Wrong, TexasH; this is why I told you we are not 'conversing'; the expanding exhaust of the rocket is clearly the propellant, P; so where is the object B necessary for motion to be produced?

Yet, you just did...

If you create an explosion in a cannon, the cannon will move without the cannon ball.

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Papa Legba

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #147 on: October 02, 2015, 06:12:20 PM »
If you create an explosion in a cannon, the cannon will move without the cannon ball.

So the cannonball is unnecessary in your analogy?

Then why include it in the first place?

& what about the medicine ball in your man on skateboard analogy?

Then surely that is also unnecessary?

Are they not analogies for the same system?

The cracks are starting to show...

I got Trolled & Shilled at the CIA Troll/Shill Society and now I feel EPIC!!!

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markjo

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #148 on: October 02, 2015, 06:23:41 PM »
Wrong, TexasH; this is why I told you we are not 'conversing'; the expanding exhaust of the rocket is clearly the propellant, P; so where is the object B necessary for motion to be produced?

No-one has addressed this logically, so here it is again:

Let's look at two of the preferred analogies for rocket propulsion, then at a rocket itself, & compare them.

1: A cannon firing a cannon-ball. Here you have object A, the cannon, object B, the cannon-ball, with the propellant, P (i.e. the expanding gunpowder) between them.

THREE objects.

2: The man on skateboard throwing a ball. Again you have object A, man on skateboard, object B, the ball, with the propellant, P (i.e. the expansion of the man's arm) between them.

Again; THREE objects.
A man's arm is a separate object from the man himself?  Umm...  If you say so.

Now let's look at a rocket: here, you have only object A, the rocket, & the propellant, P (i.e. the expanding fuel).

Only TWO objects.
First of all, the propellant isn't just expanding, it's burning.  You know, an energetic chemical reaction that produces a lot of energy.  That alone proves that free expansion doesn't apply.

Secondly, if the man on a skateboard's arm can be considered a separate object, then it stands to reason that the burning propellant of a rocket can be considered a separate object from the exhaust gasses that the reaction produces.  Therefore, we have THREE objects, not two.

Object B is missing in the rocket example.
No, it isn't.  It's the exhaust gasses that are the product of combustion (object B).

And object B is the necessary recoil mass required to produce motion.
Which is exactly what the exhaust gasses are, a mass being accelerated out the back of the rocket engine.

But we know a rocket DOES produce motion in an atmosphere, don't we?
Yes, for the exact same reason that rockets produce motion outside the atmosphere.

So, some other mass MUST be taking the place of object B.
Yes.  The exhaust gasses.

& the ONLY possibility for that other mass is the mass of the Atmosphere.
No, it isn't.

Thus, we get object A, the rocket, object B, the atmosphere, with the propellant, P (i.e. the expanding fuel) sitting between them.

THREE objects.

The requirements for Newton 2 & 3 are fulfilled & motion can be produced.
Actually, Newton's 3rd law only requires 2 objects: action and reaction.

So, NO atmosphere equals NO motion; therefore rockets CANNOT function in a vacuum.

Q.E.D.
If you say so.  ::)
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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TexasH

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #149 on: October 02, 2015, 06:32:13 PM »
If you create an explosion in a cannon, the cannon will move without the cannon ball.

So the cannonball is unnecessary in your analogy?

Then why include it in the first place?

Is this a serious question?  It might be hard to attack someone without it.

You could conversely, hang the cannonball from a rope, attached an explosive charge to the side of it, and detonate it.  Guess what, the cannonball will move opposite the direction of the explosive charge.  You could hang a cannonball from a rope in a vacuum, attach an explosive charge to the side of it, and detonate it.  Same thing happens, the cannonball will move opposite the direction of the explosive charge.  It will actually move farther since there wouldn't be air resistance.

Quote
& what about the medicine ball in your man on skateboard analogy?

Then surely that is also unnecessary?

Are they not analogies for the same system?

In that analogy?

Object A: Ball
Object B: Man
« Last Edit: October 02, 2015, 06:35:53 PM by TexasH »