It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship

And I and a few other's have explained how rockets really work and yet you refuse to understand it. You lose in the long run because you are hinging your knowledge of rocketry on fantasy.

Believing they work in how you have been told by the text books is nonsense that you may find out about in time. It all depends on whether you have the sense to use your own logic.

Anyway, stick to your lies and I'll stick to the truth.

Scepti, a rocket works because of unbalanced forces.  Let's say that you have a sealed chamber with 500 psi of pressure in it.  That means that every square inch of the chamber has 500 pounds of force pushing out against it (action) and every square inch of the chamber is pushing back with 500 pounds of force (reaction) to keep the system in balance.  Do you agree with this so far?

If yes, then let's cut a one square inch hole in the chamber.  This means that every square inch of the chamber has 500 pounds of force pushing outwards against it (action), and every square inch of the chamber is pushing back with 500 pounds of force (reaction), except for the one square inch that is missing.  This means that the system is no longer in balance because there is 500 pounds of force pushing out (action) with nothing to push back.  Now, what does your logic tell you should happen with this unbalanced system?

Here's a picture to make it a little easier to visualize:

Quote from: sceptimatic on May 21, 2015, 09:34:20 AM

Quote from: BJ1234 on May 21, 2015, 09:28:27 AM

I don't think you understand what free expansion is scepti.

Well, a typical bell end like you would naturally say that when you have no clue what it means yourself.
I don't think many of your sort do because if you did, you would not be arguing about rockets in space.

Typical response from someone who is being paid to spread lies.

Yeah well, you best stay out of it with me. You know the score. Don't jump into stuff you know nothing about and me and you will get along just fine, kid.

Quote from: Rayzor on May 21, 2015, 09:14:26 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on May 21, 2015, 09:10:52 AM

Quote from: Rayzor on May 21, 2015, 09:04:09 AM

As I said,  I'm not interested in the argument,  you've shown that logic is not a factor.   I  was more interested in why you believe these things,  and now I've got a pretty good idea.

I can understand why you believe the lies, as well.

As a matter of interest, how old are you?

Old enough to realise I've been duped for a lot of my life. That should give you a clue. How old are you?
If you are a young kid then it's only natural you will be naive with this stuff.

I'm in my 60's got the grey hair to prove it.   So how old are you?   You can lie if it makes you feel better.

Scepti, a rocket works because of unbalanced forces.  Let's say that you have a sealed chamber with 500 psi of pressure in it.  That means that every square inch of the chamber has 500 pounds of force pushing out against it (action) and every square inch of the chamber is pushing back with 500 pounds of force (reaction) to keep the system in balance.  Do you agree with this so far?

Are we talking sea level here with this chamber or in space?

If yes, then let's cut a one square inch hole in the chamber.  This means that every square inch of the chamber has 500 pounds of force pushing outwards against it (action), and every square inch of the chamber is pushing back with 500 pounds of force (reaction), except for the one square inch that is missing.  This means that the system is no longer in balance because there is 500 pounds of force pushing out (action) with nothing to push back.  Now, what does your logic tell you should happen with this unbalanced system?

Here's a picture to make it a little easier to visualize:

Is this at sea level or in space. I need to know.

Quote from: BJ1234 on May 21, 2015, 09:36:43 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on May 21, 2015, 09:34:20 AM

Quote from: BJ1234 on May 21, 2015, 09:28:27 AM

I don't think you understand what free expansion is scepti.

Well, a typical bell end like you would naturally say that when you have no clue what it means yourself.
I don't think many of your sort do because if you did, you would not be arguing about rockets in space.

Typical response from someone who is being paid to spread lies.

Yeah well, you best stay out of it with me. You know the score.

Yes I do know the score.  Have you haven't a single point yet. 

Don't jump into stuff you know nothing about

You should take your own advice.

and me and you will get along just fine, kid.

I couldn't give a rats ass how well we get along. 

Quote from: sceptimatic on May 21, 2015, 09:32:06 AM

Quote from: Rayzor on May 21, 2015, 09:14:26 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on May 21, 2015, 09:10:52 AM

Quote from: Rayzor on May 21, 2015, 09:04:09 AM

As I said,  I'm not interested in the argument,  you've shown that logic is not a factor.   I  was more interested in why you believe these things,  and now I've got a pretty good idea.

I can understand why you believe the lies, as well.

As a matter of interest, how old are you?

Old enough to realise I've been duped for a lot of my life. That should give you a clue. How old are you?
If you are a young kid then it's only natural you will be naive with this stuff.

I'm in my 60's got the grey hair to prove it.   So how old are you?   You can lie if it makes you feel better.

I'm older than 40 and younger than 60.
I'm shocked that you can't see the bullshit in this carry on. I'm serious as well.
It took me until I semi retired to actually engage my mind towards questioning like this. By doing so, it becomes quite obvious how ridiculous some of these dupes are.

The fact that you don't seem to question anything brings your honesty on this forum into question with me. Not that it'll bother you. I'm just saying.

The only thing I can see is that you have some kind of agenda, whether that's sinister or simply a need to make people believe in authority, when you should know for a fact that people in authority regularly lie to gain.

Quote from: sceptimatic on May 21, 2015, 09:38:54 AM

Quote from: BJ1234 on May 21, 2015, 09:36:43 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on May 21, 2015, 09:34:20 AM

Quote from: BJ1234 on May 21, 2015, 09:28:27 AM

I don't think you understand what free expansion is scepti.

Well, a typical bell end like you would naturally say that when you have no clue what it means yourself.
I don't think many of your sort do because if you did, you would not be arguing about rockets in space.

Typical response from someone who is being paid to spread lies.

Yeah well, you best stay out of it with me. You know the score.

Yes I do know the score.  Have you haven't a single point yet. 

Quote

Don't jump into stuff you know nothing about

You should take your own advice.

Quote

and me and you will get along just fine, kid.

I couldn't give a rats ass how well we get along.

Then sit with your crayons and stop being a little irritant or there will be no ice cream, boy.

Quote from: markjo on May 21, 2015, 09:37:55 AM

Scepti, a rocket works because of unbalanced forces.  Let's say that you have a sealed chamber with 500 psi of pressure in it.  That means that every square inch of the chamber has 500 pounds of force pushing out against it (action) and every square inch of the chamber is pushing back with 500 pounds of force (reaction) to keep the system in balance.  Do you agree with this so far?

Are we talking sea level here with this chamber or in space?

It doesn't matter.  The inside of the chamber is at 500 psi, that's all that matters.

Quote from: markjo on May 21, 2015, 09:37:55 AM

If yes, then let's cut a one square inch hole in the chamber.  This means that every square inch of the chamber has 500 pounds of force pushing outwards against it (action), and every square inch of the chamber is pushing back with 500 pounds of force (reaction), except for the one square inch that is missing.  This means that the system is no longer in balance because there is 500 pounds of force pushing out (action) with nothing to push back.  Now, what does your logic tell you should happen with this unbalanced system?

Here's a picture to make it a little easier to visualize:

Is this at sea level or in space. I need to know.

Again, it doesn't matter.  You have 500 pounds of force that isn't being balanced, that's all that matters.

Quote from: BJ1234 on May 21, 2015, 09:49:24 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on May 21, 2015, 09:38:54 AM

Quote from: BJ1234 on May 21, 2015, 09:36:43 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on May 21, 2015, 09:34:20 AM

Quote from: BJ1234 on May 21, 2015, 09:28:27 AM

I don't think you understand what free expansion is scepti.

Well, a typical bell end like you would naturally say that when you have no clue what it means yourself.
I don't think many of your sort do because if you did, you would not be arguing about rockets in space.

Typical response from someone who is being paid to spread lies.

Yeah well, you best stay out of it with me. You know the score.

Yes I do know the score.  Have you haven't a single point yet. 

Quote

Don't jump into stuff you know nothing about

You should take your own advice.

Quote

and me and you will get along just fine, kid.

I couldn't give a rats ass how well we get along.

Then sit with your crayons and stop being a little irritant or there will be no ice cream, boy.

Once again, you should follow your own advice.  You have shown that you have no critical thinking skills, your only skill is to automatically oppose whatever you deem is "the authority" and claim you know better.
You have shown you don't understand anything you are talking about.

Quote from: sceptimatic on May 21, 2015, 09:46:59 AM

Quote from: markjo on May 21, 2015, 09:37:55 AM

Scepti, a rocket works because of unbalanced forces.  Let's say that you have a sealed chamber with 500 psi of pressure in it.  That means that every square inch of the chamber has 500 pounds of force pushing out against it (action) and every square inch of the chamber is pushing back with 500 pounds of force (reaction) to keep the system in balance.  Do you agree with this so far?

Are we talking sea level here with this chamber or in space?

It doesn't matter.  The inside of the chamber is at 500 psi, that's all that matters.

Quote from: sceptimatic on May 21, 2015, 09:46:59 AM

Quote from: markjo on May 21, 2015, 09:37:55 AM

If yes, then let's cut a one square inch hole in the chamber.  This means that every square inch of the chamber has 500 pounds of force pushing outwards against it (action), and every square inch of the chamber is pushing back with 500 pounds of force (reaction), except for the one square inch that is missing.  This means that the system is no longer in balance because there is 500 pounds of force pushing out (action) with nothing to push back.  Now, what does your logic tell you should happen with this unbalanced system?

Here's a picture to make it a little easier to visualize:

Is this at sea level or in space. I need to know.

Again, it doesn't matter.  You have 500 pounds of force that isn't being balanced, that's all that matters.

Sorry markjo but it isn't all that matters. It's all that matters to you because you can't grasp the difference between resistance to action at sea level and no resistance to action in your vacuum of your space.

Seriously, we need to deal with these seperately.

Quote from: sceptimatic on May 21, 2015, 09:52:32 AM

Quote from: BJ1234 on May 21, 2015, 09:49:24 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on May 21, 2015, 09:38:54 AM

Quote from: BJ1234 on May 21, 2015, 09:36:43 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on May 21, 2015, 09:34:20 AM

Quote from: BJ1234 on May 21, 2015, 09:28:27 AM

I don't think you understand what free expansion is scepti.

Well, a typical bell end like you would naturally say that when you have no clue what it means yourself.
I don't think many of your sort do because if you did, you would not be arguing about rockets in space.

Typical response from someone who is being paid to spread lies.

Yeah well, you best stay out of it with me. You know the score.

Yes I do know the score.  Have you haven't a single point yet. 

Quote

Don't jump into stuff you know nothing about

You should take your own advice.

Quote

and me and you will get along just fine, kid.

I couldn't give a rats ass how well we get along.

Then sit with your crayons and stop being a little irritant or there will be no ice cream, boy.

Once again, you should follow your own advice.  You have shown that you have no critical thinking skills, your only skill is to automatically oppose whatever you deem is "the authority" and claim you know better.
You have shown you don't understand anything you are talking about.

And yet you just can't help yourself can you. Like a little terrier snapping at my ankles. Behave yourself and either put some effort it or stay out of it because tit for tat just ends up pointless with insults.

I'm older than 40 and younger than 60.
I'm shocked that you can't see the bullshit in this carry on. I'm serious as well.
It took me until I semi retired to actually engage my mind towards questioning like this. By doing so, it becomes quite obvious how ridiculous some of these dupes are.

The fact that you don't seem to question anything brings your honesty on this forum into question with me. Not that it'll bother you. I'm just saying.

The only thing I can see is that you have some kind of agenda, whether that's sinister or simply a need to make people believe in authority, when you should know for a fact that people in authority regularly lie to gain.

You might think that I don't question anything,  but the opposite is true,  I question everything,  just because I come to different conclusions to what you have is neither here nor there.   I don't have a specific agenda,  the agenda ( if you could call it that )  I have is to try and understand why people believe crackpot conspiracies.  And debunking the obvious lies and unsupported assertions that the conspiracy loonies seem to thrive on.

My background is in Science and Engineering,  I know what works and I know how to evaluate evidence.   Call it a BS detector if you like.   The ease which people believe blatant lies unconnected to reality seems to be proportional to how way out the lie is.  And people like yourself with a natural distrust of authority are uniquely susceptible to conspiracy theories,  because they reinforce your preconceived notions of mistrust of authority.

So it's easier to believe that NASA is lying about space travel, and hiding the flat earth.  There is no south pole and satellites are faked somehow,  and on we go.

Gotta love a good conspiracy.

 

Quote from: BJ1234 on May 21, 2015, 09:55:53 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on May 21, 2015, 09:52:32 AM

Quote from: BJ1234 on May 21, 2015, 09:49:24 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on May 21, 2015, 09:38:54 AM

Quote from: BJ1234 on May 21, 2015, 09:36:43 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on May 21, 2015, 09:34:20 AM

Quote from: BJ1234 on May 21, 2015, 09:28:27 AM

I don't think you understand what free expansion is scepti.

Well, a typical bell end like you would naturally say that when you have no clue what it means yourself.
I don't think many of your sort do because if you did, you would not be arguing about rockets in space.

Typical response from someone who is being paid to spread lies.

Yeah well, you best stay out of it with me. You know the score.

Yes I do know the score.  Have you haven't a single point yet. 

Quote

Don't jump into stuff you know nothing about

You should take your own advice.

Quote

and me and you will get along just fine, kid.

I couldn't give a rats ass how well we get along.

Then sit with your crayons and stop being a little irritant or there will be no ice cream, boy.

Once again, you should follow your own advice.  You have shown that you have no critical thinking skills, your only skill is to automatically oppose whatever you deem is "the authority" and claim you know better.
You have shown you don't understand anything you are talking about.

And yet you just can't help yourself can you. Like a little terrier snapping at my ankles. Behave yourself and either put some effort it or stay out of it because tit for tat just ends up pointless with insults.

I am putting as much effort into it as you.  You claim to fame is saying "you are wrong, I am right, if you can't see why, you are just an indoctrinated mind" 

Sorry markjo but it isn't all that matters. It's all that matters to you because you can't grasp the difference between resistance to action at sea level and no resistance to action in your vacuum of your space.

Seriously, we need to deal with these seperately.

No.  I'm not talking about resistance to an action, I'm talking about the balance of action and reaction within a system.  When action and reaction are not balanced, then you will have a net force.  Whether that force leads to motion or not is a different matter.

Markjo: I did NOT 'miss a zero'; the maximum operating altitude above sea level (i.e. maximum altitude at which it can be launched successfully) of the BuK M2E missile is 3,000 metres.

I provided a link to a site containing all performance data, including RANGE; really, you simply do not know how to read, do you?

Also; if it is the case that a rocket somehow 'pushes on itself', then, using the exact same principle, I should be able to lift myself up by pulling on my ear, until I reach space, where I will be able to travel EVEN FASTER!

Somehow...

Your position is untenable; you have no genuine science or logic to back your assertions up.

You are done.

But you will never stop posting otherwise.

Why?

Oh, & Rayzor: you claim that I'M playing 'semantic games'?

LOL!!!

That really does 'beggar belief'!

Now tell me again how NASA's GAS-powered rockets work in a VACUUM in direct violation of the principle of Free Expansion of GAS in a VACUUM.

I'll get my popcorn...

& lastly: every military rocket designer knows that rockets require an outside mass to push against.

The ones I've met could barely disguise their contempt when NASA, space-travel etc. were mentioned, & changed the subject asap.

Really; it's an embarrassment to them.

But, hey - believe what you want.

Jack Parsons; L Ron Hubbard; Aleister Crowley: what WERE they all doing together?

Quote from: sceptimatic on May 21, 2015, 06:43:25 AM

And I and a few other's have explained how rockets really work and yet you refuse to understand it. You lose in the long run because you are hinging your knowledge of rocketry on fantasy.

Believing they work in how you have been told by the text books is nonsense that you may find out about in time. It all depends on whether you have the sense to use your own logic.

Anyway, stick to your lies and I'll stick to the truth.

Scepti, a rocket works because of unbalanced forces.  Let's say that you have a sealed chamber with 500 psi of pressure in it.  That means that every square inch of the chamber has 500 pounds of force pushing out against it (action) and every square inch of the chamber is pushing back with 500 pounds of force (reaction) to keep the system in balance.  Do you agree with this so far?

If yes, then let's cut a one square inch hole in the chamber.  This means that every square inch of the chamber has 500 pounds of force pushing outwards against it (action), and every square inch of the chamber is pushing back with 500 pounds of force (reaction), except for the one square inch that is missing.  This means that the system is no longer in balance because there is 500 pounds of force pushing out (action) with nothing to push back.  Now, what does your logic tell you should happen with this unbalanced system?

Here's a picture to make it a little easier to visualize:

Here's what my logic tells me:

All of the mass (gas/liquid) in the system will move toward the opening. Nothing will push opposite the opening. The pressure inside the vessel will be reduced at a constant rate until all of the mass has exited.

No motion will occur as no external force has been applied, as per Newton's first law.

Edit: This is assuming an isolated system, like a rocket in space.

Oh, legion!

Will you stop being so logical!

You know how it annoys these NASA-cultists...

Whatever; better get ready for another false analogy to come your way; they seem to have an endless supply of the damn things.

Here's what my logic tells me:

All of the mass (gas/liquid) in the system will move toward the opening. Nothing will push opposite the opening. The pressure inside the vessel will be reduced at a constant rate until all of the mass has exited.

What direction is the pressure remaining in the vessel pushing while the pressure is being reduced?  Is all of the pressure directed only at the opening, or is it pushing against the chamber equally in all directions, including the opening?

No motion will occur as no external force has been applied, as per Newton's first law.

Again, I'm not worried about motion at this point.  I'm only concerned with the balance of action/reaction forces.

Yes, markjo; let's suppose a thing that free expansion proves conclusively can not occur in a vacuum.

Like 'space'.

Free expansion only applies to an ideal gas (no mass) and a closed system.  Rocket exhaust does have mass and space is not a closed system.

LOL!

Nice try.

Free expansion is an idealised extrapolation of an observed phenomena; makes for a neat equation, you know?

In the real world, the work done by real gases in practically-possible vacuums is as near to Zero as makes no difference.

Any Edwardian steam-engineering apprentice knew this; yet you don't.

Why?

P.S. I thought you were done with this thread; we can only hope...

& have you read the specs of the BuK M2E properly yet? LOL!

Real rocket engineers laugh at you; I've heard them & laughed along too.

But keep believing whatever you like.

Parsons; Hubbard; Crowley: what were they doing, again?

Work (done by a gas) = Pressure x change in Volume (W=PV).

When the pressure = Zero (as in a vacuum) then the work done = Zero.

You can't get something from nothing!

Keep 'debating', though; I need the LOLs.

Work (done by a gas) = Pressure x change in Volume (W=PV).

When the pressure = Zero (as in a vacuum) then the work done = Zero.

You can't get something from nothing!

Keep 'debating', though; I need the LOLs.

So much fail.

The work done by a gas in the equation you have quoted is for closed systems like pistons, bladders etc and calculates the work done on the surrounding system ie amount of force imparted on a piston to push it upwards.

A rocket does not work like this. A rocket uses a different principle using the conservation of momentum.

Papa Legless is trolling you,   he calls it debating  but all he does is throw out some bait and negate what ever comes back.    He is without soul.   

Quote from: Alpha2Omega on May 21, 2015, 07:17:31 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on May 12, 2015, 09:55:50 AM

If I ever said I had 13 academic qualifications then I would be telling lies. Did I ever say I had and if so I need you to put up or shut up and stop acting like a little screaming girl. 

It's accumulated some responses, some more than a week old. Why don't you tootle over there, look them over, and answer the responses to the challenge you issued instead of replying to topics "not worthy of your time"? Surely that topic is worthy; otherwise, why did you bring it up?

I asked people to put up or shut up. Nobody has put up, including you. If you think you have then link to the thread where I said I had 13 academic qualifications.
If not, then shut up and stop acting like a whining little girl.

Sorry. That may have been too difficult for you to follow. Click here. This shows where you made the claim that you had 13 academic qualifications. Is that clear enough?

Your claim that you have 13 academic qualifications is there for all to see. If you disagree, it would be best for you to answer in the thread where the challenge to find that claim was made. If you think you need to reply to this post, a link to your convincing response in the other thread would be most effective.If you simply wheedle more here, it makes it even more obvious that you can't defend your claim. Which would surprise no one.

And yet you just can't help yourself can you. Like a little terrier snapping at my ankles. Behave yourself and either put some effort it or stay out of it because tit for tat just ends up pointless with insults.

I've told you people time and time again to stay out of dealing with me. You're not worthy of my time. You're a bunch of naive retarded idiots that can't grasp basic stuff and have to live in a world of made up nonsnse.

You sure spend a lot of time on people "not worthy of your time". Have you considered spending time on things more worthy of it?

How's that scale model of the Ice Dome coming along?

Your claim that you have 13 academic qualifications is there for all to see.

He said that he had 13, but he never said 13 what.

Quote from: Alpha2Omega on May 21, 2015, 07:50:29 PM

Your claim that you have 13 academic qualifications is there for all to see.

He said that he had 13, but he never said 13 what.

However, it was in a direct response to the question of how many academic qualifications he had.  If someone asks you, how many dogs you owned, then you reply with just the number 4, it is implied that your response is, in fact, the number of dogs you own, not, for example, the number of brain hemorrhages that scepti has had.

Quote from: markjo on May 21, 2015, 08:10:39 PM

Quote from: Alpha2Omega on May 21, 2015, 07:50:29 PM

Your claim that you have 13 academic qualifications is there for all to see.

He said that he had 13, but he never said 13 what.

However, it was in a direct response to the question of how many academic qualifications he had.  If someone asks you, how many dogs you owned, then you reply with just the number 4, it is implied that your response is, in fact, the number of dogs you own, not, for example, the number of brain hemorrhages that scepti has had.

Exactly.