Why do you support Tucker Carlson?

What in the world?

If there's plenty of evidence that they were out publicly and organizations promoting it, why can't you provide a source. I am even trying to find sources for you. There's just no evidence that people were openly crossdressing (which isn't trans) or that outside of Germany people were accepting of transitioning, or that outside of Germany there were any orgs promoting it. It was a subculture.

You have reading comprehension issues. Who was talking about finding out someone is a "sissy"? Sissy porn is forced feminization porn. It's fetish porn. You are watching fetish porn. lol

Your argument doesn't exist!
No where in this conversation did I say they didn't exist.
You have no evidence of this public fetish performance.
I'm sure they did use public toilets, but the crossdressers weren't in the women's, and only the stealthiest most passing transsexuals would have used the women's.

Transgender females are female and therefore not hairy men in drag. Female = sex, male = sex.

Trans men pass much more easily if they're taking testosterone, because exogenous testosterone is much more powerful than estrogen. If you'd been actually reading and comprehending you would have seen that I said there are some men who pass. Most of them don't. Even the ones you think are hot probably don't irl. If it was so easy for men to pass as women they wouldn't have invented facial feminization surgery, or shaving the adam's apple, etc.

The square jaw thing is a genetic trait. My dad at 70 doesn't have it, and alot of people who are crossdressers don't either. Facial hair can be an issue for would be men trying to pass as women, but natural women have for centuries bleached, plucked, etc to their face and legs and such.  All of these approaches means men have options. And no, many men have a somewhat small adam's apple. 

Meanwhile, this mom in the Washington Post looks masculine. You see my point?

Square jaw, brow ridge, hairline, shoulders, hands. Sure some men are not as easy to clock.

I do not see your point. No one is denying that there are feminine looking men, or masculine looking women.

I guess opposing the idea that without extensive work, all crossdressers would look about like this:

That's a fake one. An "activist." Any real crossdresser actually makes their appearance work. If they are not convincing, likely it's more a disguise.

More typical teenage crossdresser, assuming hard work and fairly good genes.

By about their 40s (my age), it takes more work to remove facial and body hair, but still, an hour's work can usually make face, legs, and arms pretty smooth.

The stubble is not totally gone with makeup, but typically this level is passing. For most places, anyway.

The people who fail are typically the ones that look like they are pretending anyway to get into women's room. (E.g. this one)

You and I both agree that if a crossdresser fails this hard, they shouldn't be anywhere near any public restroom aside from unisex.  And even then, a single use. Wtf?!?

this level is passing

No, no it isnt.

Quote from: bulmabriefs144 on April 26, 2026, 06:32:12 PM

this level is passing

No, no it isnt.

Honestly, I thought the image on the right looked more passable than the left.  Likely due to the smile.

But yeah, its passing if you aren't gonna stare or engage in long, close quarters conversation.

What in the world?

If there's plenty of evidence that they were out publicly and organizations promoting it, why can't you provide a source. I am even trying to find sources for you. There's just no evidence that people were openly crossdressing (which isn't trans) or that outside of Germany people were accepting of transitioning, or that outside of Germany there were any orgs promoting it. It was a subculture.

A quick visit to the transgender history wiki page gives us a good staring point.  I'm going to assume you found that and immediately assumed it was all fake or something.  So I'll give you links to pages NOT on the wiki but with information I found on the wiki.

Joseph Israel Lobdell
Charley Parkhurst

Jennie June - Author of 'Autobiography of an Androgyne' which was published in 1918
the Cercle Hermaphroditos society.  While not active in politics, they existed and helped others.

Ava Betty Brown and a host of others, arrested for crossdressing in public.
https://lawreview.uchicago.edu/online-archive/good-reason-be-suspicious-us-legal-history-transgender-discrimination

Now, if this was not happening in public, how were they arrested in public for doing this?  Some even having their genitals removed.
Then you have Dr. Harry Benjamin in 1966 who did gender affirming care in the late 40s and early 50s.


While the exact number isn't known, people being arrested for cross dressing in public is estimated to be in the hundreds each year during the mid 20th century.
https://jacobin.com/2023/03/cross-dressing-law-united-states-history-drag-bans#:~:text=During%20these%20decades%2C%20hundreds%20of%20people%20were,of%20the%20burgeoning%20gay%20and%20trans%20press.

So... did you not find these, or did you just dismiss them?

You have reading comprehension issues. Who was talking about finding out someone is a "sissy"? Sissy porn is forced feminization porn. It's fetish porn. You are watching fetish porn. lol

No, feminization is not the same as being a sissy.  A sissy is weak, cowardly, or feminine in actions.  Basically the insulting word for a femboi, which is a male who identifies as male but acts feminine.  Basically the opposite of a Tomboy.
Feminization is a fetish where a submissive person likes to be forced to be female, dressed as female, and act as female, for sexual gratification.  The dominant (male or female) enjoys doing this.  This is a sexual fetish but being a sissy or femboi is just how you describe these people.  One does it in the bedroom as an act, one does it as a lifestyle.  Or would you consider tomboys to be a porn fetish?

Your argument doesn't exist!
No where in this conversation did I say they didn't exist.

Well, then if you agree they existed in public and were in public, I see no argument here.  We agree.

You have no evidence of this public fetish performance.

*points to the list of people who did it* I'd also like to note that 40+cities in the nation don't create laws to stop something that doesn't happen.  So the existence of these laws clearly proves that it did happen in public.

I'm sure they did use public toilets, but the crossdressers weren't in the women's, and only the stealthiest most passing transsexuals would have used the women's.

Considering at the time they were one in the same... we're again in agreement.  There was no real difference in language as the term of transgender isn't even exist until the 60s despite surgeries existing in the 30s.  Tho they didn't all survive....

Trans men pass much more easily if they're taking testosterone, because exogenous testosterone is much more powerful than estrogen. If you'd been actually reading and comprehending you would have seen that I said there are some men who pass. Most of them don't. Even the ones you think are hot probably don't irl. If it was so easy for men to pass as women they wouldn't have invented facial feminization surgery, or shaving the adam's apple, etc.

And if you actually read my posts, you'll say I never made such a claim that ALL transgenders were passable without surgery.  Merely that those who could, did and thus used public toilets.

We are, it seems in agreement.

Quote from: bulmabriefs144 on April 26, 2026, 06:32:12 PM

this level is passing

No, no it isnt.

In the average public bathroom? Yes, it is. In a bathroom near a school or something?  No. It's a D- minus grade, but it's passing.

The vast majority of women, unless you are like this actively looking like you're gonna molest them or their kids, with let you in with a D-. Some overprotective parents won't take less than a B. And I went to one church (that I eventually left) where they quietly insisted I use the men's room. They were hardline Baptist tho (with a serious breeder community) and by the end of the year, they had a marriage and family sermon when I was living with one roommate who was adopted, and felt like the sermon was aimed at me and my household, so I just walked out. They were mostly welcoming though, and nobody directly told me to leave.
At the other end of society, I've gotten the duckling treatment (sorta, "Awww honey, let me help you out here"). And no, it's not a liberal conservative divide. Some of the worst users and bigots I've known leaned left.

Quote from: Space Cowgirl on April 26, 2026, 03:36:51 PM

What in the world?

If there's plenty of evidence that they were out publicly and organizations promoting it, why can't you provide a source. I am even trying to find sources for you. There's just no evidence that people were openly crossdressing (which isn't trans) or that outside of Germany people were accepting of transitioning, or that outside of Germany there were any orgs promoting it. It was a subculture.

A quick visit to the transgender history wiki page gives us a good staring point.  I'm going to assume you found that and immediately assumed it was all fake or something.  So I'll give you links to pages NOT on the wiki but with information I found on the wiki.

Joseph Israel Lobdell
Charley Parkhurst

Jennie June - Author of 'Autobiography of an Androgyne' which was published in 1918
the Cercle Hermaphroditos society.  While not active in politics, they existed and helped others.

Ava Betty Brown and a host of others, arrested for crossdressing in public.
https://lawreview.uchicago.edu/online-archive/good-reason-be-suspicious-us-legal-history-transgender-discrimination

Now, if this was not happening in public, how were they arrested in public for doing this?  Some even having their genitals removed.
Then you have Dr. Harry Benjamin in 1966 who did gender affirming care in the late 40s and early 50s.


While the exact number isn't known, people being arrested for cross dressing in public is estimated to be in the hundreds each year during the mid 20th century.
https://jacobin.com/2023/03/cross-dressing-law-united-states-history-drag-bans#:~:text=During%20these%20decades%2C%20hundreds%20of%20people%20were,of%20the%20burgeoning%20gay%20and%20trans%20press.

So... did you not find these, or did you just dismiss them?

Quote

You have reading comprehension issues. Who was talking about finding out someone is a "sissy"? Sissy porn is forced feminization porn. It's fetish porn. You are watching fetish porn. lol

No, feminization is not the same as being a sissy.  A sissy is weak, cowardly, or feminine in actions.  Basically the insulting word for a femboi, which is a male who identifies as male but acts feminine.  Basically the opposite of a Tomboy.
Feminization is a fetish where a submissive person likes to be forced to be female, dressed as female, and act as female, for sexual gratification.  The dominant (male or female) enjoys doing this.  This is a sexual fetish but being a sissy or femboi is just how you describe these people.  One does it in the bedroom as an act, one does it as a lifestyle.  Or would you consider tomboys to be a porn fetish?

Quote

Your argument doesn't exist!
No where in this conversation did I say they didn't exist.

Well, then if you agree they existed in public and were in public, I see no argument here.  We agree.

Quote

You have no evidence of this public fetish performance.

*points to the list of people who did it* I'd also like to note that 40+cities in the nation don't create laws to stop something that doesn't happen.  So the existence of these laws clearly proves that it did happen in public.

Quote

I'm sure they did use public toilets, but the crossdressers weren't in the women's, and only the stealthiest most passing transsexuals would have used the women's.

Considering at the time they were one in the same... we're again in agreement.  There was no real difference in language as the term of transgender isn't even exist until the 60s despite surgeries existing in the 30s.  Tho they didn't all survive....

Quote

Trans men pass much more easily if they're taking testosterone, because exogenous testosterone is much more powerful than estrogen. If you'd been actually reading and comprehending you would have seen that I said there are some men who pass. Most of them don't. Even the ones you think are hot probably don't irl. If it was so easy for men to pass as women they wouldn't have invented facial feminization surgery, or shaving the adam's apple, etc.

And if you actually read my posts, you'll say I never made such a claim that ALL transgenders were passable without surgery.  Merely that those who could, did and thus used public toilets.

We are, it seems in agreement.

Jennie June - seems to have suffered from being forced to live by gendered norms. Probably a lesbian!

Sure a handful of people were arrested for crossdressing. The reason the crossdressers crossdressed in secret for the most part.

Harry Benjamin - German - understood the difference between transvestism and transsexualism

Calling someone a "sissy" or a "tomboy" isn't porn. These terms existed before internet porn existed. Since you love wikipedia so much, you could have looked it up https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sissy_hypno Or you could read some people talking about how they found out they were trans by watching it https://www.reddit.com/r/asktransgender/comments/7yfyp2/anybody_discover_they_were_trans_though_sissy_porn/

We are not in agreement on any of this, because you are doing the meme. You are pretending you don't understand what words mean.

You have zero evidence that men were using women's public toilets in the 1930s. It's a fantasy. If they did, and they were caught, they would have been arrested. Men could piss in the streets in the 1930s. Women were still campaigning for proper toilet facilities in most cities into the 1940s and 50s. Fancy hotels and restaurants had nice restrooms long before they were put in place for the public, then there were the dangerous underground toilets (yes, women were worried for their safety even then). In office buildings men had "closets" on every floor, but women only had one in the entire building.

I am bored arguing with you. You can believe what you want to believe.

You have zero evidence that men were using women's public toilets in the 1930s. It's a fantasy. If they did, and they were caught, they would have been arrested. Men could piss in the streets in the 1930s. Women were still campaigning for proper toilet facilities in most cities into the 1940s and 50s. Fancy hotels and restaurants had nice restrooms long before they were put in place for the public, then there were the dangerous underground toilets (yes, women were worried for their safety even then). In office buildings men had "closets" on every floor, but women only had one in the entire building.

Are you starting to get that gendered bathrooms are oppressive?

Instead of just better restrooms in general, they lobbied for exclusive bathrooms. Did that get them what they really wanted?

A Babylon Bee article takes a jab at this: "Woman briefly identifies as a man to avoid long lines." Fuck, you could do that all you want, and after an initial period of "no sissy boys in male bathrooms!" only to find out they were females, the whole thing would be put to rest.

Men don't treat women nearly as badly as women think they will. For wanting to have your own restrooms, you managed to put yourself into a hell of your own making of endless waiting just to pee. Many bathrooms today have two women's restrooms, and it still isn't enough to avoid lines. You have to suck it up, and admit this entire idea is stupid. If women were allowed to go to any restroom they wanted, the line would disappear. If men could dress however they wanted, all the bullying over being a sissy would disappear too.

Have some TED Talk.

Quote from: disputeone on April 26, 2026, 09:20:35 PM

Quote from: bulmabriefs144 on April 26, 2026, 06:32:12 PM

this level is passing

No, no it isnt.

its passing if you aren't gonna stare or engage in long, close quarters conversation.

No, no it isn't.

It's a D- pass. The stubble gives it away, but what passing ultimately is, is the earnest effort that says "I'm more interested in looking like a woman than trying to (whatever you fear)." Passing is not about recognition, but acceptance.

That is, it's not about "fooling the public". If you're doing that, it's wrongheaded from the start. Something will always give you away. Your hands, your shoulders, your voice, I dunno. But "does this person seem like a sweet gal?" If so, then she passes.

Think of passing like acting or a magic trick. Does the magician actually fool anyone besides children? Do they believe real magic just took place? We should hope not. The magician entertains, that is to say, they bring joy to others. Similarly, when acting, the entire audience does something called suspension of disbelief.  The actor acts, so the audience returns the favor by believing that the actor has taken them to the setting.

Consider this. Sporus, the first transsexual in human history (omg, Nero) somehow had hundreds of people going along with this. Was it because they were afraid of Nero? Well, something to do with that. But honestly, Sporus was such an innocent, that you couldn't really hate "her".  That's the point. The entirety of the people felt for Sporus, couldn't really stop Nero, so the did the next best thing and went along with the charade. This caused Sporus no end of misery, but their life was spared.

This is why drag queen storytellers, ma'ams, and bald dudes with bad makeup like Sam Brinton don't pass. Ultimately, what is required is that the general public perceives them as someone they have sympathy for, not weird freaks trying to radically change society's rules so wrong behavior is called right. Nobody likes entitled shits, but demure soft-spoken "women" pass even if the five o' clock shadow is slightly peeking through the makeup. "Try a bit harder next time, girl," is what most of the public thinks, rather than "omg, lock away that pervert!" Of course, that's subjective. You could find a bunch of people who don't sympathize for anyone they can identify as male. That's pretty rough though.

This is why drag queen storytellers, ma'ams, and bald dudes with bad makeup like Sam Brinton don't pass. Ultimately, what is required is that the general public perceives them as someone they have sympathy for, not weird freaks trying to radically change society's rules so wrong behavior is called right. Nobody likes entitled shits, but demure soft-spoken "women" pass even if the five o' clock shadow is slightly peeking through the makeup. "Try a bit harder next time, girl," is what most of the public thinks, rather than "omg, lock away that pervert!" Of course, that's subjective. You could find a bunch of people who don't sympathize for anyone they can identify as male. That's pretty rough though.

Except for Dr Frank N Furter of course.  Massively entitled, enormous perv, bit of a psycho and looked every bit a bloke in fishnets. 

Yeah, I know it’s different, but still interesting there was such an iconic character in the 70s. 

Dr FrankNFurter was a camp gay. That's drag queen. Different standards than a crossdresser. We know drag queens are over the top, because it's part of the performance. Alot of pop culture has subtext about drag.

Most notable, Divine (the inspiration for Little Mermaid's Ursula).

Tucker if for whatever reason you read this thread I am sorry for what it turned into.

He logged out in disgust 5 minutes ago.

Is Tucker Carlson even part of this forum?

Idk but sometimes I get the feeling Mark Levin is.

I am bored arguing with you. You can believe what you want to believe.

Fine.  Then I guess I'll believe crossdressers didn't piss in the street and you'll believe they did. 

https://theconversation.com/how-did-public-bathrooms-get-to-be-separated-by-sex-in-the-first-place-59575

For years, transgender rights activists have argued for their right to use the public restroom that aligns with their gender identity. In recent weeks, this campaign has come to a head.

In March, North Carolina enacted a law requiring that people be allowed to use only the public restroom that corresponds to the sex on their birth certificates. Meanwhile, the White House has taken an opposing position, directing that transgender students be allowed to use the bathroom that matches their gender identity. In response, on May 25, 11 states sued the Obama administration to block the federal government from enforcing the directive.

Some argue that one solution to this impasse is to convert all public restrooms to unisex use, thereby eliminating the need to even consider a patron’s sex. This might strike some as bizarre or drastic. Many assume that separating restrooms based on a person’s biological sex is the “natural” way to determine who should and should not be permitted to use these public spaces.

In fact, laws in the U.S. did not even address the issue of separating public restrooms by sex until the end of the 19th century, when Massachusetts became the first state to enact such a statute. By 1920, over 40 states had adopted similar legislation requiring that public restrooms be separated by sex.

It took a relatively recent social construct to force people my law to recognize something that was never an issue before that.

Meanwhile, the outhouse was invented 500 years ago as an alternative to squatting in the ground and getting bitten by spiders and dying.
Supposedly there used to be gendered outhouses too, but this is not something strictly enforced.

Also? Space Cowboy?

So why did states in the U.S. begin passing such laws? Were legislators merely recognizing natural anatomical differences between men and women?

I’ve studied the history of the legal and cultural norms that require the separation of public bathrooms by sex, and it’s clear that there was nothing so benign about the enactment of these laws. Rather, these laws were rooted in the so-called “separate spheres ideology” of the early-19th century – the idea that, in order to protect the virtue of women, they needed to stay in the home to take care of the children and household chores.

You're defending sexism. Is there risk that some bad apples might abuse loosening gender norms? Maybe so. But it also stems from a dogma that would prefer to tell you to go "make me a sandwich."  To say nothing of crossdressers and trans people literally choosing between urinating and defecating on the ground and being outed to a group of people who could potentially hurt them.

That's right ladies (and gentlemen), the bathrooms you use are based on a variant of "coloreds only" for women. Yes, women and men should be restricted certain spaces, but this is supposed to be about personal safety. Is it?
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/trans-transgender-public-bathrooms-gender-identity-nonbinary_n_67bde68de4b0659288fe1966

After a mug of coffee, I visited the public restroom. I didn’t expect a stranger to yell at me through the flimsy stall door.

“Hello? Are you a male or female?”

I was the only person using the restroom — the kids who had been in there a minute ago had left. I felt this man’s eyes on my sneakers and blue hiking pants under the stall. I was scared this harassment could escalate if I didn’t say something to diffuse the situation. I gulped and called back, “Hello?”

“Oh, you’re a female. My bad.” He sounded reassured by my quavering voice. I heard his footsteps leaving the room. My heart raced as I fumbled with toilet paper, fingers shaking. I felt nauseated.

My voice had immediately identified me as the “female” I didn’t feel myself to be — and all it took was two syllables. But my “female” voice had also saved me from further harassment. Would that man have dragged me out of the stall if I sounded “like a man” or remained quiet? Would he have looked under the stall? Would he have tried to check what was between my legs while my pants were down? Did he have any idea how much of a violation these real and imagined threats were to me?

And why was a man even in the women’s room, questioning me?

No. The author is transmasculine, and can't use the men's room because they might be harassed (guys can be mean), nor use the women's room because she is too butch. And a guy comes into the room that she biologically can use to police her. Wtf?!?

Moreover, she goes on to tell about how a bathroom was out of order, and in California vs Florida, using the same room could have vastly different consequences.

Trump wants to enforce gendered spaces, that's fine, girls shouldn't be changing with boys, men shouldn't be in women's shelters. But restrooms are a basic human right. They shouldn't be gendered in the first place! They should have a stall door, so if someone walks in, they aren't messing with you. That's it.
https://www.worlddryer.com/us/en/about-us/blog/stalls-for-all-benefits-of-unisex-restrooms.html

To achieve happy patrons, hassle-free restroom visits are a must. To attain that, customers need equal restroom access. On average, men have a 20-30 percent greater access to toilets — including urinals.

Adding gender-neutral restrooms to a facility can offer many advantages. They help reduce women’s waiting times from six minutes to less than a minute.

Okay, it's definitely sexism to want creepy dudes to stay out of women's bathrooms.

It's really awesome that you let strangers use your outhouse, though.

Lemme put it this way.

Pulling a gun on someone and shooting them is a crime, no?

But should arresting someone you think might have a gun just on general appearance?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-crime

You have to trust that society will punish ACTUAL crime, not perception.

If a guy in a dress starts whipping it out? That's an actual crime.
If a guy in a dress goes into a restroom, and you are sure that he is going to molest you... that's perception. And while you try to punish that when the guy actually didn't do anything, you also punish...

• Tomboys
• Transgirls who are trying to fit in
• Transboys who are not sure what restroom to use
• Intersex people
• People who have a glandular problem that makes them bearded ladies
• And so on.

You ever heard of the legend of Procrustes?

So, Greek (or was it Roman) legend about this guy who wants everyone to perfectly fit in his bed. So some people get stretched on a rack, others get their legs sawed off. Until Theseus made him abide his own rules. "You're too tall for your own bed!" Are you feminine enough that someone wouldn't decide you didn't fit in this perfect gender binary? Not even a little bit of a tomboy will do.

As a side note, this is generally why I am in favor of crossdressing and not the transgender surgery. It is quite literally stretching out women's "penis" who are too masculine, and chopping off men who are too feminine. Everyone ought to be allowed to express who they are inside, and not have a stifling gender system decide it knows where they belong better than they do.

stop and frisk?

depends on how predatory the policing system is.
do police actively shake down outoftowners for cash, or minorities for fines all in the name of "safety"?
 - yes

no worries bulma, your anti woke ice grabbing up the mexicans with new passed funding.
and you'll still happy about it when you're next?





https://www.thecity.nyc/2026/02/26/nypd-illegal-stop-frisk-monitor/

You are pretending you don't understand what words mean.

You do have a bad habit of that Dave.

They just want to pee! (in your outhouse)

i feel pretty
oh so pretty


are ugly people allowed to want to feel pretty?

Isn't that Gorlock the destroyer?

it is!

stop and frisk?

Officer: I think you have something concealed there. 

depends on how predatory the policing system is.
do police actively shake down outoftowners for cash, or minorities for fines all in the name of "safety"?
 - yes

no worries bulma, your anti woke ice grabbing up the mexicans with new passed funding.
and you'll still happy about it when you're next?

https://www.thecity.nyc/2026/02/26/nypd-illegal-stop-frisk-monitor/

About that.

Illegal immigration is itself a crime. You do not have honest documentation, you have not gone through the correct channels, and you do a disservice to those who have legally immigrated. Do there need to be better means of immigrating? Sure. Apparently, there is a diversity lottery. Wtf, luck decided whether or not you get to apply? But that's fully every reason why this screws over people who worked hard to become citizens. I know you think it shouldn't be a crime, but it is one. And other crimes often result from that crime, which is usually what ICE deports over.

Suppose you got here illegally.
But after the fact, you worked like crazy to make things right, that does count for something.

Undocumented immigrants cannot apply for citizenship directly. However, there are several legal pathways that can lead to obtaining a green card, which is a necessary step toward citizenship.

These include: Family Sponsorship, Asylum, Special Visa, Military Service, and something called Cancel of Removal.

That's right, our government will in fact give illegals a chance, even if I don't think they deserve it. Because effort matters. Good faith matters. If illegals actually do the right thing, ICE has no cause against them.

What about it, Space Cowboy?

Is there anything these two in the middle can do to pass in your book? Can they do community service, or something?
They really need to pee, and there is no way the men's room would be okay with that.

There is a difference between entering illegally (yes, I plan to milk this metaphor) and while there trying to be upstanding, and entering illegally and then committing other crimes. If you cannot respect good faith, you are worse than the people you oppose.

fun fact - you can be a mexican AND a legal resident of usa.


just like you can be a cross dressing tranperson AND NOT be a pedophile rapist.

Is there anything these two in the middle can do to pass in your book?

No.