Why do you support Tucker Carlson?

Quote from: Lorddave on April 23, 2026, 09:45:21 PM

I'm not gonna touch the prison stuff because I agree that we can't put transfemales in male or female prisons.

But.. in 1926, where did cross dressers and transgenders go to the bathroom?  Or are you suggesting that they didn't exist?  Because I have a load of data saying they did.

Maybe dumb question: Why aren't prisons built like skyscrapers? Or like Enel Down, towers into the Abyss, based on severity of crime. If your crime involved something that just takes property without hurting another's body or mind, closest floor to ground, further and further away, the more directly you hurt people.

If we have vertical architecture, we don't need 50 miles, so that each inmate gets their own cell. Or at least, the milder crimes they get their own cell.

Isn't the problem not crossdressed freaks in with women, but that if a crossdresser is stuck with a woman, they will rape someone, while if they were stuck with a man, "Ohhhhh you look like a sexy girl."  More prison space, less of this crap.

Also, if someone says they are trans, you don't just shove them in prison with women, you call their bluff. "Before we put you into women's prison everything has to match the female inmates." If they balk at that, they aren't trans. Throw em back in men's prison and if they get raped by male prisoners, it's justice.

I'm guessing ppl think prior to 1926, everyone just peed in the bushes.

Cost.
Prisons are expensive as hell and building them like skyscrapers is very expensive.  No one wants to pay for such a prison.

Also, according to data, female prisoners rape other prisoners more than any other group.

Quote from: Space Cowgirl on April 23, 2026, 03:54:44 PM

Quote from: Lorddave on April 23, 2026, 02:08:59 PM

Transgenders have been using the bathroom they choose for over a century.  Obama made the issue national and the backlash from republicans was intense. Spacy, here, is a prime example of "Its bad NOW because I know about it."  Hasn't been an issue for 100 years but its an issue now.

This is some insane bullshit. 100 years ago there weren't men dressed like sluts wanking in women's public toilets. 100 years ago there weren't 60yr old men dressed like little girls filming porn in women's toilets. 100 years ago society would have been 100% in favor of arresting men sneaking into women's toilets, and probably would have beat the shit out of the perverts. It hasn't been an issue for 100 years because men pretending to be women weren't using women's public toilets. Just because you can't clock a 6ft tall dude with beard stubble doesn't mean women can't.

Stop and think about the propaganda you swallow unquestioningly. Actually try to see what is happening. Don't worry if in your quest for knowledge someone accuses you of being hateful or obsessed. They don't want you to know what is going on. They want you to think women have nothing to worry about. Meanwhile there's a man who beat his girlfriend to death moved to a women's prison. There's a man who raped his cousin with a broom handle and then stabbed her 40 times moved to a women's prison. There are so many of these violent men pretending to be women, and people like you are the reason they are treated as if they're oppressed. People like you are the reason there is a backlash against gays and lesbians. People like you are the reason there is a backlash against people experiencing body dysphoria. People like you are the reason they can't get proper mental health counseling.

I'm not gonna touch the prison stuff because I agree that we can't put transfemales in male or female prisons.

But.. in 1926, where did cross dressers and transgenders go to the bathroom?  Or are you suggesting that they didn't exist?  Because I have a load of data saying they did.

I don't know what you mean by "transfemales". The men they house in women's prisons aren't even crossdressers. They're not trans anything. They are men who have committed violent crimes, while living their life as men. Most of them didn't claim to be trans until after they were arrested. They are con artists taking advantage of the opportunity to be housed in a nicer prison, where they will have access to more victims.  I think the only thing we agree on is that there are some males who identify as women who need special consideration and accommodation.

Crossdressing is a fetish, a kink, it's not a gender identity and not a sexual orientation. In 1926 crossdressers would have done their crossdressing in secret. Including them in the LGB is a modern thing, like adding all the extra shit onto the acronym. In 2015 or so a trans NGO invented the "transgender umbrella" and they included everyone who doesn't conform to gender stereotypes.



If I were a transsexual I would be pissed that the ma'ams are ruining it. In 1926 there probably were some males who passed as women, even without all the facial surgeries and exogenous hormones. The ones who didn't pass would most likely go about town dressed in men's clothing, because it was safer, just as it was safer to not be openly gay. I don't think everyone should have to go back into the closet, but we need to do something about the ma'ams. We need to do something about the fetishists. Bring back kinkshaming! lol


lorddave, I've seen what you consider relevant data. It's almost always bullshit. Just like the survey of teens in juvenile detention that you think proves female prisoners rape other prisoners more than any other group. You are willing to unquestioningly accept data and studies that confirm your bias. Everyone has a tendency to do this, including me, but I absolutely try to look more thoroughly into issues when they are this divided. I know that most of the studies in this field are unfalsifiable. I know that the researchers working in this field are guilty of P-hacking. I know that every review of the literature has found the evidence to be of low quality, and many of the studies themselves are found to be low quality.  A survey based study, even the one about ROGD, are at the lower quality end of  scientific studies. It doesn't mean they are useless, but it should mean that this is an area that needs further study.

Quote from: Lorddave on April 23, 2026, 09:45:21 PM

Quote from: Space Cowgirl on April 23, 2026, 03:54:44 PM

Quote from: Lorddave on April 23, 2026, 02:08:59 PM

Transgenders have been using the bathroom they choose for over a century.  Obama made the issue national and the backlash from republicans was intense. Spacy, here, is a prime example of "Its bad NOW because I know about it."  Hasn't been an issue for 100 years but its an issue now.

This is some insane bullshit. 100 years ago there weren't men dressed like sluts wanking in women's public toilets. 100 years ago there weren't 60yr old men dressed like little girls filming porn in women's toilets. 100 years ago society would have been 100% in favor of arresting men sneaking into women's toilets, and probably would have beat the shit out of the perverts. It hasn't been an issue for 100 years because men pretending to be women weren't using women's public toilets. Just because you can't clock a 6ft tall dude with beard stubble doesn't mean women can't.

Stop and think about the propaganda you swallow unquestioningly. Actually try to see what is happening. Don't worry if in your quest for knowledge someone accuses you of being hateful or obsessed. They don't want you to know what is going on. They want you to think women have nothing to worry about. Meanwhile there's a man who beat his girlfriend to death moved to a women's prison. There's a man who raped his cousin with a broom handle and then stabbed her 40 times moved to a women's prison. There are so many of these violent men pretending to be women, and people like you are the reason they are treated as if they're oppressed. People like you are the reason there is a backlash against gays and lesbians. People like you are the reason there is a backlash against people experiencing body dysphoria. People like you are the reason they can't get proper mental health counseling.

I'm not gonna touch the prison stuff because I agree that we can't put transfemales in male or female prisons.

But.. in 1926, where did cross dressers and transgenders go to the bathroom?  Or are you suggesting that they didn't exist?  Because I have a load of data saying they did.

I don't know what you mean by "transfemales". The men they house in women's prisons aren't even crossdressers. They're not trans anything. They are men who have committed violent crimes, while living their life as men. Most of them didn't claim to be trans until after they were arrested. They are con artists taking advantage of the opportunity to be housed in a nicer prison, where they will have access to more victims.  I think the only thing we agree on is that there are some males who identify as women who need special consideration and accommodation.

Crossdressing is a fetish, a kink, it's not a gender identity and not a sexual orientation. In 1926 crossdressers would have done their crossdressing in secret. Including them in the LGB is a modern thing, like adding all the extra shit onto the acronym. In 2015 or so a trans NGO invented the "transgender umbrella" and they included everyone who doesn't conform to gender stereotypes.



If I were a transsexual I would be pissed that the ma'ams are ruining it. In 1926 there probably were some males who passed as women, even without all the facial surgeries and exogenous hormones. The ones who didn't pass would most likely go about town dressed in men's clothing, because it was safer, just as it was safer to not be openly gay. I don't think everyone should have to go back into the closet, but we need to do something about the ma'ams. We need to do something about the fetishists. Bring back kinkshaming! lol


lorddave, I've seen what you consider relevant data. It's almost always bullshit. Just like the survey of teens in juvenile detention that you think proves female prisoners rape other prisoners more than any other group. You are willing to unquestioningly accept data and studies that confirm your bias. Everyone has a tendency to do this, including me, but I absolutely try to look more thoroughly into issues when they are this divided. I know that most of the studies in this field are unfalsifiable. I know that the researchers working in this field are guilty of P-hacking. I know that every review of the literature has found the evidence to be of low quality, and many of the studies themselves are found to be low quality.  A survey based study, even the one about ROGD, are at the lower quality end of  scientific studies. It doesn't mean they are useless, but it should mean that this is an area that needs further study.

Please show data on rapes in prisons.  You know, your data, not my super biased and untrusting data even tho I agree that everyone in any prison is likely to be raped; men, women, doesn't matter, they all get raped.  Just a question of who rapes em: guards or inmates.


And transgenders, cross dressers, and the like weren't super secret.  Obviously we didn't have social media back then but there was a whole research institute dedicated to it.  Cross dressing was common enough in the 1920s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_M._Baer <- first transgender female to male.  Was quite open about it.  Wrote a book and everything.

First trans female.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dora_Richter

But answer my question: where did they pee?  Do you think they used the wrong bathroom?  Or did they just not use a public toilet?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_M._Baer <- first transgender female to male.  Was quite open about it. 

That wiki page does not support your assertion.  This was a man born with  hypospadias -  a deformation of the penis.

his experiences growing up female while feeling inside that he was male.

Well he probably felt that way because that's exactly what he was.  Someone who was born male but brought up a girl, no doubt because it was socially easier.

although he was "hormonally and, in accordance with present-day knowledge, genetically male" as well as identifying with the male gender.

So, he was a male.  He was not "first transgender female to male" as he was a male in the first place, spent some of his childhood with his parents saying he was a girl then later identified in line with his biology, which was male.   Nothing to do with transgenderism, apart from pretending to be a girl during some of his childhood. 

Cross dressing was common enough in the 1920s.

In Germany!

Quote from: Lorddave on April 24, 2026, 07:10:30 AM

Cross dressing was common enough in the 1920s.

In Germany!

The Panzy Craze would disagree.  Granted, the US was pretty strict with laws making cross dressing illegal in many cities.  But at least they weren't sent to gas Chambers so... Small favors I guess.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pansy_Craze

maybe we rank the gendered prison based on twink vs bear level of threat

kind of resolves the ol' man jackblack-unco arguemnt about weight classes in boxing

Oh, God.  Don’t remind me.

We both fucked up that thread. Months of stupid argument I should have just let go. 

Hahahahah

Quote from: Lorddave on April 24, 2026, 07:10:30 AM

Cross dressing was common enough in the 1920s.

In Germany!

I remember a lot of “hip queers” in Last Exit to Brooklyn.  Set in the 50s, so a bit later, but I think it’s always been a thing.  Some times more generally acceptable than others.

Clearly not unrelated to sexuality or the whole LGB(T) thing.  Not an exact correlation, but still.

Quote from: Space Cowgirl on April 24, 2026, 08:13:26 AM

Quote from: Lorddave on April 24, 2026, 07:10:30 AM

Cross dressing was common enough in the 1920s.

In Germany!

The Panzy Craze would disagree.  Granted, the US was pretty strict with laws making cross dressing illegal in many cities.  But at least they weren't sent to gas Chambers so... Small favors I guess.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pansy_Craze

This is the second time today you didn't read your own source. lol

During the "craze," drag queens — known as "pansy performers" — experienced a surge in underground popularity, especially in New York City, Chicago, Los Angeles, and San Francisco.

Underground means it was a subculture, separate from mainstream culture. It's like gay ballroom stuff, which no one knew about until RuPaul's drag queen show. None of this was "common" and most people wouldn't have ever heard of it.

Also, pls stop letting wikipedia be your only source of cultural information.

Quote from: bulmabriefs144 on April 24, 2026, 05:02:10 AM

Quote from: Lorddave on April 23, 2026, 09:45:21 PM

I'm not gonna touch the prison stuff because I agree that we can't put transfemales in male or female prisons.

But.. in 1926, where did cross dressers and transgenders go to the bathroom?  Or are you suggesting that they didn't exist?  Because I have a load of data saying they did.

Maybe dumb question: Why aren't prisons built like skyscrapers? Or like Enel Down, towers into the Abyss, based on severity of crime. If your crime involved something that just takes property without hurting another's body or mind, closest floor to ground, further and further away, the more directly you hurt people.

If we have vertical architecture, we don't need 50 miles, so that each inmate gets their own cell. Or at least, the milder crimes they get their own cell.

Isn't the problem not crossdressed freaks in with women, but that if a crossdresser is stuck with a woman, they will rape someone, while if they were stuck with a man, "Ohhhhh you look like a sexy girl."  More prison space, less of this crap.

Also, if someone says they are trans, you don't just shove them in prison with women, you call their bluff. "Before we put you into women's prison everything has to match the female inmates." If they balk at that, they aren't trans. Throw em back in men's prison and if they get raped by male prisoners, it's justice.

I'm guessing ppl think prior to 1926, everyone just peed in the bushes.

Cost.
Prisons are expensive as hell and building them like skyscrapers is very expensive.  No one wants to pay for such a prison.

Also, according to data, female prisoners rape other prisoners more than any other group.

Says you. If we're gonna waste those income taxes you love so much, tax funds on schools haven't worked (we drove past an abandoned school, where they are getting ready to build a new one... and children still cannot read at grade level), and tax funds for solving poverty (you cannot throw money at the problem of taxpayer poverty... that comes from the taxpayers themselves). It seems to me that you could reduce the quantity of prisons, if you just made a few really tall ones that were difficult to escape from. "I'm gonna burrow out the window." "We're on the 107th floor?"

I don't know what you mean by "transfemales". The men they house in women's prisons aren't even crossdressers. They're not trans anything. They are men who have committed violent crimes, while living their life as men. Most of them didn't claim to be trans until after they were arrested.

Transfemale


Transmale (also, wtf)

But you're right. So, the system ought to be run by people who refuse to blindly believe crap. Common sense rules equals "If someone says they are trans, that doesn't give them a free pass."  Putting actual males in prison with women because they say they are? Hard no. Enforce  sexual conformity for prisoners in a cell? Yes.
Prisoner: I'm a woman! Put me in a woman's cell.

Lorena Bobbit: Don't worry. You'll be a woman soon.
What these actually are is psychopaths. Psychopaths say and do anything to avoid responsibility and get what they want. The only way to punish them is to trap them in their own lies, and make them take responsibility for what they say.

---

If I were a transsexual I would be pissed that the ma'ams are ruining it. In 1926 there probably were some males who passed as women, even without all the facial surgeries and exogenous hormones. The ones who didn't pass would most likely go about town dressed in men's clothing, because it was safer, just as it was safer to not be openly gay. I don't think everyone should have to go back into the closet, but we need to do something about the ma'ams. We need to do something about the fetishists. Bring back kinkshaming! lol

I can't agree with you fully there, but even I am disgusted at the ma'ams. I try to mind my own business. I go out shopping or to a restaurant, I try to look good. These people are outright narcissists who get a rise out of drawing attention to their situation, and confront EVERYBODY.  I worked for three years in a library. I did use the ladies' room, but I did not follow anyone into the room. I went to pee, went out and back to work. These people are entitled, and try to push political policy.
In Colorado, there was the story of that baker who wouldn't bake a gay cake, but what they don't tell you is that the people involved had gotten married like NINE STATES away and wanted to buy the cake for the reception. Bullshit, they wanted to make trouble, and they'd heard about this guy. They were awful people who deliberately sought this guy out to bother him. After months and years of grief fighting his case for Supreme Court, he discontinues wedding cakes. Too much trouble, right? He can still make profit off of birthday cakes, and... "Oh, hi! I would like a transgender birthday cake." I kid you not. 

I'm a male crossdresser. Sure, I have a kink. I don't confront anyone, peep on anyone, molest anyone, or insist anyone do anything that betrays their conscience.  And I don't whip out my dick in restroom lobbies. I sit down, shut up, and pee.  Should not I be given more respect than these so-called "real women" who pull this sort of crap because they are on hormones? The ability to behave is of far greater worth than the presence or absence of hormones, or whether or not what you have is really a fetish.

I get what you're saying, but I don't think you are a crossdresser like the ma'ams. If you are able to use women's bathrooms and no one knows, then you have passing privilege. lol

Also, I refuse to use transfemale and transmale. No one can change sex, and it's just more of the euphemism treadmill. It's crazy. 

Quote from: Lorddave on April 24, 2026, 11:00:32 AM

Quote from: Space Cowgirl on April 24, 2026, 08:13:26 AM

Quote from: Lorddave on April 24, 2026, 07:10:30 AM

Cross dressing was common enough in the 1920s.

In Germany!

The Panzy Craze would disagree.  Granted, the US was pretty strict with laws making cross dressing illegal in many cities.  But at least they weren't sent to gas Chambers so... Small favors I guess.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pansy_Craze

This is the second time today you didn't read your own source. lol

Quote

During the "craze," drag queens — known as "pansy performers" — experienced a surge in underground popularity, especially in New York City, Chicago, Los Angeles, and San Francisco.

Underground means it was a subculture, separate from mainstream culture. It's like gay ballroom stuff, which no one knew about until RuPaul's drag queen show. None of this was "common" and most people wouldn't have ever heard of it.

Also, pls stop letting wikipedia be your only source of cultural information.

No, I read my source.
Underground means it's not publically announced, not uncommon.

Would you not consider drinking during prohibition to be underground?  Yet it was VERY common.


But I'll ask again: where did transgender people use the toilet before being trans in public became ok?

If you are able to use women's bathrooms and no one knows, then you have passing privilege. lol

Ok wtf?
You and I have spend dozens of posts arguing on this subject and you have made it VERY clear that men don't belong in women's spaces and now here you are saying it's ok if they can pass?

I get what you're saying, but I don't think you are a crossdresser like the ma'ams. If you are able to use women's bathrooms and no one knows, then you have passing privilege. lol

Also, I refuse to use transfemale and transmale. No one can change sex, and it's just more of the euphemism treadmill. It's crazy.

Yes, you are correct about this.

However, the problem of gendered restroom restrictions? Some biological women do not have "passing privilege." Some biological women have hirsutism (hairiness). Some have an enlarged clitoris that is practically a penis. Some are weirdly muscular or look like fat men. Some are tall and thin, with no feminine curves. As long as men's and women's restrooms exist, they will be an instrument of oppression against these women.

That's fine. I myself quit the idea of transition when a doctor explained it, and I realized I was looking at a fancy castration.

If somehow they could swap out parts like in that Franken Fran chapter, and some girl was okay with my parts,
https://mangadex.org/chapter/ffe0e364-dc88-4918-b017-7283bbee27bf
I'd consider that a real transition. But that's kinda mad science, so... yeah, you're mostly right there.

In the past trans and crossdressing men would have pissed with other males, or on the side of the road, or behind a building. Publicly available toilets weren't common even in major cities, but they did begin to exist sometime in the 1800s.  Crossdressers wouldn't be living their fetish 24/7, and someone with dysphoria would have kept it a secret, because there were few places in the world they would have been accepted. The men who have these conditions merely had to put on men's clothing to function normally in society.

Drinking alcohol in secret did not have the same social stigma as being gay or "trans". These underground parties were underground and not common at all. It is really strange to think that they were. It's part of the rewriting of history the TQ love to do. They pretend a trans woman threw the first brick at Stonewall, the leftish lap it up and ignore the words of the person who is given credit for throwing the brick.

I get what you're saying, but I don't think you are a crossdresser like the ma'ams. If you are able to use women's bathrooms and no one knows, then you have passing privilege. lol

Also, I refuse to use transfemale and transmale. No one can change sex, and it's just more of the euphemism treadmill. It's crazy.

I don’t see a problem with transmale or transfemale.  The distinction between male and female is in the trans part.

One that does get me is “assigned gender”.  That’s some real nonsense.  No one decides if you’re going to be a boy or a girl on a whim, they check to see which bits you have.  The idea of “gender fluidity” is quite bullshitty as well.  It’s fine to be a boy who likes girly stuff or a girl who likes blokey stuff.  Not need to say that not fitting into gender stereotypes makes you somewhere in between.

Biological sex is a real thing, not some kind of social construction.  Women’s rights and safety do matter.

On the other hand, trans people should also have rights and safety.  They are a vulnerable group often subject to harassment, abuse and sometimes violence.  They aren’t universally accepted by society.

Some trans activist groups seem to have pushed some bullshit, and certainly some dickheads on the internet are super abusive at anyone questioning it.  They probably don’t represent trans people in general.  I think there’s been a tendency for many liberals to just assume they were fighting the good fight and overlook all the shit. 

Meanwhile there’s been some pretty ugly stuff coming from the other side too.  It would be good to make the whole debate less of a shit fight and try to work out the issues.

BTW, who are the ma'am's?  I tried looking it up, but the answers all seemed to be about why people say it so much on British TV shows.

Incorect on "assigned"

Either youre of the theist camp where God or the Universe assignsd you
Or the libertarian who rejects the govt  birthcertificate assigning

But
There is well documented where genitalitial was hermaphroic and the doctornwiuls cut off onenor ask the parents which set they would like.
Literal assignment.

In the past trans and crossdressing men would have pissed with other males, or on the side of the road, or behind a building. Publicly available toilets weren't common even in major cities, but they did begin to exist sometime in the 1800s.  Crossdressers wouldn't be living their fetish 24/7, and someone with dysphoria would have kept it a secret, because there were few places in the world they would have been accepted. The men who have these conditions merely had to put on men's clothing to function normally in society.

Given that I was more referring to the 1920s, public toilets definitely existed by then so I guess you're saying a male who acted and presented themselves as a female, would have used the female toilets, yes?  Or would they use the male toilets?  Or no toilet?
Also, ask Bulma if he does his cross dressing 24/7. 
Also also: A kink requires sexual gratification for it to be a kink.  I doubt Bumla gets sexual gratification when he goes out dressed as a woman.  So no, its not a kink.

Drinking alcohol in secret did not have the same social stigma as being gay or "trans". These underground parties were underground and not common at all. It is really strange to think that they were. It's part of the rewriting of history the TQ love to do. They pretend a trans woman threw the first brick at Stonewall, the leftish lap it up and ignore the words of the person who is given credit for throwing the brick.

Oh I'm not saying it wasn't socially stygmatized.  But you seem to think common and public are the same thing. 
Common, in my book, is something that happens often enough that history remembers what its called and the government has to make laws to stop it.

But as you say, the actual number was unknown because it was well hidden.  Meaning, for 100 years, public bathrooms have had transgender people and cross dressers in them. 

Or do you disagree with that?

Incorect on "assigned"

Either youre of the theist camp where God or the Universe assignsd you
Or the libertarian who rejects the govt  birthcertificate assigning

But
There is well documented where genitalitial was hermaphroic and the doctornwiuls cut off onenor ask the parents which set they would like.
Literal assignment.

I don’t think it’s very helpful to resort to examples of rare hermaphroditic conditions and subsequent medical decisions.

The “assigned gender” thing is now pretty much standard to refer to biological or birth sex as determined by doctors, midwives, etc. in the lefty media (who I often agree with on other things).  As opposed to the “affirmed gender”.

I just think it’s kind of bullshitty language.  As if someone just decides if you’re a boy or girl.

If you get a bunch of tests done in hospital, and you are diagnosed with cancer, no one would ever say you’ve been “assigned” cancer.  That would make them the world’s worst healthcare service.

Doctors actually often do that sorta thing.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11356455/

It's called "normalization." It could be the intersex person is even fertile before they meddle, but afterwards, they usually aren't.

One that does get me is “assigned gender”.  That’s some real nonsense.  No one decides if you’re going to be a boy or a girl on a whim, they check to see which bits you have.  The idea of “gender fluidity” is quite bullshitty as well.  It’s fine to be a boy who likes girly stuff or a girl who likes blokey stuff.  Not need to say that not fitting into gender stereotypes makes you somewhere in between.

Biological sex is a real thing, not some kind of social construction.  Women’s rights and safety do matter.

On the other hand, trans people should also have rights and safety.  They are a vulnerable group often subject to harassment, abuse and sometimes violence.  They aren’t universally accepted by society.

Unisex bathrooms are indeed the best way of solving this problem. Women lose the "They're invading our spaces argument," as men, women, and everything in between sits in a stall and doesn't bother anyone or else, and the transgender people can no longer make a fuss either. One restroom to rule them all...

Also also: A kink requires sexual gratification for it to be a kink.  I doubt Bumla gets sexual gratification when he goes out dressed as a woman.  So no, its not a kink.

Crossdressers really come in about four flavors.

1. Drag queens (no sexual component, straight or gay men that do this because of performative art, such as vaudeville or cabaret)
2. Autogynophiles (basically, you like yourself as a woman, is that the word means; there's some kink here) 
3. Nonbinary (A sort of non-fixed expression, similar to how women wear a dress or jeans; unfortunately, society doesn't have safe spaces for men to just explore their look without getting beat up by other men, so they use women's spaces)
4. Transgender (Actually want to surgically change themselves; usually gay)   

---

5. Fake crossdressers (basically, these are the assholes who give me a headache. They aren't transgender, they're not crossdressers, they're asshole psycho types that want to violate women)

I would be lying if I said there is no sexual kink to this, but it's somewhere between #2 & #3. I am decidedly not interested in surgery. My dream is that one day, a girl that I like will actually like this side of me. And I sometimes fantasize at home about a somewhat rough girl having her way with me.  But yeah, there is a time and a place for such things, and out in public is not it. Just is many people has sex at home or in a hotel, but not in a subway.

BTW, who are the ma'am's?  I tried looking it up, but the answers all seemed to be about why people say it so much on British TV shows.

The ma'ams are the ones who really do not pass well as women, who overcompensate for this fact. "YOU CALLED ME SIR?!? IT'S MA'AM!!! (Proceeds to create a scene)."

Basically this. 

Quote from: Space Cowgirl on April 25, 2026, 07:32:59 AM

In the past trans and crossdressing men would have pissed with other males, or on the side of the road, or behind a building. Publicly available toilets weren't common even in major cities, but they did begin to exist sometime in the 1800s.  Crossdressers wouldn't be living their fetish 24/7, and someone with dysphoria would have kept it a secret, because there were few places in the world they would have been accepted. The men who have these conditions merely had to put on men's clothing to function normally in society.

Given that I was more referring to the 1920s, public toilets definitely existed by then so I guess you're saying a male who acted and presented themselves as a female, would have used the female toilets, yes?  Or would they use the male toilets?  Or no toilet?
Also, ask Bulma if he does his cross dressing 24/7. 
Also also: A kink requires sexual gratification for it to be a kink.  I doubt Bumla gets sexual gratification when he goes out dressed as a woman.  So no, its not a kink.

Quote

Drinking alcohol in secret did not have the same social stigma as being gay or "trans". These underground parties were underground and not common at all. It is really strange to think that they were. It's part of the rewriting of history the TQ love to do. They pretend a trans woman threw the first brick at Stonewall, the leftish lap it up and ignore the words of the person who is given credit for throwing the brick.

Oh I'm not saying it wasn't socially stygmatized.  But you seem to think common and public are the same thing. 
Common, in my book, is something that happens often enough that history remembers what its called and the government has to make laws to stop it.

But as you say, the actual number was unknown because it was well hidden.  Meaning, for 100 years, public bathrooms have had transgender people and cross dressers in them. 

Or do you disagree with that?

I do disagree that transgenders and crossdressers were using women's public toilets. You seem to think that they are unclockable and that the world was teeming with them prior to about 2015. In reality there are very few men who look so much like a woman that no one notices. Especially before cosmetic surgeries. Most crossdressers are hairy old men, they would have gone about their business in their men's clothing in the 1920s and saved the fetish stuff for the clubs, or secretly wore underwear they stole from their wives and daughters.

It doesn't matter if bulma performs womanface 24/7 now. We live in a different society.

I posted a video of the ma'am upthread somewhere. Look up Gamestop ma'am.

Quote from: Lorddave on April 25, 2026, 11:50:52 AM

Quote from: Space Cowgirl on April 25, 2026, 07:32:59 AM

In the past trans and crossdressing men would have pissed with other males, or on the side of the road, or behind a building. Publicly available toilets weren't common even in major cities, but they did begin to exist sometime in the 1800s.  Crossdressers wouldn't be living their fetish 24/7, and someone with dysphoria would have kept it a secret, because there were few places in the world they would have been accepted. The men who have these conditions merely had to put on men's clothing to function normally in society.

Given that I was more referring to the 1920s, public toilets definitely existed by then so I guess you're saying a male who acted and presented themselves as a female, would have used the female toilets, yes?  Or would they use the male toilets?  Or no toilet?
Also, ask Bulma if he does his cross dressing 24/7. 
Also also: A kink requires sexual gratification for it to be a kink.  I doubt Bumla gets sexual gratification when he goes out dressed as a woman.  So no, its not a kink.

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Drinking alcohol in secret did not have the same social stigma as being gay or "trans". These underground parties were underground and not common at all. It is really strange to think that they were. It's part of the rewriting of history the TQ love to do. They pretend a trans woman threw the first brick at Stonewall, the leftish lap it up and ignore the words of the person who is given credit for throwing the brick.

Oh I'm not saying it wasn't socially stygmatized.  But you seem to think common and public are the same thing. 
Common, in my book, is something that happens often enough that history remembers what its called and the government has to make laws to stop it.

But as you say, the actual number was unknown because it was well hidden.  Meaning, for 100 years, public bathrooms have had transgender people and cross dressers in them. 

Or do you disagree with that?

I do disagree that transgenders and crossdressers were using women's public toilets. You seem to think that they are unclockable and that the world was teeming with them prior to about 2015. In reality there are very few men who look so much like a woman that no one notices. Especially before cosmetic surgeries. Most crossdressers are hairy old men, they would have gone about their business in their men's clothing in the 1920s and saved the fetish stuff for the clubs, or secretly wore underwear they stole from their wives and daughters.

It doesn't matter if bulma performs womanface 24/7 now. We live in a different society.

I posted a video of the ma'am upthread somewhere. Look up Gamestop ma'am.

Ahh, I see.
Well, I think you're wrong.  In don't think 2015 had some kind of magical effect where transgenders and cross dressers suddenly existed.  Do you think people weren't gay until the 90s too?

Well, I think you are retartedly making up a strawman now. In what part of my post did I say that transgenders and crossdressers didn't exist until 2015? The explosion in "identifying as" happened around 2015. The media started celebrating the stunning and brave around that time. Sissy porn exploded around that time. There are a lot more crossdressers and AGPs now than there were in the past because those are fetishes. You aren't born with a fetish, it is cultivated somehow, and I'd say the reasons probably vary, but porn plays a major role. I believe there are a very tiny percentage of people with "gender dysphoria" and that percentage of the population probably hasn't changed much over time. The trans rights movement has put all these people in the same box, when they shouldn't have.

I believe the correct term for the “ma’am” in above video is actually “dickhead”.

Drag queens can be rude as fuck, but it’s always with a nod and a wink, and just part of the performance.  Tend to be lovely (usually gay) guys when off duty, so to speak.

The transwomen I knew for bit in early 00s all seemed decent.  They just wanted to live as women and most seemed more into guys.  They’d have all passed as biological women without really scrutinising them closely and some I think you’d still struggle to tell.  They all just used the ladies and no one seemed to notice or care.

I don’t know how much has really changed? 

I’ve literally never seen anyone like the dickhead above.  Not in my local town, not in nights out in the big smoke, not at music festivals where everyone is encouraged to look and be as ridiculous as possible.

I’ve seen plenty of other forms of dickheadedness of course. Sometimes men, sometimes women.

Is it really common? Are this lot everywhere in the US now?  Or is everyone judging on the worst examples from the internet?  Genuine question, because I just don’t see it out in the real world.

Well, I think you are retartedly making up a strawman now. In what part of my post did I say that transgenders and crossdressers didn't exist until 2015?

Here.

You seem to think that they are unclockable and that the world was teeming with them prior to about 2015. In reality there are very few men who look so much like a woman that no one notices. Especially before cosmetic surgeries. Most crossdressers are hairy old men, they would have gone about their business in their men's clothing in the 1920s and saved the fetish stuff for the clubs, or secretly wore underwear they stole from their wives and daughters.

That's how I interpreted this: that only fetish people wore other gender clothes and only on private and no transgenders, apparently.  You also, oddly, said no transgenders used other bathrooms, which either means you think they didn't exist or that they never went out in public as trans presenting.

The explosion in "identifying as" happened around 2015. The media started celebrating the stunning and brave around that time. Sissy porn exploded around that time. There are a lot more crossdressers and AGPs now than there were in the past because those are fetishes. You aren't born with a fetish, it is cultivated somehow, and I'd say the reasons probably vary, but porn plays a major role. I believe there are a very tiny percentage of people with "gender dysphoria" and that percentage of the population probably hasn't changed much over time. The trans rights movement has put all these people in the same box, when they shouldn't have.

If the number of those with gender dysphoria was the same, then you must admit that transgenders have been around and using the "wrong" toilet all this time.  Or that they never went out in public.  Or never dressed as the opposite sex.

Also, Bulma doesn't seem to call it a fetish.  I'm gonna take his word over yours.

And yes, sissy port exposed because... People stopped being killed (metaphorically speaking) for it.
Same reason gay porn exposed in the early 2000s: being gay stopped being a "welp, you're gonna suffer now".  Remember when being gay was a career killer?  When gay men had marriages with women just to not be seen as gay?  Remember those day?

Same thing.

These people always existed and likely in similar percentages.  They just weren't allowed by society for them to know about it.

Existing and using the wrong toilet are not the same thing. If I never use a public toilet, I still exist. If a crossdressing male wears men's clothes while he is out in town, but crossdresses in secret, he still exists. If someone with gender dyphoria wears the clothes expected of their sex they still exist. Clothes do not make someone exist or not exist. Toilets do not make someone exist or not exist. You are making an extremely nonsensical argument. No one is saying that people who identify as the sex they are not do not exist.

When were people killed for making sissy porn? It exploded because men became inured to regular old porn and began seeking out more extreme and bizarre forms of porn to wank to. It exploded because internet porn became weirder and weirder. I hope you haven't been watching it, but it would explain a lot.

People did not perform their fetishes in public until very recently.

There's no way this many people were secretly trans and nonbinary in the past. It is a fad and a social contagion.

I don’t know how much has really changed? 

What changed is that anyone who says they are a woman is a woman. It opened the floodgates for the dickheads to take over the movement.

I have no doubt that there have been trans women who pass and used the women's facilities without causing problems, but I doubt that they were infiltrating breast feeding support groups (for example), or offering to help girls use tampons, or just so many creepy things. Society wasn't allowing men to claim they are women after they are arrested for raping a baby to death, and then housing them in women's prisons. Society didn't try to tell women that being a woman is just a feeling and not a material reality. 

There's some really nasty shit happening, and when women point it out we are regularly surprised that normal men just don't know about it. Or think we're mad at trans people, or are bigots.

Not to mention that the number of teen girls identifying as trans has more than doubled since 2017.

I believe the correct term for the “ma’am” in above video is actually “dickhead”.

Drag queens can be rude as fuck, but it’s always with a nod and a wink, and just part of the performance.  Tend to be lovely (usually gay) guys when off duty, so to speak.

The transwomen I knew for bit in early 00s all seemed decent.  They just wanted to live as women and most seemed more into guys.  They’d have all passed as biological women without really scrutinising them closely and some I think you’d still struggle to tell.  They all just used the ladies and no one seemed to notice or care.

I don’t know how much has really changed? 

I’ve literally never seen anyone like the dickhead above.  Not in my local town, not in nights out in the big smoke, not at music festivals where everyone is encouraged to look and be as ridiculous as possible.

I’ve seen plenty of other forms of dickheadedness of course. Sometimes men, sometimes women.

Is it really common? Are this lot everywhere in the US now?  Or is everyone judging on the worst examples from the internet?  Genuine question, because I just don’t see it out in the real world.

What changed is that most transgender people (or crossdressers) preferred to mind their own business, but the radical Marxists like to use people as shields. Gamergate was about the woke trying to co-opt gamers into their crap, now they've come for the femboys. Only now alot of femboys are conservative Trump voters, specifically because they are tired of being told "You can't be Christian and you can't vote to the right."  Maybe says you, but excuse me if I like the guy. "(blubbers) But he's gonna take away your rights~!!!" How about you leave it to me to decide whether I value my rights enough to fight for them. Now if you excuse me, I have a couple dozen ma'ams to beat up for creating pushback that wouldn't excuse before them.

Existing and using the wrong toilet are not the same thing. If I never use a public toilet, I still exist. If a crossdressing male wears men's clothes while he is out in town, but crossdresses in secret, he still exists. If someone with gender dyphoria wears the clothes expected of their sex they still exist. Clothes do not make someone exist or not exist. Toilets do not make someone exist or not exist. You are making an extremely nonsensical argument. No one is saying that people who identify as the sex they are not do not exist.

When were people killed for making sissy porn? It exploded because men became inured to regular old porn and began seeking out more extreme and bizarre forms of porn to wank to. It exploded because internet porn became weirder and weirder. I hope you haven't been watching it, but it would explain a lot.

People did not perform their fetishes in public until very recently.

There's no way this many people were secretly trans and nonbinary in the past. It is a fad and a social contagion.

And I'm disagreeing that they simply didn't exist as trans or crossdressers in public.  Plenty of evidence of people doing it.  Organizations promoting it.

And I said killed metaphorically as in "Yeah so we found out you're a sissy... so we're firing you and blacklisting you from any job in this city." kinda killed.  Like if you were gay in the 80s and people found out: Your social life was over.  Done.  Dead.  That's what I mean.

So my argument is thus:

They existed.
They did it publicly but did not announce it.
Therefore, some of them used public toilets.

Why you seem to think that all transgender females are hairy men who could never pass without surgery is beyond me.  Or transgender men are feminine looking and impossible to pass as men without surgery.

What in the world?

If there's plenty of evidence that they were out publicly and organizations promoting it, why can't you provide a source. I am even trying to find sources for you. There's just no evidence that people were openly crossdressing (which isn't trans) or that outside of Germany people were accepting of transitioning, or that outside of Germany there were any orgs promoting it. It was a subculture.

You have reading comprehension issues. Who was talking about finding out someone is a "sissy"? Sissy porn is forced feminization porn. It's fetish porn. You are watching fetish porn. lol

Your argument doesn't exist!
No where in this conversation did I say they didn't exist.
You have no evidence of this public fetish performance.
I'm sure they did use public toilets, but the crossdressers weren't in the women's, and only the stealthiest most passing transsexuals would have used the women's.

Transgender females are female and therefore not hairy men in drag. Female = sex, male = sex.

Trans men pass much more easily if they're taking testosterone, because exogenous testosterone is much more powerful than estrogen. If you'd been actually reading and comprehending you would have seen that I said there are some men who pass. Most of them don't. Even the ones you think are hot probably don't irl. If it was so easy for men to pass as women they wouldn't have invented facial feminization surgery, or shaving the adam's apple, etc.