Experiment ideas to prove Denpressure?

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sceptimatic

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Re: Experiment ideas to prove Denpressure?
« Reply #210 on: May 03, 2023, 07:42:42 AM »

As I said before, the atmosphere can never be static.

And you think your eyes can see whether the atmosphere is being compressed and decompressed against any dense mass.

Which has nothing to do with a ball dropped in a column of air showing no downward current flow proving the ball isn’t pushed down shown in the drag and area of low pressure behind the ball as it falls.
It doesn't need a downward current flow. The ball itself placed into it creates the displacement and the resulting spring back down through the resistance of the atmosphere below, aided by what is around the ball from above.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Experiment ideas to prove Denpressure?
« Reply #211 on: May 03, 2023, 07:59:12 AM »

The atmosphere is always needed. Nothing works unless there is an atmosphere.

Except liquid filled heat exchangers.
And what is needed to exchange the heat?

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
Liquid filled hydraulics.
What about them?

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
Electric driven screws.
Explain.
Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
Electric motors.
Explain.
Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
Fuel cells.
Explain.
Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
Nuclear fission.
Fiction.
Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
Magnets.
Explain.
Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
Electromagnetic radiation.
Explain.

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
The reaction of thermite.
Explain.
Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
The reaction of rocket fuel with its own oxidizer.
Explain.

Quote
Burning Model Rocket Motor In Liquid Nitrogen - 4K Slow Motion



Explain.

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
When influenced by gravity, things don’t need atmosphere to fall as proven by the fact objects fall faster in a vacuum chamber where air pressure and air resistance is made negligible.
Negligible as in what?
Let's see if I can get what you're saying.

If two balls of different densities are dropped from the same height and they appear to hit the floor at the same time but one possibly could be hitting the floor 1/1 millionth of a second sooner...is this negligible to you?

Because measurement for argument's sake should offer concrete proof, not a cast-aside idea of something being negligible.

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
  Where the number of gas molecules is made negligible against the mass of a lead ball. 
Never.

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
If there can’t be free space, how does a vacuum pump work and a vacuum created?
Lower pressure. That's all it is.


Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
  Are you saying the remaining gas molecules grow in size as the air is pumped out of the chamber.
They expand out of their layers and lose them becoming less dense than what was compressed out by that expansion.


Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
Then what happens if you take the vacuum chamber to near absolute zero and the gases turn to liquid? 

Explain how this happens so I know what you're getting at.

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DataOverFlow2022

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Re: Experiment ideas to prove Denpressure?
« Reply #212 on: May 03, 2023, 09:06:44 AM »

]It doesn't need a downward current flow. The ball itself placed into it creates the displacement and the resulting spring back down through the resistance of the atmosphere below, aided by what is around the ball from above.

Most things in fluid power to be moved must be moved by the fluid displacement.

You claim pressure pushes the ball down.



You have not addressed what is claimed about what is actually recorded.

Which has nothing to do with a ball dropped in a column of air showing no downward current flow proving the ball isn’t pushed down shown in the drag and area of low pressure behind the ball as it falls.


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DataOverFlow2022

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Re: Experiment ideas to prove Denpressure?
« Reply #213 on: May 03, 2023, 09:08:53 AM »

The atmosphere is always needed. Nothing works unless there is an atmosphere.

Except liquid filled heat exchangers.
And what is needed to exchange the heat?

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
Liquid filled hydraulics.
What about them?

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
Electric driven screws.
Explain.
Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
Electric motors.
Explain.
Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
Fuel cells.
Explain.
Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
Nuclear fission.
Fiction.
Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
Magnets.
Explain.
Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
Electromagnetic radiation.
Explain.

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
The reaction of thermite.
Explain.
Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
The reaction of rocket fuel with its own oxidizer.
Explain.

Quote
Burning Model Rocket Motor In Liquid Nitrogen - 4K Slow Motion



Explain.


No.  You explain your claim why this listed items need atmosphere.



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DataOverFlow2022

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Re: Experiment ideas to prove Denpressure?
« Reply #214 on: May 03, 2023, 09:17:34 AM »

If two balls of different densities are dropped from the same height and they appear to hit the floor at the same time but one possibly could be hitting the floor 1/1 millionth of a second sooner...is this negligible to you?


Accuracy of analysis that can be averaged out to show consistency has nothing to do with you not being able to answer why a steel ball 20 times more dense than a ping pong ball (reality probably being the steel ball 100 times more dense) doesn’t fall at a rate twenty times faster than the ping pong ball.



It’s quite acceptable the steel ball might drop a fraction of a second a few times faster with the ping pong ball falling a few times a fraction of a second faster.

You by no means have shown when air resistance is made negligible the steel ball will drop at a faster rate.  And you can’t show nor made any effort to model with den pressure to predict how much faster the steel ball should drop constantly in your delusion.  And at what point it should be noticeable.

Your den-pressure is useless as a model and a lie. 
« Last Edit: May 03, 2023, 09:19:05 AM by DataOverFlow2022 »

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sceptimatic

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Re: Experiment ideas to prove Denpressure?
« Reply #215 on: May 03, 2023, 09:48:12 AM »

]It doesn't need a downward current flow. The ball itself placed into it creates the displacement and the resulting spring back down through the resistance of the atmosphere below, aided by what is around the ball from above.

Most things in fluid power to be moved must be moved by the fluid displacement.

You claim pressure pushes the ball down.



You have not addressed what is claimed about what is actually recorded.

Which has nothing to do with a ball dropped in a column of air showing no downward current flow proving the ball isn’t pushed down shown in the drag and area of low pressure behind the ball as it falls.
You're offering nothing here.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Experiment ideas to prove Denpressure?
« Reply #216 on: May 03, 2023, 09:49:06 AM »

The atmosphere is always needed. Nothing works unless there is an atmosphere.

Except liquid filled heat exchangers.
And what is needed to exchange the heat?

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
Liquid filled hydraulics.
What about them?

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
Electric driven screws.
Explain.
Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
Electric motors.
Explain.
Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
Fuel cells.
Explain.
Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
Nuclear fission.
Fiction.
Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
Magnets.
Explain.
Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
Electromagnetic radiation.
Explain.

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
The reaction of thermite.
Explain.
Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
The reaction of rocket fuel with its own oxidizer.
Explain.

Quote
Burning Model Rocket Motor In Liquid Nitrogen - 4K Slow Motion



Explain.


No.  You explain your claim why this listed items need atmosphere.
If you can't copy and paste you have nothing.
Never mind.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Experiment ideas to prove Denpressure?
« Reply #217 on: May 03, 2023, 09:50:09 AM »
It’s quite acceptable the steel ball might drop a fraction of a second a few times faster with the ping pong ball falling a few times a fraction of a second faster.


And that's all you needed to admit.

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DataOverFlow2022

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Re: Experiment ideas to prove Denpressure?
« Reply #218 on: May 03, 2023, 10:34:56 AM »

]It doesn't need a downward current flow. The ball itself placed into it creates the displacement and the resulting spring back down through the resistance of the atmosphere below, aided by what is around the ball from above.

Most things in fluid power to be moved must be moved by the fluid displacement.

You claim pressure pushes the ball down.



You have not addressed what is claimed about what is actually recorded.

Which has nothing to do with a ball dropped in a column of air showing no downward current flow proving the ball isn’t pushed down shown in the drag and area of low pressure behind the ball as it falls.
You're offering nothing here.

You mean actual evidence that shows the drag of the ball and supports in no way atmosphere pushing the ball down.

I know.  It’s confusing to you.  It’s not your BS opinion. 

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DataOverFlow2022

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Re: Experiment ideas to prove Denpressure?
« Reply #219 on: May 03, 2023, 10:36:16 AM »

The atmosphere is always needed. Nothing works unless there is an atmosphere.

Except liquid filled heat exchangers.
And what is needed to exchange the heat?

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
Liquid filled hydraulics.
What about them?

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
Electric driven screws.
Explain.
Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
Electric motors.
Explain.
Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
Fuel cells.
Explain.
Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
Nuclear fission.
Fiction.
Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
Magnets.
Explain.
Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
Electromagnetic radiation.
Explain.

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
The reaction of thermite.
Explain.
Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
The reaction of rocket fuel with its own oxidizer.
Explain.

Quote
Burning Model Rocket Motor In Liquid Nitrogen - 4K Slow Motion



Explain.


No.  You explain your claim why this listed items need atmosphere.
If you can't copy and paste you have nothing.
Never mind.

Ok.

Why would thermite need atmosphere to carry out its reaction. 

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DataOverFlow2022

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Re: Experiment ideas to prove Denpressure?
« Reply #220 on: May 03, 2023, 10:41:14 AM »

And that's all you needed to admit.

Which has what to do with you have in no way shown when air resistance is made negligible objects of different densities drop at different rate.

And your complete and utter failure to show density changes the rate at which objects fall when air resistance is made negligible. 

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Smoke Machine

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Re: Experiment ideas to prove Denpressure?
« Reply #221 on: May 03, 2023, 02:06:54 PM »

And that's all you needed to admit.

Which has what to do with you have in no way shown when air resistance is made negligible objects of different densities drop at different rate.

And your complete and utter failure to show density changes the rate at which objects fall when air resistance is made negligible.

Why are you arguing real science with a real science denier? Sceptimatic wouldn't know the difference between the two ends of a test tube, and lives in a world of make believe.
For the overall shape of Earth to be flat, requires billions of people and billions of pieces of information about Earth to be wrong. Do the maths.

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DataOverFlow2022

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Re: Experiment ideas to prove Denpressure?
« Reply #222 on: May 03, 2023, 02:33:51 PM »

And that's all you needed to admit.

Which has what to do with you have in no way shown when air resistance is made negligible objects of different densities drop at different rate.

And your complete and utter failure to show density changes the rate at which objects fall when air resistance is made negligible.

Why are you arguing real science with a real science denier? Sceptimatic wouldn't know the difference between the two ends of a test tube, and lives in a world of make believe.

It’s better than watching real housewives? 

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JackBlack

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Re: Experiment ideas to prove Denpressure?
« Reply #223 on: May 03, 2023, 02:39:07 PM »
Everything has to affect something. Nothing can be independent in an overall system.
This is not what closed means.

That is why I asked you for a definition, which you refused to provide.

You may as well be saying nothing can be a sedjkiiyuksjrb system. It makes just as much sense coming from you.

There can never ever be free space. It cannot exist as anything. It's fictional.
Again, if you wish to assert this crap, and have anyone take it seriously, you need to address the issue.
I just gave you a massive problem for that delusional crap of yours, and only response is to just make the same pathetic assertion, and then play directly after. And combined with your pathetic assertion that it is just used for space. NO! It isn't. It is used for everyday things on Earth, things you are exposed to, things you can't explain. Just as the very question asked.

I have explained it quite well.
The properties of liquids and gases are drastically different.
This is because in the liquid phase, there is very minimal free space. The molecules are "touching" and interacting quite strongly.
This also means it is pretty much incompressible as the compression is just eliminating that free space.

Gases are drastically different. They are predominately free space. The molecules are not touching and do not interact significantly (except for when they collide and bounce off each other).
This means they are quite compressible, as there is plenty of free space to be removed.

But more importantly for this, there is a phase boundary between them.
You have a large amount of liquid, with a small amount of gas above it.
The gas above contains the comparably small amount of molecules with enough energy to overcome the attraction (I know, another thing you hate and want to claim can't exist) and break away from the bulk, with lots of free space in between.
This means the liquid, for the most part, stays put and doesn't reach the pump.

If there was no free space, and gas was just expanded molecules to free the space then liquid and gas should behave identically.
There should be no clear phase boundary.
That is you put liquid water in a chamber, and started removing the air, the water should simply expand to fill the space.
This means the water should expand and reach the pump.
Your delusional fantasy fails to match reality.

The mass is the cause of the transfer of energy.
Which in no way means the mass is transferred.

Explain it.
Stop playing dumb.
Just what part do you fail to understand?
Mass, i.e. matter, e.g. molecules.
Transfer, move between location. For the purpose of this discussion it is moving from the inside of the system to the outside, or from the  outside to the inside.

These are very basic English words.
If you can't understand them, you don't understand English.

No we can't.
Repeating the same pathetic assertions wont help you.
Likewise, your continued pathetic appeal to a perfect vacuum wont help you.

No one is saying the vacuum has to be perfect.
But what we can do is vary the amount of air in a container and see how that affects radiative processes, and when you do, you observe that the air interferes.

Dump what into the water and what are you using to do that?
THE HEAT!
Again, stop playing dumb.
The air is not needed, no matter how much you want to pretend it is.

We can take a hot object, and dump it in water, and have the heat transfer from the object to the water. We do not need the air to do that.
In fact, if we surround the object in a layer of air, the energy transfer is far slower. The air hinders transfer of energy in this case.

Likewise, we can use a heatsink on something like a CPU. In order to get the best heat transfer, we use thermal paste (or something similar). This is to provide a malleable high thermal conductivity contact. If you don't, and instead you let air get in, you significantly reduce the ability to transfer heat.

Again, your delusional BS goes against so much science it isn't funny.
Yet you claim to have respect for scientists when you just completely reject so much that they have shown because it doesn't fit into your delusional garbage?

Explain what a photon is and how it radiates away energy.
A photon is a packet of energy with a particular frequency. It is electromagnetic radiation.
It is the energy that is radiated away.

If you want to play dumb, I can as well. What is a molecule? What is a vibration? What do you mean the air is needed?

The atmosphere is the only way. I stand by what I said.
You can stand by it all you want. The evidence shows your claim is pure BS.

Liquid cooling requires something else. Can you guess what it is?
A source of heat, i.e. the CPU, and somewhere to dump it. This is COMMONLY the atmosphere, but it is not necessarily the atmosphere.
The atmosphere is not needed.

And again, this is a deflection.
The fact that liquid cooling works at all demonstrates the atmosphere is not needed. It demonstrates that things other than the atmosphere can transfer energy.
Again, if your delusional BS was true, it wouldn't be a liquid cooler, it would be an atmospheric cooler, which just moved around the atmosphere. i.e. a fan, to directly expose the silicon of the CPU to the air.

You can't describe what a pulling force is.
I can, and have.
At its simplest level, it is a force with a direction towards the origin of that force.
There are various manifestations of this, such as electrostatic interactions, magnetic interactions, and gravity.

Your hatred of it because of its ties to gravity doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

But notice how yet again you deflect away.
You can't explain how the world would work without pulling forces, so you just deflect at all costs.

Just like this entire line of BS from you is just a pathetic deflection from your inability to explain why things fall.
To pretend to explain it, you need to come up with a line of BS, only to discard it almost immediately thereafter as it fails to actually explain how reality works.

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JackBlack

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Re: Experiment ideas to prove Denpressure?
« Reply #224 on: May 03, 2023, 03:00:43 PM »
There has never and will never be free space.
It is impossible.
You can't even explain it because it would make no sense.
Again, your pathetic lies will not save you.
I have explained it. It is truly simple. Space, with nothing in it.
This is not difficult to understand.
But as it goes against your delusional garbage, you reject it.

But you cannot explain why there can't be free space, nor can you explain what is explained by free space.

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Same thing. Both are hypothetical.
No. Not the same thing.
Something being hypothetical does not mean it is the same as every other hypothetical thing.
But more importantly, that is just your pathetic assertion.
Closed systems do exist. They are not hypothetical.

Is this your latest pathetic attempt? Just define a closed system as something purely hypothetical to pretend it can't exist?

If you want to keep going down this path, stop using English entirely as you clearly don't care what words mean.

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The atmosphere does push a helium balloon
And according to your previous delusional BS, it needs to push it DOWN!
This was your pathetic analogy:
Or it acts like a spring mattress above your head pushing into a spring mattress above that and anotehr above that and so on and your energy is dissipated between them all with the one directly above you taking the brunt of the initial force as you see the indentation and the one above that will create more of a resistance until one of the mattresses acts as a full barrier.
This is when the reaction comes into force and the spring back occurs.
Stick to that.
You have the air acting like a spring mattress.
You push the OBJECT (Note: Object, as it shouldn't matter what object you are using) up into it.
This causes the mattress to compress and push the mattress above it and so on.
And then the mattress springs back, pushing the object DOWN!

This should apply regardless of what the object is and push EVERYTHING down.
If that is the case, a helium filled balloon should be pushed DOWN by the atmosphere, not up.

But because this analogy is pure BS and does not explain reality at all, as soon a helium filled balloon is brought up, you need to flee from your own analogy, because it so easily demonstrates why you are wrong.

So stick to this analogy to explain how the spring mattress pushes the helium down, or admit this is BS which doesn't explain why things fall.

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I don't mind sticking to it if it helps people.
Yet here you are fleeing from it yet again, because it indicates EVERYTHING should fall, including helium filled balloons.

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You actually do compress like a spring and it stays as long as you keep that dense mass pushed into it.
No, you don't.
When you move an object up, the atmosphere flows around, just like if you move it sideways or downwards.


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It doesn't need to be magic.
It does need to be magic.
So it knows to magically compress and stay compressed when a push a dense object up, while flowing around the object if you push it sideways or downwards. And then not compressing the top and instead magically pushing up when an object is less dense than air.
That is pure magic.

If it wasn't magic, then it wouldn't have the directionally you need, nor the ability to sense if the object is more or less dense than air.
Instead, if it wasn't magic, it would resist relative motion, and the pressure gradient would push all objects upwards.

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No. The pressure resists your push of the ball but fails to stop it, 0only slow its descent.
Yes, the pressure from below pushing upwards resists the downwards motion of the object, and the pressure from the atmosphere above pushing down is not enough to overcome that resistance. You need an extra force, GRAVITY, to explain it.
The force of gravity on the steel ball, combined with the push down from the atmosphere above is enough to overcome the push up from below and have the ball sink.
But the force of gravity on the helium balloon, even after being combined with the push down from the atmosphere above, is NOT enough to overcome the resistance below, so it is pushed up.

Or for the analogy with water:
Yes, the pressure from below pushing upwards resists the downwards motion of the object, and the pressure from the water above pushing down is not enough to overcome that resistance. You need an extra force, GRAVITY, to explain it.
The force of gravity on the steel ball, combined with the push down from the water above is enough to overcome the push up from below and have the ball sink.
But the force of gravity on the football, even after being combined with the push down from the water above, is NOT enough to overcome the resistance below, so it is pushed up.

So gravity can explain it trivially.
But your delusional garbage can't.
With your delusional garbage, the steel ball can't get any extra help from the atmosphere to push it down. The pressure pushing down is the same in both cases and in both cases it is weaker than the pressure pushing up.
The push down from above is simply not enough to overcome the push up from below so the object should rise.

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Yep. I've been saying it for long enough.
And you then proceed to directly contradict it.
Your delusional requires the atmosphere to easily flow around objects, expect when you need it to act like a spring to push objects down, at which point it magically stops flowing around so pushing an object up just magically compresses the air above.

This is a clear indication that your model is delusional garbage completely incapable of explaining reality.

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Displacement.
This in no way explains why this simple test allegedly disproves gravity or supports your delusional garbage, when it clearly demonstrates the problem with your delusional garbage and entirely matches the results expected from gravity.

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Nope.
Again, your pathetic assertion wont help you.
Likewise, trying to call the reactionary force "resist" doesn't negate it.
That is the action reaction pair. You push an object, it pushes back. Or as you would say in your non-English, you push the object and it resists.

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It does not push back unless you compress it against something in which it can compress back. Only then will it push back.
All it does it resist your push.
"resist your push" IS pushing back.
Otherwise, you should be able to just go straight through it.

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I'll make this simple.
I already have.
If your delusional BS was true, pushing into the other carriage should result in no additional force on the first train, meaning it should accelerate as before.

No need for any extra BS from you.
If there is no push back, then explain why the train is so much slower when moving this carriage?

If you would like something simpler, like the BS you are coming up with now, consider Newton's cradle.
You take a ball on one end and drop it, when it hits the ball, it stops. This is because there was a reactionary force stopping it.
That ball doesn't need to take up some position to brace itself to be able to push back.
Its inertia causes it to push back.

Otherwise, you magically generate forces from no where.

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If I barge into you as you stand still then you resist my push and you fall backward as I move forwards.
You resist
i.e. I push back, and you slow down.

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that is a resistance, not a pushback.
That resistance, is a push back.
Again, if you don't want to speak English then stop pretending to.

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JackBlack

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Re: Experiment ideas to prove Denpressure?
« Reply #225 on: May 03, 2023, 03:19:53 PM »
Negligible as in what?
You have had this explained to you already.
Negligible as in accounting for it or not accounting for it produces the same result within uncertainty.

If two balls of different densities are dropped from the same height and they appear to hit the floor at the same time but one possibly could be hitting the floor 1/1 millionth of a second sooner...is this negligible to you?
Are you capable of measuring that difference, which also requires you to be able to release them that accurately, from a height accurately enough to produce less than that difference?
If not, it is negligible.

The amount of air in the vaccum chamber is neligible, so there are so few collisions with the air molecules (again, this is clear evidence of free space. With your delusional BS, evacuating it to make the air molecules larger should make it harder to get through, not easier) that it has no significant effect.
So we observe things like a piece of alfoil fall just as quickly as a solid aluminium ball. It demonstrates that it is not the air causing it to move.

There are several issues for you here.
The first is if the air is what is pushing down, and what is resisting, why is it different at all?
Why should the geometry of the object affect how it falls? Changing the geometry affects the push down from above and the push up from below. So why doesn't this result in the same overall force, and the same acceleration?
And specifically for this, if reducing the air pressure causes the resistance to drop, why doesn't it also drop the push down, resulting in no net change, so an object falls in a vacuum just like it does in air?

It makes no sense at all.

Do you know what does make sense?
Gravity, and the known properties of air, including inertia.

They expand out of their layers and lose them becoming less dense than what was compressed out by that expansion.
If they lose their layers, where do they go? How do they get them back?

If you can't copy and paste you have nothing.
Never mind.
You are the one claiming the air is needed for it all. So YOU EXPLAIN HOW!
Explain the role of the air in all of it.

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Stash

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Re: Experiment ideas to prove Denpressure?
« Reply #226 on: May 03, 2023, 03:34:29 PM »
Kind of an aside, but maybe not. It's not clear to me that denpressure requires a flat earth. Experimentally and actually practically speaking as well.

You could have a globe earth, hermetically sealed like the membrane around a cell and all the properties of denpressure would function exactly the same way as on a domed flat earth. Or am I missing some element of denpressure that requires a planar earth?


Jack and i tried to reason that walking laterally would cause the same compressing of sponges.
So he ad hoc that it also requires something to push straight up in order to push down against.
A 'foundation'

I'm still thinking that a globe earth enshrouded in a membrane would provide the same "foundational" properties as a flat earth. I can see no difference. Also taking into consideration that there is no real up or down in terms of a flat earth relative to whatever it is floating in outside of a membrane. A flat earth could be _ , / , l, doesn't much matter. It just as well could be O, as long as it is encased.

I'm offering that one can completely separate denpressure from the shape of the earth. All that is required is sheath, skin, diaphragm, whatever you want to call it, that encloses the actual earth.

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JackBlack

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Re: Experiment ideas to prove Denpressure?
« Reply #227 on: May 03, 2023, 03:43:06 PM »
Kind of an aside, but maybe not. It's not clear to me that denpressure requires a flat earth. Experimentally and actually practically speaking as well.

You could have a globe earth, hermetically sealed like the membrane around a cell and all the properties of denpressure would function exactly the same way as on a domed flat earth. Or am I missing some element of denpressure that requires a planar earth?


Jack and i tried to reason that walking laterally would cause the same compressing of sponges.
So he ad hoc that it also requires something to push straight up in order to push down against.
A 'foundation'

I'm still thinking that a globe earth enshrouded in a membrane would provide the same "foundational" properties as a flat earth. I can see no difference. Also taking into consideration that there is no real up or down in terms of a flat earth relative to whatever it is floating in outside of a membrane. A flat earth could be _ , / , l, doesn't much matter. It just as well could be O, as long as it is encased.

I'm offering that one can completely separate denpressure from the shape of the earth. All that is required is sheath, skin, diaphragm, whatever you want to call it, that encloses the actual earth.
And I agree entirely.
What's more, due to these "membranes" really just being air, there is no real reason for a solid object like a rocket to not be able to penetrate it like it can penetrate air.

And there is no reason for multiple objects to not have these membranes and stacks, e.g. one for Earth, one for the moon, etc. Now you could say the moon has a vacuum, not an atmosphere, but as sceptic always says, even that has air, it isn't a perfect vacuum.

But I also don't see why a membrane is actually needed.
Why not just have it open and just let the layers get so diffuse there is basically no air.

And this would then at least go some way into explaining Cavendish. The weights act as a foundation and the air layers around them; with the layering from Earth and the layering from the weight overlapping to create a force on the weights on the rod.

It seems a common trend for FEers is to claim gravity is made up to explain the RE, but what they come up with works equally well on a RE.

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DataOverFlow2022

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Re: Experiment ideas to prove Denpressure?
« Reply #228 on: May 03, 2023, 03:58:54 PM »

And what is needed to exchange the heat?


The surface area acting as a barrier between the two liquids.  Increasing the tubes in a heat exchanger that separates the two liquids increases the surface area and the rate heat can be exchanged.

This will blow your Fucking mind.  In many processes the piping, heat exchangers, equipment is separated “from the atmosphere” by insulation.

Or the “atmosphere” is kept out of storage tanks to prevent chemicals from degrading. 

Not only is the “atmosphere” not needed for many process.  Ambient losses cuts into efficiency.  It’s an undesirable loss of heat and or energy.   Atmosphere can cause contamination of a process and / or degradation of chemicals. 


In fact.  I’ve seen carbon beds loaded with tars create bad and dangerous reactions when exposed to “atmosphere”. 

pyrophoric
Quote
A substance is pyrophoric (from Greek: πυροφόρος, pyrophoros, 'fire-bearing') if it ignites spontaneously in air at or below 54 °C (129 °F) (for gases) or within 5 minutes after coming into contact with air (for liquids and solids).[1] Examples are organolithium compounds and triethylborane. Pyrophoric materials are often water-reactive as well and will ignite when they contact water or humid air. They can be handled safely in atmospheres of argon or (with a few exceptions) nitrogen. Class D fire extinguishers are designated for use in fires involving pyrophoric materials. A related concept is hypergolicity, in which two compounds spontaneously ignite when mixed.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrophoricity


How do I know the process is isolated from the “atmosphere”, because it didn’t explode and / or start an uncontrollable fire.  Until shutdown and there was a bad valve line up and the system caught fire. 
« Last Edit: May 04, 2023, 08:53:55 AM by DataOverFlow2022 »

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sceptimatic

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Re: Experiment ideas to prove Denpressure?
« Reply #229 on: May 04, 2023, 10:04:16 PM »


Why would thermite need atmosphere to carry out its reaction.
Because anything that expends energy has to have a medium to burn in, whether that's a liquid or a gas.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Experiment ideas to prove Denpressure?
« Reply #230 on: May 04, 2023, 10:06:40 PM »

And that's all you needed to admit.

Which has what to do with you have in no way shown when air resistance is made negligible objects of different densities drop at different rate.

And your complete and utter failure to show density changes the rate at which objects fall when air resistance is made negligible.

Why are you arguing real science with a real science denier? Sceptimatic wouldn't know the difference between the two ends of a test tube, and lives in a world of make believe.
Says a person who thinks we spin on a ball in a space vacuum.
And you think I offer make-believe. I'd say the one you were massively indoctrinated into was akin to a fairy story of epic proportions.


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sceptimatic

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Re: Experiment ideas to prove Denpressure?
« Reply #231 on: May 04, 2023, 10:44:02 PM »
Everything has to affect something. Nothing can be independent in an overall system.
This is not what closed means.
It depends which way it's looked at.
I've already told you there can never be a true closed system and isolated is just another alternate idea of a closed system. None portray reality.
Your idea of a closed system is to offer  (for instance) a water pipe sealed at both ends and you think energy transfer from that is being a closed system.


Quote from: JackBlack
That is why I asked you for a definition, which you refused to provide.
You may as well be saying nothing can be a sedjkiiyuksjrb system. It makes just as much sense coming from you.
To be fair you might as well be saying that.


Quote from: JackBlack
There can never ever be free space. It cannot exist as anything. It's fictional.
The properties of liquids and gases are drastically different.
This is because in the liquid phase, there is very minimal free space. The molecules are "touching" and interacting quite strongly.
This also means it is pretty much incompressible as the compression is just eliminating that free space.
The molecules are always compressed and are more densely packed within themselves.

Quote from: JackBlack
Gases are drastically different. They are predominately free space. The molecules are not touching and do not interact significantly (except for when they collide and bounce off each other).
This means they are quite compressible, as there is plenty of free space to be removed.
They are never free space. They are just less layered molecules that are again, compressed into each other with absolutely no free space between them, inside or outside


Quote from: JackBlack
But more importantly for this, there is a phase boundary between them.
You have a large amount of liquid, with a small amount of gas above it.
They all interact. None without the other. It's all layered dense masses of molecules under varying layers.

Quote from: JackBlack
The gas above contains the comparably small amount of molecules with enough energy to overcome the attraction (I know, another thing you hate and want to claim can't exist) and break away from the bulk, with lots of free space in between.
This means the liquid, for the most part, stays put and doesn't reach the pump.
Liquid is displacing the atmosphere just as solids are. They're all the same setup just in varying densities of molecular make-up.

To work a pump you need to have a less dense outlet.
A lower pressure above a higher pressure aided by an energy force (pump) achieves this push against lower resistance to push.

Unless you're trying to offer something else.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Experiment ideas to prove Denpressure?
« Reply #232 on: May 04, 2023, 11:06:23 PM »
Quote from: JackBlack
If there was no free space, and gas was just expanded molecules to free the space then liquid and gas should behave identically.
If you'd paid attention to the gobstopper explanation then you would understand a bit better.



Quote from: JackBlack
There should be no clear phase boundary.
That is you put liquid water in a chamber, and started removing the air, the water should simply expand to fill the space.
No. It doesn't work like that.
Back to the gobstopper.
Maybe you should get a bit more familiar with my analogy.

Quote from: JackBlack
This means the water should expand and reach the pump.
Your delusional fantasy fails to match reality.
I'd say you still haven't grasped what I told you in all this time.

Quote from: JackBlack
The mass is the cause of the transfer of energy.
Which in no way means the mass is transferred.
That depends on how you want to look at it.
If you mean the transfer of a liquid through a metal pipe just seeping out to the exterior as it being that mass transfer, then you can have that but it still doesn't offer a closed system for energy transfer.

It's more like you're offering a closed room full of balls and saying those balls can't get out unless you open the door to release those masses.
That has no real meaning to anything because we are talking about work being down and the resulting transfer of energy from it.

Quote from: JackBlack
Explain it.
Stop playing dumb.
Just what part do you fail to understand?
Mass, i.e. matter, e.g. molecules.
Transfer, move between location. For the purpose of this discussion it is moving from the inside of the system to the outside, or from the  outside to the inside.

These are very basic English words.
If you can't understand them, you don't understand English.
Ok let's look at this another way.

Do you know those pin art things?


Well, can you tell me what transfer this is?
Are you transferring mass and energy from one area to another and leaving behind a gap to be filled?
This is a crude example but something on the simple scale of what life is. It's action and equal and opposite reaction. It mimics everything we or anything does.
Molecular wise it simply changes state when imagined unfrozen against frozen displacement.



Quote from: JackBlack
No we can't.
Repeating the same pathetic assertions wont help you.
Likewise, your continued pathetic appeal to a perfect vacuum wont help you.
No one is saying the vacuum has to be perfect.
But what we can do is vary the amount of air in a container and see how that affects radiative processes, and when you do, you observe that the air interferes.
Then don't offer a vacuum. Offer low pressure and it will be more clear.
You won't because you know you can play on words and twist anything if you use a vacuum and get a nod from me.


Quote from: JackBlack
Dump what into the water and what are you using to do that?
THE HEAT!
Again, stop playing dumb.
The air is not needed, no matter how much you want to pretend it is.
So, tell me how the liquid-cooled CPU works.

Or simply answer if it requires a fan.

Quote from: JackBlack
We can take a hot object, and dump it in water, and have the heat transfer from the object to the water. We do not need the air to do that.
And what do you think happens in water in order for the water to have a cooling effect?
I'll make it easier.
If you have hot metal ( as an instance) and you drop it into a bath of water, what happens in the cooling process?



Quote from: JackBlack
In fact, if we surround the object in a layer of air, the energy transfer is far slower. The air hinders transfer of energy in this case.
We aren't talking about slower of faster. We are talking about the actual transfer of energy.

Quote from: JackBlack
Likewise, we can use a heatsink on something like a CPU. In order to get the best heat transfer, we use thermal paste (or something similar). This is to provide a malleable high thermal conductivity contact. If you don't, and instead you let air get in, you significantly reduce the ability to transfer heat.
What does thermal paste do?

Quote from: JackBlack
Again, your delusional BS goes against so much science it isn't funny.
Maybe, maybe not. This is what's being argued because my argument is whether real people are doing actual real science in some cases...not all cases.... or are we being sold and told stories behind certain things that are not exactly as true as they should be.
This is what's being argued, so don't get all angry just because you believe everything official and I don't.

Quote from: JackBlack
Yet you claim to have respect for scientists when you just completely reject so much that they have shown because it doesn't fit into your delusional garbage?
I respect all genuine scientists.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Experiment ideas to prove Denpressure?
« Reply #233 on: May 04, 2023, 11:07:10 PM »






Quote from: JackBlack
Explain what a photon is and how it radiates away energy.
A photon is a packet of energy with a particular frequency. It is electromagnetic radiation.
It is the energy that is radiated away.

If you want to play dumb, I can as well. What is a molecule? What is a vibration? What do you mean the air is needed?
Of course. It's a good answer but at least you adit you're arguing for something you have no clue about except to be told this does that.
This is why we're arguing and I'm in the same arguing boat as far as physically knowing what molecules are.
I can only go on my own experiments in basic life and from what I see and perceive by how things offer me reasoning.

You can dismiss it but have no clue what you're dismissing and generally have no clue about what you're arguing for except to have handy references available at your fingertips to fight your good fight.



Quote from: JackBlack
Liquid cooling requires something else. Can you guess what it is?
A source of heat, i.e. the CPU, and somewhere to dump it. This is COMMONLY the atmosphere, but it is not necessarily the atmosphere.
The atmosphere is not needed.
It absolutely is.

Quote from: JackBlack
And again, this is a deflection.
The fact that liquid cooling works at all demonstrates the atmosphere is not needed. It demonstrates that things other than the atmosphere can transfer energy.
Of course but the end result always comes back to the atmosphere.
It's what's called a chain reaction.


Quote from: JackBlack
Again, if your delusional BS was true, it wouldn't be a liquid cooler, it would be an atmospheric cooler, which just moved around the atmosphere. i.e. a fan, to directly expose the silicon of the CPU to the air.
Both are required. They're all molecules just in different dense configurations. They all hold everything which as the final end to the process which is the atmosphere.

Vacuums are fictional. Free space is fictional. Energy transfer through no medium is fictional. It really is as simple as that.

Quote from: JackBlack
You can't describe what a pulling force is.
I can, and have.
At its simplest level, it is a force with a direction towards the origin of that force.
There are various manifestations of this, such as electrostatic interactions, magnetic interactions, and gravity.

Your hatred of it because of its ties to gravity doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

But notice how yet again you deflect away.
You can't explain how the world would work without pulling forces, so you just deflect at all costs.
You're offering words that explain nothing.


Quote from: JackBlack
Just like this entire line of BS from you is just a pathetic deflection from your inability to explain why things fall.
To pretend to explain it, you need to come up with a line of BS, only to discard it almost immediately thereafter as it fails to actually explain how reality works.
Getting all angry and consistently offering up this useless dig is pointless. By all means, keep doing it if it actually makes you feel better but know from my inside that I smile when I see it.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Experiment ideas to prove Denpressure?
« Reply #234 on: May 04, 2023, 11:45:34 PM »

If you would like something simpler, like the BS you are coming up with now, consider Newton's cradle.
You take a ball on one end and drop it, when it hits the ball, it stops. This is because there was a reactionary force stopping it.

When you crash one ball into another or in this case a resistance of another 4 balls (as an instance then those 4 balls act as the resistance to that energy of the one crashing into them.
That resistance is transferred to the other balls, each connected and resisting the other and transferring that energy to the end ball which has a lot less resistance of atmosphere to it.
It's all push one way against resistance to push until that last ball returns to alter the pushing and resisting state the other way.

There is no puash back untiol that last ball is pushed away.


Quote from: JackBlack
That ball doesn't need to take up some position to brace itself to be able to push back.
Its inertia causes it to push back.

Otherwise, you magically generate forces from no where.

What inertia?
I thought you said inertia was resistance to motion.

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Magicalus

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Re: Experiment ideas to prove Denpressure?
« Reply #235 on: May 04, 2023, 11:58:07 PM »
If the atmosphere is made up of a stack of gobstoppers with each lower layer having an extra layer of gobstopper. Why aren't the lowest layers (with billions of layers) massively larger than those higher up? Why don't those lowest layers expand , forcing themselves upward through the stack?
If the Earth is a dome, we can approximate that like each layer is a cylinder, with the next cylinder up being a little smaller than the one below it. The larger layers have more area to settle, so they don't push up.

However, you've reminded me of a very important thing: the apple barrel problem. Imagine you had a barrel of apples, all varying in size. Now, if you shook this barrel around a lot, which apples would end up on the bottom? Intuition says the large apples, because they're heavier, so they sink. However, in reality the small apples sink, because they fit through the gaps between the large apples. Now, in a world where molecules are all differently sized objects, why wouldn't the smaller gobstoppers go down to the bottom, like the apples?

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sceptimatic

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Re: Experiment ideas to prove Denpressure?
« Reply #236 on: May 05, 2023, 12:04:46 AM »
If two balls of different densities are dropped from the same height and they appear to hit the floor at the same time but one possibly could be hitting the floor 1/1 millionth of a second sooner...is this negligible to you?
Are you capable of measuring that difference, which also requires you to be able to release them that accurately, from a height accurately enough to produce less than that difference?
If not, it is negligible.
In the grand scheme of things nothing is negligible and we can't have nothing, so everything is pertinent.


Quote from: JackBlack
The amount of air in the vaccum chamber is neligible, so there are so few collisions with the air molecules (again, this is clear evidence of free space.
There are always collisions because everything is always attached and under vibration/compression/expansion. It's just much less dense energy due to less dense molecules vibrating/pushing/compressing/expanding into one another.
No free space....ever.

Quote from: JackBlack
With your delusional BS, evacuating it to make the air molecules larger should make it harder to get through, not easier) that it has no significant effect.
So we observe things like a piece of alfoil fall just as quickly as a solid aluminium ball. It demonstrates that it is not the air causing it to move.
This is where you aren't paying attention.

Again the gobstopper needs to be revisited for you.

Quote from: JackBlack
They expand out of their layers and lose them becoming less dense than what was compressed out by that expansion.
If they lose their layers, where do they go? How do they get them back?

They get broken down and expanded into the denser atmosphere and added into that pressure which creates more pressure back onto the place that is allowing that expansion and compression.
The pump.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Experiment ideas to prove Denpressure?
« Reply #237 on: May 05, 2023, 12:06:07 AM »
Kind of an aside, but maybe not. It's not clear to me that denpressure requires a flat earth. Experimentally and actually practically speaking as well.

You could have a globe earth, hermetically sealed like the membrane around a cell and all the properties of denpressure would function exactly the same way as on a domed flat earth. Or am I missing some element of denpressure that requires a planar earth?


Jack and i tried to reason that walking laterally would cause the same compressing of sponges.
So he ad hoc that it also requires something to push straight up in order to push down against.
A 'foundation'

I'm still thinking that a globe earth enshrouded in a membrane would provide the same "foundational" properties as a flat earth. I can see no difference. Also taking into consideration that there is no real up or down in terms of a flat earth relative to whatever it is floating in outside of a membrane. A flat earth could be _ , / , l, doesn't much matter. It just as well could be O, as long as it is encased.

I'm offering that one can completely separate denpressure from the shape of the earth. All that is required is sheath, skin, diaphragm, whatever you want to call it, that encloses the actual earth.
Your global Earth offers no foundation for a dome.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Experiment ideas to prove Denpressure?
« Reply #238 on: May 05, 2023, 12:12:52 AM »
The surface area acting as a barrier between the two liquids.  Increasing the tubes in a heat exchanger that separates the two liquids increases the surface area and the rate heat can be exchanged.
Exchanged to where?


Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
This will blow your Fucking mind.  In many processes the piping, heat exchangers, equipment is separated “from the atmosphere” by insulation.
And what insulation would this be?

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
Or the “atmosphere” is kept out of storage tanks to prevent chemicals from degrading. 
Do you know of any storage tank that does not transfer energy external to it?

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
Not only is the “atmosphere” not needed for many process.  Ambient losses cuts into efficiency.  It’s an undesirable loss of heat and or energy.   Atmosphere can cause contamination of a process and / or degradation of chemicals. 


In fact.  I’ve seen carbon beds loaded with tars create bad and dangerous reactions when exposed to “atmosphere”. 

pyrophoric
Quote
A substance is pyrophoric (from Greek: πυροφόρος, pyrophoros, 'fire-bearing') if it ignites spontaneously in air at or below 54 °C (129 °F) (for gases) or within 5 minutes after coming into contact with air (for liquids and solids).[1] Examples are organolithium compounds and triethylborane. Pyrophoric materials are often water-reactive as well and will ignite when they contact water or humid air. They can be handled safely in atmospheres of argon or (with a few exceptions) nitrogen. Class D fire extinguishers are designated for use in fires involving pyrophoric materials. A related concept is hypergolicity, in which two compounds spontaneously ignite when mixed.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrophoricity


How do I know the process is isolated from the “atmosphere”, because it didn’t explode and / or start an uncontrollable fire.  Until shutdown and there was a bad valve line up and the system caught fire.
Does it lose energy to the atmosphere?
If not then explain why not.

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Stash

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Re: Experiment ideas to prove Denpressure?
« Reply #239 on: May 05, 2023, 12:58:47 AM »
Kind of an aside, but maybe not. It's not clear to me that denpressure requires a flat earth. Experimentally and actually practically speaking as well.

You could have a globe earth, hermetically sealed like the membrane around a cell and all the properties of denpressure would function exactly the same way as on a domed flat earth. Or am I missing some element of denpressure that requires a planar earth?


Jack and i tried to reason that walking laterally would cause the same compressing of sponges.
So he ad hoc that it also requires something to push straight up in order to push down against.
A 'foundation'

I'm still thinking that a globe earth enshrouded in a membrane would provide the same "foundational" properties as a flat earth. I can see no difference. Also taking into consideration that there is no real up or down in terms of a flat earth relative to whatever it is floating in outside of a membrane. A flat earth could be _ , / , l, doesn't much matter. It just as well could be O, as long as it is encased.

I'm offering that one can completely separate denpressure from the shape of the earth. All that is required is sheath, skin, diaphragm, whatever you want to call it, that encloses the actual earth.
Your global Earth offers no foundation for a dome.

Explain what you mean by "foundation for a dome"?

Cells have membranes around them that separate the inside from the outside environment. A "dome" is not required. Why is a "dome" required here?