Experiment ideas to prove Denpressure?

And I've just told you it alters the setup both inside and out.

There is no interaction of the outside atmosphere crossing the air tight barrier of the vacuum chamber.

The energy required to lift the steel ball.

Just like potential energy and gravity.


And what energy is the magnetic using to lift a metal ball in a vacuum chamber.  Noted.  Added clarity.  Once the steel ball is in the magnetic field close enough for the ball to jump up to stick to the magnet. 

Nothing. It's a sealed cell.

Then there is no “dome”. At least not in the air tight barrier provided by a vacuum chamber.


If it’s a sealed cell, then by your logic it still has to be robbing something from outside the cell like your statements concerning the isolation of a vacuum chamber.

What do you mean?
Explain what it is you're saying. Give me an example.

What makes a steam boiler a closed system?
In thermodynamics, a closed system can exchange energy (as heat or work) but not matter, with its surroundings. An isolated system cannot exchange any heat, work, or matter with the surroundings, while an open system can exchange energy and matter.

https://www.researchgate.net/post/What_makes_a_steam_boiler_a_closed_system

A candle in a close system like a gas bottle will burn just fine until the oxygen is used up. But the actual reaction needs no support from outside the gas bottle to actually occur.  Nothing is robbed or supplied from outside the gas bottle. 


And again…

Things of different dense masses do not fall at the same rate.

Really?










****** So you have four problems that kill den-pressure.

One, when air resistance is made negligible by the shape of the object and or removing the air resistance, density has no effect on the rate objects fall.

 And sceptimatic has provided no evidence otherwise.  And sceptimatic has not provided any modeling of rates things should fall at based on density in a vacuum where air resistance is made negligible.

Look at this cited source..

How to Calculate a Bullet's Trajectory

https://sciencing.com/projectile-motion-physics-definition-equations-problems-w-examples-13720233.html

Funny. Air resistance and air density are used.  The value of gravity and the bullet mass is used.  But the bullet’s density for example is not used as a factor to determine when the bullet will hit the ground. Strange.  Because a bullet can be many different things.  Leads. Lead jacketed with copper.  And so on.  Just mass, gravity, changes in height, and drag.  No density required for the calculations.  It’s like weight, gravity acting on mass, is the important thing. 


Two.  If pressure is the downward force that makes things fall at a certain rate.  Why do things fall faster in a vacuum. 

Three.  In a no gravity model there is no reason there should be higher atmospheric pressure at sea level, and every reason the pressure should release and equalize with the lower pressure of the upper atmosphere.  Somehow the lower pressure of the upper atmosphere is trapping higher pressure at sea level in defiance of the gas laws. 

Four.  How can density remain the same and pressure change?  Like 1 kilogram of oxygen gas trapped in a gas bottle as it heats and cools. 

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022 on April 28, 2023, 11:39:52 AM

The Bourdon tube shows as gas pressure and or the amount of gas molecules in a trapped space changes, the ability of that gas to expert a force changes.  Thus.  Weight should have a direct and predictable change as pressure changes.  There is no correlation between weight and pressure.

Ok so you think there's no correlation between weight and pressure.

If I stuck a scale to a container wall and placed you just touching that scale and then inflated a membrane inside that container against you, would you start to offer a reading on that scale?
If not why not and if so, why?

Which is different from the below this how?

First of all evacuating atmosphere from a container still leaves a pressure in that container that will create a pushback onto any dense mass within and displace that atmosphere.

Huh.

Funny.

This is how a Bourdon Tube Pressure Gauge works

Bourdon Tube Pressure Gauge Working Principle Animation

https://instrumentationtools.com/bourdon-tube-pressure-gauge-working-principle-animation/amp/

It is basically consisted of a C-shaped hollow tube, whose one end is fixed and connected to the pressure tapping, the other end free, as shown in fig. The cross section of the tube is elliptical.




When pressure is applied, the elliptical tube (Bourdon tube) tries to acquire a circular cross section; as a result, stress is developed and the tube tries to straighten up. Thus the free end of the tube moves up, depending on magnitude of pressure. A deflecting and indicating mechanism is attached to the free end that rotates the pointer and indicates the Pressure reading. The materials used are commonly Phosphor Bronze, Brass and Beryllium Copper.

So.  Let get this straight.   As the number of gas molecules are removed from a chamber equipped with a Bourdon Tube Pressure Gauge, the ability for the atmosphere to physically extend the Bourdon Tube is diminished.  The c shape of the tube physically contracts.

But in your den-pressure delusion where less atmospheric pressure in a container makes a Bourdon Tube “contact” and deflect the gauge to show less pressure.  Somehow will magically make things read the same weight, and have no change in weight in relationship to pressure changes.  But the same pressure change has less force to deform the Bourdon Tube, changes the shape of the Bourdon Tube so it can indicate the pressure change.


Den-pressure is bullshit. 


Note. Added.  And you can take the whole system and refrigerate it to temps approaching absolute zero to turn all gases to liquids….

If I stuck a scale to a container wall and placed you just touching that scale and then inflated a membrane inside that container against you, would you start to offer a reading on that scale?
If not why not and if so, why?

Which is nothing like a person in a pressure chamber with the pressure increasing.   Which is a better model of atmosphere.

As the pressure in the pressure chamber is increased or decreased.  Will the weight of the person in the pressure chamber change, and to what degree as modeled by den-pressure. 

If I stuck a scale to a container wall and placed you just touching that scale and then inflated a membrane inside that container against you, would you start to offer a reading on that scale?
If not why not and if so, why?

Also for your set up.  If the air for the membrane was from a contained pressurized cylinder for the system.  And the system of the container was on a giant balance scale.  Would  the system as a whole show an increase in weight while I was being squished. Which could be replicated by a spring.  Or would the container as a system stay the same weight? 

Kind of an aside, but maybe not. It's not clear to me that denpressure requires a flat earth. Experimentally and actually practically speaking as well.

You could have a globe earth, hermetically sealed like the membrane around a cell and all the properties of denpressure would function exactly the same way as on a domed flat earth. Or am I missing some element of denpressure that requires a planar earth?

Nothing will fall apart if you take away the gravity nonsense.

So you admit gravity is not needed to explain the rotating RE orbiting the sun? And that your prior allegations that gravity was invented to hold that together is nothing more than a blatant lie to try and dismiss gravity?

But if we instead go to reality, we see that without gravity, or some force quite like it, you can't explain the most basic things of why things fall and why there is a pressure gradient in the atmosphere.

Again, you NEED gravity, and you continually appeal to it by appealing to the mass of the object as if that mass alone (rather than the air) is what is causing the object to fall, and all the air does is the pressure above helps the object overcome the greater pressure below.

Remove that gravitational force acting on the object, so you only have the air, then you have the greater pressure below pushing the object upwards against the lower pressure above.

And likewise, you appeal to the air needing to support the weight of the air above, but if it was just the air pushing down, then each layer would merely transfer that force from above to below, keeping the pressure constant.

Until you can explain these most basic aspects of your model, you cannot honestly say gravity (or something comparable to it) is not needed.

Likewise, until you can actually explain how the air magically pushes 2 masses together, you cannot honestly claim that denpressure causes the results of the Cavendish experiment.

Yous ee yours isn't explainable, mine is.

No, yours is entirely inexplicable, as you cannot explain why displacing atmosphere should magically cause the atmosphere to magically push the object down, rather than in any other direction, nor why it should magically defy the pressure gradient which should be pushing it up, nor why it then magically switches for some objects and pushes things up instead.

So no, your is not explicable in any way.

If you ditched your obsession with the air and instead claimed that the mass naturally wants to go down, so even in the hypothetical absence of all air it would go down, you would be much closer to an explanation, but also much closer to gravity.

Air resistance is never made negligible. That's the whole point.

That is your assertion, which is refuted by simple demonstrations of objects in a vacuum.

Ok so you think there's no correlation between weight and pressure.

Weight and pressure, no.
Measured weight (such as from a scale) and density of the fluid, yes. That is because the fluid, thanks to gravity, has a pressure gradient pushing upwards, causing an upwards force proportional to the weight of the fluid displaced.

If you just had air, that means the greater the pressure the lower the weight reading.
But if your delusional BS was true, we would expect more air to mean more weight.

If I stuck a scale to a container wall and placed you just touching that scale and then inflated a membrane inside that container against you, would you start to offer a reading on that scale?

Notice how far removed you have to be from the original idea to pretend your BS is justified?
You have the scale pressed against a wall, so it isn't even measuring a downwards force (i.e. weight).
And now, instead of just increasing the pressure, you instead have a sealed membrane pushing against it.

Kind of an aside, but maybe not. It's not clear to me that denpressure requires a flat earth. Experimentally and actually practically speaking as well.

You could have a globe earth, hermetically sealed like the membrane around a cell and all the properties of denpressure would function exactly the same way as on a domed flat earth. Or am I missing some element of denpressure that requires a planar earth?

Jack and i tried to reason that walking laterally would cause the same compressing of sponges.
So he ad hoc that it also requires something to push straight up in order to push down against.
A 'foundation'

Quote from: Stash on April 29, 2023, 11:11:51 AM

Kind of an aside, but maybe not. It's not clear to me that denpressure requires a flat earth. Experimentally and actually practically speaking as well.

You could have a globe earth, hermetically sealed like the membrane around a cell and all the properties of denpressure would function exactly the same way as on a domed flat earth. Or am I missing some element of denpressure that requires a planar earth?

Jack and i tried to reason that walking laterally would cause the same compressing of sponges.
So he ad hoc that it also requires something to push straight up in order to push down against.
A 'foundation'

Strang.  Since you can increase the pressure inside a pressure bottle of a trapped gas with heat on a balance, and the balance will not indicate a different weight as pressure increases?  Or am I missing something? 

What makes a steam boiler a closed system?
In thermodynamics, a closed system can exchange energy (as heat or work) but not matter, with its surroundings. An isolated system cannot exchange any heat, work, or matter with the surroundings, while an open system can exchange energy and matter.

https://www.researchgate.net/post/What_makes_a_steam_boiler_a_closed_system

A steam boiler is never a closed system for long. It's just like a household pressure cooker. You create the pressure and then it has to be vented and then refilled and vented and refilled and so on and so on. It's an open system in reality to do work.

A candle in a close system like a gas bottle will burn just fine until the oxygen is used up. But the actual reaction needs no support from outside the gas bottle to actually occur.  Nothing is robbed or supplied from outside the gas bottle.

Give me an example of a candle burning inside a gas bottle .
 

****** So you have four problems that kill den-pressure.

One, when air resistance is made negligible by the shape of the object and or removing the air resistance, density has no effect on the rate objects fall.

Air resistance is never made negligible. It's always there, only a much lower pressure.
You need to rethink this one.

Two.  If pressure is the downward force that makes things fall at a certain rate.  Why do things fall faster in a vacuum. 

Things don't fall faster in a vacuum. Objects fall faster against lower pressure resistance to their dense mass.

Three.  In a no gravity model there is no reason there should be higher atmospheric pressure at sea level, and every reason the pressure should release and equalize with the lower pressure of the upper atmosphere.  Somehow the lower pressure of the upper atmosphere is trapping higher pressure at sea level in defiance of the gas laws. 

Your issue is in not taking into account the stacked layers in the atmosphere to the dome as being a natural end product of energy applied to the molecules that are pushed into the stack below and those that are crushed into their respective layering.
You see, you are trying to correlate a container of gas compressed into it as the same thing with the dome.
The difference is clear.
A container is filled at sea level under sea-level pressure.
It has nowhere to go other than to be compressed against the container walls and against its gaseous molecular self.

Four.  How can density remain the same and pressure change?  Like 1 kilogram of oxygen gas trapped in a gas bottle as it heats and cools.

That depends on the vibration of molecules outside as to whether you see small fluctuations in the container.

Your issue is in not taking into account the stacked layers in the atmosphere

No, your issue is not being able to explain the stack at all and instead acting like appealing to the stack existing will magically explain it.
What makes the layers close to Earth a higher pressure and density?

A steam boiler is never a closed system for long.

.

In the sense the person oversimplified the term steam cycle.

Heat up water in a boiler, knock the water out of the steam, (return it to the condensate system) the steam does work across turbine losing energy and pressure, the exhaust dumps into a condenser running at a vacuum.  Condensing the steam to water making a vacuum and collecting the water to pump back to the boiler.

The mass of the system is constant. 

The pressure on the inlet of the turbine can be hundreds of pounds (if not thousands) of pressure with the outlet of the turbine being at a vacuum because of the condenser.  And the cooling action of water ruining through the condenser tubes. 


The steam does not required to be vented into the atmosphere.

A cycle running at steady state with a constant pressure set point at the inlet of the turbine, and a constant vacuum at its outlet because of the condensing of steam in the condenser.

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022

A candle in a close system like a gas bottle will burn just fine until the oxygen is used up. But the actual reaction needs no support from outside the gas bottle to actually occur.  Nothing is robbed or supplied from outside the gas bottle.

Give me an example of a candle burning inside a gas bottle .
 

Well.  Let’s establish something first.  Why wouldn’t a candle burn in a gas bottle with normal atmosphere trapped in it until the oxygen was used up?

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022

Four.  How can density remain the same and pressure change?  Like 1 kilogram of oxygen gas trapped in a gas bottle as it heats and cools.

That depends on the vibration of molecules outside as to whether you see small fluctuations in the container.

The gas inside the bottle is trapped.  The gas can’t go across the barrier to the outside of the container.  If the mass of the gas is constant, and not at temperatures and pressures to make it change states.  And volume of the container is constant.  (If you’re worried about expansion and contraction of the bottle, you could compensate with some elaborate piston system to make volume stay constant) how do vibrations make the gas loose or gain mass to change density in a fixed volume.

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022

And what energy is the magnetic using to lift a metal ball in a vacuum chamber.  Noted.  Added clarity.  Once the steel ball is in the magnetic field close enough for the ball to jump up to stick to the magnet. 

Noticed you didn’t answer the energy question concerning the magnet.


You still have not addressed the things that kill den-pressure.

When air resistance is made negligible, why does a steel ball and a ping pong ball drop at the same rate.

The steel ball is what?  Twenty times more dense than the ping pong ball?  Why doesn’t the steel ball fall twenty times more faster than the ping pong ball in den-pressure?

Why do things fall faster in a vacuum.

As pointed out.  You still have no explanation why the lower pressure of the upper atmosphere keeps the higher pressure at sea level from equalizing in the context of the gas laws.  Over simplified maybe, but gravity does model this for an earth in space.

You know gravity.  The model that allows for accurate bullet trajectory predictions without using the bullet’s density.  But the use of mass and gravity. 

How can density remain the same and pressure change?  Like 1 kilogram of oxygen gas trapped in a gas bottle as it heats and cools. 

Model this in den-pressure..

Gravity Energy Storage. Who's right and who's wrong?

Quote from: sceptimatic on April 29, 2023, 05:42:09 AM

If I stuck a scale to a container wall and placed you just touching that scale and then inflated a membrane inside that container against you, would you start to offer a reading on that scale?
If not why not and if so, why?

Which is nothing like a person in a pressure chamber with the pressure increasing.   Which is a better model of atmosphere.

As the pressure in the pressure chamber is increased or decreased.  Will the weight of the person in the pressure chamber change, and to what degree as modeled by den-pressure.

You argued pressure was not the reason for the weight measure. I just gave you a simple and easy reason why it is.

Kind of an aside, but maybe not. It's not clear to me that denpressure requires a flat earth. Experimentally and actually practically speaking as well.

You could have a globe earth, hermetically sealed like the membrane around a cell and all the properties of denpressure would function exactly the same way as on a domed flat earth. Or am I missing some element of denpressure that requires a planar earth?

Absolutely but in terms of arguing my side we are inside a dome and we live upon uneven ground but we still live with liquids that find a level to any container they sit in.

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022 on April 29, 2023, 06:03:23 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on April 29, 2023, 05:42:09 AM

If I stuck a scale to a container wall and placed you just touching that scale and then inflated a membrane inside that container against you, would you start to offer a reading on that scale?
If not why not and if so, why?

Which is nothing like a person in a pressure chamber with the pressure increasing.   Which is a better model of atmosphere.

As the pressure in the pressure chamber is increased or decreased.  Will the weight of the person in the pressure chamber change, and to what degree as modeled by den-pressure.

You argued pressure was not the reason for the weight measure. I just gave you a simple and easy reason why it is.

No you didn’t

Quote from: sceptimatic on April 29, 2023, 05:26:02 AM

Nothing will fall apart if you take away the gravity nonsense.

So you admit gravity is not needed to explain the rotating RE orbiting the sun? And that your prior allegations that gravity was invented to hold that together is nothing more than a blatant lie to try and dismiss gravity?

You trying to put internet words into my internet forum mouth does not help you.
I can't admit to something that does not exist, so admitting to a fictional gravity to supposedly not be needed to keep a fictional rotating globe orbiting a fictional space sun are you attempting to do what you regularly do and try to twist the argument in your favour.

By all means, keep doing it but just remember it makes me smile.

Quote from: Stash on April 29, 2023, 11:11:51 AM

Kind of an aside, but maybe not. It's not clear to me that denpressure requires a flat earth. Experimentally and actually practically speaking as well.

You could have a globe earth, hermetically sealed like the membrane around a cell and all the properties of denpressure would function exactly the same way as on a domed flat earth. Or am I missing some element of denpressure that requires a planar earth?

Absolutely but in terms of arguing my side we are inside a dome and we live upon uneven ground but we still live with liquids that find a level to any container they sit in.

So?

Since you can increase the pressure inside a pressure bottle of a trapped gas with heat on a balance, and the balance will not indicate a different weight as pressure increases?  Or am I missing something?

Quote from: sceptimatic on April 30, 2023, 05:13:20 AM

Your issue is in not taking into account the stacked layers in the atmosphere

No, your issue is not being able to explain the stack at all and instead acting like appealing to the stack existing will magically explain it.
What makes the layers close to Earth a higher pressure and density?

I explain the stack pretty well for those who want to take the time to understand it.
You spend too much time trying to correlate it to the fiction you studied, so you're never going to tell me you get it or it would savage your internet street cred.

You trying to put internet words into my internet forum mouth

Which is easy to do because you contradict yourself.  And you will not model anything with your delusion.  Like.  If you use object shape to make air resistance negligible, why a more dense steel ball drops at the same rate as a ping pong ball.  Why wouldn’t the steel ball easily 20 times more dense drop 20 times faster than the ping pong ball.

Quote from: sceptimatic on April 30, 2023, 05:13:20 AM

A steam boiler is never a closed system for long.

.

In the sense the person oversimplified the term steam cycle.

Heat up water in a boiler, knock the water out of the steam, (return it to the condensate system) the steam does work across turbine losing energy and pressure, the exhaust dumps into a condenser running at a vacuum.  Condensing the steam to water making a vacuum and collecting the water to pump back to the boiler.

The mass of the system is constant. 

The pressure on the inlet of the turbine can be hundreds of pounds (if not thousands) of pressure with the outlet of the turbine being at a vacuum because of the condenser.  And the cooling action of water ruining through the condenser tubes. 


The steam does not required to be vented into the atmosphere.

A cycle running at steady state with a constant pressure set point at the inlet of the turbine, and a constant vacuum at its outlet because of the condensing of steam in the condenser.

If it never had to be vented then steam trains would never need to be topped up.
It just comes down to what you believe I suppose.

Quote from: sceptimatic on April 30, 2023, 05:13:20 AM

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022

A candle in a close system like a gas bottle will burn just fine until the oxygen is used up. But the actual reaction needs no support from outside the gas bottle to actually occur.  Nothing is robbed or supplied from outside the gas bottle.

Give me an example of a candle burning inside a gas bottle .
 

Well.  Let’s establish something first.  Why wouldn’t a candle burn in a gas bottle with normal atmosphere trapped in it until the oxygen was used up?

Ahh, ok, so you're using a simple container at atmospheric pressure and a lit candle placed inside that will burn until it breaks down the air.
Ok, I have no issue with that.
I thought you mean putting it into a bottle and pressurising it.
No issue, it's clear.

Anyway, so what?

I explain the stack pretty well for those who want to take the time to understand it.

No you haven’t.  You explained a model of gravity.

In a no gravity earth.  Why would the lower pressure of the upper atmosphere hold down the higher pressure of the lower atmosphere and keep it from equalizing.  How can this be used in gas bottles of different pressures tied together by pipe to prevent their pressures from equalizing? 

Quote from: sceptimatic on April 30, 2023, 05:13:20 AM

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022

Four.  How can density remain the same and pressure change?  Like 1 kilogram of oxygen gas trapped in a gas bottle as it heats and cools.

That depends on the vibration of molecules outside as to whether you see small fluctuations in the container.

The gas inside the bottle is trapped.  The gas can’t go across the barrier to the outside of the container.  If the mass of the gas is constant, and not at temperatures and pressures to make it change states.  And volume of the container is constant.  (If you’re worried about expansion and contraction of the bottle, you could compensate with some elaborate piston system to make volume stay constant) how do vibrations make the gas loose or gain mass to change density in a fixed volume.

You know external heat can cause higher pressure inside a container. You know this is down to the agitation/vibration of gas molecules inside.
So you also know you have direct issues from external to internal. It may be sealed but it is never a constant.

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022 on April 30, 2023, 05:43:02 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on April 30, 2023, 05:13:20 AM

A steam boiler is never a closed system for long.

.

In the sense the person oversimplified the term steam cycle.

Heat up water in a boiler, knock the water out of the steam, (return it to the condensate system) the steam does work across turbine losing energy and pressure, the exhaust dumps into a condenser running at a vacuum.  Condensing the steam to water making a vacuum and collecting the water to pump back to the boiler.

The mass of the system is constant. 

The pressure on the inlet of the turbine can be hundreds of pounds (if not thousands) of pressure with the outlet of the turbine being at a vacuum because of the condenser.  And the cooling action of water ruining through the condenser tubes. 


The steam does not required to be vented into the atmosphere.

A cycle running at steady state with a constant pressure set point at the inlet of the turbine, and a constant vacuum at its outlet because of the condensing of steam in the condenser.

If it never had to be vented then steam trains would never need to be topped up.
It just comes down to what you believe I suppose.

Troll.  Trains usually don’t have condensers.

In a closed steam cycle like for ships and power plants, the boiler  vents to the condenser via a turbine where the steam is condensed to water, collected, and pumped back to the boiler. 

You know external heat can cause higher pressure inside a container.

Which has nothing to do with my point.

A fixed amount mass of a gas trapped in a static volume like a gas bottle will stay the same density as pressure changes from heating up and cooling down. 

Noticed you didn’t answer the energy question concerning the magnet.
You still have not addressed the things that kill den-pressure.
When air resistance is made negligible, why does a steel ball and a ping pong ball drop at the same rate.

Air resistance is absolutely never made negligible.
There is always resistance to any dense mass.
So basically a steel ball and a  ping pong ball will never ever fall at the same rate in the exact same environment.

The steel ball is what?  Twenty times more dense than the ping pong ball?  Why doesn’t the steel ball fall twenty times more faster than the ping pong ball in den-pressure?

It would fall significantly faster. Why would you think it wouldn't?

Are you trying to tell me if you dropped a steel ball and a ping pong ball off a skyscraper in the calmest weather, the ping ball will hit the ground at the same time as the steel ball?

Because it appears this is the claim you are trying to make.
Or is it only if you drop it from a few feet off the ground?

Why do things fall faster in a vacuum.

They don't. Vacuums do not exist and can never exist.

As pointed out.  You still have no explanation why the lower pressure of the upper atmosphere keeps the higher pressure at sea level from equalizing in the context of the gas laws.  Over simplified maybe, but gravity does model this for an earth in space.

I explained it perfectly well. If you choose to overlook what was said then you'll just have to try something different or accept you'll never want to understand it.

You know gravity.  The model that allows for accurate bullet trajectory predictions without using the bullet’s density.  But the use of mass and gravity. 

I'm sure you'd like to explain it to me...right?

In your own simple words can you explain how gravity allows for accurate bullet trajectory?

No copy and paste.

How can density remain the same and pressure change?

Friction/vibration/agitation/expansion equals pressure fluctuations.

  Like 1 kilogram of oxygen gas trapped in a gas bottle as it heats and cools.

As above.

 breaks down the air.

The candle doesn’t break down the air.  The nitrogen in the jar’s atmosphere doesn’t react with the candle.  The candle burns and combines the oxygen with carbon.  The mass inside the jar never changes.