Why are flat earthers so dishonest?

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Re: Why are flat earthers so dishonest?
« Reply #270 on: October 24, 2022, 06:11:02 AM »
If you've ever met a religious person, they will use the same analogy, but tweak it that only one religion CAN be right. It always happens to be whatever religion that person happens to follow. A touch of bias anyone?

From an impartial viewpoint however, if most religions contain all the same main ingredients, then they might all be partly right. A splinter religion might offer to be closer to the truth, but generally because they wind up being cults, you could argue they more than likely stray farther from the truth.

Jock Block, it's a very long bow to draw that one of these religions is closer to the truth than all of the others, or that any one of them "has it right." There are also teachings that deal with these matters of the spirit mechanically, which are not religious in flavor.

The best a person can do is pick one teaching or religion, which resonates most strongly with them, and accept it won't be 100% right.
Yes, Timmy is quite like the religious, and appears to be trying to turn science into a religion, a religion where no one is allowed to question his prophets (which most people would just call scientists).

Personally, I prefer the choice of discarding all religions, as I have no reason to think any of them are right (which is technically distinct from thinking they are all wrong).
I also see plenty of common elements as a result of stories passed between them, or caused by the human condition or nature; or elements to make the religion work.

Yes. Tiemeup passionately follows science and looks to science for all his answers. But even Tiemeup accepts that science has it's limits, especially when considering the afterlife.

The more science moves into quantum mechanics, perhaps the closer science will come to treading on religion's toes regarding afterlife concepts.

Who are you talking to about giving up maintaining a cover, Boydsterous?

No passion involved its just being pragmatic.
How else would you suggest trying to find answers if not through the scientific method?

Science never proclaims it know everything, the opposite is true, unlike Jack Black, though how he imagines he knows thing with out the hard work and endeavour of all the past and present scientific experts is beyond me. You would think reading what he has to say he discovered bloody everything when in reality his contribution to world knowledge has been nil, nothing, zero.

He gives the impression however that everything he knows has come through his own efforts! delusional or what?

Apparently he has devised a novel experiment to prove the world is  spherical, though he prefers to keep that one secret!

Our entire life's journey is experienced from within our body, looking out and receiving and interacting with the physical world. Science is exclusively concerned with the physical world of which our body is a part of. What science cannot do, but you can do, is look inward for answers.

My work is primarily concerned with the physical world, but I've had my moments of looking inwards and getting physical results.

Admittedly, I haven't followed Jock Block long enough to form an opinion, except he is one of the most prolific posters on this site.

This looking inwards  sounds rather woo based and open to extreme bias. It’s possibly what Jack Black uses.

Joking aside what you propose is I think very limiting and in reality is just going to deliver answers about how you feel about things as opposed to providing definitive and objective answers.

The reason why I think, it’s just what I think I’m not saying it’s true, is that people have no control over its process and it’s so far removed from everyday life that they feel threatened. Just look what happens if you mention experts around here. Many people don’t like the idea that people with certain professional expertise can do things or know things way beyond what they can do or know. It freaks them out.

It’s difficult to almost impossible for individuals to make new discoveries. It’s all about big groups with lots of funding and high tech gear and lots of time that make significant discoveries. Could any single person take images such as the JWT has taken or contribute to advances in quantum computing? I don’t think so which is why certain people feel distrustful of science.

This game of ping pong between you and Jock, bores me.

I think some people put all their eggs in the science basket, because they think it is the safest bet. It makes them feel secure. But look at all the times, scientific theories have been revised or discarded. Science is dynamic.
For the overall shape of Earth to be flat, requires billions of people and billions of pieces of information about Earth to be wrong. Do the maths.

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Timeisup

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Re: Why are flat earthers so dishonest?
« Reply #271 on: October 24, 2022, 06:47:55 AM »
If you've ever met a religious person, they will use the same analogy, but tweak it that only one religion CAN be right. It always happens to be whatever religion that person happens to follow. A touch of bias anyone?

From an impartial viewpoint however, if most religions contain all the same main ingredients, then they might all be partly right. A splinter religion might offer to be closer to the truth, but generally because they wind up being cults, you could argue they more than likely stray farther from the truth.

Jock Block, it's a very long bow to draw that one of these religions is closer to the truth than all of the others, or that any one of them "has it right." There are also teachings that deal with these matters of the spirit mechanically, which are not religious in flavor.

The best a person can do is pick one teaching or religion, which resonates most strongly with them, and accept it won't be 100% right.
Yes, Timmy is quite like the religious, and appears to be trying to turn science into a religion, a religion where no one is allowed to question his prophets (which most people would just call scientists).

Personally, I prefer the choice of discarding all religions, as I have no reason to think any of them are right (which is technically distinct from thinking they are all wrong).
I also see plenty of common elements as a result of stories passed between them, or caused by the human condition or nature; or elements to make the religion work.

Yes. Tiemeup passionately follows science and looks to science for all his answers. But even Tiemeup accepts that science has it's limits, especially when considering the afterlife.

The more science moves into quantum mechanics, perhaps the closer science will come to treading on religion's toes regarding afterlife concepts.

Who are you talking to about giving up maintaining a cover, Boydsterous?

No passion involved its just being pragmatic.
How else would you suggest trying to find answers if not through the scientific method?

Science never proclaims it know everything, the opposite is true, unlike Jack Black, though how he imagines he knows thing with out the hard work and endeavour of all the past and present scientific experts is beyond me. You would think reading what he has to say he discovered bloody everything when in reality his contribution to world knowledge has been nil, nothing, zero.

He gives the impression however that everything he knows has come through his own efforts! delusional or what?

Apparently he has devised a novel experiment to prove the world is  spherical, though he prefers to keep that one secret!

Our entire life's journey is experienced from within our body, looking out and receiving and interacting with the physical world. Science is exclusively concerned with the physical world of which our body is a part of. What science cannot do, but you can do, is look inward for answers.

My work is primarily concerned with the physical world, but I've had my moments of looking inwards and getting physical results.

Admittedly, I haven't followed Jock Block long enough to form an opinion, except he is one of the most prolific posters on this site.

This looking inwards  sounds rather woo based and open to extreme bias. It’s possibly what Jack Black uses.

Joking aside what you propose is I think very limiting and in reality is just going to deliver answers about how you feel about things as opposed to providing definitive and objective answers.

The reason why I think, it’s just what I think I’m not saying it’s true, is that people have no control over its process and it’s so far removed from everyday life that they feel threatened. Just look what happens if you mention experts around here. Many people don’t like the idea that people with certain professional expertise can do things or know things way beyond what they can do or know. It freaks them out.

It’s difficult to almost impossible for individuals to make new discoveries. It’s all about big groups with lots of funding and high tech gear and lots of time that make significant discoveries. Could any single person take images such as the JWT has taken or contribute to advances in quantum computing? I don’t think so which is why certain people feel distrustful of science.

This game of ping pong between you and Jock, bores me.

I think some people put all their eggs in the science basket, because they think it is the safest bet. It makes them feel secure. But look at all the times, scientific theories have been revised or discarded. Science is dynamic.

I agree it is boring. It’s totally tedious.

The fact that Jack thinks one of those ancient peoples could well be right about post death is clearly logic gone mad. Did it not occur to him that if one of them were correct we would know about it! Such a revelation would have become common knowledge. The fact that it’s not happened and no one knows tends to point, dice rolling aside, to me, once more being correct.

What other basket is there? Do you have one in mind?

That’s the whole point of science! It’s not a static thing it’s dynamic nor is it uniform.

"I can accept that some aspects of FE belief are true, while others are fiction."

Jack Black

Now that is a laugh!

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Timeisup

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Re: Why are flat earthers so dishonest?
« Reply #272 on: October 24, 2022, 06:59:51 AM »
I noticed you ignored the dice yet again.

Once more, a standard 6 sided dice is rolled with the result hidden.
5 people each say it is a different integer from 1 to 5, even though they have no way to know.
You come in and claim that because they don't know, they must be wrong, and thus the dice could not be on any digit from 1 to 5.
That is effectively you claiming it must be 6, even though you don't know, and thus by your own "reasoning" you must be wrong.

Care to address what is wrong with this yet?
Either what is logically wrong with it, or why it shouldn't apply?

So tell us Jack what is your contribution to world knowledge I for one can’t wait to be dazzled!
Why would I want to dox myself, just to prove myself to you?
You would likely dismiss it as a lie anyway, so what's the point?

How about you stop deflecting (now trying to shift the burden of proof), and start trying to justify your BS?

If you want to claim I have contributed nothing to science, the burden is on you to prove it, not on me to disprove it.

Where have I praised anyone or elevated them! That is 100% pure Jack Black bull shit!
How about in the thread where you chose to defend the claim that the only way anyone can determine the shape of Earth is by accepting what an expert says it is.
That sure sounds like elevating them.

Here is another example:
Our complete reliance on experts is totally fundamental to our lives. You wish to live without experts then go live a solitary life naked on a desert island with no tools other than what you can make for yourself.

Here is another:
Would you not rather learn from a proven expert rather than from someone who has no more than a notion combined with a uniformed opinion? Give me an informed proven expert every time rather some half baked idiot on Youtube.
Here you are implying that if they aren't an expert then they are some half baked idiot.
Again, praising experts as the source of all knowledge and acting like anyone who isn't an expert is a complete imbecile.

Who treats people like imbeciles?
You.
And then when you get called out on it you resort to the same old dishonest BS of appealing to some of the latest experiments, all so you can pretend normal people are completely incapable of figuring out anything themselves so all they can do is ask an expert.

This is even exemplified by your strawman of my position:
Your the one who imagines they can test all sorts of things out for themselves!
I have never suggested anyone is capable of testing everything out by themselves.
But you want to pretend that people cannot figure out anything themselves. The only thing can do is go and read what an expert had said.
And this is another example of you attacking regular people and elevating and praising experts.

Ignored your dice! Bet your life!

Just in the same way you ignore all the known facts!

Did it not occur to you if one of your ancient dudes discover the answer about post death it would have become common knowledge!

The fact that it’s  not common knowledge and still unknown suggests it has always been unknown.

Elevation is entirely different from acknowledging that some people know a lot more than you about certain things, no elevation required. It does not make them any better it just means they know more about certain subjects! It’s how the world works.

You do like to make stuff up don’t you!

So Jack what have you yourself discovered or verified this week, this month, this year, ever?

You keep going on about people verifying things so what have YOU verified and what methods and protocols did you use?

Also what was that unique knowledge you discovered? Your really giving that question a body swerve!



"I can accept that some aspects of FE belief are true, while others are fiction."

Jack Black

Now that is a laugh!

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Themightykabool

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Re: Why are flat earthers so dishonest?
« Reply #273 on: October 24, 2022, 07:14:59 AM »
Christianity/ other major religions are basically common knowledge atthiis point.




So back to dice.
Bill says he saw the dice.
He got special privledge to peak (he died and came back).
Or he was told by an angel what the answer was.
So the onus is to examine an impossible scenairo amd explain it.
Or show he has a history of being a liar face.

So jackb game stands.

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JackBlack

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Re: Why are flat earthers so dishonest?
« Reply #274 on: October 24, 2022, 01:16:55 PM »
The fact that Jack thinks one of those ancient peoples could well be right about post death is clearly logic gone mad.
The fact that you think they must be wrong, just because they can't be certain, especially about a topic such as this, is clearly madness.

Again, the simple dice analogy.
Can you demonstrate any flaw with it, because it shows why this line of thinking of yours is invalid.
Once more, a standard 6 sided dice is rolled with the result hidden.
5 people each say it is a different integer from 1 to 5, even though they have no way to know.
The religious people are like the first 5 people, each claiming something about the dice, that they don't know.
You come in and claim that because they don't know, they must be wrong, and thus the dice could not be on any digit from 1 to 5.
That is effectively you claiming it must be 6, even though you don't know, and thus by your own "reasoning" you must be wrong.

Did it not occur to him that if one of them were correct we would know about it!
Again you fail to grasp the difference between being correct, and knowing that you are correct and being able to demonstrate that you are.
You can be correct without knowing that you are and without being able to demonstrate it.

Again, back to the dice analogy, the point is that no one knows what the answer is.
But one of those 5 people could be correct.

In the related analogy with 6 people we KNOW one of the 6 must be correct, but we don't know which one.

There is a fundamentally difference between being correcting and other people knowing you are correct.

Such a revelation would have become common knowledge.
Why?
Because you want an excuse to dismiss it?
And how many people know about heaven? I would say that at least in the west it is fairly commonly known about.

The fact that it’s not happened and no one knows tends to point, dice rolling aside, to me, once more being correct.
The fact you need to continually deflect from a simple logical argument which clearly demonstrates the flaw in your "reasoning", and resort to strawmen quite clearly demonstrates that once again you are spouting garbage.

If you were actually correct, you would have dealt with the dice analogy. You would have explained the logical flaw with it, rather than just dismissing it as "illogic".
You would have actually justified your claims, rather than making logical leap after logical leap.

Ignored your dice! Bet your life!
Of course you would. Why would you bother addressing something that so clearly demonstrates that you are wrong?

Every time you ignore this simple analogy you are demonstrating that you likely know you are spouting garbage, but you refuse to acknowledge it.

Just in the same way you ignore all the known facts!
That would be you ignoring the facts.
Can you provide a single example of a fact I have ignored? No.

Elevation is entirely different from acknowledging that some people know a lot more than you about certain things
Acknowledging that some people know more is vastly different to acting like everyone who is not an expert is an imbecile, incapable of doing anything themselves and who must just accept the word of an expert to gain any knowledge.

You do like to make stuff up don’t you!
Again, I'll leave the fiction to you.

Also what was that unique knowledge you discovered? Your really giving that question a body swerve!
That's rich coming from you, as the only reason that was brought up at all was your pathetic insults, which are nothing more than a pathetic attempt to dodge the fact that yet again you are spouting garbage.

I am under no obligation to dox myself to you just to demonstrate your pathetic, baseless insult is wrong.
If you want to claim I have done nothing, the burden is on you to demonstrate it.
But that is entirely irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

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Username

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Re: Why are flat earthers so dishonest?
« Reply #275 on: October 24, 2022, 02:20:17 PM »


Simple question: Have you worked out the nature of the universe? If no, then you cant be sure that how our human eyes and human mind perceives things is all there is. Yes, how we operate works well enough for us. That is the point.

What flat earth model do you think allows enough room for anything with mass to speed around at 99 percent the speed of light without hitting the waters of haven, a dome, a celestial sphere, or a firmament.

Please be specific how a flat earth model allows what is asked. 
What are you babbling on about? What flat earth theory claims such a thing? Oh right none of them.

Quote
99 percent the speed of light
Also, you clearly don't understand relativity.
If ou can't argue both sides, yu understand neither

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Timeisup

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Re: Why are flat earthers so dishonest?
« Reply #276 on: October 24, 2022, 03:05:28 PM »
Christianity/ other major religions are basically common knowledge atthiis point.




So back to dice.
Bill says he saw the dice.
He got special privledge to peak (he died and came back).
Or he was told by an angel what the answer was.
So the onus is to examine an impossible scenairo amd explain it.
Or show he has a history of being a liar face.

So jackb game stands.

I say poor Bill.
"I can accept that some aspects of FE belief are true, while others are fiction."

Jack Black

Now that is a laugh!

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Timeisup

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Re: Why are flat earthers so dishonest?
« Reply #277 on: October 24, 2022, 03:11:53 PM »
The fact that Jack thinks one of those ancient peoples could well be right about post death is clearly logic gone mad.
The fact that you think they must be wrong, just because they can't be certain, especially about a topic such as this, is clearly madness.

Again, the simple dice analogy.
Can you demonstrate any flaw with it, because it shows why this line of thinking of yours is invalid.
Once more, a standard 6 sided dice is rolled with the result hidden.
5 people each say it is a different integer from 1 to 5, even though they have no way to know.
The religious people are like the first 5 people, each claiming something about the dice, that they don't know.
You come in and claim that because they don't know, they must be wrong, and thus the dice could not be on any digit from 1 to 5.
That is effectively you claiming it must be 6, even though you don't know, and thus by your own "reasoning" you must be wrong.

Did it not occur to him that if one of them were correct we would know about it!
Again you fail to grasp the difference between being correct, and knowing that you are correct and being able to demonstrate that you are.
You can be correct without knowing that you are and without being able to demonstrate it.

Again, back to the dice analogy, the point is that no one knows what the answer is.
But one of those 5 people could be correct.

In the related analogy with 6 people we KNOW one of the 6 must be correct, but we don't know which one.

There is a fundamentally difference between being correcting and other people knowing you are correct.

Such a revelation would have become common knowledge.
Why?
Because you want an excuse to dismiss it?
And how many people know about heaven? I would say that at least in the west it is fairly commonly known about.

The fact that it’s not happened and no one knows tends to point, dice rolling aside, to me, once more being correct.
The fact you need to continually deflect from a simple logical argument which clearly demonstrates the flaw in your "reasoning", and resort to strawmen quite clearly demonstrates that once again you are spouting garbage.

If you were actually correct, you would have dealt with the dice analogy. You would have explained the logical flaw with it, rather than just dismissing it as "illogic".
You would have actually justified your claims, rather than making logical leap after logical leap.

Ignored your dice! Bet your life!
Of course you would. Why would you bother addressing something that so clearly demonstrates that you are wrong?

Every time you ignore this simple analogy you are demonstrating that you likely know you are spouting garbage, but you refuse to acknowledge it.

Just in the same way you ignore all the known facts!
That would be you ignoring the facts.
Can you provide a single example of a fact I have ignored? No.

Elevation is entirely different from acknowledging that some people know a lot more than you about certain things
Acknowledging that some people know more is vastly different to acting like everyone who is not an expert is an imbecile, incapable of doing anything themselves and who must just accept the word of an expert to gain any knowledge.

You do like to make stuff up don’t you!
Again, I'll leave the fiction to you.

Also what was that unique knowledge you discovered? Your really giving that question a body swerve!
That's rich coming from you, as the only reason that was brought up at all was your pathetic insults, which are nothing more than a pathetic attempt to dodge the fact that yet again you are spouting garbage.

I am under no obligation to dox myself to you just to demonstrate your pathetic, baseless insult is wrong.
If you want to claim I have done nothing, the burden is on you to demonstrate it.
But that is entirely irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

Look Jack shove your dice up a place where the sun don’t shine.

So what have you discovered today?

And what’s this knowledge that you allegedly discovered? You say you have discovered something but  most likely it’s, like all the stuff you claim, pure BS.

Come on Jack you need to admit the truth and  face the facts.

You say you need no experts and can work everything out for yourself. I asked for an example of you doing this with workings…. and nothing! It’s as if you are making it all up!

Then you claimed you have added to world knowledge and when asked what this knowledge was you discovered…. Again, a big fat nothing.

It’s just like the time when you claimed you had devised a super dooper novel experiment  to prove the earth was something or other….   But again when asked to reveal this amazing experiment….. a big fat nothing!

I see a pattern developing Jack a pattern that leads me to believe  you are a fraud! and a purveyor of pure BS!

« Last Edit: October 24, 2022, 03:22:55 PM by Timeisup »
"I can accept that some aspects of FE belief are true, while others are fiction."

Jack Black

Now that is a laugh!

?

DataOverFlow2022

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Re: Why are flat earthers so dishonest?
« Reply #278 on: October 24, 2022, 06:31:11 PM »

Also, you clearly don't understand relativity.

And you don’t understand the earth is demonstrably spherical in shape? 

So I guess we all have our shortcomings. 

« Last Edit: October 25, 2022, 01:19:09 AM by DataOverFlow2022 »

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DataOverFlow2022

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Re: Why are flat earthers so dishonest?
« Reply #279 on: October 24, 2022, 06:36:59 PM »

Also, you clearly don't understand relativity.

At least it includes curvature?


Quote
General Relativity
 
https://landgreen.github.io/physics/notes/relativity/general/

General relativity describes gravity as the curvature of space and time, or spacetime.


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JackBlack

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Re: Why are flat earthers so dishonest?
« Reply #280 on: October 25, 2022, 01:26:04 AM »
Look Jack shove your dice up a place where the sun don’t shine.
You sure do hate things which expose your BS don't you?

And what’s this knowledge that you allegedly discovered? You say you have discovered something but  most likely it’s, like all the stuff you claim, pure BS.
You mean like most things in relation to you, it is just objecting to your delusional BS.

If you want to claim I haven't discovered anything, the burden is on you.
I am under no obligation to prove you wrong. And me not wanting to dox myself doesn't magically make your pure BS correct.

Come on Jack you need to admit the truth and  face the facts.
Follow your own advice.

You say you need no experts and can work everything out for yourself.
Where?
Provide the quote or stop spouting this BS.

Then you claimed you have added to world knowledge
Correction: you fasley claimed that I have contriibuted nothing, that I have added nothing, and I called you out on your BS.

It’s just like the time when you claimed you had devised a super dooper novel experiment  to prove the earth was something
You mean it is just like the time where I exposed your BS, you were upset and blatantly lied, pretending I claimed something I never did.
At no point did I claim I had devised a brand new never before seen way.
But because you couldn't actually defend the BS you chose to, you had to blatantly lie about my position in order to pretend you were correct.

It most certainly is a pattern.
You spout pure BS or choose to defend pure BS, and when you can't, you just attack those calling you out on your BS, doing whatever you can to deflect from your BS being exposed, and make up all sorts of strawmen to knock down.

Now again, back to the dice.
Once more, a standard 6 sided dice is rolled with the result hidden.
5 people each say it is a different integer from 1 to 5, even though they have no way to know.
The religious people are like the first 5 people, each claiming something about the dice, that they don't know.
You come in and claim that because they don't know, they must be wrong, and thus the dice could not be on any digit from 1 to 5.
That is effectively you claiming it must be 6, even though you don't know, and thus by your own "reasoning" you must be wrong.


Can you show anything wrong with that logical argument exposing the problem with your position, or can you only throw a childish tantrum and refuse to discuss it because you know it exposes your BS?

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Smoke Machine

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Re: Why are flat earthers so dishonest?
« Reply #281 on: October 25, 2022, 06:25:50 AM »
Look Jack shove your dice up a place where the sun don’t shine.
You sure do hate things which expose your BS don't you?

And what’s this knowledge that you allegedly discovered? You say you have discovered something but  most likely it’s, like all the stuff you claim, pure BS.
You mean like most things in relation to you, it is just objecting to your delusional BS.

If you want to claim I haven't discovered anything, the burden is on you.
I am under no obligation to prove you wrong. And me not wanting to dox myself doesn't magically make your pure BS correct.

Come on Jack you need to admit the truth and  face the facts.
Follow your own advice.

You say you need no experts and can work everything out for yourself.
Where?
Provide the quote or stop spouting this BS.

Then you claimed you have added to world knowledge
Correction: you fasley claimed that I have contriibuted nothing, that I have added nothing, and I called you out on your BS.

It’s just like the time when you claimed you had devised a super dooper novel experiment  to prove the earth was something
You mean it is just like the time where I exposed your BS, you were upset and blatantly lied, pretending I claimed something I never did.
At no point did I claim I had devised a brand new never before seen way.
But because you couldn't actually defend the BS you chose to, you had to blatantly lie about my position in order to pretend you were correct.

It most certainly is a pattern.
You spout pure BS or choose to defend pure BS, and when you can't, you just attack those calling you out on your BS, doing whatever you can to deflect from your BS being exposed, and make up all sorts of strawmen to knock down.

Now again, back to the dice.
Once more, a standard 6 sided dice is rolled with the result hidden.
5 people each say it is a different integer from 1 to 5, even though they have no way to know.
The religious people are like the first 5 people, each claiming something about the dice, that they don't know.
You come in and claim that because they don't know, they must be wrong, and thus the dice could not be on any digit from 1 to 5.
That is effectively you claiming it must be 6, even though you don't know, and thus by your own "reasoning" you must be wrong.


Can you show anything wrong with that logical argument exposing the problem with your position, or can you only throw a childish tantrum and refuse to discuss it because you know it exposes your BS?

I don't think the dice analogy is useful in this debate. The dice analogy makes an assumption that the correct answer to the problem (the greatest life mystery) is on one side of the dice. There is no evidence that one of the world's existing religions has got it right about the afterlife. But what if all sides are right about an aspect? The dice is useless.

The Christian man desires to see God seated on a throne when he dies and goes to heaven. A Buddhist desires to see Buddha in the lotus position when he dies and goes to heaven. The atheist believes there is "nothing" after life. The sinner believes there is hell awaiting him. If one of the stages of dying is the consciousness going to wherever your beliefs or desires during life  lead you, in your imagination, then are all not correct?

How about this. Try seeing the world as a place containing insides and outsides. Like your human body has an outside and an inside. But the moment you go inside your body you find it is composed of layers of organs and systems, each with their own outsides and insides, right down to cells, atoms, etc. Or you can go outside yourself and start with the actual planet itself......

For the overall shape of Earth to be flat, requires billions of people and billions of pieces of information about Earth to be wrong. Do the maths.

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Themightykabool

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Re: Why are flat earthers so dishonest?
« Reply #282 on: October 25, 2022, 10:17:59 AM »
i think the analogy is decently applicable.


using scientific estimates they smart guys estimate a big bang.
they estimate an age.
but they can't claim knowing the dice = 6.


but this is because the analogy is dumbed down to timiesies level where he flat out said he knows (KNOWS) the afterlife.
he has about as much knowledge of the afterlife that the shamans have about the afterlife.

his claims are as valid as theirs.
yet he doesn't seem to see the hypocrisy.

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boydster

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Re: Why are flat earthers so dishonest?
« Reply #283 on: October 25, 2022, 01:27:17 PM »
Smoke Machine is going to keep championing for Timmy. You can ask yourself why that might be, but you probably already have an idea. Personally though, I'm a much bigger fan of DataOverFlow's work in trying to completely dismantle Relativity than I am of Timmy trying to auto-fellate his boner for the experts he prays to.

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JackBlack

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Re: Why are flat earthers so dishonest?
« Reply #284 on: October 25, 2022, 01:42:27 PM »
I don't think the dice analogy is useful in this debate. The dice analogy makes an assumption that the correct answer to the problem (the greatest life mystery) is on one side of the dice. There is no evidence that one of the world's existing religions has got it right about the afterlife. But what if all sides are right about an aspect? The dice is useless.

The Christian man desires to see God seated on a throne when he dies and goes to heaven. A Buddhist desires to see Buddha in the lotus position when he dies and goes to heaven. The atheist believes there is "nothing" after life. The sinner believes there is hell awaiting him. If one of the stages of dying is the consciousness going to wherever your beliefs or desires during life  lead you, in your imagination, then are all not correct?

How about this. Try seeing the world as a place containing insides and outsides. Like your human body has an outside and an inside. But the moment you go inside your body you find it is composed of layers of organs and systems, each with their own outsides and insides, right down to cells, atoms, etc. Or you can go outside yourself and start with the actual planet itself......
It isn't a perfect analogy, but it is certainly applicable for the point it is making, and is intentionally simple.

It is highlighting the distinction between being correct and knowing that you are correct and being able to demonstrate that you are correct.

For the case of 5 people, one of them could be right, in fact, it is more likely that one of them is correct than all of them being incorrect.
But they have no way to know they are correct, nor can they prove they are correct (at least not until the dice has been revealed).
But that inability to know you are correct or demonstrate it doesn't mean you are incorrect.
So Timmy claiming that all of them are wrong is just as baseless as them saying they are correct.

Yes, there is no evidence they got it right, but there is no evidence they got it wrong either.
So someone saying that there is no chance for what they are saying about the afterlife being true is just as unsupported as someone claiming you will go to heaven.

As for what you have said, you have displayed one side.
The Christian views of the afterlife are not simply desiring to see God seated on a throne.
Instead it is a belief that unless saved by Jesus you will burn in hell, and only those who accept Jesus as their saviour will be spared this torment from their evil tyrant.
Those who would recognise themselves as sinners likely also believe that and believe they will be saved and think they will go to heaven.
The ones that would go to hell in that fairy tale are those who are likely to reject it all as a load of garbage and not call themselves sinners.

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Themightykabool

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Re: Why are flat earthers so dishonest?
« Reply #285 on: October 25, 2022, 01:42:46 PM »
timieises is smoke?



i can say i actually pay too much attention to smoke's posts to know smoke's personality.

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Themightykabool

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Re: Why are flat earthers so dishonest?
« Reply #286 on: October 25, 2022, 01:43:34 PM »

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Timeisup

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Re: Why are flat earthers so dishonest?
« Reply #287 on: October 28, 2022, 04:17:07 AM »
Smoke Machine is going to keep championing for Timmy. You can ask yourself why that might be, but you probably already have an idea. Personally though, I'm a much bigger fan of DataOverFlow's work in trying to completely dismantle Relativity than I am of Timmy trying to auto-fellate his boner for the experts he prays to.

Its interesting that you never address the points at issue. Mainly because you cant.

To cover for your inability to put together a reasonable a=counter argument you go for the character assassination.

And you call your self a mod!

I call you less than pathetic.
"I can accept that some aspects of FE belief are true, while others are fiction."

Jack Black

Now that is a laugh!

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Themightykabool

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Re: Why are flat earthers so dishonest?
« Reply #288 on: October 28, 2022, 04:21:24 AM »
Irs interesting....


Says the hypocrite

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Timeisup

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Re: Why are flat earthers so dishonest?
« Reply #289 on: October 28, 2022, 04:21:42 AM »
I don't think the dice analogy is useful in this debate. The dice analogy makes an assumption that the correct answer to the problem (the greatest life mystery) is on one side of the dice. There is no evidence that one of the world's existing religions has got it right about the afterlife. But what if all sides are right about an aspect? The dice is useless.

The Christian man desires to see God seated on a throne when he dies and goes to heaven. A Buddhist desires to see Buddha in the lotus position when he dies and goes to heaven. The atheist believes there is "nothing" after life. The sinner believes there is hell awaiting him. If one of the stages of dying is the consciousness going to wherever your beliefs or desires during life  lead you, in your imagination, then are all not correct?

How about this. Try seeing the world as a place containing insides and outsides. Like your human body has an outside and an inside. But the moment you go inside your body you find it is composed of layers of organs and systems, each with their own outsides and insides, right down to cells, atoms, etc. Or you can go outside yourself and start with the actual planet itself......
It isn't a perfect analogy, but it is certainly applicable for the point it is making, and is intentionally simple.

It is highlighting the distinction between being correct and knowing that you are correct and being able to demonstrate that you are correct.

For the case of 5 people, one of them could be right, in fact, it is more likely that one of them is correct than all of them being incorrect.
But they have no way to know they are correct, nor can they prove they are correct (at least not until the dice has been revealed).
But that inability to know you are correct or demonstrate it doesn't mean you are incorrect.
So Timmy claiming that all of them are wrong is just as baseless as them saying they are correct.

Yes, there is no evidence they got it right, but there is no evidence they got it wrong either.
So someone saying that there is no chance for what they are saying about the afterlife being true is just as unsupported as someone claiming you will go to heaven.

As for what you have said, you have displayed one side.
The Christian views of the afterlife are not simply desiring to see God seated on a throne.
Instead it is a belief that unless saved by Jesus you will burn in hell, and only those who accept Jesus as their saviour will be spared this torment from their evil tyrant.
Those who would recognise themselves as sinners likely also believe that and believe they will be saved and think they will go to heaven.
The ones that would go to hell in that fairy tale are those who are likely to reject it all as a load of garbage and not call themselves sinners.

Perfect!


But of course you would!

What evidence? or are you going to keep that a secret?

Im still waiting to hear about your discovery or are you going to keep that a secret to?

AS for your drivel about Christianity you can keep that, like your dice to yourself.

How about you provide that evidence you referred to and how about you put your money where your mouth is and present details of this alleged discovery of yours, or is it no more than just deflection and lies?
"I can accept that some aspects of FE belief are true, while others are fiction."

Jack Black

Now that is a laugh!

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Timeisup

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Re: Why are flat earthers so dishonest?
« Reply #290 on: October 28, 2022, 04:22:18 AM »
Irs interesting....


Says the hypocrite

How so.
"I can accept that some aspects of FE belief are true, while others are fiction."

Jack Black

Now that is a laugh!

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JackBlack

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Re: Why are flat earthers so dishonest?
« Reply #291 on: October 28, 2022, 04:41:49 AM »
Its interesting that you never address the points at issue. Mainly because you cant.
It's interesting that you feel the need to repeatedly project your own inadequacies onto others.

I call you less than pathetic.
So character assassination then?

Im still waiting to hear about your discovery or are you going to keep that a secret to?
You mean your strawman's discovery?
Why don't you go ask your strawman?

How about you provide that evidence you referred to
Did you bother reading my post?
I clearly said there is no evidence either way.
That means there is no evidence that they are correct, but also no evidence that they are wrong.
And that makes you claim that what they are saying is wrong just as baseless as their claims.

Again, not hard to understand and the dice analogy makes that quite clear.
No wonder you feel the need to avoid it so much, rather than addressing this simple point which has been raised against your claim.

Once more, a standard 6 sided dice is rolled with the result hidden.
5 people each say it is a different integer from 1 to 5, even though they have no way to know.
The religious people are like the first 5 people, each claiming something about the dice, that they don't know.
You come in and claim that because they don't know, they must be wrong, and thus the dice could not be on any digit from 1 to 5.
That is effectively you claiming it must be 6, even though you don't know, and thus by your own "reasoning" you must be wrong.

Can you show anything wrong with that logical argument exposing the problem with your position?

How so.
Because you are doing the very thing you accuse others of.

You made a claim, a simple clear objection was raised to this claim of yours, and you have repeatedly refused to address it.
Because you can't address it, you resort to repeatedly insulting others, going for a character assassination.
You are doing the very thing you are accusing others of.

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disputeone

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Re: Why are flat earthers so dishonest?
« Reply #292 on: October 28, 2022, 09:04:44 PM »
using scientific estimates they smart guys estimate a big bang.

Do you know how these smart guys "estimate a big bang"? Because I do, the evidence isn't as solid as you'd think and relies mainly on redshift.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redshift

It's a good enough theory don't get me wrong. It's probably the best theory we have.

You shouldn't sell yourself short Kabool. Who told you that some people are just smarter than you and you should defer to them. I've never liked that attitude, "people way smarter than you made something really special."

They aren't smarter than me, lol.
Why would that be inciting terrorism?  Lorddave was merely describing a type of shop we have here in the US, a bomb-gun shop.  A shop that sells bomb-guns.

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Themightykabool

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Re: Why are flat earthers so dishonest?
« Reply #293 on: October 28, 2022, 09:12:23 PM »
sorry you missed the point.
the point was it's a theory.
it's an estimate.
timeies doesn't KNOW shit as per dice analogy.

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disputeone

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Re: Why are flat earthers so dishonest?
« Reply #294 on: October 28, 2022, 09:24:13 PM »
What really fascinates me about the average person is their humility and submission in the face of perceived authority, in contradistinction to their arrogance and aggression towards people who question authority.

It's a testament to how powerful propaganda is.
Why would that be inciting terrorism?  Lorddave was merely describing a type of shop we have here in the US, a bomb-gun shop.  A shop that sells bomb-guns.

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Timeisup

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Re: Why are flat earthers so dishonest?
« Reply #295 on: October 29, 2022, 06:05:28 AM »
Its interesting that you never address the points at issue. Mainly because you cant.
It's interesting that you feel the need to repeatedly project your own inadequacies onto others.

I call you less than pathetic.
So character assassination then?

Im still waiting to hear about your discovery or are you going to keep that a secret to?
You mean your strawman's discovery?
Why don't you go ask your strawman?

How about you provide that evidence you referred to
Did you bother reading my post?
I clearly said there is no evidence either way.
That means there is no evidence that they are correct, but also no evidence that they are wrong.
And that makes you claim that what they are saying is wrong just as baseless as their claims.

Again, not hard to understand and the dice analogy makes that quite clear.
No wonder you feel the need to avoid it so much, rather than addressing this simple point which has been raised against your claim.

Once more, a standard 6 sided dice is rolled with the result hidden.
5 people each say it is a different integer from 1 to 5, even though they have no way to know.
The religious people are like the first 5 people, each claiming something about the dice, that they don't know.
You come in and claim that because they don't know, they must be wrong, and thus the dice could not be on any digit from 1 to 5.
That is effectively you claiming it must be 6, even though you don't know, and thus by your own "reasoning" you must be wrong.

Can you show anything wrong with that logical argument exposing the problem with your position?

How so.
Because you are doing the very thing you accuse others of.

You made a claim, a simple clear objection was raised to this claim of yours, and you have repeatedly refused to address it.
Because you can't address it, you resort to repeatedly insulting others, going for a character assassination.
You are doing the very thing you are accusing others of.


It's amazing how so easily you can constantly convince yourself you are correct even when reality and the facts say otherwise.

You appear to believe, despite having zero proof, that one of those many religions could have been right about life after death despite the indisputable fact that here and now in 2022 we have little clue about about the answer to that question. Are you claiming that the answer has been lost?  For I imagine if such an answer ever did exist it certainly would not have been forgotten.

Then again you have a track record of ignoring reality and the facts when it suits you.

The fact that today in 2022 we have no ideas about the truth in relation to life after death points to the fact that we never knew the truth.
"I can accept that some aspects of FE belief are true, while others are fiction."

Jack Black

Now that is a laugh!

*

JackBlack

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Re: Why are flat earthers so dishonest?
« Reply #296 on: October 29, 2022, 02:12:35 PM »
It's amazing how so easily you can constantly convince yourself you are correct even when reality and the facts say otherwise.
Why not present that statement in a more honest way?
It is entirely unsurprising that I can easily convince myself that I am correct, when I am capable of presenting simple logical arguments backed by facts (including facts which you accept) which support my position and show faults in your position, which you repeatedly refuse to engage with, which you are entirely incapable of refuting; and when instead of even attempting to support your position you instead typically resort to strawmanning me and trying to make demands that I prove or provide something I never claimed; all while being completely incapable of providing anything that shows I am wrong.

When faced with all that, why wouldn't I be convinced I am correct?
The potentially amazing thing is how in the light of all that you still think you are correct.

If you were correct you would have demonstrated the fault with my argument.
Instead you just pathetically dismiss it as illogic and refuse to engage with it, as if you know it demonstrates the fault in your claim and you know you can't refute it.

Here it is again, if you think I am wrong, you should be able to clearly demonstrate what is wrong with my argument:
A standard 6 sided dice is rolled with the result hidden.
5 people each say it is a different integer from 1 to 5, even though they have no way to know.
The religious people are like the first 5 people, each claiming something about the dice, that they don't know.
You come in and claim that because they don't know, they must be wrong, and thus the dice could not be on any digit from 1 to 5.
That is effectively you claiming it must be 6, even though you don't know, and thus by your own "reasoning" you must be wrong.

You appear to believe, despite having zero proof, that one of those many religions could have been right about life after death despite the indisputable fact that here and now in 2022 we have little clue about about the answer to that question.
What do you mean despite the fact?
That very fact is the proof that supports my position.

The fact that we have no idea what happens after death means we cannot honestly claim that all the religions must be wrong about what happens after death.
Just like in the dice analogy, the fact that we don't know what the dice landed on means we cannot honestly claim that those people who are just guessing must be wrong about what the dice landed in.

In order to know the religions are wrong, or that the people guessing are wrong, we need to know at least enough to show that they are wrong. And we don't for either case.

You appear to believe, despite having zero proof to support your position, and providing facts which refute your position, that all these religions are wrong, not simply that they don't know, but that they have no chance of being correct, even though you have absolutely nothing to support that belief of yours.

Are you claiming that the answer has been lost?
No. Considering I am not claiming that one of these is correct, and there are still plenty of religions out there and you can easily find what they claim happens after death, why would I claim the answer has been lost?

Then again you have a track record of ignoring reality and the facts when it suits you.
You sure do love projecting don't you?
When you can't refute your opponent, you just lie and claim they are ignoring reality and facts.
What part of reality am I ignoring?
What facts am I ignoring?

Are you referring to the fact that no one knows what happens after death, which means your claim that all the religions are wrong is entirely baseless?
The fact which supports my position and demonstrates a significant flaw with your view?
A fact you repeatedly ignore the logical consequences of?

Or do you mean the fact you keep ignoring that there is a distinction between knowing an answer you claim is correct, vs just claiming that answer without knowing?
Or do you mean the fact you keep ignoring that this is not a dichotomy. I don't need to claim a religion is correct to claim your position that all religions are wrong is baseless. Instead I can pick a third option of "we don't know". We don't know if the religions are right or wrong. That means claiming they are wrong is just as baseless as claiming they are right.

So I have a track record of accepting reality and facts and using them to support my position.
Conversely you have a track record of rejecting or misrepresenting facts and parts of reality which demonstrate you are wrong or show flaws in your position, misrepresenting or otherwise making false claims about facts or parts of reality to pretend they support you when they don't, ignoring the reality of what people have said and instead constructing strawmen to knock down, effectively lying about what they are saying, demanding they prove or provide things only your strawmen have claimed rather than what they have claimed, and continually projecting these inadequacies onto others.

we never knew
Do you understand the difference between guessing and being correct, vs knowing that you are correct.

Again, for the dice analogy, any of those 5 people could be correct, even though they have no way of knowing. But not knowing doesn't mean they are wrong.
You claiming they are wrong is just as baseless as them claiming any particular number.
Just like they have no way of knowing they are correct, you have no way of knowing they are wrong.
And by you claiming that they are all wrong, you are effectively claiming the dice landed on 6, something you have no way of knowing, and placing your claim as equivalent to their claims.
So what makes your claim, effectively that the dice landed on 6, any better than their equivalent claims that it landed on a different number?

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Timeisup

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Re: Why are flat earthers so dishonest?
« Reply #297 on: October 29, 2022, 02:55:01 PM »
It's amazing how so easily you can constantly convince yourself you are correct even when reality and the facts say otherwise.
Why not present that statement in a more honest way?
It is entirely unsurprising that I can easily convince myself that I am correct, when I am capable of presenting simple logical arguments backed by facts (including facts which you accept) which support my position and show faults in your position, which you repeatedly refuse to engage with, which you are entirely incapable of refuting; and when instead of even attempting to support your position you instead typically resort to strawmanning me and trying to make demands that I prove or provide something I never claimed; all while being completely incapable of providing anything that shows I am wrong.

When faced with all that, why wouldn't I be convinced I am correct?
The potentially amazing thing is how in the light of all that you still think you are correct.

If you were correct you would have demonstrated the fault with my argument.
Instead you just pathetically dismiss it as illogic and refuse to engage with it, as if you know it demonstrates the fault in your claim and you know you can't refute it.

Here it is again, if you think I am wrong, you should be able to clearly demonstrate what is wrong with my argument:
A standard 6 sided dice is rolled with the result hidden.
5 people each say it is a different integer from 1 to 5, even though they have no way to know.
The religious people are like the first 5 people, each claiming something about the dice, that they don't know.
You come in and claim that because they don't know, they must be wrong, and thus the dice could not be on any digit from 1 to 5.
That is effectively you claiming it must be 6, even though you don't know, and thus by your own "reasoning" you must be wrong.

You appear to believe, despite having zero proof, that one of those many religions could have been right about life after death despite the indisputable fact that here and now in 2022 we have little clue about about the answer to that question.
What do you mean despite the fact?
That very fact is the proof that supports my position.

The fact that we have no idea what happens after death means we cannot honestly claim that all the religions must be wrong about what happens after death.
Just like in the dice analogy, the fact that we don't know what the dice landed on means we cannot honestly claim that those people who are just guessing must be wrong about what the dice landed in.

In order to know the religions are wrong, or that the people guessing are wrong, we need to know at least enough to show that they are wrong. And we don't for either case.

You appear to believe, despite having zero proof to support your position, and providing facts which refute your position, that all these religions are wrong, not simply that they don't know, but that they have no chance of being correct, even though you have absolutely nothing to support that belief of yours.

Are you claiming that the answer has been lost?
No. Considering I am not claiming that one of these is correct, and there are still plenty of religions out there and you can easily find what they claim happens after death, why would I claim the answer has been lost?

Then again you have a track record of ignoring reality and the facts when it suits you.
You sure do love projecting don't you?
When you can't refute your opponent, you just lie and claim they are ignoring reality and facts.
What part of reality am I ignoring?
What facts am I ignoring?

Are you referring to the fact that no one knows what happens after death, which means your claim that all the religions are wrong is entirely baseless?
The fact which supports my position and demonstrates a significant flaw with your view?
A fact you repeatedly ignore the logical consequences of?

Or do you mean the fact you keep ignoring that there is a distinction between knowing an answer you claim is correct, vs just claiming that answer without knowing?
Or do you mean the fact you keep ignoring that this is not a dichotomy. I don't need to claim a religion is correct to claim your position that all religions are wrong is baseless. Instead I can pick a third option of "we don't know". We don't know if the religions are right or wrong. That means claiming they are wrong is just as baseless as claiming they are right.

So I have a track record of accepting reality and facts and using them to support my position.
Conversely you have a track record of rejecting or misrepresenting facts and parts of reality which demonstrate you are wrong or show flaws in your position, misrepresenting or otherwise making false claims about facts or parts of reality to pretend they support you when they don't, ignoring the reality of what people have said and instead constructing strawmen to knock down, effectively lying about what they are saying, demanding they prove or provide things only your strawmen have claimed rather than what they have claimed, and continually projecting these inadequacies onto others.

we never knew
Do you understand the difference between guessing and being correct, vs knowing that you are correct.

Again, for the dice analogy, any of those 5 people could be correct, even though they have no way of knowing. But not knowing doesn't mean they are wrong.
You claiming they are wrong is just as baseless as them claiming any particular number.
Just like they have no way of knowing they are correct, you have no way of knowing they are wrong.
And by you claiming that they are all wrong, you are effectively claiming the dice landed on 6, something you have no way of knowing, and placing your claim as equivalent to their claims.
So what makes your claim, effectively that the dice landed on 6, any better than their equivalent claims that it landed on a different number?

You have an analogy featuring dice, well good for you, and I have facts.

I know what I would rather base my opinion on.

It’s hardly a guess! It’s a fact.

Fact one with no dice required:-
Medical science currently does not know what conciseness is and what happens to it after death.

Fact two once more with no dice required.
There is no historical record that shows any religion or other organisation knew the factual truth about post death.

Given those two facts it’s safe to assume again with no dice required that factual knowledge about  what happens to human conciseness after death has always been unknown.

While many religions have produced many varied stories about death and it’s aftermath it’s safe to assume, dice aside, that they were no more than just stories. Unless you are claiming that the third panel of The Garden of Earthy Delights or the Last Judgement are actual representation of post death? and can be taken as ‘gospel’.

Not a pleasant thought!



"I can accept that some aspects of FE belief are true, while others are fiction."

Jack Black

Now that is a laugh!

*

JackBlack

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Re: Why are flat earthers so dishonest?
« Reply #298 on: October 29, 2022, 03:49:38 PM »
You have an analogy featuring dice, well good for you, and I have facts.
I have a logical argument backed up by facts, the very same facts that you present, which can be represented by a simple analogy with dice which you refuse to engage with because it so clearly demonstrates your claim is unfounded.

You have no facts to back up your claims.
The fact you continue to presents demonstrates you claim is unfounded, that there is no way for you to know that all religions are wrong.

So I know what I would rather base my opinion on.
A logical argument supported by facts you are incapable of refuting, rather than your baseless claim you are yet to substantiate in any way.

Fact one with no dice required:-
Medical science currently does not know what conciseness is and what happens to it after death.
Which means you cannot know if the religions are right or wrong when it comes to life after death.

You ignore this fact and boldly proclaim that all religions are wrong.
You are ignoring facts to promote a baseless belief.

knew
Irrelevant.
This is just you attempting to move the goalposts.
Again, do you understand the difference between being correct and knowing you are correct?

This is a very simple concept, which even young children can understand, yet you appear to be struggling.

Given those two facts it’s safe to assume again with no dice required that factual knowledge about  what happens to human conciseness after death has always been unknown.
Which would include the knowledge that all religions are wrong.
That means you cannot know that all religions are wrong.
That means your claim that all religions are wrong is just as baseless as the claims of religions.
You do not know. There is no way for you to know.

While many religions have produced many varied stories about death and it’s aftermath it’s safe to assume, dice aside, that they were no more than just stories.
Which would still be an assumption, not knowledge, and still doesn't mean they are wrong.

Again, if you were correct, you would actually deal with the dice analogy, either clearly explaining why it shouldn't apply, or refuting it and explaining how you know all 5 people are wrong.

Alternatively, you would actually defend your claim and demonstrate how you know all religions are wrong, rather than repeatedly trying to show they haven't proven their case.
Currently you are no better than the religious people claiming a god exists because you can't prove it doesn't.
This is because you assert they are wrong, but they only way you can even attempt to justify it is by showing they can't prove they are right.

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disputeone

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Re: Why are flat earthers so dishonest?
« Reply #299 on: October 29, 2022, 06:16:01 PM »
There is such a distinction between people that understand why they believe what they believe, and people who believe things they have been told. Rarely have I seen it illustrated as aptly as in this thread.
Why would that be inciting terrorism?  Lorddave was merely describing a type of shop we have here in the US, a bomb-gun shop.  A shop that sells bomb-guns.