What experiments can I do to prove that the Earth is flat?

So the independent movements from the various parts of the plane show that it is the plane itself moving, not a heat haze?

The plane itself IS moving, but you claim Saturn itself is NOT moving at all, so you're comparison is wrong, right there, Also wrong, is that heat haze is a momentary effect, not an eternal one, and it effects ANY objects, and the whole scene as well, not the object alone, so that's another contradiction.

Every effect of our atmosphere occurs near the surface, like heat haze, as shown in your examples. There's no heat haze at 30,000 feet altitude, or between Earth and Saturn, or stars, or the moon, either. Because they are high above the surface, where there's little air, or atmosphere, to effect these objects from our view. Not anything close to how it limits our view of objects ON the surface, or close above it. 

That's why they put observatories at higher elevations, to limit atmospheric effects which occur near the surface at lower elevations, and at sea level. It would be pointless if those effects were about the same as at lower elevations, but it's much better to view objects from there, as I said.

Not if the stars were trillions of miles away, though. It would be useless to do that. But the stars are very CLOSE to Earth, and that's why it's far better to view them at such elevations. There's far less air, or atmosphere, to limit our view.  If conditions allow it, of course.

What is the main problem at this point, from a clear, close up view of Saturn, and the stars?

They are very small in size.... much smaller than the moon and Sun, even though they're about the same distance away.

We could never see details of stars if they were trillions of miles away, only if they're small and CLOSE to Earth's surface below them. It's not caused by the atmosphere, nearly none exists there anyway. No 'heat hazes' occur anywhere near there, that's for sure!

You're arguing that objects high above Earth, are all caused by effects of our atmosphere, then you show me a heat haze on the surface, because it doesn't occur at higher altitudes, where we  look upward at Saturn. You're completely contradicting your own argument here.

The plane itself IS moving, but you claim Saturn itself is NOT moving at all, so you're comparison is wrong

No, I accept that Saturn is rotating with a period of roughly 10.5 hours, while orbiting the sun.
So no, Saturn is moving, just not moving like you claim.

Also wrong, is that heat haze is a momentary effect

No, that would be you that is wrong. You have admitted that the atmosphere is always in motion.
That means it isn't a question of if the effect is there or not, it is how significant it is.

Every effect of our atmosphere occurs near the surface, like heat haze, as shown in your examples.

Just what makes you think that?
Do you think it magically all stops working just a little bit above the surface?
We can see clouds moving around at high altitudes. We know that planes can go through turbulence while flying, where it is significant enough to shake the plane.
But you want to claim it just magically doesn't exist.

You are yet again making baseless claims to try to avoid the burden of proof.
But all you are doing is trying to give yourself a different burden.

Because they are high above the surface, where there's little air, or atmosphere, to effect these objects from our view.

And more baseless claims.
The air directly above you, reaching to space is equivalent to over 8 km of air at the surface.

At 30 000 ft, the air is still 30% of the pressure it is on the ground.

That's why they put observatories at higher elevations, to limit atmospheric effects which occur near the surface at lower elevations

And where are your observations from?
Low altitude.
You are demonstrating that you know you are spouting pure BS.

If your BS was true, there would be no need to put observatories at higher elevations.

Not if the stars were trillions of miles away, though.

Why?
That makes no sense at all. Yet again, you just assert delusional BS to try and prop up your fantasy.

At sea level, there is roughly 10 000 kg of air per m^2, if you go straight up.
The higher you go, the less air there is to see through.
By the time you reach 100 km, there is practically no air.
So it doesn't matter if an object is 100 km above Earth, or a trillion km away. The same air is there which you have to deal with.

What is the main problem at this point, from a clear, close up view of Saturn, and the stars?

You are yet to provide a close up view. A high magnification view is not close up. They are fundamentally different.

They are very small in size

They have a small angular size, and that is the issue that was brought up before.
For an object with a small angular size, they are very sensitive to disturbances in the atmosphere to distort the view.
For an object with a large angular size, they

much smaller than the moon and Sun, even though they're about the same distance away.

By physical size, Saturn is between the moon and sun. By angular size, Saturn is much smaller, as it is much further away.
There is no reason at all to think they are all the same distance away.
The fact we can get annular and total solar eclipses shows the sun is further away than the moon and larger than it.
The fact that the sun appears to be at roughly 90 degrees to a 1st quarter moon shows it is much much further away, and consequently much much larger.

We could never see details of stars if they were trillions of miles away

And you are yet to show any details. So your claim is pointless.

It's not caused by the atmosphere

Prove it.

nearly none exists there anyway

So you took these pictures/videos in space?
Because it is the atmosphere BETWEEN you and the object, not just the atmosphere near the object.

You're completely contradicting your own argument here.

No, I'm not.
I am providing an example of the atmosphere distorting the view to the object.
Something you falsely claim is impossible.
The burden is on you to demonstrate it is not the case for Saturn.

By the very nature of your claims, you are setting yourself up to try and dismiss any evidence that shows you are wrong.
The only thing you would accept are similarly distorted views of other celestial objects (like the shot of the moon already provided), but you will just claim that shows features of the object moving.
And you want to dismiss anything that isn't that as "not comparable", even if it clearly demonstrates the effect of a turbulent atmosphere.
You are just setting up a dishonest impossible standard to try to dismiss anything that shows you are wrong, while refusing to meet your burden of proof.

Again, if you want to claim it isn't the atmosphere then prove it.
Don't just repeatedly assert the same delusional BS.
Show the atmosphere cannot be causing these distorted views.

The plane itself IS moving,

Might try this thread

Backed Yard Telescope Moon, Jupiter, and Saturn
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=90945.0


I really had no sense Saturn was moving in the context you mean.

I could get Saturn to wobble from interacting with the telescope by focusing or the camera autofocus being confused.

Wonder if Saturday is surrounded by dust….  Picture is overexposed.  See video below where I adjusted exposure.  Might add to why it shimmers?



Petty clear image with a cellphone and being overexposed if you really think Saturn is wobbly….

Saturn over exposed


Saturn played with exposure

We could never see details of stars if they were trillions of miles away, only if they're small and CLOSE to Earth's surface below them.
It's not caused by the atmosphere, nearly none exists there anyway. No 'heat hazes' occur anywhere near there, that's for sure!

What you consistently fail to realize is that we visually have to pass through an atmosphere, the one around earth. How you fail to understand this is mind-boggling.

If you want to explain how the atmosphere has no effect, why don't you do some actual research and pull up some papers or articles from the science community showing what you claim. YT is not a source for such things. I hardly think everyone in the science community is wrong and you are the only person who is right. If so, you would have a Nobel prize by now. If you have no such evidence, well, you are wrong.

Quote from: JackBlack on October 22, 2022, 02:34:10 PM

So the independent movements from the various parts of the plane show that it is the plane itself moving, not a heat haze?

The plane itself IS moving, but you claim Saturn itself is NOT moving at all, so you're comparison is wrong, right there, Also wrong, is that heat haze is a momentary effect, not an eternal one, and it effects ANY objects, and the whole scene as well,

Like how atmospheric turbulence effects the moon, Jupiter, and Saturn in these video clips?  Noticeably effected by “heat waves”.

not the object alone, so that's another contradiction.

The field of view is so narrow, and to properly expose Saturn, what other objects should be in the shot?

However, I have this overexposed video of Saturn. It’s looks like it’s moon is being effected in lockstep with its planet Saturn.



I hope they play as little video clips as intended.  I’ve reach my daily limit of YouTube video uploads.

Because they are high above the surface, where there's little air, or atmosphere, to effect these objects from our view. Not anything close to how it limits our view of objects ON the surface, or close above it. 

Like how the Hubble telescope produces clear wobble free images of Saturn?

Watch Saturn Spin in this Awesome Hubble Time-Lapse



Mountain top telescopes are just two or three miles higher in the 60 mile thick atmosphere. An atmosphere still loaded with layers of dust, ice crystals, moisture, and thermal layers. 

These remote locations minimize the twinkling, because the atmosphere is thinner in these spots. If a location is chosen carefully, we can also eliminate the glare from outdoor lights, which reflect off the atmosphere and give the sky an artificial brightness. Air quality is important for good observations, because any particles in the air will reflect light and also make the sky glow. Finally, weather has a substantial impact on the quality of observations. Ideally, observatories should be located as high above the clouds as possible.

https://kids.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/frym.2019.00090

Mountain top observatories reduce effects of the atmosphere, It doesn’t eliminate them.  Hence “These remote locations minimize the twinkling”


Do you have a link to where a mountain top telescope captured a wobbly Saturn, and to the same degree as my videos of Saturn?  Or is there a noticeable difference in the image quality? 
 

I could get Saturn to wobble from interacting with the telescope by focusing or the camera autofocus being confused.

Wonder if Saturday is surrounded by dust….  Picture is overexposed.  See video below where I adjusted exposure.  Might add to why it shimmers?



Petty clear image with a cellphone and being overexposed if you really think Saturn is wobbly….

Saturn over exposed


Saturn played with exposure

No, it is YOU wobbling the camera which makes Saturn appear to wobble up and down within the FRAME, but we can still see Saturn itself is in motion, despite your efforts to show otherwise.

When the object in the frame, is in the same position, over a short period of time, the camera/telescope is stable, and is not moving or wobbling around at the time. And when the frame isn't moving at all, and it shows that Saturn IS moving constantly, then it IS Saturn itself that is in motion, and is in CONSTANT motion, with part of it moving about the other part which isn't moving the same way.

The most interesting part of this movement, which will be more and more clear to see, eventually, with better instruments, is going to prove without any doubt, that it IS Saturn itself, which is moving constantly, endlessly. 

We already can see that the ring changes it's angle and position around the orb, and constantly 'wobbles' around the orb. That alone shows it is Saturn itself in motion, since no effect could cause two parts of one object to move differently at the same time.

Anyone who disputes that, should try to create such an effect with their cameras or telescopes. I'd love to see it. Not that I ever WILL see it, of course.


Saturn is rotating, at high speed, and I see it, and it will eventually be clear to all, and I hope to see that day.

 

M

No, it is YOU wobbling the camera which makes Saturn appear to wobble

Pretty much what I posted

we can still see Saturn itself is in motion,

Nope.   It’s the atmosphere that makes Saturn look all wavy.

It’s not even “wobbling” in my videos.  Is just wavy looking. 

Same effect as seen in the Jupiter and moon videos.

Again…..
However, I have this overexposed video of Saturn. It’s looks like it’s moon is being effected in lockstep with its planet Saturn.



I hope they play as little video clips as intended.  I’ve reach my daily limit of YouTube video uploads.

Saturn is rotating, at high speed, and I see it, and it will eventually be clear to all, and I hope to see that day.

Not in my small time clip videos of Saturn with no discernible surface features.   With Mount top observatories video showing something completely different than you delusion. 

but we can still see Saturn itself is in motion

No, we see the same distortions due to the atmosphere.
If you want to claim it is Saturn's motion you will need more than just your baseless assertions.

when the frame isn't moving at all, and it shows that Saturn IS moving constantly, then it IS Saturn itself that is in motion

Or, it shows distortion due to the air.
You are yet to provide any reason to dismiss this vastly more likely option.

The most interesting part of this movement, which will be more and more clear to see, eventually, with better instruments

Or, by getting the atmosphere out of the way, i.e. viewing it from space, where it doesn't show that "motion".

is going to prove without any doubt, that it IS Saturn itself

Not unless you provide a way to rule out the atmosphere, such as by recording it from multiple positions at the same time showing the same motion, or by recording it from space.

We already can see that the ring changes it's angle and position around the orb, and constantly 'wobbles' around the orb. That alone shows it is Saturn itself in motion, since no effect could cause two parts of one object to move differently at the same time.

Again, refer to the plane.
If your BS was true, then a heat haze should result in a perfectly clear image of the plane with the plane just moving around.
Instead, what we observe is different parts of the plane "appearing to move" differently to other parts.

Yet again your claim is refuted by simple common occurrences which I'm pretty sure everyone has seen.
This shows either a fundamental lack of understanding of what you are talking about, or blatant dishonesty.

Heat haze does not make objects appear to move, it makes the entire area hazy, and blurs out any objects there, but never causes them to appear to be moving, it's the same as when a light on a pole appears to spread out in slivers, through a haze or fog, the light doesn't appear to move, we see a blurring of light from the effect. Not motion from the actual light itself.

The effects of atmosphere cause objects to NOT be seen clearly, that's why your PLANE cannot be seen clearly, due to heat haze.

Saturn isn't like your airplane, it is not blurred out, not smudged, in any way, when seen in excellent conditions, which only show the motion MORE CLEARLY THAN BEFORE! 

The better the conditions are. the clearer we see the movement of Saturn. And it will be more and more clear to see it's movement, in the future, with greater magnfication than we have today. We will see Saturn is rotating at high speed, and you will have no excuse for it, just something even more absurd than now, I'm sure. Maybe you'll claim the rotation is ALSO caused by an effect of atmosphere to 'explain' it! Why not? Everything can be called an 'effect', of course!

Heat haze does not make objects appear to move,

Just like the atmosphere makes Saturn, Jupiter, and the moon look wavy in my videos

Now.  Stop changing the subject.

Again…..
However, I have this overexposed video of Saturn. It’s looks like it’s moon is being effected in lockstep with its planet Saturn.



I hope they play as little video clips as intended. 

The video clip, if it plays for you, clearly shows the atmosphere causing the same effects on Saturn’s moon as on Saturn.

Heat haze does not make objects appear to move, it makes the entire area hazy, and blurs out any objects there, but never causes them to appear to be moving

i.e. what is observed with these images of Saturn.

The effects of atmosphere cause objects to NOT be seen clearly, that's why your PLANE cannot be seen clearly, due to heat haze.

And why Saturn can't be seen clearly.

Saturn isn't like your airplane

Yes it is.
It is blurry, and due to distortions of the atmosphere, some parts of the image are moving relative to other parts.

The better the conditions are. the clearer we see the movement of Saturn.

Quite the opposite.
The better the conditions are, the more clearly we see Saturn and the less distorted it appears, with parts of the image moving less relative to other parts.
i.e. with less of what you falsely claim is the motion of Saturn.

with greater magnfication

Again, at this point magnification is not important.
It is magnified to the poitn where you can see it.
What you need is better resolution and better seeing conditions.
i.e. a larger aperture, and a calmer atmosphere.

We will see Saturn is rotating at high speed

You are clinging to your fantasy, asserting the results while you can't demonstrate any of them.
Why not take the more rational route?
We will have quite clear images/videos of Saturn, and you will dismiss them as fake to continue believing your delusional nonsense.

Again, you are yet to provide a single reason (which can withstand scrutiny) as to why we shouldn't conclude it is the atmosphere.
You are yet to provide 2 simultaneous views of Saturn from different locations showing the same motion, nor have you provided evidence the atmosphere could ever be still enough for a device like that used in the videos to produce a non-distorted view of Saturn.

Yes it is.
It is blurry, and due to distortions of the atmosphere, some parts of the image are moving relative to other parts.

A simple truth that will be glossed over, or completely ignored.

Heat haze does not make objects appear to move, it makes the entire area hazy,

Well.  Except if it’s a properly exposed bright planet, and the only thing in the frame…..

Heat haze does not make objects appear to move, it makes the entire area hazy, and blurs out any objects there, but never causes them to appear to be moving, it's the same as when a light on a pole appears to spread out in slivers, through a haze or fog, the light doesn't appear to move, we see a blurring of light from the effect. Not motion from the actual light itself.

Not necessarily. You're looking at an object against a black background. How could you tell that the entire scene isn't hazy?

The effects of atmosphere cause objects to NOT be seen clearly, that's why your PLANE cannot be seen clearly, due to heat haze.

Saturn isn't like your airplane, it is not blurred out, not smudged, in any way, when seen in excellent conditions, which only show the motion MORE CLEARLY THAN BEFORE! 

Looks a little blurry due to the atmosphere you're looking through.

The better the conditions are. the clearer we see the movement of Saturn.

The better the atmospheric conditions, the less blurry the object is. Pretty simple really. You've been wrong about everything else regarding planes and such, what makes you think you know anything about astrophotography? Apparently you don't and lots and lots of people do and none agree with your silliness.

18 pages later and not one credible experiment posted that shows the earth is flat!

I wonder why that is?

For all their combined huff, puff, and free thinking not one of them have been able to free think an experiment to prove their belief.

Not necessarily. You're looking at an object against a black background. How could you tell that the entire scene isn't hazy?


Looks a little blurry due to the atmosphere you're looking through.


The better the atmospheric conditions, the less blurry the object is.


...what makes you think you know anything about astrophotography? Apparently you don't and lots and lots of people do and none agree with your silliness.

I know that 'astrophotography' is complete BS, a pseudo-science branch of 'astronomy', the first fake 'science', of 'endless space'. 

It's showing 'images', of things in 'space', not just SAYING they SAW things in 'space', with special, exclusive instruments, nobody else has, or can use, or anything at all! 


Yes, this is so much better than just SAYING what they saw, they're showing us their PICTURES of it, now!!   

Quote from: Stash on October 30, 2022, 08:41:57 AM

Not necessarily. You're looking at an object against a black background. How could you tell that the entire scene isn't hazy?


Looks a little blurry due to the atmosphere you're looking through.


The better the atmospheric conditions, the less blurry the object is.


...what makes you think you know anything about astrophotography? Apparently you don't and lots and lots of people do and none agree with your silliness.

I know that 'astrophotography' is complete BS...

How do you know? You keep talking about YT videos of Saturn which is...ding, ding, ding...astrophotography.

So why is it that the astrophotography that you think fits your narrative isn't BS and the astrophotography that doesn't fit your narrative is BS? Explain the hypocrisy.

The hypocrisy is to present 'images' of things, which nobody else can VERIFY as real or not, because they don't ALLOW for others to validate anything they show us!

Those who make claims about seeing something, taking 'images' of something, must allow their claims to be validated, confirmed, by others, as independent sources. 

Astronomers never allow others to validate their claims, and never WILL allow it. That's slimy, and not any real SCIENCE at all would do that. Only a fake 'science' does it, like 'astronomy' is a fake 'science'.

I know that 'astrophotography' is complete BS

It showing your claims are BS doesn't make it BS.

because they don't ALLOW for others to validate anything they show us!

They do allow you to validate it.
What they don't do is pay for you to validate it. Why should they?
If you want to validate it, you are free to spend all the money yourself.
No one is stopping you.

The hypocrisy is to present 'images' of things, which nobody else can VERIFY as real or not, because they don't ALLOW for others to validate anything they show us!

Those who make claims about seeing something, taking 'images' of something, must allow their claims to be validated, confirmed, by others, as independent sources. 

Astronomers never allow others to validate their claims, and never WILL allow it. That's slimy, and not any real SCIENCE at all would do that. Only a fake 'science' does it, like 'astronomy' is a fake 'science'.

Are you saying I faked this somehow?  With no proof that I faked it?



Here’s an idea.  Go buy a telescope and try it out for yourself.   Then post the results.

Funny how flat earther’s call someone like me a shill and an automaton.

But I actually go out and try things, experiment, and observe.

While you are content to sit on your ass believing whatever the right people that conform to your biases on YouTube tell you with no effort on your part to interact with the actual real world.  No effort to verify things for yourself.

Quote from: turbonium2 on November 05, 2022, 12:10:02 AM

The hypocrisy is to present 'images' of things, which nobody else can VERIFY as real or not, because they don't ALLOW for others to validate anything they show us!

Those who make claims about seeing something, taking 'images' of something, must allow their claims to be validated, confirmed, by others, as independent sources. 

Astronomers never allow others to validate their claims, and never WILL allow it. That's slimy, and not any real SCIENCE at all would do that. Only a fake 'science' does it, like 'astronomy' is a fake 'science'.

Are you saying I faked this somehow?  With no proof that I faked it?



Here’s an idea.  Go buy a telescope and try it out for yourself.   Then post the results.

Funny how flat earther’s call someone like me a shill and an automaton.

But I actually go out and try things, experiment, and observe.

While you are content to sit on your ass believing whatever the right people that conform to your biases on YouTube tell you with no effort on your part to interact with the actual real world.  No effort to verify things for yourself.

No, I was referring to what NASA shows us is all faked, not allowing others to validate anything from them, and so on.

Your videos seem to be legit, and they also support my argument.

 

No, I was referring to what NASA shows us is all faked

Yet the sole reason you have for claiming it is fake is that it doesn't match your delusional garbage.

not allowing others to validate anything from them, and so on.

You mean pathetic lies by you and so on?
No one is stopping you from validating what they produce.
You are free to go and spend your money validating it.
They are under no obligation to waste their time and money on trying to convince someone like you that what they are providing is legitimate as you have no interest in ever accepting it.
If you want to validate it, you can do so yourself, with your own money.

Validation from all the independent sources which took videos of Saturn, and show the very same thing in all of them, showing Saturn in constant, endless motion.

It clearly shows that they lied about Saturn to us, when they claimed to see features of Saturn, slowly rotating once every 10.6 hours, because it's complete BS.

Saturn is in endless, constant motion, proven with every video showing it in constant, endless motion.

It should be considered as it is - one of God's amazing creations for us to gaze upon. It's stunningly beautiful.

 and they also support my argument.

How?

Again..

Quote from: turbonium2 on October 29, 2022, 12:06:34 AM

Quote from: JackBlack on October 22, 2022, 02:34:10 PM

So the independent movements from the various parts of the plane show that it is the plane itself moving, not a heat haze?

The plane itself IS moving, but you claim Saturn itself is NOT moving at all, so you're comparison is wrong, right there, Also wrong, is that heat haze is a momentary effect, not an eternal one, and it effects ANY objects, and the whole scene as well,

Like how atmospheric turbulence effects the moon, Jupiter, and Saturn in these video clips?  Noticeably effected by “heat waves”.

Quote

not the object alone, so that's another contradiction.

The field of view is so narrow, and to properly expose Saturn, what other objects should be in the shot?

However, I have this overexposed video of Saturn. It’s looks like it’s moon is being effected in lockstep with its planet Saturn.



I hope they play as little video clips as intended.  I’ve reach my daily limit of YouTube video uploads.

You claim it’s not the atmosphere.  I posted a video of Saturn and it’s moon being effected in the same manner lockstep by the atmosphere. 



It destroyed your argument.

Validation from all the independent sources which took videos of Saturn, and show the very same thing in all of them, showing Saturn in constant, endless motion.

It clearly shows that they lied about Saturn to us, when they claimed to see features of Saturn, slowly rotating once every 10.6 hours, because it's complete BS.

Saturn is in endless, constant motion, proven with every video showing it in constant, endless motion.

It should be considered as it is - one of God's amazing creations for us to gaze upon. It's stunningly beautiful.

Did you get this nonsense about Saturns movements from the same book where you got your bizarre ideas about tectonic plate movement.
You sure do like making stuff up.

Astronomers never allow others to validate their claims, and never WILL allow it. That's slimy, and not any real SCIENCE at all would do that. Only a fake 'science' does it, like 'astronomy' is a fake 'science'.

Says who? Have you ever been to an observatory run by astronomers? If not, maybe you should. You can look right through their equipment just like they can.

Saturn is in endless, constant motion, proven with every video showing it in constant, endless motion.

No, it's not...

Validation from all the independent sources which took videos of Saturn, and show the very same thing in all of them

But it isn't the "very same", it is comparable. They are all showing a distortion of the view by the turbulent atmosphere.

You are yet to provide anything to challenge that.
So you are yet to even come close to demonstrate that anyone other than you has repeatedly lied about Saturn.

Again, if you wish to assert it is the motion of Saturn, rather than the atmosphere, you need to prove it.