What do you think about gun control laws?

Quote from: FlatAssembler on February 17, 2022, 06:20:30 AM

Quote from: Themightykabool on February 17, 2022, 01:36:55 AM

Quote from: FlatAssembler on February 16, 2022, 10:12:58 PM

I am still waiting for your source that suggests less than 48'000 lives per year are saved by guns. You do realize 18.1% of 500'000 is still almost twice as large as 48'000 is?

I didnt suggest anything other than 500,000-3,000,0000 is a made up number.

But i can have a go.

One number from this brady study says 115,000people are shot each year in usa.
Cdc gives an estimate 24,000 gun suicide.
So 115 - 24 = 91,000.

Statista says 105,000 armed store robberies in 2020.
I compare armed store robberies because many convenince stores and shops owners carry for self defense.

So at best ill give you 105,000-196,000 gun incidents where the bottom range is the robbery and the top is assuming zero overlap between cop shootings and the mentioned robberies.

I reject your numbers by reason their extrapolation is baseless self reported survey with an extreme statistical range giving itself no credibilty.



https://www.bradyunited.org/key-statistics

https://www.statista.com/statistics/251914/number-of-robberies-in-the-us-by-weapon/

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/suicide.htm

What is your point? That the estimates that guns cause around 50'000 deaths per year in the US are significant underestimates? Well, I haven't looked too much into the topic.

what's the point?
the point is very obvious as it stated it.

you presented a number and asked me about some other random number.
i refute.
that's the point.

maybe you should look into the topic some more since your point was that a mentally disturbed person wasn't able to access guns for a percieved need for self defense.
 - how many times have you been mugged?

The fact remains that estimates of how many lives are saved by guns tend to be far bigger (by around an order of magnitude) than the estimates about how many people are killed by guns. You calling them baseless does not make them so, especially when they come up with similar results with various methods.

As you seem to have missed this then.

Mmm, The US has 120guns per 100 people, the UK has 4.6.
Death by guns in the US = 12.21 per 100K, the UK = 0.2
Murder rate per 100K US = 5.3                   the UK = 1.2

Where in those numbers is there any proof that guns save lives?

I hope you are not applying that kind of logic to everything. The fact is, the correlation between violent crime and gun ownership is not high. The UK is relatively high in violent crime, yet it has relatively few guns, compared to other European countries.

Quote from: FlatAssembler on February 16, 2022, 10:08:11 PM

I simply think laws that prevent the prevention of a crime are bad laws and that people who want such laws are partly responsible for the crimes they cause, if I was not clear enough.

Not clear at all. What laws are there that prevent the prevention of crime?

Laws that discourage self-defense by preventing people from getting guns, obviously.

I would question your logic first. Considering, though you've changed your mind, you at one point thought guns didn't exist. To even have that notion to begin with is rather telling as to your logistical assessment capabilities.

I would question your logic first. Considering, though you've changed your mind, you at one point thought guns didn't exist. To even have that notion to begin with is rather telling as to your logistical assessment capabilities.

Sorry, what do you mean by "logistical"? Can you elaborate on that?

Quote from: Stash on February 17, 2022, 12:42:36 AM

Quote from: FlatAssembler on February 16, 2022, 10:08:11 PM

I simply think laws that prevent the prevention of a crime are bad laws and that people who want such laws are partly responsible for the crimes they cause, if I was not clear enough.

Not clear at all. What laws are there that prevent the prevention of crime?

Laws that discourage self-defense by preventing people from getting guns, obviously.

Like what laws ar you referring to? Define, "discouraging self-defense".

If there is a law that says I can't legally possess a firearm because I am a convicted felon because of an act I committed using a firearm should I still be legally allowed to posses a firearm? Because I want it it for self defense?

Quote from: Stash on February 17, 2022, 06:49:29 PM

I would question your logic first. Considering, though you've changed your mind, you at one point thought guns didn't exist. To even have that notion to begin with is rather telling as to your logistical assessment capabilities.

Sorry, what do you mean by "logistical"? Can you elaborate on that?

Logic. Yours. What sort of logical manipulations could someone possibly make in their mind that would lead them to believe guns don't exist? Do you realize how warped that would be? And just how far out of reality that would be? How far out of logic?

Quote from: FlatAssembler on February 17, 2022, 06:48:13 PM

Quote from: Stash on February 17, 2022, 12:42:36 AM

Quote from: FlatAssembler on February 16, 2022, 10:08:11 PM

I simply think laws that prevent the prevention of a crime are bad laws and that people who want such laws are partly responsible for the crimes they cause, if I was not clear enough.

Not clear at all. What laws are there that prevent the prevention of crime?

Laws that discourage self-defense by preventing people from getting guns, obviously.

Like what laws ar you referring to? Define, "discouraging self-defense".

If there is a law that says I can't legally possess a firearm because I am a convicted felon because of an act I committed using a firearm should I still be legally allowed to posses a firearm? Because I want it it for self defense?

Yes, as most felons are not actually violent. Most felons are minor criminals such as drug users.

Quote from: FlatAssembler on February 17, 2022, 06:52:23 PM

Quote from: Stash on February 17, 2022, 06:49:29 PM

I would question your logic first. Considering, though you've changed your mind, you at one point thought guns didn't exist. To even have that notion to begin with is rather telling as to your logistical assessment capabilities.

Sorry, what do you mean by "logistical"? Can you elaborate on that?

Logic. Yours. What sort of logical manipulations could someone possibly make in their mind that would lead them to believe guns don't exist? Do you realize how warped that would be? And just how far out of reality that would be? How far out of logic?

Well, I explained how I came up with that belief: I thought "Guns exist, but you cannot test that because the police is not letting the civilians own guns." is a typical conspiracy theory.

Australian government also got rather tyrranical in recent years with its "pandemic management" policies.

Not even close to tyranny. Don't get your news feed from whining antivaxxer morons who have no concept 9f civil freedom. I actually live here and I know what a good society entails. That includes civil freedoms at the expense of some personal ones. Thank God for those

I shudder how you think putting a gun in everyone's hand could make society a safer or better place. Why don't we give everyone a grenade too? The military get those - us plebs are missing out!

I shudder how you think putting a gun in everyone's hand could make society a safer or better place.

Chihuahuas also shudder.

Quote from: Themightykabool on February 17, 2022, 07:53:07 AM

Quote from: FlatAssembler on February 17, 2022, 06:20:30 AM

Quote from: Themightykabool on February 17, 2022, 01:36:55 AM

Quote from: FlatAssembler on February 16, 2022, 10:12:58 PM

I am still waiting for your source that suggests less than 48'000 lives per year are saved by guns. You do realize 18.1% of 500'000 is still almost twice as large as 48'000 is?

I didnt suggest anything other than 500,000-3,000,0000 is a made up number.

But i can have a go.

One number from this brady study says 115,000people are shot each year in usa.
Cdc gives an estimate 24,000 gun suicide.
So 115 - 24 = 91,000.

Statista says 105,000 armed store robberies in 2020.
I compare armed store robberies because many convenince stores and shops owners carry for self defense.

So at best ill give you 105,000-196,000 gun incidents where the bottom range is the robbery and the top is assuming zero overlap between cop shootings and the mentioned robberies.

I reject your numbers by reason their extrapolation is baseless self reported survey with an extreme statistical range giving itself no credibilty.



https://www.bradyunited.org/key-statistics

https://www.statista.com/statistics/251914/number-of-robberies-in-the-us-by-weapon/

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/suicide.htm

What is your point? That the estimates that guns cause around 50'000 deaths per year in the US are significant underestimates? Well, I haven't looked too much into the topic.

what's the point?
the point is very obvious as it stated it.

you presented a number and asked me about some other random number.
i refute.
that's the point.

maybe you should look into the topic some more since your point was that a mentally disturbed person wasn't able to access guns for a percieved need for self defense.
 - how many times have you been mugged?

The fact remains that estimates of how many lives are saved by guns tend to be far bigger (by around an order of magnitude) than the estimates about how many people are killed by guns. You calling them baseless does not make them so, especially when they come up with similar results with various methods.

Incorrect.
Killed, shot at, maimed is within the en par to saved vs attacked as per links and comment.

The 500,000-3M also still baseless as per comments.
How is a generous 196,000 of the same magnitude as 3M?

Quote from: Jura-Glenlivet II on February 17, 2022, 12:35:40 AM

As you seem to have missed this then.

Mmm, The US has 120guns per 100 people, the UK has 4.6.
Death by guns in the US = 12.21 per 100K, the UK = 0.2
Murder rate per 100K US = 5.3                   the UK = 1.2

Where in those numbers is there any proof that guns save lives?

I hope you are not applying that kind of logic to everything. The fact is, the correlation between violent crime and gun ownership is not high. The UK is relatively high in violent crime, yet it has relatively few guns, compared to other European countries.

"Fact is" dossnt make it any much a fact...

Violence per capita is violence considering certain socio ecomonical stats.
His stats are gun related between cpuntries.
No one was comparing violence per capita.

Quick google search "violent crime in [country]"

Uk 1.7M
Usa 1.3M (en par)

Uk 67M pop
Usa 340M pop (5x)


So on the sirface ya it looks that way.
Strange.
So more digging

- classification of "violent crime"
Uk classifoes violeny crime difderently than usa.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violent_crime

How many guns are needed to destroy a tank? I haven't studied it that much, but I assume not many.

Eh?  Do you actually know what a tank is?

The fact remains that estimates of how many lives are saved by guns tend to be far bigger (by around an order of magnitude) than the estimates about how many people are killed by guns. You calling them baseless does not make them so, especially when they come up with similar results with various methods.

People are calling your statistics baseless because they are.  All of the numbers you have produced were nearly pure guesswork.

Those numbers are clearly garbage as countries with almost no guns have way lower rates of murder than countries where there are more guns than people.

Here is a good question for you. Who are these supposed lives saved being saved from? Are millions of people protecting themselves from home invaders armed with what... let me guess, guns?

So guns save lives because people can shoot other people with guns trying to kill them with guns. 

Quote from: FlatAssembler on February 17, 2022, 06:31:44 PM

How many guns are needed to destroy a tank? I haven't studied it that much, but I assume not many.

Eh?  Do you actually know what a tank is?

Well, a tank is something like a car, just armoured, right?

Quote from: FlatAssembler on February 17, 2022, 06:39:26 PM

The fact remains that estimates of how many lives are saved by guns tend to be far bigger (by around an order of magnitude) than the estimates about how many people are killed by guns. You calling them baseless does not make them so, especially when they come up with similar results with various methods.

People are calling your statistics baseless because they are.  All of the numbers you have produced were nearly pure guesswork.

Those numbers are clearly garbage as countries with almost no guns have way lower rates of murder than countries where there are more guns than people.

Here is a good question for you. Who are these supposed lives saved being saved from? Are millions of people protecting themselves from home invaders armed with what... let me guess, guns?

So guns save lives because people can shoot other people with guns trying to kill them with guns.

Of course it is a lot of guesswork, we are trying to estimate the number of ducks that didn't quack. Defensive gun use usually leaves no evidence. Unlike guns killing people, which leaves evidence and is easier to estimate.

And you think criminals will stop having guns if guns are outlawed? Criminals are already mostly acquiring their guns illegally, and will continue to do so. It's the law-abiding citizens which would be disarmed by laws preventing people from getting guns, not the criminals.

Quote from: JJA on February 18, 2022, 04:02:28 AM

Quote from: FlatAssembler on February 17, 2022, 06:39:26 PM

The fact remains that estimates of how many lives are saved by guns tend to be far bigger (by around an order of magnitude) than the estimates about how many people are killed by guns. You calling them baseless does not make them so, especially when they come up with similar results with various methods.

People are calling your statistics baseless because they are.  All of the numbers you have produced were nearly pure guesswork.

Those numbers are clearly garbage as countries with almost no guns have way lower rates of murder than countries where there are more guns than people.

Here is a good question for you. Who are these supposed lives saved being saved from? Are millions of people protecting themselves from home invaders armed with what... let me guess, guns?

So guns save lives because people can shoot other people with guns trying to kill them with guns.

Of course it is a lot of guesswork, we are trying to estimate the number of ducks that didn't quack. Defensive gun use usually leaves no evidence. Unlike guns killing people, which leaves evidence and is easier to estimate.

And you think criminals will stop having guns if guns are outlawed? Criminals are already mostly acquiring their guns illegally, and will continue to do so. It's the law-abiding citizens which would be disarmed by laws preventing people from getting guns, not the criminals.

Actually I do think exactly that.  Countries like Japan and others ban handguns entirely and severely restrict shotguns and rifles. Yet somehow they have some of the lowest gun deaths of anywhere.

If guns prevent violence, how come there is so little in countries and states with very few guns?   The data shows pretty clearly, more gun ownership correlates with more gun deaths.  If I wanted to be safest, I wouldn't live where there are more guns, but where there are less.

If guns prevent violence, how come there is so little in countries and states with very few guns?   The data shows pretty clearly, more gun ownership correlates with more gun deaths.  If I wanted to be safest, I wouldn't live where there are more guns, but where there are less.

Come on down under 

Quote from: FlatAssembler on February 17, 2022, 06:43:39 PM

Quote from: Jura-Glenlivet II on February 17, 2022, 12:35:40 AM

As you seem to have missed this then.

Mmm, The US has 120guns per 100 people, the UK has 4.6.
Death by guns in the US = 12.21 per 100K, the UK = 0.2
Murder rate per 100K US = 5.3                   the UK = 1.2

Where in those numbers is there any proof that guns save lives?

I hope you are not applying that kind of logic to everything. The fact is, the correlation between violent crime and gun ownership is not high. The UK is relatively high in violent crime, yet it has relatively few guns, compared to other European countries.

"Fact is" dossnt make it any much a fact...

Violence per capita is violence considering certain socio ecomonical stats.
His stats are gun related between cpuntries.
No one was comparing violence per capita.

Quick google search "violent crime in [country]"

Uk 1.7M
Usa 1.3M (en par)

Uk 67M pop
Usa 340M pop (5x)


So on the sirface ya it looks that way.
Strange.
So more digging

- classification of "violent crime"
Uk classifoes violeny crime difderently than usa.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violent_crime

Look, fine, nobody is denying USA is a horrible country to live in. It is high in violent crime and has a repressive and corrupt government. The question is whether guns are contributing to the bad situation, or whether they are making the situation slightly better.

Quote from: FlatAssembler on February 18, 2022, 04:35:18 AM

Quote from: JJA on February 18, 2022, 04:02:28 AM

Quote from: FlatAssembler on February 17, 2022, 06:39:26 PM

The fact remains that estimates of how many lives are saved by guns tend to be far bigger (by around an order of magnitude) than the estimates about how many people are killed by guns. You calling them baseless does not make them so, especially when they come up with similar results with various methods.

People are calling your statistics baseless because they are.  All of the numbers you have produced were nearly pure guesswork.

Those numbers are clearly garbage as countries with almost no guns have way lower rates of murder than countries where there are more guns than people.

Here is a good question for you. Who are these supposed lives saved being saved from? Are millions of people protecting themselves from home invaders armed with what... let me guess, guns?

So guns save lives because people can shoot other people with guns trying to kill them with guns.

Of course it is a lot of guesswork, we are trying to estimate the number of ducks that didn't quack. Defensive gun use usually leaves no evidence. Unlike guns killing people, which leaves evidence and is easier to estimate.

And you think criminals will stop having guns if guns are outlawed? Criminals are already mostly acquiring their guns illegally, and will continue to do so. It's the law-abiding citizens which would be disarmed by laws preventing people from getting guns, not the criminals.

Actually I do think exactly that.  Countries like Japan and others ban handguns entirely and severely restrict shotguns and rifles. Yet somehow they have some of the lowest gun deaths of anywhere.

If guns prevent violence, how come there is so little in countries and states with very few guns?   The data shows pretty clearly, more gun ownership correlates with more gun deaths.  If I wanted to be safest, I wouldn't live where there are more guns, but where there are less.

I am quite sure that correlation does not exist in Europe. Switzerland, Serbia and Finland are all countries with high gun ownership, yet are relatively low in violent crime. The UK has very low gun ownership, yet it is very high in violent crime (not as much as the US, but still very high compared to the rest of Europe).

Quote from: JJA on February 18, 2022, 05:36:44 AM

If guns prevent violence, how come there is so little in countries and states with very few guns?   The data shows pretty clearly, more gun ownership correlates with more gun deaths.  If I wanted to be safest, I wouldn't live where there are more guns, but where there are less.

Come on down under 

It's on my list of places I would love to visit.

I am quite sure that correlation does not exist in Europe. Switzerland, Serbia and Finland are all countries with high gun ownership, yet are relatively low in violent crime. The UK has very low gun ownership, yet it is very high in violent crime (not as much as the US, but still very high compared to the rest of Europe).

And giving everyone a tool designed to kill other people will make things more safe?

Quote from: Masalang the Torpedo on February 18, 2022, 05:39:40 AM

Quote from: JJA on February 18, 2022, 05:36:44 AM

If guns prevent violence, how come there is so little in countries and states with very few guns?   The data shows pretty clearly, more gun ownership correlates with more gun deaths.  If I wanted to be safest, I wouldn't live where there are more guns, but where there are less.

Come on down under 

It's on my list of places I would love to visit.

It's OK if you like the outback adventure. The cities and beaches are meh

Quote from: Themightykabool on February 18, 2022, 01:05:02 AM

So on the surface ya it looks that way.
Strange.
So more digging

- classification of "violent crime"
Uk classifies violent crime differently than usa.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violent_crime

Look, fine, nobody is denying USA is a horrible country to live in. It is high in violent crime and has a repressive and corrupt government. The question is whether guns are contributing to the bad situation, or whether they are making the situation slightly better.

amazingly immediately followed by...

Quote from: JJA on February 18, 2022, 05:36:44 AM

If guns prevent violence, how come there is so little in countries and states with very few guns?   The data shows pretty clearly, more gun ownership correlates with more gun deaths.  If I wanted to be safest, I wouldn't live where there are more guns, but where there are less.

I am quite sure that correlation does not exist in Europe. Switzerland, Serbia and Finland are all countries with high gun ownership, yet are relatively low in violent crime. The UK has very low gun ownership, yet it is very high in violent crime (not as much as the US, but still very high compared to the rest of Europe).

THEY DEFINE VIOLENT CRIME DIFFERENTLY

AND YES

CRIMINALS HAVE ACCESS TO GUNS TOO

And giving everyone a tool designed to kill other people will make things more safe?

Guns are not designed with killing people in mind, they are designed to have the capacity to kill somebody, which is sometimes necessary and often useful for self-defense. Guns are designed for self-defense and hunting.

Quote from: Masalang the Torpedo

And giving everyone a tool designed to kill other people will make things more safe?

Guns are not designed with killing people in mind, they are designed to have the capacity to kill somebody, which is sometimes necessary and often useful for self-defense. Guns are designed for self-defense and hunting.

So close. They are designed for killing, plain and simple.

Guns are not designed with killing people in mind

Killing living things is literally their only purpose.

Quote from: FlatAssembler on February 18, 2022, 07:43:41 AM

Guns are not designed with killing people in mind

Killing living things is literally their only purpose.

They are also for making people afraid. They do not need to be fired to be used in self-defence. Often times, it is enough to make the attacker aware you have a gun.

Quote from: JimmyTheCrab on February 18, 2022, 09:46:22 AM

Quote from: FlatAssembler on February 18, 2022, 07:43:41 AM

Guns are not designed with killing people in mind

Killing living things is literally their only purpose.

They are also for making people afraid. They do not need to be fired to be used in self-defence. Often times, it is enough to make the attacker aware you have a gun.

These are the ten cardinal rules of firearm safety:

- Treat every gun as if it were loaded.
- Make sure that any gun is ALWAYS pointed in a safe direction.
- Never point a gun at anything you do not intend to destroy.
- Be aware of your target, and what lies beyond it.
- When shooting targets, be sure that there is a backstop behind the target high enough and solid enough to stop the projectiles. The backstop should be free of hard objects to avoid ricochets.
- Always ensure your gun is open and unloaded before handing it to anyone.
- While hunting, always open and unload your gun before climbing under or over a fence, log, or stream.
- While hunting, always be able to identify your game before you pull the trigger.
- Never shoot at or over open water with anything other than a shotgun loaded with birdshot. Bullets will glance off water and fly wildly.
- Alcohol and firearms do not mix.

See number 3.

Quote from: FlatAssembler on February 18, 2022, 07:43:41 AM

Guns are not designed with killing people in mind

Killing living things is literally their only purpose.

Speed shooting is an american sport.

But yes
Everyone but flatass generally agree - killing is the purpose.