Airplanes don't exist

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FlatAssembler

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Airplanes don't exist
« on: July 05, 2017, 07:10:29 AM »
Our culture makes us hold many irrational beliefs. One of them is demonstrably the belief that airplanes exist. It's told us by our parents, told by our teachers, and most of us never really investigate it. And there is not much evidence of that.
Most of the arguments we use to prove airplanes exist can be used to prove that dragons exist as well. We sometimes see white lines in the sky and we say they are evidence of jet airplanes. But saying they are the evidence of dragons is just as valid. There are people who say they have flown on an airplane, and use it as a proof that airplanes exist. But they could just as easily say it for dragons. And history tells us that before people claimed to have flown on a dragon just as often as people say today they have been on an airplane.
In reality, what we usually mean when we say airplane is so called jet airplane, and they can be disproven with some basic physics. Jet airplanes are supposed to work by having water (or some other liquid) as a fuel and engines forcing that water to go out, so that that water accelerates and, by the Newton's third law, makes the airplane accelerate also. But remember the Torricelli's law? Most of the people have learned it school, they just have never really thought about it. If they have, they would realize that it makes  the airplanes impossible.
One of the well-known formulations of the Torricelli's law is that, when a liquid goes through a small hole (an outlet), its speed is determined by the formula:
Code: [Select]
v=sqrt(2*g*h)But there is a pretty obvious implication here. That is:
Code: [Select]
a=0The Newton's second law tells us:
Code: [Select]
F=m*aTherefore:
Code: [Select]
F=m*a=m*0=0So, by the Newton's third law:
Code: [Select]
F1=-F2
0=-F2
F2=-0=0
So, the force acting on an airplane itself is zero, so by the Newton's first law:
Code: [Select]
F=0
 |
 V
a=0
So, how can jet airplanes work in reality if they don't even work on paper? You may give me some counter-example to the Torricelli's law. But do the counter-examples matter? They don't. The Torricelli's law is derived from the Bernoulli's equation, and it's derived right from the Newton's three axioms.
Also, the burden of proof is definitely on you. You can't prove for anything that doesn't exist that it doesn't exist, but, in general, if something exists, you are able to prove it. And Occam's razor always favors more an explanation that involves someone lying or hallucinating than an explanation that involves something as complicated and as crazy sounding as airplanes.
And you might ask me what if I am wrong. So what if I am wrong? At least I am thinking about whether airplanes exist, and other people aren't thinking about that at all, they just accept what most people believe as fact. And you are way more likely to be wrong if you aren't thinking than if you are thinking.
(This is a satire of many arguments made on this forum!)
« Last Edit: July 05, 2017, 07:12:26 AM by FlatAssembler »
Fan of Stephen Wolfram.
This is my parody of the conspiracy theorists:
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=71184.0

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disputeone

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Re: Airplanes don't exist
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2017, 07:15:40 AM »
So when the liquid changes position, you are saying its acceleration is zero?



(This is a satire of many arguments made on this forum!)

Satire of what tho?
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this.

The reason I am consistently personally attacked here.
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=69306.msg1960160#msg1960160

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markjo

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Re: Airplanes don't exist
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2017, 07:48:44 AM »
Jet airplanes are supposed to work by having water (or some other liquid) as a fuel and engines forcing that water to go out, so that that water accelerates and, by the Newton's third law, makes the airplane accelerate also.
Incorrect.  The reaction mass of jet airplanes is, for the most part, the air that passes through the engine.

Good satire relies on you getting the basics right before you try to poke fun at it.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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FlatAssembler

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Re: Airplanes don't exist
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2017, 08:26:36 AM »
As if the conspiracy theorists usually got the basics right…
Fan of Stephen Wolfram.
This is my parody of the conspiracy theorists:
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=71184.0

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disputeone

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Re: Airplanes don't exist
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2017, 02:54:06 PM »
As if the conspiracy theorists usually got the basics right…

So you demonstrate that you are incapable of applying newtons second law and then blame it on "conspiracy theorists."

Hokay.
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this.

The reason I am consistently personally attacked here.
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=69306.msg1960160#msg1960160

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FlatAssembler

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Re: Airplanes don't exist
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2017, 11:47:45 PM »
As if the conspiracy theorists usually got the basics right…

So you demonstrate that you are incapable of applying newtons second law and then blame it on "conspiracy theorists."

Hokay.
No, I wanted to say that conspiracy theorists are intentionally misapplying laws of science (whether or not they themselves understand them correctly) in an effort to decieve people. I thought I made it quite obvious.
Fan of Stephen Wolfram.
This is my parody of the conspiracy theorists:
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=71184.0

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disputeone

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Re: Airplanes don't exist
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2017, 12:04:21 AM »
Example?
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this.

The reason I am consistently personally attacked here.
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=69306.msg1960160#msg1960160

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FlatAssembler

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Re: Airplanes don't exist
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2017, 11:58:17 PM »
Example?
Where have you been all until now? A good example may be the movie "A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Moon".
Fan of Stephen Wolfram.
This is my parody of the conspiracy theorists:
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=71184.0

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Bullwinkle

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Re: Airplanes don't exist
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2017, 02:56:08 AM »
when a liquid goes through a small hole (an outlet), its speed is determined by the formula:


Kaopectate.
RE can never win this argument.
FE can't be disproved.

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rabinoz

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Re: Airplanes don't exist
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2017, 05:25:40 AM »
As if the conspiracy theorists usually got the basics right…

So you demonstrate that you are incapable of applying newtons second law and then blame it on "conspiracy theorists."

Hokay.
Please explain just what is wrong with the application of "Newton's second law" in:
its speed is determined by the formula:
Code: [Select]
v=sqrt(2.g.h)
Maybe, for the simple minded, here there should have been added:
Code: [Select]
if h = constant, then v = constant
Code: [Select]
a = dv/dt, hence dv/dt = 0
Quote from: FlatAssembler
But there is a pretty obvious implication here. That is:
Code: [Select]
a=0The Newton's second law tells us:
Code: [Select]
F=m.aTherefore:
Code: [Select]
F=m.a=m.0=0
:P All that looks quite logical to me.  :P
8) Hint, look at what isn't there.  8)

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FlatAssembler

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Re: Airplanes don't exist
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2017, 06:38:04 AM »
I thought the error there was quite obvious and actually funny. Either I have a very bad sense of humour, or it's that very few people on this forum understand the basic physics.
Fan of Stephen Wolfram.
This is my parody of the conspiracy theorists:
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=71184.0

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disputeone

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Re: Airplanes don't exist
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2017, 02:39:15 AM »
I thought the error there was quite obvious and actually funny. Either I have a very bad sense of humour, or it's that very few people on this forum understand the basic physics.

Humour was lacking.

As if the conspiracy theorists usually got the basics right…

So you demonstrate that you are incapable of applying newtons second law and then blame it on "conspiracy theorists."

Hokay.
Please explain just what is wrong with the application of "Newton's second law" in:
its speed is determined by the formula:
Code: [Select]
v=sqrt(2.g.h)
Maybe, for the simple minded, here there should have been added:
Code: [Select]
if h = constant, then v = constant
Code: [Select]
a = dv/dt, hence dv/dt = 0
Quote from: FlatAssembler
But there is a pretty obvious implication here. That is:
Code: [Select]
a=0The Newton's second law tells us:
Code: [Select]
F=m.aTherefore:
Code: [Select]
F=m.a=m.0=0
:P All that looks quite logical to me.  :P
8) Hint, look at what isn't there.  8)

Rab mathematical application aside when the liquid moves it has an acceleration (edit for clarity.) Causes acceleration of the plane. Would you like to debate this point?

He has conclusively proven that if the planes engines aren't turned on, the plane won't fly. Forgive me trolling him a little.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2017, 06:25:30 PM by disputeone »
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this.

The reason I am consistently personally attacked here.
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=69306.msg1960160#msg1960160

Re: Airplanes don't exist
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2017, 04:27:59 PM »
I suggest you buy an airplane ticket and see for yourself.

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boydster

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Re: Airplanes don't exist
« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2017, 07:54:18 PM »
Rab mathematical application aside when the liquid moves it has an acceleration. Would you like to debate this point?

Hi. Not Rab, admittedly. Are you suggesting that for some reason, a collection of molecules in a certain phase can't move at a constant velocity?
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Bullwinkle

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Re: Airplanes don't exist
« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2017, 09:00:34 PM »

Jet airplanes are supposed to work by having water (or some other liquid) as a fuel and engines forcing that water to go out, so that that water accelerates and, by the Newton's third law, makes the airplane accelerate also.


No, I don't want fries with that.
RE can never win this argument.
FE can't be disproved.

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Sentinel

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Re: Airplanes don't exist
« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2017, 09:18:00 AM »
I would love to ride a dragon once, actually. Airplanes are really lame...  :-\
"No snowflake in an avalanche ever feels responsible."

Stanislaw Jerzy Lec

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disputeone

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Re: Airplanes don't exist
« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2017, 06:11:35 PM »
Rab mathematical application aside when the liquid moves it has an acceleration. Would you like to debate this point?

Hi. Not Rab, admittedly. Are you suggesting that for some reason, a collection of molecules in a certain phase can't move at a constant velocity?

No.

Seriously?

In a similar tone are you suggesting that a collection of molecules with a constant velocity being ejected from a plane won't create a force?

Lets check.

https://www.grc.nasa.gov/www/k-12/airplane/turbth.html

Ok.



He has conclusively proven that if the planes engines aren't turned on, the plane won't fly. Forgive me trolling him a little.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2017, 06:14:13 PM by disputeone »
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this.

The reason I am consistently personally attacked here.
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=69306.msg1960160#msg1960160

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boydster

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Re: Airplanes don't exist
« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2017, 06:42:36 PM »
Ok but V0 != Ve in your example. Similarly with the m terms. You said you were trolling, I get it. Forgive me for calling your shit. Liquid/fluid/matter does not have an acceleration just because it's moving. That's the thing you stated that is wrong. No more, no less.

I see you edited your post now.


In a similar tone are you suggesting that a collection of molecules with a constant velocity being ejected from a plane won't create a force?

Well that depends on if anything happens to those molecules, now doesn't it? If no combustion reaction occurs in the engine, those molecules move right on through at a constant velocity (barring friction... You know, Newton's laws and all that) and no force is generated. Plane falls from sky. Your drawing says something different than your words.
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disputeone

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Re: Airplanes don't exist
« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2017, 06:45:55 PM »
I suggest you turn on a garden hose.

It should clear up a few things.

All the best man. I understand that everyone has to attack my posts.

Alternately drive a remote controlled car into another rc car at a constant velocity and note if it causes an acceleration of either car.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2017, 06:53:34 PM by disputeone »
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this.

The reason I am consistently personally attacked here.
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=69306.msg1960160#msg1960160

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boydster

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Re: Airplanes don't exist
« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2017, 06:52:42 PM »
You really have a victim thing going on. Sorry man. But I'm not attacking you because it's the cool thing to do. I'm challenging your argument.

Water moving through a garden hose has an additional force acting on it. Namely, the pressure that is being applied, whether gravity (water tower) or pumps. It's not just freely moving. Not nearly the same as air flowing through a tube without a combustion reaction to create different molecules plus heat and expansion
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disputeone

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Re: Airplanes don't exist
« Reply #20 on: July 20, 2017, 06:57:15 PM »
We're talking about planes. The planes use combustion to create force through acceleration of mass. A very large garden hose could create the same effect without combustion. That is creating a force by moving (accelerating) a mass.

I'm not folowing your argument at all.

The free flowing air does indeed cause and acceleration (deceleration) of the plane while the plane has a velocity different to that of the surrounding air.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2017, 07:27:24 PM by disputeone »
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this.

The reason I am consistently personally attacked here.
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=69306.msg1960160#msg1960160

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boydster

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Re: Airplanes don't exist
« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2017, 07:04:47 PM »
We're talking about planes. The planes use combustion to create force through acceleration of mass. A very large garden hose could create the same effect without combustion. That is creating a force by moving (accelerating) a mass.

I'm not folowing your argument at all.

The water doesn't just move through the garden hose because it feels like it. There is an outside force acting on it. You aren't accounting for that force when you say "turn on your hose." That's as weak an argument as "look out your window" dude.

The hose generates a force pushing away from the water because there is either a water pump (as in, people with a well in their yard and pump the water to their house) or gravity (if you have a municipal water supply and a huge amount of water is being stored in a water tower high up in the air, resulting in high potential energy that is converted to kinetic energy as the water is attempting to drain out of the tower through whatever openings it can find that are below the height of the tower) acting on the water, creating pressure, which is converted into a force you can feel when the water can move from an area of high pressure to an area of lower pressure. But SOMETHING has to provide that differential.
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disputeone

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Re: Airplanes don't exist
« Reply #22 on: July 20, 2017, 07:07:13 PM »
The water doesn't just move through the garden hose because it feels like it.

SOMETHING has to provide that differential.

So this?

He has conclusively proven that if the planes engines aren't turned on, the plane won't fly.

I'm not arguing against that. If the engines aren't turned on the plane won't fly. It would be silly to argue that.

This is a little embarrassing tbh.

« Last Edit: July 20, 2017, 07:10:34 PM by disputeone »
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this.

The reason I am consistently personally attacked here.
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=69306.msg1960160#msg1960160

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boydster

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Re: Airplanes don't exist
« Reply #23 on: July 20, 2017, 07:18:37 PM »
No. Not that. I thought that was clear. It was the argument that simply because stuff is moving, it's accelerating, and turning on a garden hose is proof.
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disputeone

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Re: Airplanes don't exist
« Reply #24 on: July 20, 2017, 07:20:07 PM »
Not at all.

I should have been more clear.

Edit.

We can see clearly in the picture I presented that if Ve is greater than Vo there is a force.



A change in velocity requires an acceleration.

Again if the engines aren't turned on the plane won't fly.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2017, 07:31:29 PM by disputeone »
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this.

The reason I am consistently personally attacked here.
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=69306.msg1960160#msg1960160

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disputeone

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Re: Airplanes don't exist
« Reply #25 on: July 20, 2017, 07:35:39 PM »
I know you're not stupid. I thought perhaps you knew I wasn't stupid.

Acceleration is different than velocity. I concede it and would never argue that they are the same thing. Not sure what else I can say...

Sorry I guess.
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this.

The reason I am consistently personally attacked here.
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=69306.msg1960160#msg1960160

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boydster

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Re: Airplanes don't exist
« Reply #26 on: July 20, 2017, 07:39:27 PM »
We had a spat there. Things were said.  I think we misunderstood each other.

I still love you, you kangaroo-punching beast, you. ;) :-*
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boydster

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Re: Airplanes don't exist
« Reply #27 on: July 20, 2017, 07:42:01 PM »
I know you're not stupid. I thought perhaps you knew I wasn't stupid.

Acceleration is different than velocity. I concede it and would never argue that they are the same thing. Not sure what else I can say...

Sorry I guess.

I know you're not stupid. I thought you were on full-troll mode and testing the waters to see what would fly with being contested. Misread the situation.
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disputeone

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Re: Airplanes don't exist
« Reply #28 on: July 20, 2017, 07:44:52 PM »
It's fine to dislike me. I am very opinionated and don't spare anyones feelings. I don't expect people to like me.

I do have a "victim complex" here.

To be fair it took approximately 20 000 posts of dismissing everything and anything I say on the basis that I have a mental illness. I got sick of it, not gonna lie.

Anyway as I said all the best.
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this.

The reason I am consistently personally attacked here.
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=69306.msg1960160#msg1960160

Re: Airplanes don't exist
« Reply #29 on: July 21, 2017, 12:37:00 PM »
I suggest you buy an airplane ticket and see for yourself.
And, if you see something you can't explain, isn't it more likely that you are hallucinating than that it's real? Think of the dragons.

Joking aside. Anyway, I think that the solution to the FlatAssembler's puzzle is that the Torricelli's law dictates the speed of the fluid right when it's left the container. Of course the fluid needs to accelerate in the container to reach that speed.