If I jump in the air why doesn't the ground move @ 1000MPH?

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sceptimatic

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Re: If I jump in the air why doesn't the ground move @ 1000MPH?
« Reply #240 on: November 08, 2013, 03:23:27 AM »
- The earth rotates @ ~1000mph at the equator, west to east
Ok, fair enough.
- The atmosphere rotates with the earth at roughly the same speed, ie relative speed of the air to the ground is ~0.
Fair enough.
- Therefore, true airspeed and ground speed are close to the same (affected only by winds)
Fair enough.
Now, to keep it simple, let's assume nil wind (it does happen sometimes), all flying will be at sea level, observer A is sitting on the ground, and observer B is sitting at L1 (a location from which a point on the equator will appear to move east at ~1000mph) with a very powerful telescope pointed at earth:
Ok.
- Aircraft X is sitting on the ground with 0 airspeed and 0 ground speed. Observer A sees aircraft X not moving at all. Observer B sees aircraft X moving east at ~1000mph.
Ok.
- Aircraft Y is flying west at ~1000mph airspeed. Since there is no wind today, ground speed is also ~1000mph. Observer A sees aircraft Y fly past at ~1000mph going west. Observer B sees aircraft Y apparently stationary, with the earth rotating beneath it.
Ok.
- Aircraft Z is flying east at ~1000mph airspeed. Since there is no wind today, ground speed is also ~1000mph. Observer A sees aircraft Z fly past at ~1000mph going east. Observer B sees aircraft Z apparently traveling east at ~2000mph!
ok.
Okay, before you start raving on about whether all that is right or wrong, possible or impossible, just let me know: were you able to follow it without getting lost or confused along the way? If not, then there's no point making claims about it's accuracy. If you did follow it okay, then explain to me why you think it's wrong.
It's not wrong. However, you are still missing the vital point.

Here's a clue:
Concentrate on why I had the plane going anti clockwise at 1000 mph and then about turning it to go clockwise and maintaining the 1000 mph speed. This is the key part.
That's a change in velocity of 2000mph.
No it's not.
Remember, I have to go with the bull crap rotating earth here and also play you people at your own game, because you use side step theories to explain how the earth works in rotation and it SHOULD reek of nonsense to you but obviously it doesn't, which makes me question the logic of you and others.

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11cookeaw1

Re: If I jump in the air why doesn't the ground move @ 1000MPH?
« Reply #241 on: November 08, 2013, 04:16:44 AM »
All I'm saying is, there is no 2000 mph speed of the plane at any time where this rotating earth comes in.
Talk to me like you're explaining it to a 5 year old if you think I'm wrong.
Let me try the 4 year old level...

A fishtank full of water is being pulled with a wagon.  A fish is swimming through the water.  The fish is swimming the same direction the tank is being pulled.  The fish is therefore moving faster than the water and tank.
But not faster than the wagon pulling it.
It is going faster then the wagon pulling it.
No it's not.
The wagon and the tank are going at the same speed. So if the fish is going faster then the tank it's going faster the wagon.

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11cookeaw1

Re: If I jump in the air why doesn't the ground move @ 1000MPH?
« Reply #242 on: November 08, 2013, 04:19:44 AM »
- The earth rotates @ ~1000mph at the equator, west to east
Ok, fair enough.
- The atmosphere rotates with the earth at roughly the same speed, ie relative speed of the air to the ground is ~0.
Fair enough.
- Therefore, true airspeed and ground speed are close to the same (affected only by winds)
Fair enough.
Now, to keep it simple, let's assume nil wind (it does happen sometimes), all flying will be at sea level, observer A is sitting on the ground, and observer B is sitting at L1 (a location from which a point on the equator will appear to move east at ~1000mph) with a very powerful telescope pointed at earth:
Ok.
- Aircraft X is sitting on the ground with 0 airspeed and 0 ground speed. Observer A sees aircraft X not moving at all. Observer B sees aircraft X moving east at ~1000mph.
Ok.
- Aircraft Y is flying west at ~1000mph airspeed. Since there is no wind today, ground speed is also ~1000mph. Observer A sees aircraft Y fly past at ~1000mph going west. Observer B sees aircraft Y apparently stationary, with the earth rotating beneath it.
Ok.
- Aircraft Z is flying east at ~1000mph airspeed. Since there is no wind today, ground speed is also ~1000mph. Observer A sees aircraft Z fly past at ~1000mph going east. Observer B sees aircraft Z apparently traveling east at ~2000mph!
ok.
Okay, before you start raving on about whether all that is right or wrong, possible or impossible, just let me know: were you able to follow it without getting lost or confused along the way? If not, then there's no point making claims about it's accuracy. If you did follow it okay, then explain to me why you think it's wrong.
It's not wrong. However, you are still missing the vital point.

Here's a clue:
Concentrate on why I had the plane going anti clockwise at 1000 mph and then about turning it to go clockwise and maintaining the 1000 mph speed. This is the key part.
That's a change in velocity of 2000mph.
No it's not.
Remember, I have to go with the bull crap rotating earth here and also play you people at your own game, because you use side step theories to explain how the earth works in rotation and it SHOULD reek of nonsense to you but obviously it doesn't, which makes me question the logic of you and others.
If it's at first going 1000mph in one direction compared to an object, and then it goes 1000mph in the opposite direction compared to the object, then there's a 2000mph change in velocity compared to the object. In this case the object is the earth or the observer on the earth. If object A is going 1000 mph compared to Object B in one direction, and object C is going 1000mph compared to object B in the opposite direction, then object A and C are travelling at 2000mph compared to each other.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2013, 04:21:24 AM by 11cookeaw1 »

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sceptimatic

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Re: If I jump in the air why doesn't the ground move @ 1000MPH?
« Reply #243 on: November 08, 2013, 04:21:09 AM »
All I'm saying is, there is no 2000 mph speed of the plane at any time where this rotating earth comes in.
Talk to me like you're explaining it to a 5 year old if you think I'm wrong.
Let me try the 4 year old level...

A fishtank full of water is being pulled with a wagon.  A fish is swimming through the water.  The fish is swimming the same direction the tank is being pulled.  The fish is therefore moving faster than the water and tank.
But not faster than the wagon pulling it.
It is going faster then the wagon pulling it.
No it's not.
The wagon and the tank are going at the same speed. So if the fish is going faster then the tank it's going faster the wagon.
No it's not.

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sceptimatic

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Re: If I jump in the air why doesn't the ground move @ 1000MPH?
« Reply #244 on: November 08, 2013, 04:23:23 AM »
If it's at first going 1000mph in one direction compared to an object, and then it goes 1000mph in the opposite direction compared to the object, then there's a 2000mph change in velocity compared to the object. In this case the object is the earth or the observer on the earth. If object A is going 1000 mph compared to Object B in one direction, and object C is going 1000mph compared to object B in the opposite direction, then object A and C are travelling at 2000mph compared to each other.
There is no 2000 mph in how I explained it, so why are you pushing 2000 mph?
Read back and look at my diagrams, CAREFULLY and try and grasp what I'm saying. I won't hold my breath, though.

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BJ1234

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Re: If I jump in the air why doesn't the ground move @ 1000MPH?
« Reply #245 on: November 08, 2013, 05:14:20 AM »
I have used no big equations.  Just simple addition and subtraction.

Let us forget about the airplane and traveling speeds.  Let us just do an example with distance so the concept could become clear.
Your house is ten miles east of school. The store is ten miles east of you house.  How far apart are the school and the store?
We know that 10+10=20.  The store is 20 miles from the school.  Now if you told someone at the school to go to the store and just told them it is 20 miles away, they wouldn't know the direction to go in because you left out a key pieceof information.  You need to tell them 20 miles east.

Now if you are traveling 10 mph east now you want to go 10. Mph west, you need to change your velocity by 20 mph.  10 mph to stop going east and 10 mph to start going west.  If you only change your velocity by 10 mph, you would be stopped.

Theissue appears to be jumping around in reference frame. Each observer has his own reference frame. 

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Rabhimself

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Re: If I jump in the air why doesn't the ground move @ 1000MPH?
« Reply #246 on: November 08, 2013, 05:29:23 AM »
All I'm saying is, there is no 2000 mph speed of the plane at any time where this rotating earth comes in.
Talk to me like you're explaining it to a 5 year old if you think I'm wrong.
Let me try the 4 year old level...

A fishtank full of water is being pulled with a wagon.  A fish is swimming through the water.  The fish is swimming the same direction the tank is being pulled.  The fish is therefore moving faster than the water and tank.
But not faster than the wagon pulling it.
It is going faster then the wagon pulling it.
No it's not.
The wagon and the tank are going at the same speed. So if the fish is going faster then the tank it's going faster the wagon.
No it's not.

Honestly lost for words. 

Imagine the tank is touching the wagon that is pulling it as they move forward.  The fish is swimming in the same direction as the wagon.

Is the fish going to bump into the wall between the tank and wagon - yes or no?  I.e., is the fish going to catch the rear end of the wagon?

You're on a train and you see your friend further along the carriage in the direction you are travelling.  You get up to go and meet them.  Are you seriously telling us that while you are walking towards your friend, you are not travelling faster than the train itself?  In other words - it's impossible for you to get to your friend?

Unreal.

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sceptimatic

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Re: If I jump in the air why doesn't the ground move @ 1000MPH?
« Reply #247 on: November 08, 2013, 05:36:44 AM »
I have used no big equations.  Just simple addition and subtraction.

Let us forget about the airplane and traveling speeds.  Let us just do an example with distance so the concept could become clear.
Your house is ten miles east of school. The store is ten miles east of you house.  How far apart are the school and the store?
We know that 10+10=20.  The store is 20 miles from the school.  Now if you told someone at the school to go to the store and just told them it is 20 miles away, they wouldn't know the direction to go in because you left out a key pieceof information.  You need to tell them 20 miles east.

Now if you are traveling 10 mph east now you want to go 10. Mph west, you need to change your velocity by 20 mph.  10 mph to stop going east and 10 mph to start going west.  If you only change your velocity by 10 mph, you would be stopped.

Theissue appears to be jumping around in reference frame. Each observer has his own reference frame.
Ok, I'm going to put it very plainly to you and the rest of your crew.

When the plane travels AGAINST the 1000 mph rotation, it CANCELS out the 1000 mph atmosphere that would have normally took it around the earth in unison with the solid ground. Ok so far?

So now, the earth under the plane to the pilot is whizzing by at 1000 mph and his air speed indicator says 1000 mph, so he can also assume his plane is doing 1000 mph. Basically if he didn't look at his air speed indicator or it was broken and reading 0mph, he could assume he was hovering and it is the actual earth that's moving at 1000 mph under him.

Have you got this, so far?
Do you see how silly this is getting?
Can you not see how they fill your head full of garbage and make you believe this stuff?
NO?

Ok, then, let's move on.

Now remember. The plane has CANCELLED out the 1000 mph atmospheric drag against it by going at 1000 mph AGAINST that atmosphere, so basically its nullified it and the atmosphere cannot drag the plane back like the earth does with the atmosphere, because what supposedly took millions of years for the earth to achieve in picking up this atmosphere...the plane has nullified it quite quickly.

So all the plane is dealing with now, is a rotating earth...OR...a speeding plane, depending on what the pilot with the broken speedo decides, as he can take his pick, yet he want's to find out, so the best way to do this, is for him to test out whether it's his plane, or it's the moving earth.

To do this, he turns his plane around and goes WITH the rotation of the earth, still at 1000 mph. It doesn't matter whether the turn takes any speed away , because, as I said, he already nullified the atmospheric resistance of earth/atmosphere,drag.

So now he executes his turn and is now going at 1000 mph along with the earth's 1000 mph rotation and what does he see?
Well, he sees that his plane is going at 1000, which you would expect him to see.

What he should see...if your rotating globe is correct, is his plane hovering above the ground, as if he was in a hovering helicopter...which he does not.

Now before you jump in...have a real good think about what I've just said and we will go on from there, where you will call me stupid or something or I don't know how physics works and all that baloney..then you will most likely use a train or some kind of tin can contraption to try and boggle peoples minds into actually believing I am a total nut job that knows nothing.

I'm telling you this, so it saves you typing it all out, because I'm generous and kind hearted, like that.
Over to you.

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sceptimatic

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Re: If I jump in the air why doesn't the ground move @ 1000MPH?
« Reply #248 on: November 08, 2013, 05:42:00 AM »
All I'm saying is, there is no 2000 mph speed of the plane at any time where this rotating earth comes in.
Talk to me like you're explaining it to a 5 year old if you think I'm wrong.
Let me try the 4 year old level...

A fishtank full of water is being pulled with a wagon.  A fish is swimming through the water.  The fish is swimming the same direction the tank is being pulled.  The fish is therefore moving faster than the water and tank.
But not faster than the wagon pulling it.
It is going faster then the wagon pulling it.
No it's not.
The wagon and the tank are going at the same speed. So if the fish is going faster then the tank it's going faster the wagon.
No it's not.

Honestly lost for words. 

Imagine the tank is touching the wagon that is pulling it as they move forward.  The fish is swimming in the same direction as the wagon.

Is the fish going to bump into the wall between the tank and wagon - yes or no?  I.e., is the fish going to catch the rear end of the wagon?

You're on a train and you see your friend further along the carriage in the direction you are travelling.  You get up to go and meet them.  Are you seriously telling us that while you are walking towards your friend, you are not travelling faster than the train itself?  In other words - it's impossible for you to get to your friend?

Unreal.
No. You are on the train, as the fish is in the tank. The fish is swimming at whatever mph and the person is walking at, say, 5mph.
The fish isn't going faster than the wagon, it's part of the wagon, it's simply going at it's normal pace, just as the person in the train is.

It's about an outsiders perception that you are talking about and it is just a perception.
Basically, what I'm saying, is, it's a pointless argument.

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Rabhimself

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Re: If I jump in the air why doesn't the ground move @ 1000MPH?
« Reply #249 on: November 08, 2013, 05:54:18 AM »
All I'm saying is, there is no 2000 mph speed of the plane at any time where this rotating earth comes in.
Talk to me like you're explaining it to a 5 year old if you think I'm wrong.
Let me try the 4 year old level...

A fishtank full of water is being pulled with a wagon.  A fish is swimming through the water.  The fish is swimming the same direction the tank is being pulled.  The fish is therefore moving faster than the water and tank.
But not faster than the wagon pulling it.
It is going faster then the wagon pulling it.
No it's not.
The wagon and the tank are going at the same speed. So if the fish is going faster then the tank it's going faster the wagon.
No it's not.

Honestly lost for words. 

Imagine the tank is touching the wagon that is pulling it as they move forward.  The fish is swimming in the same direction as the wagon.

Is the fish going to bump into the wall between the tank and wagon - yes or no?  I.e., is the fish going to catch the rear end of the wagon?

You're on a train and you see your friend further along the carriage in the direction you are travelling.  You get up to go and meet them.  Are you seriously telling us that while you are walking towards your friend, you are not travelling faster than the train itself?  In other words - it's impossible for you to get to your friend?

Unreal.
No. You are on the train, as the fish is in the tank. The fish is swimming at whatever mph and the person is walking at, say, 5mph.
The fish isn't going faster than the wagon, it's part of the wagon, it's simply going at it's normal pace, just as the person in the train is.

It's about an outsiders perception that you are talking about and it is just a perception.
Basically, what I'm saying, is, it's a pointless argument.

Right.  What you are saying is that when I'm walking on the train, my own personal speed is 4/5 mph.  However, surely you must see that in order for me to reach my friend I have to have an overall speed that is greater than that of the train?  You're effectively saying that when you are sitting still on the train you have ZERO speed - when of course you must, because you are travelling somewhere.

No?

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sceptimatic

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Re: If I jump in the air why doesn't the ground move @ 1000MPH?
« Reply #250 on: November 08, 2013, 05:58:48 AM »


Right.  What you are saying is that when I'm walking on the train, my own personal speed is 4/5 mph.  However, surely you must see that in order for me to reach my friend I have to have an overall speed that is greater than that of the train?  You're effectively saying that when you are sitting still on the train you have ZERO speed - when of course you must, because you are travelling somewhere.

No?
When you are sat on the train, you have zero speed. Correct!
If you walk along the train, you are walking at whatever speed you are walking and that's it. The train is irrelevant as you are part of it.

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DuckDodgers

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Re: If I jump in the air why doesn't the ground move @ 1000MPH?
« Reply #251 on: November 08, 2013, 06:07:27 AM »
Scepti, let's nail down some basics.  Are you allowing the RE explanation that the air rotates with the earth so that both are traveling at 1k mph?  So you agree that if both are traveling at the same speed they do not move relative to each other?   It seems you are getting mixed up and assuming the 1k mph speed of the air does not impart its speed onto the plane.
I'll tell you what! we will go with the very start and the very basics and maybe you will see where I'm coming from.

Let's start with the aircraft on the solid ground and you observe this, whilst I observe it as a stationary person in space, looking down at you, whilst wearing big jam jar glasses. lol

Ok! you see the aircraft as stationary, just as you are stationary, yet I see you and the aircraft rotating at 1000 mph ANTI CLOCKWISE (for instance).

Do we agree on this first part, 100%?
Correct.  You may proceed with the next portion.
If the aircraft simply hovers above the person on the ground, it's basically stationary to the person on the ground.
The earth and person stood on it does not move away from the aircraft, because somehow the atmosphere coupled with the earth's 1000 mph motion drags the aircraft along with it, keeping it still to the person on the ground.
From an observer in so called space, who is stationary, he/she will observe the earth and the aircraft rotating at 1000 mph.

Am I correct in your thinking up to now?
I have to do it this way if we are to achieve clarity.
Correct so far.  There is no noticeable difference between it sitting in the ground and hovering in terms of these observers.
markjo, what force can not pass through a solid or liquid?
Magnetism for one and electric is the other.

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sceptimatic

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Re: If I jump in the air why doesn't the ground move @ 1000MPH?
« Reply #252 on: November 08, 2013, 06:09:09 AM »
Scepti, let's nail down some basics.  Are you allowing the RE explanation that the air rotates with the earth so that both are traveling at 1k mph?  So you agree that if both are traveling at the same speed they do not move relative to each other?   It seems you are getting mixed up and assuming the 1k mph speed of the air does not impart its speed onto the plane.
I'll tell you what! we will go with the very start and the very basics and maybe you will see where I'm coming from.

Let's start with the aircraft on the solid ground and you observe this, whilst I observe it as a stationary person in space, looking down at you, whilst wearing big jam jar glasses. lol

Ok! you see the aircraft as stationary, just as you are stationary, yet I see you and the aircraft rotating at 1000 mph ANTI CLOCKWISE (for instance).

Do we agree on this first part, 100%?
Correct.  You may proceed with the next portion.
If the aircraft simply hovers above the person on the ground, it's basically stationary to the person on the ground.
The earth and person stood on it does not move away from the aircraft, because somehow the atmosphere coupled with the earth's 1000 mph motion drags the aircraft along with it, keeping it still to the person on the ground.
From an observer in so called space, who is stationary, he/she will observe the earth and the aircraft rotating at 1000 mph.

Am I correct in your thinking up to now?
I have to do it this way if we are to achieve clarity.
Correct so far.  There is no noticeable difference between it sitting in the ground and hovering in terms of these observers.
See post 247 and see what you can come up with.

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DuckDodgers

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Re: If I jump in the air why doesn't the ground move @ 1000MPH?
« Reply #253 on: November 08, 2013, 06:17:53 AM »
Scepti, let's nail down some basics.  Are you allowing the RE explanation that the air rotates with the earth so that both are traveling at 1k mph?  So you agree that if both are traveling at the same speed they do not move relative to each other?   It seems you are getting mixed up and assuming the 1k mph speed of the air does not impart its speed onto the plane.
I'll tell you what! we will go with the very start and the very basics and maybe you will see where I'm coming from.

Let's start with the aircraft on the solid ground and you observe this, whilst I observe it as a stationary person in space, looking down at you, whilst wearing big jam jar glasses. lol

Ok! you see the aircraft as stationary, just as you are stationary, yet I see you and the aircraft rotating at 1000 mph ANTI CLOCKWISE (for instance).

Do we agree on this first part, 100%?
Correct.  You may proceed with the next portion.
If the aircraft simply hovers above the person on the ground, it's basically stationary to the person on the ground.
The earth and person stood on it does not move away from the aircraft, because somehow the atmosphere coupled with the earth's 1000 mph motion drags the aircraft along with it, keeping it still to the person on the ground.
From an observer in so called space, who is stationary, he/she will observe the earth and the aircraft rotating at 1000 mph.

Am I correct in your thinking up to now?
I have to do it this way if we are to achieve clarity.
Correct so far.  There is no noticeable difference between it sitting in the ground and hovering in terms of these observers.
See post 247 and see what you can come up with.
You're falling apart in the turn.  Because the rotation speed was cancelled out previously doesn't mean it no longer acts on the plane.  You're math looks like 1k-1k=0 which is right then when it is turned 1k+1k=1k you subtract velocities when they act against each other and add them when they move with each other.
markjo, what force can not pass through a solid or liquid?
Magnetism for one and electric is the other.

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Don Quichotte

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Re: If I jump in the air why doesn't the ground move @ 1000MPH?
« Reply #254 on: November 08, 2013, 06:19:04 AM »
Sceptimatic. Reading through the posts..you seem to understand how it's suppose to work, but only wonder what happens when the plane starts to turn. So as it is flying east to west or west to east, it then starts a turn turn to the north or south.

Am I correct?

Well, it does not affect the plane at all. The plane is constantly dragged along with the earth's rotation. I am not sure if you read my formula I posted?

There is S - The aircraft is seen travelling at a speed observed by an observer on earth.
There is V - The speed the aircraft is flying at
There is R - The speed of the earth's rotation

Since the aircraft is on the earth, it will constantly face the rotation speed. Whether it is sitting on the ground or in the air, the speed of the aircraft is constantly R. On top of R you can have the aircraft speed, which is denoted by V. Therefore (R+V).
Because the earth's rotation is always there, you also have to deduce R from the aircraft speed, to get the aircraft's speed.
So  (R+V) - R

The complete formula therefore becomes  S = (R+V) - R


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sceptimatic

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Re: If I jump in the air why doesn't the ground move @ 1000MPH?
« Reply #255 on: November 08, 2013, 06:23:39 AM »
Scepti, let's nail down some basics.  Are you allowing the RE explanation that the air rotates with the earth so that both are traveling at 1k mph?  So you agree that if both are traveling at the same speed they do not move relative to each other?   It seems you are getting mixed up and assuming the 1k mph speed of the air does not impart its speed onto the plane.
I'll tell you what! we will go with the very start and the very basics and maybe you will see where I'm coming from.

Let's start with the aircraft on the solid ground and you observe this, whilst I observe it as a stationary person in space, looking down at you, whilst wearing big jam jar glasses. lol

Ok! you see the aircraft as stationary, just as you are stationary, yet I see you and the aircraft rotating at 1000 mph ANTI CLOCKWISE (for instance).

Do we agree on this first part, 100%?
Correct.  You may proceed with the next portion.
If the aircraft simply hovers above the person on the ground, it's basically stationary to the person on the ground.
The earth and person stood on it does not move away from the aircraft, because somehow the atmosphere coupled with the earth's 1000 mph motion drags the aircraft along with it, keeping it still to the person on the ground.
From an observer in so called space, who is stationary, he/she will observe the earth and the aircraft rotating at 1000 mph.

Am I correct in your thinking up to now?
I have to do it this way if we are to achieve clarity.
Correct so far.  There is no noticeable difference between it sitting in the ground and hovering in terms of these observers.
See post 247 and see what you can come up with.
You're falling apart in the turn.  Because the rotation speed was cancelled out previously doesn't mean it no longer acts on the plane.  You're math looks like 1k-1k=0 which is right then when it is turned 1k+1k=1k you subtract velocities when they act against each other and add them when they move with each other.
Correct, but you do not need to add a velocity that has been cancelled out. It becomes irrelevant in normal logical terms, except those who try and push the magic.
The theory of a rotating earth falls completely apart with what I've just explained.

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sceptimatic

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Re: If I jump in the air why doesn't the ground move @ 1000MPH?
« Reply #256 on: November 08, 2013, 06:29:49 AM »
Sceptimatic. Reading through the posts..you seem to understand how it's suppose to work, but only wonder what happens when the plane starts to turn. So as it is flying east to west or west to east, it then starts a turn turn to the north or south.

Am I correct?

Well, it does not affect the plane at all. The plane is constantly dragged along with the earth's rotation. I am not sure if you read my formula I posted?

There is S - The aircraft is seen travelling at a speed observed by an observer on earth.
There is V - The speed the aircraft is flying at
There is R - The speed of the earth's rotation

Since the aircraft is on the earth, it will constantly face the rotation speed. Whether it is sitting on the ground or in the air, the speed of the aircraft is constantly R. On top of R you can have the aircraft speed, which is denoted by V. Therefore (R+V).
Because the earth's rotation is always there, you also have to deduce R from the aircraft speed, to get the aircraft's speed.
So  (R+V) - R

The complete formula therefore becomes  S = (R+V) - R
I don't care for your formulas, they mean absolutely nothing.
Now this piece you put, I'd like you to explain WHY the plane cannot cancel out the atmospheric drag.
Be simplistic and don't use silly, S=R x blah de blah de blah, because it cuts no ice with me and is a simple distraction that I won't accept.
Sceptimatic. Reading through the posts..you seem to understand how it's suppose to work, but only wonder what happens when the plane starts to turn. So as it is flying east to west or west to east, it then starts a turn turn to the north or south.

Am I correct?

Well, it does not affect the plane at all. The plane is constantly dragged along with the earth's rotation. I am not sure if you read my formula I posted?
So, explain why a plane cannot nullify the drag of the ATMOSPHERE by flying AGAINST the flow.

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sceptimatic

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Re: If I jump in the air why doesn't the ground move @ 1000MPH?
« Reply #257 on: November 08, 2013, 06:31:20 AM »
Scepti, let's nail down some basics.  Are you allowing the RE explanation that the air rotates with the earth so that both are traveling at 1k mph?  So you agree that if both are traveling at the same speed they do not move relative to each other?   It seems you are getting mixed up and assuming the 1k mph speed of the air does not impart its speed onto the plane.
I'll tell you what! we will go with the very start and the very basics and maybe you will see where I'm coming from.

Let's start with the aircraft on the solid ground and you observe this, whilst I observe it as a stationary person in space, looking down at you, whilst wearing big jam jar glasses. lol

Ok! you see the aircraft as stationary, just as you are stationary, yet I see you and the aircraft rotating at 1000 mph ANTI CLOCKWISE (for instance).

Do we agree on this first part, 100%?
Correct.  You may proceed with the next portion.
If the aircraft simply hovers above the person on the ground, it's basically stationary to the person on the ground.
The earth and person stood on it does not move away from the aircraft, because somehow the atmosphere coupled with the earth's 1000 mph motion drags the aircraft along with it, keeping it still to the person on the ground.
From an observer in so called space, who is stationary, he/she will observe the earth and the aircraft rotating at 1000 mph.

Am I correct in your thinking up to now?
I have to do it this way if we are to achieve clarity.
Correct so far.  There is no noticeable difference between it sitting in the ground and hovering in terms of these observers.
See post 247 and see what you can come up with.
You're falling apart in the turn.  Because the rotation speed was cancelled out previously doesn't mean it no longer acts on the plane.  You're math looks like 1k-1k=0 which is right then when it is turned 1k+1k=1k you subtract velocities when they act against each other and add them when they move with each other.
You mean it miraculously grips the plane again at 1000 mph, just like that?

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BJ1234

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Re: If I jump in the air why doesn't the ground move @ 1000MPH?
« Reply #258 on: November 08, 2013, 06:37:37 AM »
I have used no big equations.  Just simple addition and subtraction.

Let us forget about the airplane and traveling speeds.  Let us just do an example with distance so the concept could become clear.
Your house is ten miles east of school. The store is ten miles east of you house.  How far apart are the school and the store?
We know that 10+10=20.  The store is 20 miles from the school.  Now if you told someone at the school to go to the store and just told them it is 20 miles away, they wouldn't know the direction to go in because you left out a key pieceof information.  You need to tell them 20 miles east.

Now if you are traveling 10 mph east now you want to go 10. Mph west, you need to change your velocity by 20 mph.  10 mph to stop going east and 10 mph to start going west.  If you only change your velocity by 10 mph, you would be stopped.

Theissue appears to be jumping around in reference frame. Each observer has his own reference frame.
Ok, I'm going to put it very plainly to you and the rest of your crew.

When the plane travels AGAINST the 1000 mph rotation, it CANCELS out the 1000 mph atmosphere that would have normally took it around the earth in unison with the solid ground. Ok so far?

So now, the earth under the plane to the pilot is whizzing by at 1000 mph and his air speed indicator says 1000 mph, so he can also assume his plane is doing 1000 mph. Basically if he didn't look at his air speed indicator or it was broken and reading 0mph, he could assume he was hovering and it is the actual earth that's moving at 1000 mph under him.

Have you got this, so far?
Do you see how silly this is getting?
Can you not see how they fill your head full of garbage and make you believe this stuff?
NO?

Ok, then, let's move on.

Now remember. The plane has CANCELLED out the 1000 mph atmospheric drag against it by going at 1000 mph AGAINST that atmosphere, so basically its nullified it and the atmosphere cannot drag the plane back like the earth does with the atmosphere, because what supposedly took millions of years for the earth to achieve in picking up this atmosphere...the plane has nullified it quite quickly.

So all the plane is dealing with now, is a rotating earth...OR...a speeding plane, depending on what the pilot with the broken speedo decides, as he can take his pick, yet he want's to find out, so the best way to do this, is for him to test out whether it's his plane, or it's the moving earth.

To do this, he turns his plane around and goes WITH the rotation of the earth, still at 1000 mph. It doesn't matter whether the turn takes any speed away , because, as I said, he already nullified the atmospheric resistance of earth/atmosphere,drag.

So now he executes his turn and is now going at 1000 mph along with the earth's 1000 mph rotation and what does he see?
Well, he sees that his plane is going at 1000, which you would expect him to see.

What he should see...if your rotating globe is correct, is his plane hovering above the ground, as if he was in a hovering helicopter...which he does not.

Now before you jump in...have a real good think about what I've just said and we will go on from there, where you will call me stupid or something or I don't know how physics works and all that baloney..then you will most likely use a train or some kind of tin can contraption to try and boggle peoples minds into actually believing I am a total nut job that knows nothing.

I'm telling you this, so it saves you typing it all out, because I'm generous and kind hearted, like that.
Over to you.
The problem is that you are switching frames of reference.  The atmosphere is on the earth, in the same frame as the observer and the plane.  In the process of turning, this atmosphere is still acting on the plane. 

Think about yourself on a boat in a river.  The river is moving 3 mph.  You jump out of the boat for a swim.  You are now floating next to the boat at 3 mph.  you swim against the current away from your boat at 3 mph.  If there is observer on the bank of the river, he sees your boat floating at 3mph and you swimming at 0 mph.  You turn around to swim back to your boat you haven't started swimming yet.  The observer on the shore sees you floating at 3 mph and your boat floating at 3 mph.  You then swim back to your boat.  The observer on the shore sees you swimming at 6 mph and the boat floating at 3mph.

This is what happens correct?

If we explain it the way that you are thinking about it, since you swam against the current, you canceled the affect of the current so now when you turn to swim back to your boat, the observer sees you just floating at 3mph. 

The atmosphere, like the water in the previous example, is moving.  When your plane first takes off, it is moving at the same speed and same direction as the atmosphere.  So when it takes off against it, the atmosphere is still acting on the plane much like the water is still acting on you.


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Rabhimself

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Re: If I jump in the air why doesn't the ground move @ 1000MPH?
« Reply #259 on: November 08, 2013, 06:50:46 AM »


Right.  What you are saying is that when I'm walking on the train, my own personal speed is 4/5 mph.  However, surely you must see that in order for me to reach my friend I have to have an overall speed that is greater than that of the train?  You're effectively saying that when you are sitting still on the train you have ZERO speed - when of course you must, because you are travelling somewhere.

No?
When you are sat on the train, you have zero speed. Correct!
If you walk along the train, you are walking at whatever speed you are walking and that's it. The train is irrelevant as you are part of it.

Wow.

If the speed of the train is not relevant then why bother taking the train?  Why bother doing anything other than good old fashioned walking?

It's like you understand that the train travels at say, 65 mph faster than you do on average - yet you insist that if you are sat down on a moving train you have zero speed.  You have to acknowledge that if you are sat down on a moving train, you are travelling just as fast as the train is - or there would be no point in taking it, as it would leave you behind.

Do you honestly not see how ridiculous you are being? 

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sceptimatic

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Re: If I jump in the air why doesn't the ground move @ 1000MPH?
« Reply #260 on: November 08, 2013, 07:04:43 AM »
The problem is that you are switching frames of reference.  The atmosphere is on the earth, in the same frame as the observer and the plane.  In the process of turning, this atmosphere is still acting on the plane. 
I've used all reference points to explain why a rotating earth is nonsense.

Think about yourself on a boat in a river.  The river is moving 3 mph.  You jump out of the boat for a swim.  You are now floating next to the boat at 3 mph.  you swim against the current away from your boat at 3 mph.  If there is observer on the bank of the river, he sees your boat floating at 3mph and you swimming at 0 mph.  You turn around to swim back to your boat you haven't started swimming yet.  The observer on the shore sees you floating at 3 mph and your boat floating at 3 mph.  You then swim back to your boat.  The observer on the shore sees you swimming at 6 mph and the boat floating at 3mph.
Bravo, an excellent explanation. EXCEPT, you are using a human body CARRIED by a strong force of a moving body of water.
If you are trying to apply this to earth's atmospheric grip, then your plane would be torn to shreds by flying against it.
This is what happens correct?
Yes, that's what would happen in water.
If we explain it the way that you are thinking about it, since you swam against the current, you canceled the affect of the current so now when you turn to swim back to your boat, the observer sees you just floating at 3mph. 
As I said before. The water can easily resort to carrying you at it's 3 mph movement.You are trying to tell me that the atmosphere can do this with a plane. Come on man, have a word will you.
The atmosphere, like the water in the previous example, is moving.  When your plane first takes off, it is moving at the same speed and same direction as the atmosphere.  So when it takes off against it, the atmosphere is still acting on the plane much like the water is still acting on you.
I'm not buying that for the very reasons I've put. Anyone who does buy it, I feel sorry for. Basic simple logic should be enough to see the massive flaw in this water argument.

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sceptimatic

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Re: If I jump in the air why doesn't the ground move @ 1000MPH?
« Reply #261 on: November 08, 2013, 07:11:04 AM »
Wow.

If the speed of the train is not relevant then why bother taking the train?  Why bother doing anything other than good old fashioned walking?
I didn't ask you to take the train, it was your idea. You could have walked, so don't be blaming me. ;)
It's like you understand that the train travels at say, 65 mph faster than you do on average - yet you insist that if you are sat down on a moving train you have zero speed.  You have to acknowledge that if you are sat down on a moving train, you are travelling just as fast as the train is - or there would be no point in taking it, as it would leave you behind.
YOU, have zero speed on a train. The train has the speed. To an outside observer, he/she, will see you sat on a train that is going at 65 mph. You, however, are not moving at any speed.
Do you honestly not see how ridiculous you are being?
I'm not being ridiculous, I'm merely answering your questions, honestly.

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DuckDodgers

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Re: If I jump in the air why doesn't the ground move @ 1000MPH?
« Reply #262 on: November 08, 2013, 07:13:27 AM »
Scepti, let's nail down some basics.  Are you allowing the RE explanation that the air rotates with the earth so that both are traveling at 1k mph?  So you agree that if both are traveling at the same speed they do not move relative to each other?   It seems you are getting mixed up and assuming the 1k mph speed of the air does not impart its speed onto the plane.
I'll tell you what! we will go with the very start and the very basics and maybe you will see where I'm coming from.

Let's start with the aircraft on the solid ground and you observe this, whilst I observe it as a stationary person in space, looking down at you, whilst wearing big jam jar glasses. lol

Ok! you see the aircraft as stationary, just as you are stationary, yet I see you and the aircraft rotating at 1000 mph ANTI CLOCKWISE (for instance).

Do we agree on this first part, 100%?
Correct.  You may proceed with the next portion.
If the aircraft simply hovers above the person on the ground, it's basically stationary to the person on the ground.
The earth and person stood on it does not move away from the aircraft, because somehow the atmosphere coupled with the earth's 1000 mph motion drags the aircraft along with it, keeping it still to the person on the ground.
From an observer in so called space, who is stationary, he/she will observe the earth and the aircraft rotating at 1000 mph.

Am I correct in your thinking up to now?
I have to do it this way if we are to achieve clarity.
Correct so far.  There is no noticeable difference between it sitting in the ground and hovering in terms of these observers.
See post 247 and see what you can come up with.
You're falling apart in the turn.  Because the rotation speed was cancelled out previously doesn't mean it no longer acts on the plane.  You're math looks like 1k-1k=0 which is right then when it is turned 1k+1k=1k you subtract velocities when they act against each other and add them when they move with each other.
You mean it miraculously grips the plane again at 1000 mph, just like that?
It never stopped gripping the plane.  The 1k mph rotation speed is always acting on everything on Earth.
markjo, what force can not pass through a solid or liquid?
Magnetism for one and electric is the other.

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markjo

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Re: If I jump in the air why doesn't the ground move @ 1000MPH?
« Reply #263 on: November 08, 2013, 07:17:29 AM »
It's like you understand that the train travels at say, 65 mph faster than you do on average - yet you insist that if you are sat down on a moving train you have zero speed.  You have to acknowledge that if you are sat down on a moving train, you are travelling just as fast as the train is - or there would be no point in taking it, as it would leave you behind.
YOU, have zero speed on a train. The train has the speed. To an outside observer, he/she, will see you sat on a train that is going at 65 mph. You, however, are not moving at any speed.
If you are sitting on a train travelling 65 mph, then, to an outside observer, you and the train are moving at the same 65 mph. 
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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sceptimatic

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Re: If I jump in the air why doesn't the ground move @ 1000MPH?
« Reply #264 on: November 08, 2013, 07:19:09 AM »
Scepti, let's nail down some basics.  Are you allowing the RE explanation that the air rotates with the earth so that both are traveling at 1k mph?  So you agree that if both are traveling at the same speed they do not move relative to each other?   It seems you are getting mixed up and assuming the 1k mph speed of the air does not impart its speed onto the plane.
I'll tell you what! we will go with the very start and the very basics and maybe you will see where I'm coming from.

Let's start with the aircraft on the solid ground and you observe this, whilst I observe it as a stationary person in space, looking down at you, whilst wearing big jam jar glasses. lol

Ok! you see the aircraft as stationary, just as you are stationary, yet I see you and the aircraft rotating at 1000 mph ANTI CLOCKWISE (for instance).

Do we agree on this first part, 100%?
Correct.  You may proceed with the next portion.
If the aircraft simply hovers above the person on the ground, it's basically stationary to the person on the ground.
The earth and person stood on it does not move away from the aircraft, because somehow the atmosphere coupled with the earth's 1000 mph motion drags the aircraft along with it, keeping it still to the person on the ground.
From an observer in so called space, who is stationary, he/she will observe the earth and the aircraft rotating at 1000 mph.

Am I correct in your thinking up to now?
I have to do it this way if we are to achieve clarity.
Correct so far.  There is no noticeable difference between it sitting in the ground and hovering in terms of these observers.
See post 247 and see what you can come up with.
You're falling apart in the turn.  Because the rotation speed was cancelled out previously doesn't mean it no longer acts on the plane.  You're math looks like 1k-1k=0 which is right then when it is turned 1k+1k=1k you subtract velocities when they act against each other and add them when they move with each other.
You mean it miraculously grips the plane again at 1000 mph, just like that?
It never stopped gripping the plane.  The 1k mph rotation speed is always acting on everything on Earth.
Everything ON EARTH!
I'm not talking about ON EARTH.

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sceptimatic

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Re: If I jump in the air why doesn't the ground move @ 1000MPH?
« Reply #265 on: November 08, 2013, 07:20:20 AM »
It's like you understand that the train travels at say, 65 mph faster than you do on average - yet you insist that if you are sat down on a moving train you have zero speed.  You have to acknowledge that if you are sat down on a moving train, you are travelling just as fast as the train is - or there would be no point in taking it, as it would leave you behind.
YOU, have zero speed on a train. The train has the speed. To an outside observer, he/she, will see you sat on a train that is going at 65 mph. You, however, are not moving at any speed.
If you are sitting on a train travelling 65 mph, then, to an outside observer, you and the train are moving at the same 65 mph.
Nope!
To an outside observer, the train is moving at 65 mph with you moving at zero mph whilst seated on it.

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DuckDodgers

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Re: If I jump in the air why doesn't the ground move @ 1000MPH?
« Reply #266 on: November 08, 2013, 07:22:42 AM »
Scepti, let's nail down some basics.  Are you allowing the RE explanation that the air rotates with the earth so that both are traveling at 1k mph?  So you agree that if both are traveling at the same speed they do not move relative to each other?   It seems you are getting mixed up and assuming the 1k mph speed of the air does not impart its speed onto the plane.
I'll tell you what! we will go with the very start and the very basics and maybe you will see where I'm coming from.

Let's start with the aircraft on the solid ground and you observe this, whilst I observe it as a stationary person in space, looking down at you, whilst wearing big jam jar glasses. lol

Ok! you see the aircraft as stationary, just as you are stationary, yet I see you and the aircraft rotating at 1000 mph ANTI CLOCKWISE (for instance).

Do we agree on this first part, 100%?
Correct.  You may proceed with the next portion.
If the aircraft simply hovers above the person on the ground, it's basically stationary to the person on the ground.
The earth and person stood on it does not move away from the aircraft, because somehow the atmosphere coupled with the earth's 1000 mph motion drags the aircraft along with it, keeping it still to the person on the ground.
From an observer in so called space, who is stationary, he/she will observe the earth and the aircraft rotating at 1000 mph.

Am I correct in your thinking up to now?
I have to do it this way if we are to achieve clarity.
Correct so far.  There is no noticeable difference between it sitting in the ground and hovering in terms of these observers.
See post 247 and see what you can come up with.
You're falling apart in the turn.  Because the rotation speed was cancelled out previously doesn't mean it no longer acts on the plane.  You're math looks like 1k-1k=0 which is right then when it is turned 1k+1k=1k you subtract velocities when they act against each other and add them when they move with each other.
You mean it miraculously grips the plane again at 1000 mph, just like that?
It never stopped gripping the plane.  The 1k mph rotation speed is always acting on everything on Earth.
Everything ON EARTH!
I'm not talking about ON EARTH.
If it's in the atmosphere, It's on Earth.
markjo, what force can not pass through a solid or liquid?
Magnetism for one and electric is the other.

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hewholikespie

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Re: If I jump in the air why doesn't the ground move @ 1000MPH?
« Reply #267 on: November 08, 2013, 07:25:14 AM »
Let's imagine a ridiculously huge, say Mile wide and 100 Mile long treadmill. The track runs east to west.

Let's put a car with driver on the treadmill. It faces west

The Treadmill revs up to a 40 MPH Speed east. The driver begins driving 40 MPH west
This is the equivalent of the Plane flying 1000MPH against the rotation, to the outside observer, it goes nowhere.

The Car turns around, and begins heading East, without breaking speed. To the outside observer, the car will start moving up to 40MPH, this is the point when it is perpendicular to the movement of the treadmill, and then up to 80 MPH as it moves 40MPH east along the treadmill, which propels it 40MPH faster.
This is the equivalent of the plane turning around and flying 1000 MPH with the rotation, as it is now being pushed along by the same forces it had been resisting.

The kicker of all this, that car, just like that plane, will perceive themselves as moving the same speed the entire time.

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sceptimatic

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Re: If I jump in the air why doesn't the ground move @ 1000MPH?
« Reply #268 on: November 08, 2013, 07:26:28 AM »
Scepti, let's nail down some basics.  Are you allowing the RE explanation that the air rotates with the earth so that both are traveling at 1k mph?  So you agree that if both are traveling at the same speed they do not move relative to each other?   It seems you are getting mixed up and assuming the 1k mph speed of the air does not impart its speed onto the plane.
I'll tell you what! we will go with the very start and the very basics and maybe you will see where I'm coming from.

Let's start with the aircraft on the solid ground and you observe this, whilst I observe it as a stationary person in space, looking down at you, whilst wearing big jam jar glasses. lol

Ok! you see the aircraft as stationary, just as you are stationary, yet I see you and the aircraft rotating at 1000 mph ANTI CLOCKWISE (for instance).

Do we agree on this first part, 100%?
Correct.  You may proceed with the next portion.
If the aircraft simply hovers above the person on the ground, it's basically stationary to the person on the ground.
The earth and person stood on it does not move away from the aircraft, because somehow the atmosphere coupled with the earth's 1000 mph motion drags the aircraft along with it, keeping it still to the person on the ground.
From an observer in so called space, who is stationary, he/she will observe the earth and the aircraft rotating at 1000 mph.

Am I correct in your thinking up to now?
I have to do it this way if we are to achieve clarity.
Correct so far.  There is no noticeable difference between it sitting in the ground and hovering in terms of these observers.
See post 247 and see what you can come up with.
You're falling apart in the turn.  Because the rotation speed was cancelled out previously doesn't mean it no longer acts on the plane.  You're math looks like 1k-1k=0 which is right then when it is turned 1k+1k=1k you subtract velocities when they act against each other and add them when they move with each other.
You mean it miraculously grips the plane again at 1000 mph, just like that?
It never stopped gripping the plane.  The 1k mph rotation speed is always acting on everything on Earth.
Everything ON EARTH!
I'm not talking about ON EARTH.
If it's in the atmosphere, It's on Earth.
You explain to me how an atmosphere can make you rotate with the earth even when you fly against it at 1000 mph.
You explain to me how the atmosphere is still carrying you in the opposite direction to your powered flight?

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hewholikespie

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Re: If I jump in the air why doesn't the ground move @ 1000MPH?
« Reply #269 on: November 08, 2013, 07:26:49 AM »
It's like you understand that the train travels at say, 65 mph faster than you do on average - yet you insist that if you are sat down on a moving train you have zero speed.  You have to acknowledge that if you are sat down on a moving train, you are travelling just as fast as the train is - or there would be no point in taking it, as it would leave you behind.
YOU, have zero speed on a train. The train has the speed. To an outside observer, he/she, will see you sat on a train that is going at 65 mph. You, however, are not moving at any speed.
If you are sitting on a train travelling 65 mph, then, to an outside observer, you and the train are moving at the same 65 mph.
Nope!
To an outside observer, the train is moving at 65 mph with you moving at zero mph whilst seated on it.

The next time you get pulled over for speeding, try and argue that you were moving 0 MPH while your car was going 80.