Flight Times

I have to side with Alex and Scintific on this one,

All projections of the earth are based on a Spheroid/ Ellipsoid, a set of perimeters which define not just that the earth is roughly spherical but exactly how spherical it is. Every co-ordinate system is also tied to the most appropriate for the location. They are averages based on the position of an ellipsoid of given dimentions within the earth's rough bumpy surface. See page 4 of the link below.

Every map / representation you put on here is based on one. The map you love so much is based on the Azimuthal equidistant projection.

Here's a handy list of the popular ones.

http://www.skidmore.edu/gis/Understanding_Map_Projections.pdf

On the subject of the Azimuthal equidistant is notes: "Except at the center, all shapes are distorted. Distortion increases from the center." - Not the best way to present a flat earth if you ask me.

By failing to provide an accurate map you've conceded that you don't actually know for sure what the earth looks like from above.

It could be this:



Or this:



Or this:



This one's on your own website!

Yes, the layout configuration has many different possibilities, which is why there is no accepted map.

Yes, the layout configuration has many different possibilities, which is why there is no accepted map.

No, if you actually took the time to, you know, map out the Earth, you'd find there is exactly one layout configuration. I don't care whether its flat or round or tetrahedron-shaped, there is exactly ONE correct configuration.

Yes, the layout configuration has many different possibilities, which is why there is no accepted map.

Is this because you are unable to make one fit your theory??

This, combined with the outright refutation of photographic evidence (for and against) does not lend any credibility to this theory or yourselves. I cannot see how you even consider arguing for a flat earth if you cannot agree on the basic shape yourselves.

What gives you any confidence that its even a disc?

Yes, the layout configuration has many different possibilities, which is why there is no accepted map.

That is a serious problem. The fact that you can't make a map to fit simple zetetic observations doesn't bode well. It implies that some observations are in error. You guys should really get it together.

I don't understand why you guys don't just make an accurate FE map.

Yes, this would be another logical step towards giving FET relevance.  People have been mapping the world for centuries. I think. Im not sure what FE doctrine is on that, if it was covered up or just never happened.  Perhaps funding a long term mission to do this the old fashioned way.  Or Im sure the FES can think of something, they offer so many examples from their keyboards and windows.

An accurate map, one way or the other would be great and would solve all the problems.
Just one problem though. There is no accurate map of either a round or flat earth and for good reason.
Nobody but nobody knows what the earth is like, in it's entirety and cannot go to the extreme parts of it to do any real mapping of a full earth.

An accurate map, one way or the other would be great and would solve all the problems.
Just one problem though. There is no accurate map of either a round or flat earth and for good reason.
Nobody but nobody knows what the earth is like, in it's entirety and cannot go to the extreme parts of it to do any real mapping of a full earth.

Thats only what you think, and as we have seen time and again, what you think has little to do with reality.

An accurate map, one way or the other would be great and would solve all the problems.
Just one problem though. There is no accurate map of either a round or flat earth and for good reason.
Nobody but nobody knows what the earth is like, in it's entirety and cannot go to the extreme parts of it to do any real mapping of a full earth.

Actually this is incorrect.

SONAR and LiDAR remote sensing techniques allow us to image the earth and the ocean floor to very high levels of accuracy. I myself have manipulated sea bed data, at a resolution of 50cm x 50m, which was collected by small commercially available survey vessel. 

Space bourne LiDAR can now image the entire earth very easily. It all depends on budget really. There are many sources of topographic data for the whole world available on the web. Generally if you want something for free you'll get fairly low res data.

http://serc.carleton.edu/NAGTWorkshops/gis/topographic_data.html

Open source GIS software can allow you to view it. Try QGIS.

http://www.qgis.org/

This is a classic FE phobia, just because you can't physically go somewhere it doesn't mean you can't look at it.

Quote from: danger2007 on August 13, 2013, 08:42:34 AM

Ah cool, I'll bear that in mind.

Still no answer from the FE side of things...

Welcome to the Flat Earth Society! Ignoring difficult questions since 2004.

Under a stream of flaws with both flat earth models, the society has, at various times, agreed that they have no idea what the Earth actually looks like except that it doesn't look like a globe. If a flat-earth advocate does 'answer', It'll probably be "Well, we don't know what the shortest route actually is, so we really can't judge on the matter."

Wow, that was a really humble FEer....

Ship companies and airlines don't seem to have any problem with "We know what the shortest route actually is". Too bad FE has a problem with that.

Quote from: Alex Tomasovich on August 13, 2013, 09:00:15 AM

Quote from: danger2007 on August 13, 2013, 08:42:34 AM

Ah cool, I'll bear that in mind.

Still no answer from the FE side of things...

Welcome to the Flat Earth Society! Ignoring difficult questions since 2004.

Under a stream of flaws with both flat earth models, the society has, at various times, agreed that they have no idea what the Earth actually looks like except that it doesn't look like a globe. If a flat-earth advocate does 'answer', It'll probably be "Well, we don't know what the shortest route actually is, so we really can't judge on the matter."

Wow, that was a really humble FEer....

Ship companies and airlines don't seem to have any problem with "We know what the shortest route actually is". Too bad FE has a problem with that.

They are simply mistaken. 

Quote from: Googleotomy on August 15, 2013, 10:40:40 AM

Quote from: Alex Tomasovich on August 13, 2013, 09:00:15 AM

Quote from: danger2007 on August 13, 2013, 08:42:34 AM

Ah cool, I'll bear that in mind.

Still no answer from the FE side of things...

Welcome to the Flat Earth Society! Ignoring difficult questions since 2004.

Under a stream of flaws with both flat earth models, the society has, at various times, agreed that they have no idea what the Earth actually looks like except that it doesn't look like a globe. If a flat-earth advocate does 'answer', It'll probably be "Well, we don't know what the shortest route actually is, so we really can't judge on the matter."

Wow, that was a really humble FEer....

Ship companies and airlines don't seem to have any problem with "We know what the shortest route actually is". Too bad FE has a problem with that.

They are simply mistaken.

If they are mistaken, please show some examples of what the shortest route actually is.....That is, if you think you know more than the ship companies and airlines know . I am sure they would like to know so they can save on fuel .If you don't know what the shortest distance is how can you judge on the matter ?

There is no Flat Earth map.

 

Quote from: Googleotomy on August 15, 2013, 10:40:40 AM

Quote from: Alex Tomasovich on August 13, 2013, 09:00:15 AM

Quote from: danger2007 on August 13, 2013, 08:42:34 AM

Ah cool, I'll bear that in mind.

Still no answer from the FE side of things...

Welcome to the Flat Earth Society! Ignoring difficult questions since 2004.

Under a stream of flaws with both flat earth models, the society has, at various times, agreed that they have no idea what the Earth actually looks like except that it doesn't look like a globe. If a flat-earth advocate does 'answer', It'll probably be "Well, we don't know what the shortest route actually is, so we really can't judge on the matter."

Wow, that was a really humble FEer....

Ship companies and airlines don't seem to have any problem with "We know what the shortest route actually is". Too bad FE has a problem with that.

They are simply mistaken.

Typical answer.

And your proof for this is?? Many show me one airline company that wastes fuel necessarily.

Give me some actual facts with evidence that I can find myself.

Just bumping this thread as Ævan has recently mentioned he has a commercial pilot's licence.

Ævan can you address the points at the start of this thread please??

I don't understand why you guys don't just make an accurate FE map.

Quite the paradoxical statement you've made there REphoenix.  You know fine well why they can't make an 'accurate' map.

Even if they conjured up a map to account for the flight time between Buenos Aires and Sydney, there would then be discrepancies elsewhere.  Why?

We both know why.

Just enjoy the fact they can't answer.

Quote from: REphoenix on August 15, 2013, 05:16:13 AM

I don't understand why you guys don't just make an accurate FE map.

Quite the paradoxical statement you've made there REphoenix.  You know fine well why they can't make an 'accurate' map.

Even if they conjured up a map to account for the flight time between Buenos Aires and Sydney, there would then be discrepancies elsewhere.  Why?

We both know why.

Just enjoy the fact they can't answer.

I meant assuming the earth was flat.

Quote from: Rabhimself on September 02, 2013, 08:20:44 AM

Quote from: REphoenix on August 15, 2013, 05:16:13 AM

I don't understand why you guys don't just make an accurate FE map.

Quite the paradoxical statement you've made there REphoenix.  You know fine well why they can't make an 'accurate' map.

Even if they conjured up a map to account for the flight time between Buenos Aires and Sydney, there would then be discrepancies elsewhere.  Why?

We both know why.

Just enjoy the fact they can't answer.

I meant assuming the earth was flat.

It's an impossible exercise, even assuming the earth is flat because there is no arrangement of continents on a disc that will account simultaneously for all observed travel times and distances - that's what I was meaning. 

Of course, the reason is the earth is spherical - but regardless of the reason, there is still no way an 'accurate' flat earth map can be produced that will account for the aforementioned travel times and distances.

Again, regardless of what the real shape of the earth is, this is why they have no map.

Any problem of travel times in the bi-polar model can be solved by making the continents closer and the map smaller than it is. If you wish to make a map to account for all of the travel times, be my guest.

The main problem with doing this is that there are no published logs from ships or flights on the internet from which to compile data, which is why it has not been done. Over the last 6 years I have asked repeatedly, on many occasions, for RE'ers to post flight or shipping logs showing that the estimated distance traveled meets the actual distance traveled.

Since, from previous discussions, we know that ships and airplanes do not travel in straight lines to reach their destinations (due to weather, safety, proximity to rescue and refueling stations, legal reasons, etc), it stands to reason that discrepancies in fuel or distance would be ignored in most cases.

The website flightaware.com publishes flight paths of specific flights. I linked you to one a few months ago. You never replied:

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php/topic,57982.msg1473266.html#msg1473266

This website links vessel track and data and you can obtain data from them, probably for a fee.

http://www.marinetraffic.com/ais/

As for planes I put a link for it on the very first post in the thread.

Don't claim there's no data, you've clearly made no effort to look.

Any problem of travel times in the bi-polar model can be solved by making the continents closer and the map smaller than it is. If you wish to make a map to account for all of the travel times, be my guest.

The main problem with doing this is that there are no published logs from ships or flights on the internet from which to compile data, which is why it has not been done. Over the last 6 years I have asked repeatedly, on many occasions, for RE'ers to post flight or shipping logs showing that the estimated distance traveled meets the actual distance traveled.

Since, from previous discussions, we know that ships and airplanes do not travel in straight lines to reach their destinations (due to weather, safety, proximity to rescue and refueling stations, legal reasons, etc), it stands to reason that discrepancies in fuel or distance would be ignored in most cases.

I love that your solution to an inaccurate map is to make Ad Hoc changes. 

Any problem of travel times in the bi-polar model can be solved by making the continents closer and the map smaller than it is. If you wish to make a map to account for all of the travel times, be my guest.

The main problem with doing this is that there are no published logs from ships or flights on the internet from which to compile data, which is why it has not been done. Over the last 6 years I have asked repeatedly, on many occasions, for RE'ers to post flight or shipping logs showing that the estimated distance traveled meets the actual distance traveled.

Since, from previous discussions, we know that ships and airplanes do not travel in straight lines to reach their destinations (due to weather, safety, proximity to rescue and refueling stations, legal reasons, etc), it stands to reason that discrepancies in fuel or distance would be ignored in most cases.

Links have been provided for the data you seek. 

What does it matter though with regards to the data?  -  Obviously part of the conspiracy too, right?

I wasn't even talking on a data level as to why you guys have no agreed map, even on an intuitive, qualitative level it quickly becomes apparent there is no way to arrange the continents on a disc without having major issues.

I don't know the exact flight time for Rio de Janeiro to Sydney, but I know it's shorter than flying from London to Sydney, while simultaneously longer than flying from Santiago to Sydney.

Meh, I see no point in having this discussion.  It's not up to us, the round earth proponents, to produce a flat earth map.  It's up to you guys.

I know, intuitively, that you can't do it.  I think this will ultimately boil down to 'it's the conspiracy', because no matter what you do there will be distances and travel times from a flat map that will not match up with the observed ones - whether they be shorter or longer.

Of course in reality the two FE Maps usually shown are just .:

1. The North Polar Projection (with the Ice Ring - supposedly Antarctica - drawn around the rim) .

2.The Bi-Polar Projection (with Antarctica shown as a continent but without the Ice Ring)

They are really just different projections made from a globe and nothing original.

Quote from Rabhimself:
"Meh, I see no point in having this discussion.  It's not up to us, the round earth proponents, to produce a flat earth map.  It's up to you guys."

IMHO It's just a part of this Flat Earth  Nonsense.  Tom Bishop has already said "There is no Flat Earth Map." I think he later clarified that with  "There is no official Flat Earth Map."

There are official maps of flight paths and they are made from projections of a globe.
They are produced by the Federal Aviation Administration and called "Sectional Charts" and show direct flight paths between points.
http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/productcatalog/vfrcharts/sectional/

I like to get on several other forum websites. On most of these the editors and moderators answer the questions and supply the data for answers. It seems as if the Flat Earthers on this forum are doing just the opposite. They don't seem to answer or ignore questions (at least intelligently IMHO) and the Round Earthers seem to do all the answering to questions. Especially in regard to the Flat Earth Maps......Wait a minute ! According to Tom Bishop "There is no Flat Earth Map."  !

Here is another one of my great big "IMHO's".: 
If the Flat Earth Society was really  organized and ambitious and serious enough I think they would be producing "Official Flat Earth Maps." Granted the Flat Earth Society isn't exactly the National Geographic Society, but they could learn a lot about producing maps from the National Geographic Society.
http://maps.nationalgeographic.com/maps

But then again the NGS is a member of the Conspiracy, too.  All of their "Flat Maps" are made from various projections of a globe.

Forgive me if this question i am about to ask has been addressed already. Its for the person who started this thread, and i dont mean to answer a question with a question. Why dont commercial airlines take advantage of flying directly over the north pole? It would save some time in certain instances flying over it.

Forgive me for asking questions about flight patterns and not addressing the FE map issue, but im new to this forum and I am currently gathering data to draw my own conclusions and there are a few questions that you might be able to answer for me since you are a pilot. (I hope I read correctly as to your occupation).  Question: Why does it take the same amount of time to fly from LAX (Los Angles Airport) to lets say NYC (New York City Airport) and NYC to LAX?
Basically im asking why it takes same amount of time to go East to West as it does West to East? What makes me ask the question is that if the earth is spinning in one direction at 1000mph (I believe thats the accepted speed of its rotation) how can it be that the Airplane going against the direction of the spinning earth takes just as long as the Airplane going with? And wouldnt the Airplane going the same direction as the earth is spinning have to travel faster than a 1000mph to gain any ground? I ask this because you ask why dont the FE have a accurate map. Well it appears that there are discrepancies with the basic fundamentals of how our world is portrayed. So maybe it might be difficult to produce a map if we are not given the true nature of our world. And im sure this has been mentioned many times, but the UN has a FE map on the flag. I believe that if the New World Order takes place then that flag will be the entire nations flag. And i dont believe that the UN accidentally choose that depiction of a FE.     

Why dont commercial airlines take advantage of flying directly over the north pole?

They do, just google north pole flight paths.

...how can it be that the Airplane going against the direction of the spinning earth takes just as long as the Airplane going with?     

Firstly, only the equator is moving at ~1000mph; there is a distinction to be made between angular velocity and linear velocity, but for brevity, I won't go into that here. To address your main point, the flights take about the same time because their speed is relative to the air they fly in, which is not moving all that much in relation to the ground. An understanding of aerodynamics, specifically the effect of headwinds and tailwinds on flight times, might be handy in relation to this subject.

when i google north pole flight paths, it appears that there is land at the north pole from a couple of the videos. I was always under the impression that it was water that where the north pole is.

Im still puzzled about 2 things. 1st why doesnt the earth keep spinning faster and faster if there is nothing in space to slow it down or keep it at a constant speed? I was taught that there is no friction in space and that a slight propulsion could send you flying at high speeds.
2nd I made a model to understand the earths rotation and I dont follow how the planes can arrive at the same time with the earth spinning in 1 direction at any speed. I used a basketball and tied a string to what would be the north pole. Then i drew to dots on opposites sides of the basketball (in the middle )where the equator would be . Then i spun the basketball and with 2 little toy airplanes I held a couple of inches above the bball and moved them along the center or equator. the airplane going against the rotation of the ball covered more territory than the Airplane that is going in the same direction as the bball. Not only that it would stand to reason that the airplane going the same direction as the bball would have to travel the speed of the bball and then faster to gain any ground. So I dont understand how velocity and what ever else you mentioned can make the planes cover the same amount of space in the same amount of time while something below them is traveling faster than the speed of sound? I cant wrap my mind around how any phenomenon can circumvent my bball experiment.