What causes the circle of darkness?

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zarg

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What causes the circle of darkness?
« on: January 11, 2012, 07:16:24 AM »
Alright, so I've looked through every thread about high-altitude photography I could find, and the FE explanation for the obvious curvature is always the same: it's the spot of light from the sun. As you can see from the Project Soar website, that supposed circle of light gradually turns into a circle of darkness daily. As the sun leaves, the curvature remains. This has never been explained from the FE perspective. Anyone?

Oh, and for those eccentric few (even by FE'er standards) who would attempt to dodge the issue by claiming airplane windows and cameras distort the pictures, I should warn you that that won't work here. There are no windows, and the still camera they use is a regular consumer Canon. Be sure to look over these specs and explain how they can support your argument, otherwise please don't bother.
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Rushy

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Re: What causes the circle of darkness?
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2012, 07:40:21 AM »
Low light levels combined with the refraction of light through the atmosphere would cause a roughly elliptical view of earth from the observer.

Re: What causes the circle of darkness?
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2012, 07:43:34 AM »
Low light levels combined with the refraction of light through the atmosphere would cause a roughly elliptical view of earth from the observer.
False. The spotlight isn't circular for most of the year. Just saying a random phrase doesn't make it true. Would you like to try again?
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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Rushy

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Re: What causes the circle of darkness?
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2012, 07:52:59 AM »
False. The spotlight isn't circular for most of the year. Just saying a random phrase doesn't make it true. Would you like to try again?
roughly elliptical

I suggest you improve your reading comprehension. Since I neither said it was circular nor did I mention a spot of light.

Re: What causes the circle of darkness?
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2012, 07:58:36 AM »
False. The spotlight isn't circular for most of the year. Just saying a random phrase doesn't make it true. Would you like to try again?
roughly elliptical

I suggest you improve your reading comprehension. Since I neither said it was circular and we were not discussing the sun's spot of light.
You're right. Circular is less accurate than roughly elliptical. Please forgive my inaccurate paraphrasing.

Since you seem to have left the discussion about the Sun's spotlight, perhaps you'd take a moment to tell us what you're talking about.

Alright, so I've looked through every thread about high-altitude photography I could find, and the FE explanation for the obvious curvature is always the same: it's the spot of light from the sun. As you can see from the Project Soar website, that supposed circle of light gradually turns into a circle of darkness daily. As the sun leaves, the curvature remains. This has never been explained from the FE perspective. Anyone?

Oh, and for those eccentric few (even by FE'er standards) who would attempt to dodge the issue by claiming airplane windows and cameras distort the pictures, I should warn you that that won't work here. There are no windows, and the still camera they use is a regular consumer Canon. Be sure to look over these specs and explain how they can support your argument, otherwise please don't bother.
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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Rushy

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Re: What causes the circle of darkness?
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2012, 08:02:46 AM »
Since you seem to have left the discussion about the Sun's spotlight, perhaps you'd take a moment to tell us what you're talking about.

You should read the OP again. Zarg mentions the Sun's spot of light but we are not discussing it directly. Zarg is instead discussing the circle of darkness left over after the sun has "set" below the horizon. Which leads to the title of the thread, "What causes the circle of darkness?" which I responded to accordingly. Again, your reading comprehension comes in to question. I'm starting to doubt you read the OP at all, actually.

Re: What causes the circle of darkness?
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2012, 08:09:02 AM »
Since you seem to have left the discussion about the Sun's spotlight, perhaps you'd take a moment to tell us what you're talking about.

You should read the OP again. Zarg mentions the Sun's spot of light but we are not discussing it directly. Zarg is instead discussing the circle of darkness left over after the sun has "set" below the horizon. Which leads to the title of the thread, "What causes the circle of darkness?" which I responded to accordingly. Again, your reading comprehension comes in to question. I'm starting to doubt you read the OP at all, actually.
I see the problem here. You're assuming that your explanation is supported even when the Sun is not a roughly elliptical spot light. Would you care to explain yourself in some detail please? How does low lighting affect shape? How does refraction cause distortion in the direction your explanation requires? A ray-trace diagram would be very helpful. Thanks.
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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Rushy

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Re: What causes the circle of darkness?
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2012, 09:11:13 AM »
How does low lighting affect shape?

The low lighting makes it harder to discern a true "end point" of the horizon. In darkness, our eyes tend to see what we want them to see more than is actually there, even if its a dark video. Not to mention the resolution is usually terrible, even for photos of a well-lit section of the disc.

How does refraction cause distortion in the direction your explanation requires?


Refraction causes light to go in a different direction and since you can not see light not going towards you, it would appear black. This causes the gradual fade starting from the observer point. However, it only becomes prominent at a great distance from the observer.

Re: What causes the circle of darkness?
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2012, 09:20:12 AM »
How does low lighting affect shape?

The low lighting makes it harder to discern a true "end point" of the horizon. In darkness, our eyes tend to see what we want them to see more than is actually there, even if its a dark video. Not to mention the resolution is usually terrible, even for photos of a well-lit section of the disc.

How does refraction cause distortion in the direction your explanation requires?


Refraction causes light to go in a different direction and since you can not see light not going towards you, it would appear black. This causes the gradual fade starting from the observer point. However, it only becomes prominent at a great distance from the observer.
Both of those arguments fail.

1) You argue for bias of the observer, without any evidence thereof. Surely not all observers would have such a bias. That fallacy would be the faultly generalization fallacy. Furthermore, photographic evidence would not be subject to the same unconfirmed bias.

2) That's a non sequitur. You cannot argue that no light reaches the observer because some light does not. Surely there could be other sources of light that would reach the observer even through this magic refraction.
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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Rushy

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Re: What causes the circle of darkness?
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2012, 09:29:40 AM »
1) You argue for bias of the observer, without any evidence thereof. Surely not all observers would have such a bias. That fallacy would be the faultly generalization fallacy. Furthermore, photographic evidence would not be subject to the same unconfirmed bias.

All observers have bias. To assert that they don't is naive. Whether that is FET or RET bias depends on the observer.

2) That's a non sequitur. You cannot argue that no light reaches the observer because some light does not.

That was not my argument at all. That is the third time in one thread your reading comprehension has been lacking.

Re: What causes the circle of darkness?
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2012, 09:43:10 AM »
1) You argue for bias of the observer, without any evidence thereof. Surely not all observers would have such a bias. That fallacy would be the faultly generalization fallacy. Furthermore, photographic evidence would not be subject to the same unconfirmed bias.

All observers have bias. To assert that they don't is naive. Whether that is FET or RET bias depends on the observer.

2) That's a non sequitur. You cannot argue that no light reaches the observer because some light does not.

That was not my argument at all. That is the third time in one thread your reading comprehension has been lacking.
1) Again you make a faulty generalization. You really need some training in logic.
2) Did I say that was your argument? I was using a boundary condition to prove you wrong. Do pay attention.
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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Rushy

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Re: What causes the circle of darkness?
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2012, 09:47:17 AM »
2) Did I say that was your argument? I was using a boundary condition to prove you wrong. Do pay attention.

I see, redirective backpedaling. I noticed you attempted to derail the thread at first and when that didn't happen you started posting with an unfortunate arguing style. You knew you would lose this before it even began.

Re: What causes the circle of darkness?
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2012, 10:03:07 AM »
2) Did I say that was your argument? I was using a boundary condition to prove you wrong. Do pay attention.

I see, redirective backpedaling. I noticed you attempted to derail the thread at first and when that didn't happen you started posting with an unfortunate arguing style. You knew you would lose this before it even began.
Not at all. But do keep trying, as it's fun to watch you struggle.
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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Rushy

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Re: What causes the circle of darkness?
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2012, 10:04:49 AM »
But do keep trying, as it's fun to watch you struggle.

Re: What causes the circle of darkness?
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2012, 10:09:32 AM »
But do keep trying, as it's fun to watch you struggle.
So you still can't make a argument without a fallacy. Noted. I guess zarg is right. Thanks for playing. Do come again.
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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zarg

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Re: What causes the circle of darkness?
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2012, 11:25:07 AM »
The low lighting makes it harder to discern a true "end point" of the horizon. In darkness, our eyes tend to see what we want them to see more than is actually there, even if its a dark video.

Mmkay, so to clarify: the night curvature and day curvature are caused by two unrelated phenomena? What about the intermediate period, and why do both phenomena result in the exact same amount of apparent curvature? Doesn't the degree of curvature depend on the nearness of the sun, which changes with the seasons? Why does this "low light observer bias" correspond with any property of the sun when the observer can't see the sun at all?


Not to mention the resolution is usually terrible, even for photos of a well-lit section of the disc.

Can we please avoid irrelevant discussions of what you claim to "usually" be the case, and stick to the current topic? From my link:

Quote
Summary

On August 7th 2010, a team gathered in the predawn hours to launch a capsule called PURSUIT to the edge of space via high altitude balloon on a mission called Sunrise Soar II. PURSUIT flew to an estimated altitude of 80,000 feet and flew 30 miles downrange from the launch site in San Marcos, Texas before landing near Spring Branch, Texas. To our knowledge, Sunrise Soar II captured the highest resolution images of sunrise ever taken from the edge of space by a high altitude balloon flight. This is the detailed story of how it was done.


Refraction causes light to go in a different direction and since you can not see light not going towards you, it would appear black. This causes the gradual fade starting from the observer point. However, it only becomes prominent at a great distance from the observer.

You know, I'd really appreciate it if you'd stop making shit up.
Quote from: Cat Earth Theory
[Lord Wilmore's writings] are written the way a high schooler thinks an educated person should sound like.  The pathetic pseudo-academic writing can't hide the lack of any real substance.

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Rushy

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Re: What causes the circle of darkness?
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2012, 11:38:12 AM »
Mmkay, so to clarify: the night curvature and day curvature are caused by two unrelated phenomena?

It is not curvature. But that is the gist of it.

What about the intermediate period, and why do both phenomena result in the exact same amount of apparent curvature?

They do not result in the exact same amount.

Doesn't the degree of curvature depend on the nearness of the sun, which changes with the seasons?

From a very great distance, yes.

Why does this "low light observer bias" correspond with any property of the sun when the observer can't see the sun at all?

It has nothing to do with the sun. We are talking about the circle of darkness, correct?

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zarg

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Re: What causes the circle of darkness?
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2012, 12:04:27 PM »
It is not curvature.

Define curvature.


They do not result in the exact same amount.

They do. Look at the photos. Stop making shit up.


It has nothing to do with the sun. We are talking about the circle of darkness, correct?

But the circle of darkness has the same curvature as the circle of light. I'm asking why that is, if the sun is not involved. You have 3 options right now:

  • explain why the correlation exists
  • demonstrate that the correlation doesn't exist
  • admit that the daytime curvature also has nothing to do with the sun

Choose one.
Quote from: Cat Earth Theory
[Lord Wilmore's writings] are written the way a high schooler thinks an educated person should sound like.  The pathetic pseudo-academic writing can't hide the lack of any real substance.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: What causes the circle of darkness?
« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2012, 09:06:33 AM »
The links in the op don't demonstrate anything about a "circle of darkness."

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zarg

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Re: What causes the circle of darkness?
« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2012, 09:24:08 AM »
The links in the op don't demonstrate anything about a "circle of darkness."

Fix your browser and try again.

Quote from: Cat Earth Theory
[Lord Wilmore's writings] are written the way a high schooler thinks an educated person should sound like.  The pathetic pseudo-academic writing can't hide the lack of any real substance.

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PizzaPlanet

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Re: What causes the circle of darkness?
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2012, 11:02:40 PM »
False. The spotlight isn't circular for most of the year. Just saying a random phrase doesn't make it true. Would you like to try again?
Let's hold you to your own standards there. Here's you answering your own post... with the same post!

False. The spotlight isn't circular for most of the year.
Just saying a random phrase doesn't make it true. Would you like to try again?
« Last Edit: January 21, 2012, 11:05:47 PM by PizzaPlanet »
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zarg

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Re: What causes the circle of darkness?
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2012, 11:49:30 PM »
Here's you answering your own post... with the same post!

Incorrect.
Quote from: Cat Earth Theory
[Lord Wilmore's writings] are written the way a high schooler thinks an educated person should sound like.  The pathetic pseudo-academic writing can't hide the lack of any real substance.

Re: What causes the circle of darkness?
« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2012, 12:59:11 AM »
False. The spotlight isn't circular for most of the year. Just saying a random phrase doesn't make it true. Would you like to try again?
Let's hold you to your own standards there. Here's you answering your own post... with the same post!

False. The spotlight isn't circular for most of the year.
Just saying a random phrase doesn't make it true. Would you like to try again?
I infer that you mistakenly believe that I said that the spotlight isn't circular for most of the year without any previous posts to support that. If you can't find the posts where we established that (once we destroyed your contention that there are two Australias), I'd be happy to provide you with remedial training on the search function so that you can find posts like those below on your own:
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=52543.msg1291287;topicseen#msg1291287
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=40062.msg1003680;topicseen#msg1003680
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=40159.msg1003783;topicseen#msg1003783
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=41987.msg1043708;topicseen#msg1043708
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=42028.msg1045835;topicseen#msg1045835
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=42028.msg1045978;topicseen#msg1045978
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=43858.msg1090030;topicseen#msg1090030
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=52457.msg1286365;topicseen#msg1286365

and many more. Oh, and these are just my own posts. trig and others argued this concept many more times and probably even better.
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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PizzaPlanet

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Re: What causes the circle of darkness?
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2012, 01:14:33 AM »
(once we destroyed your contention that there are two Australias)
Would you like me to explain the purpose of the Lounge for you again? It seems to confuse you a lot. Just to remind you: The Lounge is where you claimed I know the size of your penis, among many other interesting things. You silly telemarketer, you!

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=52543.msg1291287;topicseen#msg1291287
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=40062.msg1003680;topicseen#msg1003680
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=40159.msg1003783;topicseen#msg1003783
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=41987.msg1043708;topicseen#msg1043708
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=42028.msg1045835;topicseen#msg1045835
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=42028.msg1045978;topicseen#msg1045978
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=43858.msg1090030;topicseen#msg1090030
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=52457.msg1286365;topicseen#msg1286365
Oh, look, many more random phrases.

Feel free to read this post one time for each sentence in your linked posts. Return once you're done.

Just saying a random phrase doesn't make it true. Would you like to try again?

A large mistake in your posts is that you seem to claim that FET would reflect RET perfectly. It doesn't. Instead, it reflects reality. The illuminated area in RET and FET will not be identical, only vaguely similar.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2012, 01:17:20 AM by PizzaPlanet »
hacking your precious forum as we speak 8) 8) 8)

Re: What causes the circle of darkness?
« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2012, 01:33:24 AM »
A large mistake in your posts is that you seem to claim that FET would reflect RET perfectly. It doesn't. Instead, it reflects reality. The illuminated area in RET and FET will not be identical, only vaguely similar.
Since you're making so many mistakes, I'll just blow you away on this one point with one example:

Quote from: http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=40062.msg1003680;topicseen#msg1003680
In RET, the Sun shines on exactly half of the Earth at all times (ignoring solar eclipses and atmospheric effects). At the equinox, every location (except the geographic poles) on Earth receives 12 hours of light and 12 hours of dark. (The poles receive 24 hours of twilight.) This matches observation.

In FET, the shape of the Sun's illumination on the Earth varies with the season. Yes, on the equinoxes, the illuminated area is a semicircle with the terminator halfway around the disc from the Sun. In June Solstice the illuminated area includes everywhere north of the Arctic Circle throughout the day, but nowhere south of the Antarctic Circle anytime during the day. In the December Solstice, the Sun's illumination includes everywhere south of the Antarctic Circle all day and nowhere north of the Arctic Circle any time during the day.

For the observer south of the Antarctic Circle at midnight on the December Solstice, the Sun appears due south, even though the shortest distance to the Sun would be to the north across the darkness at the North Pole.

Clearly RET has the better explanation.

So this example shows in blue the 'reality' basis of our claim.

If you need to find more posts that substantiate our claim, just let us know. We've listed various sources, including live outdoor webcams to determine sunrise and sunset times, almanacs, and our own first-hand accounts.
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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PizzaPlanet

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Re: What causes the circle of darkness?
« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2012, 02:41:20 AM »
"This matches observation" is a random phrase. Do you remember what saying random phrases does not cause? C'mon, boy, I know you can do it!

"Yes, on the equinoxes, the illuminated area is a semicircle with the terminator halfway around the disc from the Sun. In June Solstice the illuminated area includes everywhere north of the Arctic Circle throughout the day, but nowhere south of the Antarctic Circle anytime during the day. In the December Solstice, the Sun's illumination includes everywhere south of the Antarctic Circle all day and nowhere north of the Arctic Circle any time during the day.

For the observer south of the Antarctic Circle at midnight on the December Solstice, the Sun appears due south, even though the shortest distance to the Sun would be to the north across the darkness at the North Pole." - An interesting claim. Where's the support?
hacking your precious forum as we speak 8) 8) 8)

Re: What causes the circle of darkness?
« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2012, 03:17:14 AM »
"This matches observation" is a random phrase. Do you remember what saying random phrases does not cause? C'mon, boy, I know you can do it!

"Yes, on the equinoxes, the illuminated area is a semicircle with the terminator halfway around the disc from the Sun. In June Solstice the illuminated area includes everywhere north of the Arctic Circle throughout the day, but nowhere south of the Antarctic Circle anytime during the day. In the December Solstice, the Sun's illumination includes everywhere south of the Antarctic Circle all day and nowhere north of the Arctic Circle any time during the day.

For the observer south of the Antarctic Circle at midnight on the December Solstice, the Sun appears due south, even though the shortest distance to the Sun would be to the north across the darkness at the North Pole." - An interesting claim. Where's the support?
Please don't move the goal posts. The previous location of the goal posts was simply to show that the claim was based on matching reality vice RET. If you'll concede your error on that, I'd be happy to help you with the search function again on another challenge.
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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PizzaPlanet

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Re: What causes the circle of darkness?
« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2012, 03:34:12 AM »
The previous location of the goal posts was simply to show that the claim was based on matching reality vice RET.
Really? I don't recall setting such a goal post. I recall pointing out that, according to yourself, just saying a random phrase doesn't make it true.
Oh, guess what, you've just said yet another random phrase. Following your own standards seems to stump you.
hacking your precious forum as we speak 8) 8) 8)

Re: What causes the circle of darkness?
« Reply #28 on: January 22, 2012, 03:45:19 AM »
The previous location of the goal posts was simply to show that the claim was based on matching reality vice RET.
Really? I don't recall setting such a goal post. I recall pointing out that, according to yourself, just saying a random phrase doesn't make it true.
Oh, guess what, you've just said yet another random phrase. Following your own standards seems to stump you.

Here you go:
A large mistake in your posts is that you seem to claim that FET would reflect RET perfectly.
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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PizzaPlanet

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Re: What causes the circle of darkness?
« Reply #29 on: January 22, 2012, 08:36:18 AM »
Here you go:
A large mistake in your posts is that you seem to claim that FET would reflect RET perfectly.
Oh, I'm so terribly sorry that you misunderstood me. By "A large mistake in your posts is [...]" I meant "A large mistake in your posts is [...]", not "This is your challenge". Your challenge is to stop saying random phrases, since they do not make things true. I've pointed this out many, many times by repeating the quote over and over. You should have caught up on it, but I'm not too surprised that you didn't. After all, you still seem to think that, for example, posts in the Lounge are not posts in the Lounge.

In other words: Come back once you've done some science. I'm not interested in your telemarketing.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2012, 08:38:12 AM by PizzaPlanet »
hacking your precious forum as we speak 8) 8) 8)