Chain Logic and God

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Benocrates

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Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #180 on: February 26, 2008, 11:41:00 AM »
omg i fukken hate scrolling shut up

lol, then don't bother reading it. Or just assume god did it all and be happy with that, lol.
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Colonel Gaydafi

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Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #181 on: February 26, 2008, 11:45:43 AM »
I only read your first section here Benocrates cos I'm lazy and I'm watching a film but I want to point out the Cain's wife most likely came from the other people living on the earth then. It mentions in the story of Cain and Abel about other people being present on the earth when Cain was sent out to wander around with some weird mark on him. I asked some theologians about this and they all said that it was because God created other humans apart from Adam and Eve so if you were to take the creation story literally you would have to take this into account.

The problem I see glaring in that is what evidence is there for this. Its all so convenient, just like the FE UA. Sure, its possible if you accept its truth but there is no evidence that it exists. Why would the bible leave it so incomplete by not explaining this? If there is some kind of evidence I'm not aware of then I'd like to read it.

I'll get back to you when the film is over cos its too much effort to look up stuff now
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divito the truthist

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Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #182 on: February 26, 2008, 11:48:40 AM »
Most of what JC taught was amazing moral philosophy and I follow alot of that in my life. You can too but you don't need to accept its biblical authority. It is reason which demands evidence beyond hearsay when it comes to a god hypothesis.

This is why I find the followers of cults to be quite absentminded. Following the guidelines set out in the bible have no meaningful or empirical attachment to any supernatural entity, especially considering said guidelines were created by man, and benefit not only man, but the very creators of said cult.
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Benocrates

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Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #183 on: February 26, 2008, 11:53:31 AM »
Most of what JC taught was amazing moral philosophy and I follow alot of that in my life. You can too but you don't need to accept its biblical authority. It is reason which demands evidence beyond hearsay when it comes to a god hypothesis.

This is why I find the followers of cults to be quite absentminded. Following the guidelines set out in the bible have no meaningful or empirical attachment to any supernatural entity, especially considering said guidelines were created by man, and benefit not only man, but the very creators of said cult.

Agreed. It may be very reasonable to say that abortion and stem cell research are wrong and against the truths of the world if you accept that life is in and of itself a Good beyond anything else. That is an acceptable view if you can defend it with reasoned argument based on observation and experience, personal and shared as well as empirical evidence (I've discussed possible empirical evidence for morality in another thread). To say that God said life is in and of itself good because its written by other people in an ancient text is not an argument, its the theological equivalent of saying "look over there" and running away.
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Colonel Gaydafi

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Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #184 on: February 26, 2008, 12:58:13 PM »
I only read your first section here Benocrates cos I'm lazy and I'm watching a film but I want to point out the Cain's wife most likely came from the other people living on the earth then. It mentions in the story of Cain and Abel about other people being present on the earth when Cain was sent out to wander around with some weird mark on him. I asked some theologians about this and they all said that it was because God created other humans apart from Adam and Eve so if you were to take the creation story literally you would have to take this into account.

The problem I see glaring in that is what evidence is there for this. Its all so convenient, just like the FE UA. Sure, its possible if you accept its truth but there is no evidence that it exists. Why would the bible leave it so incomplete by not explaining this? If there is some kind of evidence I'm not aware of then I'd like to read it.

Right now I've taken a wee bit of time to think about it. All I know about the bible's position on it is that there was at least one other land apart from the land that Adam and Eve were in and that there were people there. So yeah its not explained more and I don't understant why either, maybe God thought it wasn't important
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Benocrates

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Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #185 on: February 26, 2008, 01:00:56 PM »
perhaps something to test our faith, see if we're worthy, lol. Why does god make this all so hard for us? If there really is an intelligence in the universe that is loving and caring about his creation why not just give us a utopia. The arguments of the devil controlling the world as well is so blatantly pagan its ridiculous.
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Colonel Gaydafi

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Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #186 on: February 26, 2008, 01:07:43 PM »
Cos a utopia would be boring. I remember an old lady I know being asked that if we all acted as "true brothers and sisters to each other" (or really took care of each other) what would like be like and she answered boring. And I agreed. And if I was God I would agree too so I think if God was to choose between utopia and no utopia God would choose no utopia. If he has a sense of humour that is, which religious texts seem to imply
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Benocrates

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Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #187 on: February 26, 2008, 01:27:34 PM »
Cos a utopia would be boring. I remember an old lady I know being asked that if we all acted as "true brothers and sisters to each other" (or really took care of each other) what would like be like and she answered boring. And I agreed. And if I was God I would agree too so I think if God was to choose between utopia and no utopia God would choose no utopia. If he has a sense of humour that is, which religious texts seem to imply

But didn't we exist in a utopia before satan tempted us with the fruit of knowledge. God was angered by this, does this not imply it would be better to live in ignorance but plentiful bounty. He made man toil the earth and took away eden because we sinned, right?
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Colonel Gaydafi

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Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #188 on: February 26, 2008, 01:30:36 PM »
Thats where the free will stuff comes in though
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Benocrates

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Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #189 on: February 26, 2008, 01:31:59 PM »
Thats where the free will stuff comes in though

Right, but I'm saying god implied that ignorance is more peaceful and is better than free will. He punished us for original sin and then Jesus died for it....or something like that.
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Kasroa Is Gone

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Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #190 on: February 26, 2008, 01:36:26 PM »
And that's where the blind faith comes in.

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Colonel Gaydafi

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Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #191 on: February 26, 2008, 01:40:00 PM »
Thats where the free will stuff comes in though

Right, but I'm saying god implied that ignorance is more peaceful and is better than free will. He punished us for original sin and then Jesus died for it....or something like that.

I think he was implying one choice was better than the other but I know if I had the choice I would have eaten the fruit so I guess God didn't give us much of a chance if he did
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Kasroa Is Gone

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Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #192 on: February 26, 2008, 01:40:59 PM »
What I'd like to know is what was Satan doing in the Garden of Eden?

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Colonel Gaydafi

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Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #193 on: February 26, 2008, 01:43:46 PM »
He fell out of heaven duh
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Kasroa Is Gone

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Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #194 on: February 26, 2008, 01:46:48 PM »
That's why the world's been in turmoil for that past 6000 years - We're caught in the middle of Satan's lawsuit against God for not correctly sign-posting that hole in Heaven that appeared during maintenance..

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Benocrates

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Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #195 on: February 26, 2008, 01:51:12 PM »
Here is a great video of Rickey Gervais' view on all of this:
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Colonel Gaydafi

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Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #196 on: February 26, 2008, 02:00:07 PM »
I wanna watch damnit but I my headphones are lost
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Benocrates

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Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #197 on: February 26, 2008, 02:03:16 PM »
Well watch it when you can, he pretty much poses all these questions in the most hilarious way possible.
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Colonel Gaydafi

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Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #198 on: February 26, 2008, 02:20:13 PM »
will do
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Benocrates

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Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #199 on: February 28, 2008, 09:35:36 AM »
Ricky Gervais is my latest hero, lol. He has a degree in philosophy and is just in general a "funny fucker." Everyone should check out his standups Animals, Politics and Fame. All clips available on Youtube. Also you should be able to torrent them or find them streamed somewhere else like Stage6 or something.
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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #200 on: February 28, 2008, 10:49:12 AM »
Appoligies, my computer broke and I'm at the library. I only skimmed the posts to find responses to me. If I missed something please direct me. ;)

Yes meddling with nature. He would choose to leave evil out of the equation for no other reason than to stop people carrying it out.
If I build a sand castle but leave out a tree just so that 'imaginary sand people' cannot make a tireswing, have I taken away their freewill? Is it meddling to create a perfectly legitamite sandcastle without ever having a tree, or is it meddling to remove the tree after having conceived it? Is it meddling if it is my sandcastle? (I am only indulging this definition because it sounds as if you use the connotation of meddling with misguided, wrongful, or unneeded to justify the nonaction of removing evil.)

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It's very simple if we are both making the same assumptions: First, evil exists. Second, God can create a universe with evil or one without it.
Evil and God were defined as such for the argument to apply, so yes to both. :)

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So it follows logically that if he creates a universe without evil then all inhabitants do not have free will because although evil exists they will never have the choice to carry it out.

This is flawed. No choice to carry one exact 'something' out is not a counter example of free will.
EXAMPLE:
You do not have the choice of spontaneously duplicating yourself all over the universe. HOWEVER, you still (potentially) have free will.

......Pay attention to the underlined parts in your quote above. "Evil vesus no evil". Your proof uses two mutually exclusive conditions.

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You said it yourself "the remaining options". So God removes certain options thus he removes free will.
Same flawed statement. Not having options is not necessariliy a limit of free will. See above.

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Also ask any theist they will tell you that this is covered in the Bible. It's an old debate and there is only one logical conclusion: If God wanted humans to have free will and choose to serve him then he had to provide them with all choices otherwise we are slaves whether we are ignorant of evil or not.

I'd rather not bring the bible into this proof, becaue there is no foundation for its claims, my argument doesn't oppose just this religion, it can't be taken literally, and does not contribute to this in any way that I can see.

Not "ignorant" to evil. God could create evil as a logical impossibility in itself. Right now, it is impossible (in this reality) to do many things because they are logically impossible. EXAMPLE:
A bachelor cannot be married because of a logical consequence of being not married. Sure, some married people may act like bachelors but they really aren't.
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

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divito the truthist

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Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #201 on: February 28, 2008, 11:01:04 AM »
Free will doesn't exist. The end.
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cmdshft

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Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #202 on: February 29, 2008, 10:57:04 AM »

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Midnight

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Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #203 on: March 01, 2008, 05:54:22 AM »
My problem with his ideas is that it is a ridiculous thing.

Genius. PURE, undiluted genius.

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cmdshft

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Raist

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Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #205 on: March 02, 2008, 01:51:33 PM »
Free will doesn't exist. The end.
Dumbest argument ever.

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Rationalizer

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Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #206 on: March 03, 2008, 08:28:45 AM »
Free will doesn't exist. The end.

Free will does exists.  men have choices.  men are not forced to be good or evil.  They determine the outcome by the choices they make.
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Midnight

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Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #207 on: March 03, 2008, 09:42:47 AM »
Free will doesn't exist. The end.

Free will does exists.  men have choices.  men are not forced to be good or evil.  They determine the outcome by the choices they make.

No, I agree with Danny Dorito. Human NATURE dictates our choices, not free will. We are enslaved to our human natures. Thus, not free will.
My problem with his ideas is that it is a ridiculous thing.

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Username

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Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #208 on: March 03, 2008, 09:54:29 AM »
So people never overcome human nature?  If they can overcome it, that means that argument doesn't follow.


I read an interesting but kinda obvious essay a few days ago on Chaotic systems and free will.  I'll have to dig up some relevant quotes from it.
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sokarul

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Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #209 on: March 03, 2008, 12:22:30 PM »
You tools may not have any free will but I do. 
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