Chain Logic and God

  • 250 Replies
  • 49876 Views
?

Loard Z

  • 4680
  • +0/-0
  • Insert witty intellectual phrase here...
Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #120 on: February 20, 2008, 10:21:11 AM »
Evil does not exist.
if i remember, austria is an old, dis-used name for what is now Germany.
See My Greatness

*

ﮎingulaЯiτy

  • Arbitrator
  • 9054
  • +0/-0
  • Resident atheist.
Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #121 on: February 20, 2008, 10:29:34 AM »
In that case benevolence doesn't exist, so God cannot be omnibenevolent. :(
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

*

Colonel Gaydafi

  • Spam Moderator
  • Planar Moderator
  • 65234
  • +17/-49
  • Queen of the gays!
Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #122 on: February 20, 2008, 10:37:27 AM »
Thank you for taking additional time for discussing this with me.
The choice doesn't exist if there is an impossibility in it. If people couldn't be harmed, you can't harm them. If this is an elimination of free will because an option is impossible, than we don't have free will because we don't have an option of vanishing, teleporting, flying without technological aid, etc. We still have other choices to make and define our own personalities with.

But choosing between good and good isn't choosing, it's like the Ford Model T when you could choose any colour so long as it was black.

But I need to think this through properly but can't now, I'll get back to you when I get back from my trip.
Quote from: WardoggKC130FE
If Gayer doesn't remember you, you might as well do yourself a favor and become an hero.
Quote from: Raa
there is a difference between touching a muff and putting your hand into it isn't there?

*

Space Cowgirl

  • MOM
  • Planar Moderator
  • 52369
  • +98/-95
  • Official FE Recruiter
Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #123 on: February 20, 2008, 04:18:06 PM »
If I choose a snickers over a baby ruth I still have made a choice.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

*

ﮎingulaЯiτy

  • Arbitrator
  • 9054
  • +0/-0
  • Resident atheist.
Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #124 on: February 20, 2008, 06:26:32 PM »
But choosing between good and good isn't choosing, it's like the Ford Model T when you could choose any colour so long as it was black.
Like Space Cowgirl demonstrated, there are other options...
Perhaps any color other than black, because black doesn't exist. A parallel example might be some color that really doesn't exist here and now so we can't pick it.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2008, 06:33:22 PM by ﮎingulaЯiτy »
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

*

cmdshft

  • The Elder Ones
  • 13115
  • +0/-0
  • swiggity swooty
Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #125 on: February 20, 2008, 08:29:14 PM »
I feel that at the core of all this, the Schroedinger's Cat theory hold truest.

You cannot know anything about anything without observing it, and before you observe it, any conclusion or result is possible, which kinda defuncts all this philosophy about choice.

Please, stop trying to continue the Matrix's idea's about choice and understanding the choices we make. It was well explained in the movie and doesn't need further thought.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2008, 07:01:50 AM by Daedalus »

*

ﮎingulaЯiτy

  • Arbitrator
  • 9054
  • +0/-0
  • Resident atheist.
Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #126 on: February 21, 2008, 02:24:07 AM »
The thread has less to do with choice than you might think, and nothing to do with the Matrix. You are the second person I have had to remind, that you are not obligated to read or post in this topic.
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

?

Althalus

  • 4062
  • +0/-0
Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #127 on: February 21, 2008, 03:53:20 AM »
Limited free will is not free will. Classic example of wanting to have your cake and eat it too.

*

divito the truthist

  • The Elder Ones
  • 6901
  • +0/-0
  • Relativist, Existentialist, Nihilist
Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #128 on: February 21, 2008, 04:07:53 AM »
You cannot know anything about anything without observing it, and before you observe it, anything conclusion or result is possible, which kinda defuncts all this philosophy about choice.

Exactly.
Our existentialist, relativist, nihilist, determinist, fascist, eugenicist moderator hath returned.
Quote from: Fortuna
objectively good

?

Loard Z

  • 4680
  • +0/-0
  • Insert witty intellectual phrase here...
Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #129 on: February 21, 2008, 06:17:41 AM »
In that case benevolence doesn't exist, so God cannot be omnibenevolent. :(

But God does not exist either.
if i remember, austria is an old, dis-used name for what is now Germany.
See My Greatness

*

ﮎingulaЯiτy

  • Arbitrator
  • 9054
  • +0/-0
  • Resident atheist.
Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #130 on: February 21, 2008, 10:09:08 AM »
In that case benevolence doesn't exist, so God cannot be omnibenevolent.

But God does not exist either.
I should have said, "if there is a god" somewhere in that.

Quote
You cannot know anything about anything without observing it, and before you observe it, anything conclusion or result is possible, which kinda defuncts all this philosophy about choice.

I have not observed happiness. I have observed people who smile, change their behavior to "giddy" and treat others depending on happiness without ever actually observing a 'feeling'. Concrete nouns follow your logic, but it is far from a universal truth. How of you observe choice? By your logic, if it can't be observed, how do you even know it exists?

I like where you're going with this though, but it still seems incomplete.

Quote
Limited free will is not free will. Classic example of wanting to have your cake and eat it too.

I'm not saying something isn't an option because God directly places boundaries on your actions; I'm saying that another form of existence in which evil is impossible on a level of natural truth (like physics) would create limits without inhibiting free will. Did you not read my variation of choosing a car color or the limitation of nonexistence? We are incapable of disobeying the laws of nature, but these limits are already in place while free will is thought to exist by many people. These limits still allow choice as it is thought of currently. Otherwise, free will would mean.... omnipotence.
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

?

Kasroa Is Gone

  • 6863
  • +0/-0
Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #131 on: February 21, 2008, 10:35:40 AM »
e]

I'm not saying something isn't an option because God directly places boundaries on your actions; I'm saying that another form of existence in which evil is impossible on a level of natural truth (like physics) would create limits without inhibiting free will. Did you not read my variation of choosing a car color or the limitation of nonexistence? We are incapable of disobeying the laws of nature, but these limits are already in place while free will is thought to exist by many people. These limits still allow choice as it is thought of currently. Otherwise, free will would mean.... omnipotence.

The bolded part is what I have a problem with. On the surface it might seem okay to hypothesise about an existence where evil is impossible but I firmly believe that such an existence is an impossibility so any conclusions made from that hypothesis are meaningless. It's the same as when people ask "what if the Sun vanished, would we instantaneously leave our orbital path?"

Nice idea but impossible as it would simply break phsyical laws. I believe an existence without evil would break the laws of free will.

First you would have to define evil; impossible, then you would have to somehow have everyone doing good (which would also need to be defined; impossible). The breakdown occurs when you come to a simple cross-road in someone's life where they commit an act of good (or in this universe it would be simply any act because all acts would be good). How exactly would you stop said person from doing the opposite? let's use a simple example: A man walks down a street and sees a lady drop her purse unawares. Let's say in our definition of good, picking up the purse and giving it to the lady is a good act. If the man has been made in such a way that he does not even think about keeping the purse then he has no free-will. He is programed to act a certain way.

Take a real world example. In a computer game the enemy A.I. may be programmed in such a way that they can calculate lots of different ways of attacking you but they simply do not have the capacity to "not kill you". They have no free will. A world without evil is not a world with free-will. You can't define it for starters and you can't prevent people from doing the opposite of good without taking away their free will. A choice of good acts is not free will and ironically the statement itself is the proof; to have defined good you must have defined evil at the same time. Every choice has an opposite. Like Yoda said "...Do or do not". Remember always that you have predefined good and evil for this no-evil universe to exist. That's the important part. Also applying physics to philosophy doesn't work like when one trys to apply it to religion or FET for that matter.

?

Conspiracy Mastermind

  • 1836
  • +0/-0
  • There is no conspiracy...
Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #132 on: February 21, 2008, 11:05:55 AM »
Oh dear, a complicated religious debate. Who will save us?
Quote from: Tomcooper84
there is no optical light, there is just light and theres no other type of light unless you start talkling about energy saving lightbulbs compared to other types of light bulbs
ENaG: Evidence Not a Guarantee.

?

Althalus

  • 4062
  • +0/-0
Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #133 on: February 21, 2008, 12:15:05 PM »
Quote
Limited free will is not free will. Classic example of wanting to have your cake and eat it too.

I'm not saying something isn't an option because God directly places boundaries on your actions; I'm saying that another form of existence in which evil is impossible on a level of natural truth (like physics) would create limits without inhibiting free will. Did you not read my variation of choosing a car color or the limitation of nonexistence? We are incapable of disobeying the laws of nature, but these limits are already in place while free will is thought to exist by many people. These limits still allow choice as it is thought of currently. Otherwise, free will would mean.... omnipotence.
Monotheistic religions define evil as disobeying God. Free will is the ability to choose and control your own actions. Removing the choice of obedience would make all humans slaves to God, and only allow superficial decisions to be made.

?

Conspiracy Mastermind

  • 1836
  • +0/-0
  • There is no conspiracy...
Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #134 on: February 21, 2008, 12:18:37 PM »
Thing is, in Genesis, why didn't God just not have a tree of knowledge? Was it some test of their obedience?
Quote from: Tomcooper84
there is no optical light, there is just light and theres no other type of light unless you start talkling about energy saving lightbulbs compared to other types of light bulbs
ENaG: Evidence Not a Guarantee.

?

Althalus

  • 4062
  • +0/-0
Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #135 on: February 21, 2008, 12:27:25 PM »
Yes.

?

Conspiracy Mastermind

  • 1836
  • +0/-0
  • There is no conspiracy...
Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #136 on: February 21, 2008, 12:31:10 PM »
And God lied to them. So he knew Satan would test Eve?
Quote from: Tomcooper84
there is no optical light, there is just light and theres no other type of light unless you start talkling about energy saving lightbulbs compared to other types of light bulbs
ENaG: Evidence Not a Guarantee.

*

Space Cowgirl

  • MOM
  • Planar Moderator
  • 52369
  • +98/-95
  • Official FE Recruiter
Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #137 on: February 21, 2008, 12:49:53 PM »
What I don't get about the story, is why did god get all pissy and wrathful with his children?  I think he overreacted just a tad.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

?

Kasroa Is Gone

  • 6863
  • +0/-0
Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #138 on: February 21, 2008, 12:55:13 PM »
It's hard for a single parent.

*

cmdshft

  • The Elder Ones
  • 13115
  • +0/-0
  • swiggity swooty
Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #139 on: February 21, 2008, 03:22:41 PM »
It's hard for a single parent.

Story of my life.

?

Conspiracy Mastermind

  • 1836
  • +0/-0
  • There is no conspiracy...
Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #140 on: February 21, 2008, 03:23:44 PM »
Also, how did every single one of the six billion people on this planet, each one different, come from two people? It would mean serious in-breeding. And where did that town come from?
Quote from: Tomcooper84
there is no optical light, there is just light and theres no other type of light unless you start talkling about energy saving lightbulbs compared to other types of light bulbs
ENaG: Evidence Not a Guarantee.

?

Althalus

  • 4062
  • +0/-0
Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #141 on: February 21, 2008, 03:32:43 PM »
And God lied to them.
I don't recall that happening.

So he knew Satan would test Eve?
Yes.


Quote
What I don't get about the story, is why did god get all pissy and wrathful with his children?  I think he overreacted just a tad.
Actions have consequences. Paradise is only possible when everybody plays their part, so disobedience meant no more paradise.

?

Kasroa Is Gone

  • 6863
  • +0/-0
Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #142 on: February 21, 2008, 03:34:01 PM »
Also, how did every single one of the six billion people on this planet, each one different, come from two people? It would mean serious in-breeding. And where did that town come from?

Well if you think about it, inbreeding happened whatever you believe about the origins of man.

?

Althalus

  • 4062
  • +0/-0
Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #143 on: February 21, 2008, 03:39:13 PM »
When you have a very large population the effects of inbreeding are negated.

*

Space Cowgirl

  • MOM
  • Planar Moderator
  • 52369
  • +98/-95
  • Official FE Recruiter
Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #144 on: February 21, 2008, 04:26:00 PM »
I wonder why God didn't just kill Adam and Eve and start over again.  Eventually he'd have found a pair that wouldn't eat from the tree. 
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

*

cmdshft

  • The Elder Ones
  • 13115
  • +0/-0
  • swiggity swooty
Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #145 on: February 21, 2008, 04:33:41 PM »
His mommy wouldn't let him.

?

Althalus

  • 4062
  • +0/-0
Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #146 on: February 22, 2008, 12:24:47 AM »
I wonder why God didn't just kill Adam and Eve and start over again.  Eventually he'd have found a pair that wouldn't eat from the tree. 
This has to be the stupidest thing I've read on this board.

*

cmdshft

  • The Elder Ones
  • 13115
  • +0/-0
  • swiggity swooty
Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #147 on: February 22, 2008, 07:19:51 AM »
I wonder why God didn't just kill Adam and Eve and start over again.  Eventually he'd have found a pair that wouldn't eat from the tree. 
This has to be the stupidest thing I've read on this board.

Leave my princess alone, she has a point, assgoblin.

*

ﮎingulaЯiτy

  • Arbitrator
  • 9054
  • +0/-0
  • Resident atheist.
Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #148 on: February 22, 2008, 07:35:15 AM »
e]

I'm not saying something isn't an option because God directly places boundaries on your actions; I'm saying that another form of existence in which evil is impossible on a level of natural truth (like physics) would create limits without inhibiting free will. Did you not read my variation of choosing a car color or the limitation of nonexistence? We are incapable of disobeying the laws of nature, but these limits are already in place while free will is thought to exist by many people. These limits still allow choice as it is thought of currently. Otherwise, free will would mean.... omnipotence.

The bolded part is what I have a problem with. On the surface it might seem okay to hypothesise about an existence where evil is impossible but I firmly believe that such an existence is an impossibility so any conclusions made from that hypothesis are meaningless. It's the same as when people ask "what if the Sun vanished, would we instantaneously leave our orbital path?"

Nice idea but impossible as it would simply break phsyical laws. I believe an existence without evil would break the laws of free will.
Perhaps the inability for us to imagine it is throwing you. The bolded text was most useful to me in determining your train of thought. Breaking physical laws is strictly in our definition of physics. If God is the creator of physics, than he should be able to create them in a sense that evil doesn't exist, not that we don't think of it.

The color "Kraomos" doesn't exist, so we can't imagine it. Because we can't, does this mean we don't have free will?

Quote
First you would have to define evil; impossible, then you would have to somehow have everyone doing good (which would also need to be defined; impossible).

No definition is universal. In the sense that the bible or religion sets attributes to God (like omnibenevolence) those same concepts of good/evil are used and considered. Describing them perfectly with words is the obstacle.

Quote
The breakdown occurs when you come to a simple cross-road in someone's life where they commit an act of good (or in this universe it would be simply any act because all acts would be good). How exactly would you stop said person from doing the opposite?

Why does this possible universe have to have opposites? What is the opposite of 'grape flavored'?

Quote
let's use a simple example: A man walks down a street and sees a lady drop her purse unawares. Let's say in our definition of good, picking up the purse and giving it to the lady is a good act. If the man has been made in such a way that he does not even think about keeping the purse then he has no free-will. He is programed to act a certain way.

The purse implies financial loss or gain and thus potential harm. An all-powerful all-knowing God who created the universe, physics, etc. should have created a world without potential for harm. Since I am not omniscient, I can't describe a perfect world.
However, the first idea of not being harmed makes me think of the tin-man from X-men. ;)
It has to be possible if he can create natural law and is omnipotent. Omniscience may play a role too for comparing all that could be.

Quote
Take a real world example. In a computer game the enemy A.I. may be programmed in such a way that they can calculate lots of different ways of attacking you but they simply do not have the capacity to "not kill you". They have no free will. A world without evil is not a world with free-will. You can't define it for starters and you can't prevent people from doing the opposite of good without taking away their free will.
This example is reversed in glorifying evil rather than extinguishing it, but it is still very useful. In this case, consider this question: What if it was fundamentally impossible for the enemy to inflict damage? ...A world where nobody would understand what 'pain' means, becuase nobody could cause it. Once again, common experience of this world inhibits imagination of such a different world.

Quote
Applying physics to philosophy doesn't work like when one tries to apply it to religion or FET for that matter.

Do you mean "physics", or "rationalism and logic"? The two main branches of philosophy are that of rationalism and empiricism and a very large portion of famous philosophers were rationalists.
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

*

ﮎingulaЯiτy

  • Arbitrator
  • 9054
  • +0/-0
  • Resident atheist.
Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #149 on: February 22, 2008, 07:38:47 AM »
Althalus, I'm confused and you seem to know your religion.

You say free will is disobeying God. You say humans were given free will by eating the apple. Eating the apple was disobeying God.

Did I understand that right? If so, they needed free will in order to get free will.
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.