Chain Logic and God

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Althalus

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Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #150 on: February 22, 2008, 08:49:05 AM »
Free will is the ability to control and choose your actions. Humans have the choice to obey or disobey God, and have always had it. People invariably succumb to their desires and sin.

I wonder why God didn't just kill Adam and Eve and start over again.  Eventually he'd have found a pair that wouldn't eat from the tree. 
This has to be the stupidest thing I've read on this board.

Leave my princess alone, she has a point, assgoblin.
It might be valid if there ever was a single human who did not sin (Jesus doesn't count).

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cmdshft

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Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #151 on: February 22, 2008, 09:15:06 AM »
How does Jesus not count? Boy you love to bend the rules, don't you?

Her point was... If God was so displeased with the choice and excertion of free will done by Adam and Eve, why didn't he just say "Fuck this" and start over? Seems to me he'd rather suffer his own creation rather than meet his first set of standards. Plus, the other thing that boggles me, is why would a being supposedly so powerful and perfect create something such as the Tree of Life and the Tree of Knowledge and put them in the same garden if he didn't want them to try and eat from them in the first place? Wouldn't it have made more sense to, oh I don't know, NOT make something like that to begin with?

As I said before, God created man in his own image. Therefore, all the imperfections, sin, stupidity, and other what-have-you's all stem from the simple equation that God Himself cannot be perfect.

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #152 on: February 22, 2008, 11:24:48 AM »
I wonder why God didn't just kill Adam and Eve and start over again.  Eventually he'd have found a pair that wouldn't eat from the tree. 
This has to be the stupidest thing I've read on this board.

You should go back and read some of your own posts then.  You seem to have matured a little since I melted you down a while back, but you're still a bit defensive when it comes to all this God stuff. 

Thanks Daedalus.. that is exactly what I meant.  God was ever so wrathful with his creation, as if their failure wasn't part of his plan all along.  This tells me God isn't perfect, or the stories are bullshit.   
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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Althalus

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Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #153 on: February 22, 2008, 12:27:27 PM »
How does Jesus not count? Boy you love to bend the rules, don't you?
Jesus was an incarnation of God, he lived a perfect life, God is perfect.

Her point was... If God was so displeased with the choice and excertion of free will done by Adam and Eve, why didn't he just say "Fuck this" and start over? Seems to me he'd rather suffer his own creation rather than meet his first set of standards. Plus, the other thing that boggles me, is why would a being supposedly so powerful and perfect create something such as the Tree of Life and the Tree of Knowledge and put them in the same garden if he didn't want them to try and eat from them in the first place? Wouldn't it have made more sense to, oh I don't know, NOT make something like that to begin with?
It's impossible for an all knowing being to fuck up. People always fuck up, because they follow their desires when they should obey their reason. It would not be possible to make people that never make mistakes and have free will, It is entirely up to the people to be good, or they would have no free will, and people doing good things without choice are mindless slaves.

As I said before, God created man in his own image. Therefore, all the imperfections, sin, stupidity, and other what-have-you's all stem from the simple equation that God Himself cannot be perfect.
God creating man in his own image was God giving man a soul, conscience, and free will. Man had the choice to obey God, but obeyed his desires to be as great as God instead. Sin comes from man.


I wonder why God didn't just kill Adam and Eve and start over again.  Eventually he'd have found a pair that wouldn't eat from the tree. 
This has to be the stupidest thing I've read on this board.

You should go back and read some of your own posts then.  You seem to have matured a little since I melted you down a while back, but you're still a bit defensive when it comes to all this God stuff. 

Thanks Daedalus.. that is exactly what I meant.  God was ever so wrathful with his creation, as if their failure wasn't part of his plan all along.  This tells me God isn't perfect, or the stories are bullshit.   
You seem to have just the same lack of understanding of theology as before. In every case of human existence save one they have sinned. The one exception was Christ, who lived as man was originally meant to. If in every case of human existence, save the one case where God incarnated himself, humans failed, why do you think that God would have come up with some sinless people if he just repeated the trial again and again, billions so far haven't made it. It is impossible.

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #154 on: February 22, 2008, 01:53:45 PM »
How do you know he didn't repeat the trial again and again?  You don't.  If God was all knowing why did he get mad at them for failing?  Didn't he know they were going to fail?   Wasn't their failure part of the plan? 

Hon, I understand a lot more than you do.  I understand that you (like most religious zealots) think you know all the answers when you don't. 
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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Althalus

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Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #155 on: February 22, 2008, 02:19:32 PM »
How do you know he didn't repeat the trial again and again?  You don't.
How do you know he did? You don't.

If God was all knowing why did he get mad at them for failing?  Didn't he know they were going to fail? Wasn't their failure part of the plan?
I can know something is inevitable but still be emotionally effected by it.

Hon, I understand a lot more than you do.
Yet you have never demonstrated this.

I understand that you (like most religious zealots) think you know all the answers when you don't.
Character assassination is the solace of the defeated.

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #156 on: February 22, 2008, 04:59:59 PM »
Yeah yeah.. you assassinate my character then I assassinate yours, it's a vicious circle.  Let's see who flips out this time ;)

I never said I knew what God did or didn't do.. that's your department. 

So God is emotionally unstable too?  Do you realize how ridiculous that is? He knew what was going to happen, then he let it happen, then he punished them for it.  He set them up,  because it's all part of the plan,  right?  So why'd he get mad, if that was what was supposed to happen?  Are you equating yourself with God now?  How is your emotional response to an inevitability relevant to how god reacted?
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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Kasroa Is Gone

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Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #157 on: February 23, 2008, 05:22:55 AM »
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I'm not saying something isn't an option because God directly places boundaries on your actions; I'm saying that another form of existence in which evil is impossible on a level of natural truth (like physics) would create limits without inhibiting free will. Did you not read my variation of choosing a car color or the limitation of nonexistence? We are incapable of disobeying the laws of nature, but these limits are already in place while free will is thought to exist by many people. These limits still allow choice as it is thought of currently. Otherwise, free will would mean.... omnipotence.

The bolded part is what I have a problem with. On the surface it might seem okay to hypothesise about an existence where evil is impossible but I firmly believe that such an existence is an impossibility so any conclusions made from that hypothesis are meaningless. It's the same as when people ask "what if the Sun vanished, would we instantaneously leave our orbital path?"

Nice idea but impossible as it would simply break phsyical laws. I believe an existence without evil would break the laws of free will.
Perhaps the inability for us to imagine it is throwing you. The bolded text was most useful to me in determining your train of thought. Breaking physical laws is strictly in our definition of physics. If God is the creator of physics, than he should be able to create them in a sense that evil doesn't exist, not that we don't think of it.

The color "Kraomos" doesn't exist, so we can't imagine it. Because we can't, does this mean we don't have free will?

I'm having difficulty imagining it because it is actually impossible - if you want free will to exist. To have a world where a person can take one set of actions but not the opposite is not unimaginable but the inhabitants of this world would not be exhibiting free will. The simple act of preventing any opposite decision is removing free will.

I'm not sure about that example with an imaginary colour. First of all, every colour is imaginary because they're made in the brain. But that's really besides the point, any example you could give wouldn't really be relevant to this discussion because as I said I can imagine the world that you describe but again, free will would simply have to be absent.
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First you would have to define evil; impossible, then you would have to somehow have everyone doing good (which would also need to be defined; impossible).

No definition is universal. In the sense that the bible or religion sets attributes to God (like omnibenevolence) those same concepts of good/evil are used and considered. Describing them perfectly with words is the obstacle.

Describing them is impossible because there is no universal definition for good or evil. Like someone else said, the bible defines evil as disobeying God. In a world created by God with no Evil present we have a situation where everyone obeys God and will never know how to disobey him. Free will is non-existent. Just because the people would be ignorant of being disobediant doesn't mean the choice of being disobediant is irrelevant.

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The breakdown occurs when you come to a simple cross-road in someone's life where they commit an act of good (or in this universe it would be simply any act because all acts would be good). How exactly would you stop said person from doing the opposite?

Why does this possible universe have to have opposites? What is the opposite of 'grape flavored'?

I didn't say everything had an opposite. "Grape flavoured" is not a life choice or even an action. When making decisions in life there are almost always multiple sets of opposite choices that apply to that decision. For a God to remove just one of these options deliberately is removing free will. And let's not forget that God has always existed, he has no begining or end. We know God is aware of evil because he created all things (we can assume for this discussion that evil exists at least in God's realm. If it doesn't then the whole debate is null and void because all one would have to do is imagine a universe ruled by a God who never created evil - but that's not the point of this discussion) What this means is that this world he creates would require him to lay down the rules. For him to actively create a world where evil is an impossibitly knowing full well that he could just as easily create one with evil, means he is deliberately taking away the free will of the beings inhabiting that world. This is really very basic religion theory - it's even explained in the Bible as far as I know.

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let's use a simple example: A man walks down a street and sees a lady drop her purse unawares. Let's say in our definition of good, picking up the purse and giving it to the lady is a good act. If the man has been made in such a way that he does not even think about keeping the purse then he has no free-will. He is programed to act a certain way.

The purse implies financial loss or gain and thus potential harm. An all-powerful all-knowing God who created the universe, physics, etc. should have created a world without potential for harm. Since I am not omniscient, I can't describe a perfect world.
However, the first idea of not being harmed makes me think of the tin-man from X-men. ;)
It has to be possible if he can create natural law and is omnipotent. Omniscience may play a role too for comparing all that could be.

To create a world with no potential for harm is possible. But to then fill this world with sentient beings created in one's own image and still remove all potential for harm is removing their free will. I chose the purse example because it was simple and had two very clear and distinctive choices for the man to make. There are infinite numbers of other situations that a being could be in that would all have sets of opposite choices. Are you suggesting that God create a world where for every possible situtation a being finds themself in there are only half the choices? I know we are limited by our own simple minds but I'm not convinced that you could create a world where, for example, upon coming across, say, a door way, a being would not be able to choose between going through it or, I don't know, walking a different path. You may argue that if there was no potential for the being's actions to harm another being then it wouldn't matter what choice the being made. If that was the case then it means God has a direct infulence on every being making sure they can never harm each-other - A.K.A.: No free will.

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Take a real world example. In a computer game the enemy A.I. may be programmed in such a way that they can calculate lots of different ways of attacking you but they simply do not have the capacity to "not kill you". They have no free will. A world without evil is not a world with free-will. You can't define it for starters and you can't prevent people from doing the opposite of good without taking away their free will.

 This example is reversed in glorifying evil rather than extinguishing it, but it is still very useful. In this case, consider this question: What if it was fundamentally impossible for the enemy to inflict damage? ...A world where nobody would understand what 'pain' means, becuase nobody could cause it. Once again, common experience of this world inhibits imagination of such a different world.

I think I've covered this already but further to what I've already said: If it is fundamentally impossible for the enemy to inflict damage then that's simply a different set of programming. Same applies as before. Free will is not there.
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Applying physics to philosophy doesn't work like when one tries to apply it to religion or FET for that matter.

Do you mean "physics", or "rationalism and logic"? The two main branches of philosophy are that of rationalism and empiricism and a very large portion of famous philosophers were rationalists.
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I meant physics.

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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #158 on: February 23, 2008, 06:33:38 AM »
So God cannot create beings that can't be harmed? Now he doesn't sound omnipotent.

I didn't apply physics to philosophy except in the case that according to many religions that fit these premises, he created the laws of physics.

-Sorry I haven't been back in a while. Gabe got a one day ban for bumping a thread in debate/discussion, and we share the computer.
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

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divito the truthist

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Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #159 on: February 23, 2008, 06:41:11 AM »
Describing them is impossible because there is no universal definition for good or evil.

Which is why long ago, this thought-experiment perished in a heap of Midnight's dung.
Our existentialist, relativist, nihilist, determinist, fascist, eugenicist moderator hath returned.
Quote from: Fortuna
objectively good

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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #160 on: February 23, 2008, 07:06:40 AM »
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No definition is universal. In the sense that the bible or religion sets attributes to God (like omnibenevolence) those same concepts of good/evil are used and considered. Describing them perfectly with words is the obstacle.
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

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Kasroa Is Gone

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Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #161 on: February 23, 2008, 09:42:48 AM »
So God cannot create beings that can't be harmed? Now he doesn't sound omnipotent.

I didn't apply physics to philosophy except in the case that according to many religions that fit these premises, he created the laws of physics.

-Sorry I haven't been back in a while. Gabe got a one day ban for bumping a thread in debate/discussion, and we share the computer.

Where did I say he couldn't create humans that couldn't be harmed?

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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #162 on: February 23, 2008, 01:44:42 PM »
I don't think you did, but I accidentally connected some earlier ideas in my head.
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But to then fill this world with sentient beings created in one's own image and still remove all potential for harm is removing their free will.
Consider that if humans (better yet, all life) couldn't be harmed emotionally, financially, physically, or otherwise, the option for harming others is nonexistent.
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

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Kasroa Is Gone

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Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #163 on: February 23, 2008, 02:05:16 PM »
Yes I know I can imagine that but if God were to create such a world or even create such a universe then he is meddling with nature by not allowing such things. Meddling with the nature he created yes but meddling none the less. Unless you have Heavens and a God where such things have never existed and never will but we're talking about our God and his Heavens I would assume.

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Althalus

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Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #164 on: February 23, 2008, 02:41:54 PM »
Yeah yeah.. you assassinate my character then I assassinate yours, it's a vicious circle.  Let's see who flips out this time ;)
I recall commenting on your lack of understanding of the parable of the fall of the man/mankind, not on your character. You attempted to characterize me a religious zealot to invalidate my claims.

I never said I knew what God did or didn't do.. that's your department.
I am making the argument that the actions of God as they appear in Genesis are justified. You have also said that you know a lot more then me, so you could be saying that you do know that.

So God is emotionally unstable too?  Do you realize how ridiculous that is? He knew what was going to happen, then he let it happen, then he punished them for it.  He set them up,  because it's all part of the plan,  right?  So why'd he get mad, if that was what was supposed to happen?
Does God feel emotion, yes. Is God emotionally unstable, no. Read Genesis 3: 1-3, God warned them to not disobey him, and that if they disobeyed him, they would die. Because God is not a liar, he kept true to his word, and punished them, making them mortal. God did not set anyone up because every single person has sinned, it is their own fault.

Are you equating yourself with God now? How is your emotional response to an inevitability relevant to how god reacted?
Why was the reaction emotional? I should have addressed this when you first said it, but it doesn't actually say that God became angry, only that he punished them for sinning.

So God cannot create beings that can't be harmed? Now he doesn't sound omnipotent.
He could but why would He? We learn from our mistakes. If we could never make mistakes we could never learn from them.

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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #165 on: February 23, 2008, 04:04:14 PM »
Yes I know I can imagine that but if God were to create such a world or even create such a universe then he is meddling with nature by not allowing such things. Meddling with the nature he created yes but meddling none the less. Unless you have Heavens and a God where such things have never existed and never will but we're talking about our God and his Heavens I would assume.

"Meddling with nature by not allowing things"? He doesn't allow us to break any laws of physics what-so-ever. The remaining options here still leave room for free will.

What do you even mean by meddling? If he created nature without evil from the start would you consider that meddling? I may be wrong, but it seems to me that you think 'meddling' is any different nature than the one you know right now.

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He could but why would He? We learn from our mistakes. If we could never make mistakes we could never learn from them.
You say he would not because it wouldn't let us learn?
Learning is a terrestrial quality. To what end does learning help in the afterlife? Why not give gift of wisdom and pure spirit in this world? This seems too speculative to base a logical argument.

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Is God emotionally unstable, no.
umm... how do you know?
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

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Kasroa Is Gone

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Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #166 on: February 24, 2008, 02:21:49 AM »
Yes meddling with nature. He would choose to leave evil out of the equation for no other reason than to stop people carrying it out.

It's very simple if we are both making the same assumptions: First, evil exists. Second, God can create a universe with evil or one without it.

So it follows logically that if he creates a universe without evil then all inhabitants do not have free will because although evil exists they will never have the choice to carry it out.

You said it yourself "the remaining options". So God removes certain options thus he removes free will. It's just logic and common sense you don't even have to delve in to the philosophy or the theology of the matter.

Also ask any theist they will tell you that this is covered in the Bible. It's an old debate and there is only one logical conclusion: If God wanted humans to have free will and choose to serve him then he had to provide them with all choices otherwise we are slaves whether we are ignorant of evil or not.

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Althalus

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Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #167 on: February 24, 2008, 02:39:47 AM »
Quote from: Althalus
He could but why would He? We learn from our mistakes. If we could never make mistakes we could never learn from them.
You say he would not because it wouldn't let us learn?
Learning is a terrestrial quality. To what end does learning help in the afterlife? Why not give gift of wisdom and pure spirit in this world? This seems too speculative to base a logical argument.
Your whole argument is speculation from top to bottom.
"A world were can make choices but they never harm anyone!" ie, no important choices.

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Is God emotionally unstable, no.
umm... how do you know?
Because there is no evidence to support that claim. God does things which would require great intellect.

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #168 on: February 24, 2008, 02:21:22 PM »
Yeah yeah.. you assassinate my character then I assassinate yours, it's a vicious circle.  Let's see who flips out this time ;)
I recall commenting on your lack of understanding of the parable of the fall of the man/mankind, not on your character. You attempted to characterize me a religious zealot to invalidate my claims.
You are a religious zealot in these debates..

I completely understand the parable, my claim is that it doesn't make sense.  You're still overly sensitive when it comes to this god stuff, or you wouldn't be slinging veiled insults.

I never said I knew what God did or didn't do.. that's your department.
I am making the argument that the actions of God as they appear in Genesis are justified. You have also said that you know a lot more then me, so you could be saying that you do know that.

What?  Is Genesis a parable or is a true story?  Make up your mind. 

So God is emotionally unstable too?  Do you realize how ridiculous that is? He knew what was going to happen, then he let it happen, then he punished them for it.  He set them up,  because it's all part of the plan,  right?  So why'd he get mad, if that was what was supposed to happen?
Does God feel emotion, yes. Is God emotionally unstable, no. Read Genesis 3: 1-3, God warned them to not disobey him, and that if they disobeyed him, they would die. Because God is not a liar, he kept true to his word, and punished them, making them mortal. God did not set anyone up because every single person has sinned, it is their own fault.


He set them up because he knew they would sin.  He knew they would eat from the tree, and he let Satan (or whoever that snake was) tempt them, when they didn't know the difference between right and wrong.  Then he cursed them to die.

Are you equating yourself with God now? How is your emotional response to an inevitability relevant to how god reacted?
Why was the reaction emotional? I should have addressed this when you first said it, but it doesn't actually say that God became angry, only that he punished them for sinning.

The bible refers to god's anger many times.. but that is not the point, you compared how you might react to how god might react.  God is supposed to be the great all knowing one here, not you.  Humans are made to react emotionally.   We're made in his image though.. so if he overreacts to shit, why shouldn't we?   
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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Althalus

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Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #169 on: February 24, 2008, 04:42:26 PM »
Yeah yeah.. you assassinate my character then I assassinate yours, it's a vicious circle.  Let's see who flips out this time ;)
I recall commenting on your lack of understanding of the parable of the fall of the man/mankind, not on your character. You attempted to characterize me a religious zealot to invalidate my claims.
You are a religious zealot in these debates..

I completely understand the parable, my claim is that it doesn't make sense.  You're still overly sensitive when it comes to this god stuff, or you wouldn't be slinging veiled insults.
Anyone who makes an argument for a religion is a religious fanatic? Thats news to me. You say I'm insulting you immediately after you call me a zealot. This is called hypocrisy.

I never said I knew what God did or didn't do.. that's your department.
I am making the argument that the actions of God as they appear in Genesis are justified. You have also said that you know a lot more then me, so you could be saying that you do know that.
What? Is Genesis a parable or is a true story? Make up your mind.
A parable is a true story. Whether or not the actions described in the story took place, its meaning is just as true.

So God is emotionally unstable too?  Do you realize how ridiculous that is? He knew what was going to happen, then he let it happen, then he punished them for it.  He set them up,  because it's all part of the plan,  right?  So why'd he get mad, if that was what was supposed to happen?
Does God feel emotion, yes. Is God emotionally unstable, no. Read Genesis 3: 1-3, God warned them to not disobey him, and that if they disobeyed him, they would die. Because God is not a liar, he kept true to his word, and punished them, making them mortal. God did not set anyone up because every single person has sinned, it is their own fault.
He set them up because he knew they would sin.  He knew they would eat from the tree, and he let Satan (or whoever that snake was) tempt them, when they didn't know the difference between right and wrong.Then he cursed them to die.
I know the sun will burn out in several billion years. "I set up the sun!" The two statements do not follow.

Are you equating yourself with God now? How is your emotional response to an inevitability relevant to how god reacted?
Why was the reaction emotional? I should have addressed this when you first said it, but it doesn't actually say that God became angry, only that he punished them for sinning.

The bible refers to god's anger many times.. but that is not the point, you compared how you might react to how god might react.  God is supposed to be the great all knowing one here, not you. Humans are made to react emotionally. We're made in his image though.. so if he overreacts to shit, why shouldn't we?
The bible refers to Gods wrath, which is divine chastisement.

Consider a few passages where God is said to hate something:
  • How do these nations serve their gods, that I also may do likewise?' 31 "You shall not behave thus toward the Lord your God, for every abominable act which the Lord hates they have done for their gods; for they even burn their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods. (Deut 12)
  • The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, And the one who loves violence His soul hates.(Ps 11.5)
  • There are six things which the Lord hates, Yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: 17 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, And hands that shed innocent blood, 18 A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that run rapidly to evil, 19 A false witness who utters lies, And one who spreads strife among brothers.(Prov 6.16ff)
  • Says the Lord. "I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams, And the fat of fed cattle. And I take no pleasure in the blood of bulls, lambs, or goats. 12 "When you come to appear before Me, Who requires of you this trampling of My courts? 13 "Bring your worthless offerings no longer, Incense is an abomination to Me. New moon and sabbath, the calling of assemblies-I cannot endure iniquity and the solemn assembly. 14 "I hate your new moon festivals and your appointed feasts, They have become a burden to Me. I am weary of bearing them. 15 "So when you spread out your hands in prayer, I will hide My eyes from you, Yes, even though you multiply prayers, I will not listen. Your hands are covered with blood. 16 "Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; Remove the evil of your deeds from My sight. Cease to do evil, 17 Learn to do good; Seek justice, Reprove the ruthless; Defend the orphan, Plead for the widow (Is 1)
  • "For I, the LORD, love justice; I hate robbery and iniquity. (Is 61.8)
  • I hate, I reject your festivals, Nor do I delight in your solemn assemblies. 22 "Even though you offer up to Me burnt offerings and your grain offerings, I will not accept them; And I will not even look at the peace offerings of your fatlings. 23 "Take away from Me the noise of your songs; I will not even listen to the sound of your harps. 24 "But let justice roll down like waters And righteousness like an ever-flowing stream. (Amos 5.21)
  • These are the things which you should do: speak the truth to one another; judge with truth and judgment for peace in your gates. 17 'Also let none of you devise evil in your heart against another, and do not love perjury; for all these are what I hate,' declares the Lord." (Zech 8.16)
  • Take heed then, to your spirit, and let no one deal treacherously against the wife of your youth. 16 "For I hate divorce," says the Lord, the God of Israel, "and him who covers his garment with wrong," says the Lord of hosts. "So take heed to your spirit, that you do not deal treacherously." (Mal 2.15)
  • Then say to the household of the king of Judah, 'Hear the word of the Lord,O house of David, thus says the Lord: 12 "Administer justice every morning; And deliver the person who has been robbed from the power of his oppressor That My wrath may not go forth like fire And burn with none to extinguish it, Because of the evil of their deeds. (Jer 21.11)
  • Then the word of the Lord came to Zechariah saying, 9 "Thus has the Lord of hosts said, 'Dispense true justice, and practice kindness and compassion each to his brother; 10 and do not oppress the widow or the orphan, the stranger or the poor; and do not devise evil in your hearts against one another.' 11 "But they refused to pay attention, and turned a stubborn shoulder and stopped their ears from hearing. 12 "And they made their hearts like flint so that they could not hear the law and the words which the Lord of hosts had sent by His Spirit through the former prophets; therefore great wrath came from the Lord of hosts. 13 "And it came about that just as He called and they would not listen, so they called and I would not listen," says the Lord of hosts; 14 "but I scattered them with a storm wind among all the nations whom they have not known. Thus the land is desolated behind them, so that no one went back and forth, for they made the pleasant land desolate." (Zech 7.8ff)

So when you say that God hates, you are right, God hates treachery, violence, cruelty, hypocrisy, he hates injustice. When God acts, it is not out of emotional irrationality or out of jealousy, it is because God is fulfilling his promise to uphold justice. To do anything less would be to make God a liar.

God is supposed to be the great all knowing one here, not you. Humans are made to react emotionally. We're made in his image though.. so if he overreacts to shit, why shouldn't we?
You've answered your own question. Only God can judge, because only God is all knowing. We can only follow His word.

Quote from: James 5:8-10 (New International Version)
    8 You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord's coming is near.

    9 Don't grumble against each other, brothers, or you will be judged. The Judge is standing at the door!

    10 Brothers, as an example of patience in the face of suffering, take the prophets who spoke in the name of the Lord.

(Way) More on this:
http://www.christian-thinktank.com/whyjust.html
http://www.christian-thinktank.com/madgod.html

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Benocrates

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Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #170 on: February 24, 2008, 08:46:07 PM »
There's way too much psychological analyzation of a creature described in a book written thousands of years after the supposed creation of the world. Let's all remember how ridiculous it is to extrapolate specific meanings and intentions from the bible as well as ignoring the ones about hair length and stoning adulterous, etc. Nobody is trying to figure out what Apollo would say about all this, we all know thats a fairy tale.
Quote from: President Barack Obama
Pot had helped
Get the fuck over it.

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Althalus

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Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #171 on: February 25, 2008, 12:55:47 AM »
I thought you would be the last to pull this crap Benocrates.

Quote from: John 8:7 (New International Version)
"If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."
An end to the death sentence.

Quote from: Matthew 5:17-18
17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
Here accomplished means fulfill. Jesus fulfilled the law by living a perfect life  and following all of the mosaic law. Now Christians don't have to sweat the stuff about food and hairstyles because Christians are not bound by the mosaic law.

Nobody is trying to figure out what Apollo would say about all this, we all know thats a fairy tale.
We were arguing about the character of Abraham's God. I was showing through the words of the Abrahamic God and His followers that He is not petty or emotionally irrational. Be amazed at electron valences in your own thread.

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Benocrates

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Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #172 on: February 25, 2008, 04:16:20 AM »
Fair enough, I'll go back to the real world of evidence and reason. I just am amazed at the yahweh followers and their anthrapamorphisation of him/her/it (whatever suits the argument at the time). Isn't the fact that nobody believes in the Homeric panthian or the myriad of other dead gods some kind of proof that they are all bullshit. Theres nothing special about your god, no matter how much you debate his intentions. Hopefully you'll decide he's benevolent, more new testament instead of that nasty old testament ass hole.
Quote from: President Barack Obama
Pot had helped
Get the fuck over it.

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Althalus

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Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #173 on: February 25, 2008, 07:43:17 AM »
Lol, non sequiturs. The Homeric Gods are clearly fictional because they only existed to explain phenomena the Greeks could not explain, and were rendered obsolete by the advent of science.

Theres nothing special about your god, no matter how much you debate his intentions. Hopefully you'll decide he's benevolent, more new testament instead of that nasty old testament ass hole.
Again, lol. The first sentence is obviously untrue because a difference in intention means a difference in character. Every God of any culture has it own differences, although they often serve similar functions. To deny that means that you have either fallen prey to the New Atheist dogma or to the wonderful Canadian fantasy of absolute cultural equality. I'll start slow for the uneducated such as yourself.

Types of Religious Systems
Animism/Spiritualism - Everything is populated by mysterious spirits.
Polytheism - Divine Beings involve themselves in everyday events and phenomena.
Philosophical - Examples include Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, and Sikhism, some have revealed truth and divine beings, some do not.
Monotheism - One God, omni-4.

Here we've already shown that the Christian God is only like two others, the Jewish God of the Torah and the Islamic God of Allah, Christians claim theirs is identical with the Jewish God, Muslims claim the other two are the results of scriptural corruption. All three posit a divine lawgiver that issues edicts that are authoritative for both nature and man. In Judaism, the laws apply to Gods chosen people, in Christianity and Judaism they apply to everyone.

Quote from: 1 Thessalonians 5:21
Test Everything. Hold on to the good.

Quote from: Matthew 22:37
Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'"

But Christianity is different from Judaism and Islam because it is not concerned primarily with law, but with creed, how man and God relate. The highest discipline in Christianity is that of theologian, while in Islam and Judaism the highest discipline is jurisprudence. The Christian theologian is charged with using reason to understand the ways of God. No other religion does this because no other religion is called to. But why does Christianity do this.

Simply put, Christianity is founded in reason.

Quote from: John 1:1-3
1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2  He was with God in the beginning.
3  Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
4  In him was life, and that life was the light of men.
5  The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.
The Greek word used here foe 'Word' is Logos, which means not only 'word' but also thought, speech, account, meaning, reason, proportion, principle, standard and logic. Among religions Christianities distinguishing figure is its emphasis on reason, because Christians have always defined themselves as followers of The Word, God, Reason, Logic, Truth, made flesh in Jesus Christ.

Quote from: Pope Benedick XVI
From the beginning, Christianity has understood itself as the religion of the Logos, as the religion according to reason...It has always defined men, all men without distinction, as creatures and images of God, proclaiming for them...the same dignity. In this connection, the Enlightenment is of Christian origin and it is no accident that it was born precisely and exclusively in the realm of the Christian faith....It was and is the merit of the Enlightenment to have again proposed these original values of Christianity and of having given back to reason its own voice... Today, this should be precisely [Christianity's] philosophical strength, in so far as the problem is whether the world comes from the irrational, and reason is not other than a 'sub-product,' on occasion even harmful of its development—or whether the world comes from reason, and is, as a consequence, its criterion and goal...In the so necessary dialogue between secularists and Catholics, we Christians must be very careful to remain faithful to this fundamental line: to live a faith that comes from the Logos, from creative reason, and that, because of this, is also open to all that is truly rational.

There are numerous other differences between the character of the Christian God and others, pagan gods are simply human beings writ large, spending their days drinking and eating and fighting and screwing, the nature of the Christian God is radically different then that of man. In fact, we cant even imagine what he looks like.

Quote from: Exodus 33:20
But he said, "You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!"

Quote from: Acts 17:29
"Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man."

Quote from: Romans 1:22-23
Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

God is so holy that He cannot even be tempted.
Quote from: Psalms 77:13
Thy way, O God, is holy; What god is great like our God?
Quote from: James 1:13
Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.

Unlike every other religion in the world Christianity recognizes that man can never be good enough to reach God's level, so God lowered himself to the level of man. God became man, and assumed the burden of man's sins. In every other religion man must earn his place in heaven or nirvana through his good works, in Christianity salvation is the gift of God. The only person who we know to be in heaven is the thief on the cross right of side of Jesus during the crucifixion.

Quote from: Luke 23:39-43 (New International Version)

    39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!

    40 But the other criminal rebuked him. Don't you fear God, he said, since you are under the same sentence?

    41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.

    42 Then he said, Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.

    43 Jesus answered him, I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.

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Benocrates

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Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #174 on: February 25, 2008, 09:24:59 PM »
Quote
Lol, non sequiturs. The Homeric Gods are clearly fictional because they only existed to explain phenomena the Greeks could not explain, and were rendered obsolete by the advent of science.

I really don't see much difference here between the Homeric gods and any conception of Yahweh. I say that the Homeric gods are silly because they attempted to explain scientific truths that are now clearly false, I also say the same about the Abrahamics. The biblical account of creation (age of the earth, ancestral lineage, etc) and natural phenomenon (world wide flood, parting of the red sea, etc) are clearly scientifically verifiable facts that have been verified as false. The earth is more than 6000 years old (don't give me the argument about the ambiguity of the concept of 7 days, its absurd and pure conjecture), life and man did not miraculously pop into existence, and evidence for world wide floods are weak at best and are post hoc arguments, not scientific examination.

Quote
Again, lol. The first sentence is obviously untrue because a difference in intention means a difference in character. Every God of any culture has it own differences, although they often serve similar functions. To deny that means that you have either fallen prey to the New Atheist dogma or to the wonderful Canadian fantasy of absolute cultural equality. I'll start slow for the uneducated such as yourself.

Types of Religious Systems
Animism/Spiritualism - Everything is populated by mysterious spirits.
Polytheism - Divine Beings involve themselves in everyday events and phenomena.
Philosophical - Examples include Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, and Sikhism, some have revealed truth and divine beings, some do not.
Monotheism - One God, omni-4.

Here we've already shown that the Christian God is only like two others, the Jewish God of the Torah and the Islamic God of Allah, Christians claim theirs is identical with the Jewish God, Muslims claim the other two are the results of scriptural corruption. All three posit a divine lawgiver that issues edicts that are authoritative for both nature and man. In Judaism, the laws apply to Gods chosen people, in Christianity and Judaism they apply to everyone

     I was not implying that I felt that all religions held the same beliefs or followed a similar doctrine; I was implying there is no more truth to your god than there is in any other. The fact that two major sects with multiplue sub-sects can develop that radically differ relying on the same book seems to me to indicate the lack of truth probability in any one of them. To say that a Christian conception of god is this and a Jewish is that is all selective readings from unverifiable truth claiming books. No matter what character you with to believe your god exhibits it brings you no closer to any degree of truth other than an exercise in moral philosophy.

   Your moral philosophy you apply to your conception of Yahweh may be excellent and close to the realities of life but you can't justify that philosophy with a supernatural god. All religious faiths have been creatures of man, sometimes beautiful and sometimes horrible. No matter how much they claim to be divinely inspired they are human and fallible,

Quote
But Christianity is different from Judaism and Islam because it is not concerned primarily with law, but with creed, how man and God relate. The highest discipline in Christianity is that of theologian, while in Islam and Judaism the highest discipline is jurisprudence. The Christian theologian is charged with using reason to understand the ways of God. No other religion does this because no other religion is called to. But why does Christianity do this.

Simply put, Christianity is founded in reason.

   I was fine with everything up to the last line. To say that Christianity approaches their theological decisions based on reason is very different than saying they are founded on reason, We can't forget what the basis of the Christian religion is, the validity of the bible and the miracles. And unproven although scientifically verifiable claims. If the claims of the bible were true and god can manipulate physical laws on earth there must have been evidence, everything has a consiquence. The only other option is if this god hid all the evidence and made it harder to believe to test your will or some other nonsense. Christianity may use reason but they are founded on faith without evidence. You use evidence as a criteria for everything else in your life, but somehow not when it comes to bible interpretation. And the fact that anyone can pick and chose acceptable bible verses is clearly absurd, where do you get the criteria from? What is divine word and what is not? Its almost too easy to attack the bible.

Quote
The Greek word used here foe 'Word' is Logos, which means not only 'word' but also thought, speech, account, meaning, reason, proportion, principle, standard and logic. Among religions Christianities distinguishing figure is its emphasis on reason, because Christians have always defined themselves as followers of The Word, God, Reason, Logic, Truth, made flesh in Jesus Christ.

    When you refer to the logos you enter an area that I have a particular interest in and have actually educated myself in. Believe it or not, I am educated in some things. The concept of the logos is that the world has some kind of structure, an overarching law. This includes the physical laws such as gravitation, newtons laws, etc. Reason is a function of the logos and not necessarily a characteristic of the logos. Reason involves the principle of non contradiction and causality. When the Greeks talked about the logos they were talking about the way the world was, how things worked and what could be expected in the future.

     The difference between the Greeks and the Moderns is that they believed the logos was basicly at the mercy of powerful gods that fought over the world. In Plato's Euthrphro the point that piety is what is dear to the gods means that the gods control the logos. They fight and the most powerfull ones can control the world. During these battles devious gods cause shit to go crazy on earth or help out man in different ways. In the modern abrahamic worldview it is Yahweh that controls the logos, changing it when he wants the world to change but mostly staying out of things.

    To say that the Christian faith follows the word aka logos aka reason is the smelliest red herring I've ever heard. Its a semantic argument that lacks an understanding of the concept of logos and reason. Reason is stable because the logos is stable; The world does not change. Our conception of physical laws change but physical laws themselves don't change, and if they did there would be some proof of that. It is non belief that is fueled by reason, it is not an equally justifiable or unjustifiable belief. There is no evidence for any of the religious beliefs, none beyond conjecture and self justified texts.
   
      God does not assert his power in overt ways, demanding obedience yet we tell people he probably would say that. I can't prove to you god doesn't exist, but with understanding that the world seems to work just fine on its own with no deviation ever seen. Evidence that man evolved from apes has been excavated over hundreds of years and those that are open to the truth can see it. Before science these myths and superstitions were all we had, we have more now and don't need blind faith for truth.

Quote
All your biblical verses

    Just to reiterate, I wasn't saying the conception of god by Christians isn't different than Jews, I was saying they have equal validity. God is an intellectually lazy excuse. When Newton couldn't figure out how the solar system stayed balance he said it must be god. We now have an excellent explanation for how this happens and god just got moved further back in the time scale. We can explain pretty much how everything probably happened up to the start of the universe, and here I'll point out that a personal god is much different from a deist kind of prime mover conception. These theories, even the big bang, are not believed because they sound good or they were written by people talking to god. They are written in books that contain evidence, studies, mathmatical work and rational inquiry. Anyone can respond to the publication and if there is enough discord it is taken off the table of legitimacy.

     It sucks but we woke up on a floating orb in a mysterious universe, and we unlike almost all life can reflect upon it. We will never know it all, but we will sure try. The world is a certain way and we see it all the time. Sometimes things are happening that are imperceivable to us either being too big or too small, but they still happen. Just because we can't understand something doesn't mean it must have been created by something beyond our intelligence. The fact that science moves on means that any ending to the equation being filled by god is only a temporary place holder until science comes along. That is the same for all religions, Yahweh, Apollo, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
Quote from: President Barack Obama
Pot had helped
Get the fuck over it.

?

Althalus

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Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #175 on: February 26, 2008, 02:18:42 AM »
Quote
Lol, non sequiturs. The Homeric Gods are clearly fictional because they only existed to explain phenomena the Greeks could not explain, and were rendered obsolete by the advent of science.

I really don't see much difference here between the Homeric gods and any conception of Yahweh. I say that the Homeric gods are silly because they attempted to explain scientific truths that are now clearly false, I also say the same about the Abrahamics. The biblical account of creation (age of the earth, ancestral lineage, etc) and natural phenomenon (world wide flood, parting of the red sea, etc) are clearly scientifically verifiable facts that have been verified as false. The earth is more than 6000 years old (don't give me the argument about the ambiguity of the concept of 7 days, its absurd and pure conjecture), life and man did not miraculously pop into existence, and evidence for world wide floods are weak at best and are post hoc arguments, not scientific examination.
It must be good then, that Genesis is a parable, and has always been understood as such.

Quote
Again, lol. The first sentence is obviously untrue because a difference in intention means a difference in character. Every God of any culture has it own differences, although they often serve similar functions. To deny that means that you have either fallen prey to the New Atheist dogma or to the wonderful Canadian fantasy of absolute cultural equality. I'll start slow for the uneducated such as yourself.

Types of Religious Systems
Animism/Spiritualism - Everything is populated by mysterious spirits.
Polytheism - Divine Beings involve themselves in everyday events and phenomena.
Philosophical - Examples include Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, and Sikhism, some have revealed truth and divine beings, some do not.
Monotheism - One God, omni-4.

Here we've already shown that the Christian God is only like two others, the Jewish God of the Torah and the Islamic God of Allah, Christians claim theirs is identical with the Jewish God, Muslims claim the other two are the results of scriptural corruption. All three posit a divine lawgiver that issues edicts that are authoritative for both nature and man. In Judaism, the laws apply to Gods chosen people, in Christianity and Judaism they apply to everyone

     I was not implying that I felt that all religions held the same beliefs or followed a similar doctrine; I was implying there is no more truth to your god than there is in any other. The fact that two major sects with multiplue sub-sects can develop that radically differ relying on the same book seems to me to indicate the lack of truth probability in any one of them. To say that a Christian conception of god is this and a Jewish is that is all selective readings from unverifiable truth claiming books. No matter what character you with to believe your god exhibits it brings you no closer to any degree of truth other than an exercise in moral philosophy.

   Your moral philosophy you apply to your conception of Yahweh may be excellent and close to the realities of life but you can't justify that philosophy with a supernatural god. All religious faiths have been creatures of man, sometimes beautiful and sometimes horrible. No matter how much they claim to be divinely inspired they are human and fallible,
The differences in the classical notions of the Judaic and Christian God come from the additional information and insight provided by Jesus Christ. There is more truth to the Abrahamic God then Apollo because we can observe that the sun is not a flaming chariot and Apollo is thus absolutely false. And by saying that all Gods are equally false you are saying that they are all false, I doubt that you have taken the time to consider them all. You are also assuming we can know everything, Kant would be quite disappointed in a young philosopher such as yourself.

Quote
But Christianity is different from Judaism and Islam because it is not concerned primarily with law, but with creed, how man and God relate. The highest discipline in Christianity is that of theologian, while in Islam and Judaism the highest discipline is jurisprudence. The Christian theologian is charged with using reason to understand the ways of God. No other religion does this because no other religion is called to. But why does Christianity do this.

Simply put, Christianity is founded in reason.

   I was fine with everything up to the last line. To say that Christianity approaches their theological decisions based on reason is very different than saying they are founded on reason, We can't forget what the basis of the Christian religion is, the validity of the bible and the miracles. And unproven although scientifically verifiable claims. If the claims of the bible were true and god can manipulate physical laws on earth there must have been evidence, everything has a consiquence. The only other option is if this god hid all the evidence and made it harder to believe to test your will or some other nonsense. Christianity may use reason but they are founded on faith without evidence. You use evidence as a criteria for everything else in your life, but somehow not when it comes to bible interpretation. And the fact that anyone can pick and chose acceptable bible verses is clearly absurd, where do you get the criteria from? What is divine word and what is not? Its almost too easy to attack the bible.
Christianity is centered around God, which is a trinity of three persons of one essence, the second of whom is viewed as identical with The Truth, which all truth serves. To follow Jesus is to follow the truth. The miracles produced evidence, thousands saw them. It is easy to have a shallow and misguided understanding of the bible, perhaps you should examine it in depth.

Quote
The Greek word used here foe 'Word' is Logos, which means not only 'word' but also thought, speech, account, meaning, reason, proportion, principle, standard and logic. Among religions Christianities distinguishing figure is its emphasis on reason, because Christians have always defined themselves as followers of The Word, God, Reason, Logic, Truth, made flesh in Jesus Christ.

    When you refer to the logos you enter an area that I have a particular interest in and have actually educated myself in. Believe it or not, I am educated in some things. The concept of the logos is that the world has some kind of structure, an overarching law. This includes the physical laws such as gravitation, newtons laws, etc. Reason is a function of the logos and not necessarily a characteristic of the logos. Reason involves the principle of non contradiction and causality. When the Greeks talked about the logos they were talking about the way the world was, how things worked and what could be expected in the future.

     The difference between the Greeks and the Moderns is that they believed the logos was basicly at the mercy of powerful gods that fought over the world. In Plato's Euthrphro the point that piety is what is dear to the gods means that the gods control the logos. They fight and the most powerfull ones can control the world. During these battles devious gods cause shit to go crazy on earth or help out man in different ways. In the modern abrahamic worldview it is Yahweh that controls the logos, changing it when he wants the world to change but mostly staying out of things.

    To say that the Christian faith follows the word aka logos aka reason is the smelliest red herring I've ever heard. Its a semantic argument that lacks an understanding of the concept of logos and reason. Reason is stable because the logos is stable; The world does not change. Our conception of physical laws change but physical laws themselves don't change, and if they did there would be some proof of that. It is non belief that is fueled by reason, it is not an equally justifiable or unjustifiable belief. There is no evidence for any of the religious beliefs, none beyond conjecture and self justified texts.
   
      God does not assert his power in overt ways, demanding obedience yet we tell people he probably would say that. I can't prove to you god doesn't exist, but with understanding that the world seems to work just fine on its own with no deviation ever seen. Evidence that man evolved from apes has been excavated over hundreds of years and those that are open to the truth can see it. Before science these myths and superstitions were all we had, we have more now and don't need blind faith for truth.
Why would the Christian use of the word be identical? God is eternally unchanging, so the logos is stable, so reason is stable. I have never argued against evolution or for angels pushing around planets. On that subject tell me exactly where the universe came from if it works fine without God. And why would God create a universe that requires constant intervention? If you were to design a computer to run a multitude of important algorithims, would you make it so that you had to reassemble parts of it every other minute?

Quote
All your biblical verses

    Just to reiterate, I wasn't saying the conception of god by Christians isn't different than Jews, I was saying they have equal validity. God is an intellectually lazy excuse. When Newton couldn't figure out how the solar system stayed balance he said it must be god. We now have an excellent explanation for how this happens and god just got moved further back in the time scale. We can explain pretty much how everything probably happened up to the start of the universe, and here I'll point out that a personal god is much different from a deist kind of prime mover conception. These theories, even the big bang, are not believed because they sound good or they were written by people talking to god. They are written in books that contain evidence, studies, mathmatical work and rational inquiry. Anyone can respond to the publication and if there is enough discord it is taken off the table of legitimacy.

     It sucks but we woke up on a floating orb in a mysterious universe, and we unlike almost all life can reflect upon it. We will never know it all, but we will sure try. The world is a certain way and we see it all the time. Sometimes things are happening that are imperceivable to us either being too big or too small, but they still happen. Just because we can't understand something doesn't mean it must have been created by something beyond our intelligence. The fact that science moves on means that any ending to the equation being filled by god is only a temporary place holder until science comes along. That is the same for all religions, Yahweh, Apollo, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
Oh, now this is just ridiculous. Newton said that the universe was so beautiful in its motions that only God could have made it. You have said that you are in awe of nature, this awe of nature originated in the Christian idea that we could use science to interrogate nature to see Gods natural laws. Newton himself, one of the greatest scientists, was a Christian occultist. Francis Bacon, inventor of the scientific method, wrote long essays about Christianity. Gregor Mendel, the father of genetics, was an Augustinian priest. The big bang was first hypothesized by a Catholic priest, many scientists refused to believe it for as long as they could because they knew a universe with a beginning must have been created.  All these men had a deep devotion to God and to science, because they could accept both with no difficulty.

Regarding proof, if you had absolute proof of God, you would have no choice but to accept Him, and God would in effect be enforcing himself on you. God has given you reason to consider His works and His word, and it is no ones fault but your own if you make the wrong choice.

More on this later.

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cmdshft

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Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #176 on: February 26, 2008, 06:56:17 AM »
omg i fukken hate scrolling shut up

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Benocrates

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Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #177 on: February 26, 2008, 11:31:46 AM »
Quote
It must be good then, that Genesis is a parable, and has always been understood as such.

   First off, far too many people believe in Genesis as literal fact or at least believe the world was created about 6-12 thousand years or whatever biblical investigation is involved. The fact of a creator and manipulative god is a scientific one and should be verifiable beyond personal conjecture. Have you ever seen the Monty Python movie Life of Brian? That is the kind of suggestibility that must have been present in a world where the natural workings were so unknown they must have been designed.

    If you say that Genesis, the account for the beginning of the world is no more than a parable then how could you claim anything claimed in the bible actually happened? Where did Cains wife come from? The book is just riddled with holes and holds as much verifiability than any other scriptural texts. There is a man in India right now (I'll find his name if challenged) that claims to perform Jesus like miracles (virgin birth, walk on water, water into wine,etc). One year on his birthday he held a birthday party attended by over a million people. These are people who believe this is the newest messiah, unfortunately not a single miracle has been verified and is no more than Life of Brian-like hysteria.

     Hearsay evidence is all the bible has and all FE theory has too. Its easy to compare the two on here, I'm sure by the intelligent way you've debated you are not a FE proponent. I read some part of a FE book that claimed to have evidence because he watched a ship and it didn't go over the horizon. Clearly either a mistake or manipulation but some people still believe it, proof in evidence must go beyond that. Not to mention the scriptures were written at earliest 6 decades after the evens of Jesus Christ. So all we have is Hearsay (unreliable and highly unscientific) and old beliefs put into writing.

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The differences in the classical notions of the Judaic and Christian God ... You are also assuming we can know everything, Kant would be quite disappointed in a young philosopher such as yourself.

    I agree with everything you said about the addition of Jesus Christ as a figure in christianity has altered it from J and I. This is great and I support it along with Richard Dawkins when he exclaimed "Atheists for Jesus." Most of what JC taught was amazing moral philosophy and I follow alot of that in my life. You can too but you don't need to accept its biblical authority. It is reason which demands evidence beyond hearsay when it comes to a god hypothesis.

     I see JC just like Socrates in the vein that he didn't write anything but had many followers. There is a constant debate between the real Socrates and the possibly romanticized version in the Platonic and other sparse writings. I honor and respect the portrayal of Socrates for everything he did, but I don't have to accept everything he said as gospel and I don't feel any less enthusiastic because he is not divine. He doesn't have to be given some superior authority to have excellent ideas.

    If reason is any gift of a god then it puts in me a strong lack of belief because there is no facts to latch on to. When Bertrand Russel was asked what he would say to god if he went to heaven and was wrong all along and he said: "I'm sorry your worship, but you simply didn't give us enough evidence." It sucks that there are no easy answers, I wish there was. Oh, and about all the barbs like me being uneducated and Kant being disappointed at me are just really immature. Like, come on, I'm not resulting to backhanded insults even though some things you say enrage me as I'm sure I enrage you. Let's keep a bit of civility without the petty jabs.

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Christianity is centered around God, which is a trinity of three persons of one essence, the second of whom is viewed as identical with The Truth...perhaps you should examine it in depth.

    I understand your conception of the Truth and that you follow it. I do the same, however I discover the Truths out of philosophy and observation. My whole point in the entire debate is that there are no easy answers and you can't just accept that the Truth is defined in an anchient book, no exceptions. I have already discussed that all gods differ in their construct, just like pyramids may be similar in Egypt and South America but they were clearly built differently with different techniques.

    It all comes down to the fact that you have no more credibility with your bible than I do with my copy of Plato's Apology. They are both excellent sources of philosophy and discussions of worldviews but both are products of man. If the bible is the transmitted word of god why is there no mention of any technology that would amaze people who thought a wheelbarrow was as modern as it gets. I know the counter to this is the whole reason thing, but my reason tells me the bible is no authority. What reason do you have for accepting it over the Koran, both claim to hold the Truth and gods words. Thats where reason tells me to open my mind.

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Why would the Christian use of the word be identical? God is eternally unchanging...would you make it so that you had to reassemble parts of it every other minute?

   If you say the logos is unchanging you have to discard all the supposed miracles or whenever god interfeared with the world (mass drowning, famines, disease, JC, etc). There is a very different conception of god being some entity that starts this all off (evolution and even the big bang can be accepted here life you seem to do) and the other conception is a personal god who interfears in the world. I can be much more receptive to the first than the last.

     You acknowledge that the world appears to work as it does, not being constantly operated by a god. To ask me how the world works without god is clearly searching for an easy answer, I don't have it and neither do you! I'm sorry that you have a hard time dealing with the fact that we will never actually know anything but constantly have a better understanding of the world. With the whole Newton example, he figured it all out up until the solar system, then it was too complex for him to understand. That is when he relied on god to fill in the gaps, that is not science that is lazyness. I'm not saying that we can know everything but I'm saying we can try, not just give up and rely on a bigger mind to watch out. It would feel so nice but there just no evidence thats true.

    If you're asking my why god would make a creation that has to be constantly corrected. Well, if we are putting ourselves in a supernaturals shoes then I would ask why is there horrible suffering? Why is a child born with a crippling disease or develop horribly painful sicknesses later in life. A child who has never masturbated (apparently sinful), never told a lie, never harmed another, etc. Why do earthquakes wipe out thousands of people, good hard working people who did no harm to the rocks that crushed them. Obviously we could go on, but you get my point.

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Oh, now this is just ridiculous. Newton said that the universe was so beautiful in its motions that only God could have made it. You have said that you are in awe of nature, this awe of nature originated in the Christian idea that we could use science to interrogate nature to see Gods natural laws. ...and it is no ones fault but your own if you make the wrong choice.

Just read up for my further discussions of Newton but in reference to his Christianity, before Darwin (and even a bit afterward) it would be unreasonable to think of a world without a designer. The more we figured out the origins of species and theoretical mathematics we realised that there are fewer and fewer gaps that we need god to fill. Just because the originators of science were religious means nothing when it comes to their science. They were just too early in the scientific venture to realize the gaps were not divinly sized but small enough to figure out. The more we learn the more we see that a deist conception of god is the only rational one.

   If you want to talk about men of science and their religious belief you can read the multiple surveys of the highest level scientists in the US at least are 80% non religious. Einstein was a deist, most moral philosophers had either a deist or an atheist point of view. To me it comes down to not the defense of a position but the exercise of my reason. You can't accept things just because others do, you have to be able to test them yourselves or do something to prove them wrong. I haven't done the experiments outlined in any science book but if I wanted I could. Thats the difference, there is verifiability in science but absolutely none in religion.  Christianity my use reason to develop worldviews based on biblical scripture but it flies in the face of reason to accept the Truth in that book as absolute. Nothing is absolute, I'm sorry its not easy but its the real Truth.
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Colonel Gaydafi

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Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #178 on: February 26, 2008, 11:37:26 AM »
I only read your first section here Benocrates cos I'm lazy and I'm watching a film but I want to point out the Cain's wife most likely came from the other people living on the earth then. It mentions in the story of Cain and Abel about other people being present on the earth when Cain was sent out to wander around with some weird mark on him. I asked some theologians about this and they all said that it was because God created other humans apart from Adam and Eve so if you were to take the creation story literally you would have to take this into account.
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Benocrates

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Re: Chain Logic and God
« Reply #179 on: February 26, 2008, 11:40:06 AM »
I only read your first section here Benocrates cos I'm lazy and I'm watching a film but I want to point out the Cain's wife most likely came from the other people living on the earth then. It mentions in the story of Cain and Abel about other people being present on the earth when Cain was sent out to wander around with some weird mark on him. I asked some theologians about this and they all said that it was because God created other humans apart from Adam and Eve so if you were to take the creation story literally you would have to take this into account.

The problem I see glaring in that is what evidence is there for this. Its all so convenient, just like the FE UA. Sure, its possible if you accept its truth but there is no evidence that it exists. Why would the bible leave it so incomplete by not explaining this? If there is some kind of evidence I'm not aware of then I'd like to read it.
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