The all-new conspiracy theory!

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fshy94

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Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
« Reply #270 on: April 19, 2008, 01:56:18 PM »
Nice necromancy, but I'd still like answers.
Proof the Earth is round!
http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=19341.0

Quote from: Althalus
The conspiracy has made it impossible to adequately explain FE theory in English.
^^LOL!

Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
« Reply #271 on: May 13, 2008, 09:21:59 AM »
we all would... :(

Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
« Reply #272 on: May 13, 2008, 11:07:00 AM »
I read through this thread, and I think the questions have been adressed rather well.

Tom distinguishes between two types of conspiracies- a conspiracy because the earth is round, and a conspiracy which coincidentally perpetuates the myth of a round earth.  I think his argument is 100% airtight- why would anyone conspire about the geometry of an object?  NASA found a niche, in a belief that people would back, and it doesn't matter to them what the true geometry is.  That doesn't mean the conspiracy doesn't perpetuate RE myths, just that it wasn't specifically designed for that purpose.

Regarding flight time discrepancies, these arguments are not very solid.  To say that pilots or passengers would have noticed....    These are more sociological arguments- "if the earth were flat, then this group of people would act like this".  Not very solid, scientifically.  My "sociological" argument in response is that if there were a valid, clear, physical reason to believe the world is round, somebody would have posted it here long ago.

The jetstream information is very appropriate.  Combine the various jetstreams with the fact that most flight time eta's are wrong (so passengers are used to this), and with the fact that an indisputable FE map has not been created, and with the fact that the GPS system is controlled by space agencies...   and the argument disappears.

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lindelof

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Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
« Reply #273 on: May 13, 2008, 11:19:46 AM »

Regarding flight time discrepancies, these arguments are not very solid.  To say that pilots or passengers would have noticed....    These are more sociological arguments- "if the earth were flat, then this group of people would act like this".  Not very solid, scientifically.  My "sociological" argument in response is that if there were a valid, clear, physical reason to believe the world is round, somebody would have posted it here long ago.

The jetstream information is very appropriate.  Combine the various jetstreams with the fact that most flight time eta's are wrong (so passengers are used to this), and with the fact that an indisputable FE map has not been created, and with the fact that the GPS system is controlled by space agencies...   and the argument disappears.

Dude man, FE theory basically says that flights in the Southern Hemisphere should take like TWICE AS FREAKING LONG people would notice.  You might not notice if your flight was as hour or so longer, but 8 hours longer?  And it doesn't matter what your map is like, the same distortions will still exist, just at different places.

You can postulate some ridiculous system of jet streams.  Or say that everyone on a flight in the southern hemisphere has their memories altered by space aliens or some other huge ad hocery, but that's about it/

Sociological arguments?

People HAVE posted clear arguments that the Earth is round here.  Here's one:



This thread is also one.  My Stars argument is another.  You can probably find quite a few more.

Also, why do you reject "sociological arguments" & than use one?

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markjo

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Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
« Reply #274 on: May 13, 2008, 11:29:00 AM »
Talk about new government conspiracies to hide the true nature of the earth, check out what China wants to do internet based maps:

http://www.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.sina.com.cn%2Fc%2F2008-05-13%2F032513866565s.shtml&hl=en&ie=UTF8&sl=zh-CN&tl=en
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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fshy94

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Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
« Reply #275 on: May 13, 2008, 02:59:12 PM »
Yes I did find evidence on ships. I don't have enough time to analyze all of this though, there's an insane amount of data.

I found this site, but don't have the time to analyze it all. Can someone help out?

http://www.sailwx.info/shiptrack/shiplocations.phtml

Thanks ;D

To make my point, there's a ton of data in there(in fact, its one of my new favorite sites...), and one example is the Oceanographic research ships James Clark Ross, and Nathan B Palmer. They are recorded as having moved 100 RE miles in around 36 hours, and yet in FE, they must have moved around 1000 miles. Or look at CSCL LONGKOU, a container ship, that in RE traveled 350 miles in one day, and yet in FE miles must have traveled approximately 1500 miles per day, approximating a speed of over 60 MPH, an astounding feat for a cargo ship...there's probably tons more, these are just a few that I found within a few minutes research delving in there. There's a load more.



Please allow me to bump this once again, and hope that Dogplatter, or Tom has anything to say on the matter. Username temporarily conceded the point, but still didn't provide me an explanation, saying he was still working on one, so if its ready, he can feel free to speak his mind as well.

Oh, and just to note, China's job on their internet and press irks the hell out of me.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2008, 03:03:55 PM by fshy94 »
Proof the Earth is round!
http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=19341.0

Quote from: Althalus
The conspiracy has made it impossible to adequately explain FE theory in English.
^^LOL!

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Ski

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Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
« Reply #276 on: May 13, 2008, 03:04:37 PM »
I'm guessing they went around something, but not the entire icewall.
"Never think you can turn over any old falsehood without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it." -O.W. Holmes "Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne.."

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fshy94

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Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
« Reply #277 on: May 13, 2008, 03:10:50 PM »
That's not the issue. Please read a little...the issue is not a circumnavigation, the issue is speed. How, if the maps are distorted, and distances are between 3-5x RE predictions at that location (which is undisputed, take a look at the previous arguments there), then how come a cargo ship is travelling at 100+ knots? We know it starts from X and ends at Y at certain times, and that the distances necessitate that speed. Some ship, eh? I've already been over this with airplanes, and the arguments I got were 2000 MPH jetstreams which help the planes, and another conspiracy with the airlines (which just so happen to all be a Satanic conspiracy), who are doing...something...to fool us...nobody says quite what...
Proof the Earth is round!
http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=19341.0

Quote from: Althalus
The conspiracy has made it impossible to adequately explain FE theory in English.
^^LOL!

Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
« Reply #278 on: May 13, 2008, 03:28:30 PM »

Can you be a little more specific?  Where did the ship start and end, what was the start time (and time zone) and end time, and what is the evidence that the travel was as described?

Ships and planes don't take shortcuts over the supposed south pole anyway, they follow the east/west "rings" on the flat earth, so the discrepancy isn't as large as you suggest.  The rings are larger in FE topology than RE, which could result in longer travel time than expected in the southern hemisphere, but the evidence probably supports this (since the Earth is flat).

Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
« Reply #279 on: May 13, 2008, 04:44:53 PM »

Can you be a little more specific?  Where did the ship start and end, what was the start time (and time zone) and end time, and what is the evidence that the travel was as described?

Ships and planes don't take shortcuts over the supposed south pole anyway, they follow the east/west "rings" on the flat earth, so the discrepancy isn't as large as you suggest.  The rings are larger in FE topology than RE, which could result in longer travel time than expected in the southern hemisphere, but the evidence probably supports this (since the Earth is flat).

Can you read a little more carefully?
The distance difference isnt negligible, in FE theory the ships have to travel over FOUR TIMES longer way in some cases. The evidence is contrary, for basically every record at the page. I've tried a couple queries at http://www.sailwx.info/shiptrack/shiplocations.phtml and the ships i saw did not turn weeks late.

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fshy94

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Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
« Reply #280 on: May 13, 2008, 04:54:09 PM »
Are some of you guys incapable of basic reading skills? You've got it reversed, the time taken is much shorter than FE predicts, so using the straight line actually helps you guys, lol. Thanks for making my point though.

FE predicts the flights should take 16 hours, RE predicts 8, and whaddaya know, the planes arrive in...8. Same story for the ships....
Proof the Earth is round!
http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=19341.0

Quote from: Althalus
The conspiracy has made it impossible to adequately explain FE theory in English.
^^LOL!

Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
« Reply #281 on: May 13, 2008, 05:37:20 PM »
Are some of you guys...

I am myself, and noone else.

But reading skills?  Wow, you're 180 degrees on that one:
You've got it reversed, the time taken is much shorter than FE predicts, so using the straight line actually helps you guys, lol. Thanks for making my point though.
That is exactly what I said ("The rings are larger in FE topology than RE").  Kinda hard to have a conversation with you.

FE predicts the flights should take 16 hours, RE predicts 8, and whaddaya know, the planes arrive in...8. Same story for the ships....
Which flight?  Which ship?  Who predicted it, and according to what map?

I looked at the tracks for both ships you mentioned, and they are entirely consistent with a flat earth, as they should be.

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fshy94

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Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
« Reply #282 on: May 13, 2008, 08:17:51 PM »
Try the airplanes before that, the ship one is probably too hard for you. I made the airplane one simple enough for the average five year old. Yes, you said the rings are larger, but you said that plane's don't fly over the pole as if that helped your case, which it clearly doesn't, and you say observable evidence tallies with FE models, which is funny because you clearly haven't read the airplane case...I have flights from South America to South Africa on both sides.
Proof the Earth is round!
http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=19341.0

Quote from: Althalus
The conspiracy has made it impossible to adequately explain FE theory in English.
^^LOL!

Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
« Reply #283 on: May 13, 2008, 09:08:37 PM »
Yes, you said the rings are larger, but you said that plane's don't fly over the pole as if that helped your case, which it clearly doesn't
Yeah, I guess I have to put everything in simple words... think about it for a minute.  FE predicts slightly longer flight times in the southern hemisphere.  If we pretend the Earth is round, and planes flew over the pole, some of the RE flight times would be dramatically shorter.  But they never do, so its going to be that much harder for you to build a case.  And as Tom mentioned, most flights are north/south, which is the same for FE and RE.

which is funny because you clearly haven't read the airplane case.

You mean this one?
JNB    Johannesburg    QF 63    Qantas Airways    10:30 AM    11:09 AM       T-1    Landed
36 min    744    
JNB    Johannesburg    SA 7701^    South African Airways    10:30 AM    11:09 AM       T-1    Landed
36 min    744    

So QF 63 flew from Sydney to Johannesburg in 14.5 hours (actually even that flight was delayed 5%)?  So what?  There isn't a definitive FE map, but even using the one mentioned in this thread (http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/img/fig54.jpg) that doesn't look impossible at all.  Especially when you remember that jet streams can cut travel team in half, a fact which I hope you will not dispute.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2008, 09:10:24 PM by lived_eht_asan »

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fshy94

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Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
« Reply #284 on: May 13, 2008, 09:12:51 PM »
Oh, so there's a new jetstream along that flight route that was recently discovered? And, yes I do dispute your idiotic claim that it can cut travel time in half trans-continentally.

Quote from: WIKI
Within North America, the time needed to fly east across the continent can be decreased by about 30 minutes if a airplane can fly with the jet stream, or increased by more than that amount if it must fly west against it.

Like I calculated, you'd need a jetstream of ridiculous speed. Are you really postulating not only the fastest jet stream in the world, but completely undetectable to meteorologists? Nice.

And, I knew, like Tom, you would point out he 5% late ridiculousness, which is actually quite funny, considering.
Proof the Earth is round!
http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=19341.0

Quote from: Althalus
The conspiracy has made it impossible to adequately explain FE theory in English.
^^LOL!

Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
« Reply #285 on: May 13, 2008, 09:28:05 PM »
And, yes I do dispute your idiotic claim that it can cut travel time in half trans-continentally.

Did you read the article you just quoted?
The very first commercial use of a jet stream, Tokyo to Honolulu:

"It cut the trip time by over one-third"  -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_stream

Like I calculated, you'd need a jetstream of ridiculous speed.

How did you calculate that, considering there isn't an accurate FE map? (and also, ridiculous doesn't fit in most hand-held calculators)

Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
« Reply #286 on: May 14, 2008, 09:32:37 AM »
Jetstream cuts the flight time by 1/3.
The distance is 3 times longer in FE then in RE.
Therefore, the time, USING JETSTREAM, is twice as in RE WITHOUT USING JETSTREAM.
And we can assume that the jetstream usage is calculated in RE time, therefore the time in FE is... THREE TIMES what in RE.
Which clearly is not the case, as 14 hours long flight is only 30 minutes late (while it should be 28 hours late, i think someone would notice)

Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
« Reply #287 on: May 14, 2008, 09:48:05 AM »
Jetstream cuts the flight time by 1/3.
The distance is 3 times longer in FE then in RE.
Therefore, the time, USING JETSTREAM, is twice as in RE WITHOUT USING JETSTREAM.
And we can assume that the jetstream usage is calculated in RE time, therefore the time in FE is... THREE TIMES what in RE.
Which clearly is not the case, as 14 hours long flight is only 30 minutes late (while it should be 28 hours late, i think someone would notice)

Sorry, but I don't accept your premise that "someone would notice".

The only real proof presented here for RE theory is a 14.5 hour flight from Sydney to Johannesburg.  Even given the FE map shown (which has not been accepted), the travel time and distance are extraordinarily ordinary.  So... nothing has been proven.

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lindelof

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Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
« Reply #288 on: May 14, 2008, 10:33:23 AM »
Jetstream cuts the flight time by 1/3.
The distance is 3 times longer in FE then in RE.
Therefore, the time, USING JETSTREAM, is twice as in RE WITHOUT USING JETSTREAM.
And we can assume that the jetstream usage is calculated in RE time, therefore the time in FE is... THREE TIMES what in RE.
Which clearly is not the case, as 14 hours long flight is only 30 minutes late (while it should be 28 hours late, i think someone would notice)

Sorry, but I don't accept your premise that "someone would notice".

The only real proof presented here for RE theory is a 14.5 hour flight from Sydney to Johannesburg.  Even given the FE map shown (which has not been accepted), the travel time and distance are extraordinarily ordinary.  So... nothing has been proven.

Are you seriously saying that if people were on a flight that was supposed to last 14 hours & it lasted 28 hours than no one would notice?

As someone who has traveled distances like that I can safely say that everyone would notice.  Everyone on the plane would notice.  Air traffic controllers would notice.  The pilots would notice.  The people waiting to pick you up at the airport would notice.

Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
« Reply #289 on: May 14, 2008, 11:04:21 AM »
Are you seriously saying that if people were on a flight that was supposed to last 14 hours & it lasted 28 hours than no one would notice?

As someone who has traveled distances like that I can safely say that everyone would notice.  Everyone on the plane would notice.  Air traffic controllers would notice.  The pilots would notice.  The people waiting to pick you up at the airport would notice.

No, I'm saying that in general you can't prove things using "people would notice".  You can form strong opinions, make great assumptions, and hone your thought in the right direction- but not prove things.

And in general, expectations conform to reality, rather than theoretical predictions based on the geometry of the Earth.  If a flight from Sydney to Johannesburg seems to take 14.5 hours most of the time, thats what they'll schedule, and that's what people will expect.  They're not going to make calculations in spherical coordinate space to prove the geometry they are covering.

The flight time and distance covered is the more concrete evidence, and the example provided fits with FE theory.  Which it should, because the EARTH IS FLAT.

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lindelof

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Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
« Reply #290 on: May 14, 2008, 11:21:35 AM »
Are you seriously saying that if people were on a flight that was supposed to last 14 hours & it lasted 28 hours than no one would notice?

As someone who has traveled distances like that I can safely say that everyone would notice.  Everyone on the plane would notice.  Air traffic controllers would notice.  The pilots would notice.  The people waiting to pick you up at the airport would notice.

No, I'm saying that in general you can't prove things using "people would notice".  You can form strong opinions, make great assumptions, and hone your thought in the right direction- but not prove things.

And in general, expectations conform to reality, rather than theoretical predictions based on the geometry of the Earth.  If a flight from Sydney to Johannesburg seems to take 14.5 hours most of the time, thats what they'll schedule, and that's what people will expect.  They're not going to make calculations in spherical coordinate space to prove the geometry they are covering.

The flight time and distance covered is the more concrete evidence, and the example provided fits with FE theory.  Which it should, because the EARTH IS FLAT.

dude man:

"people would notice" arguments are intensely valid.  It's how you prove that a huge rabbit-bat-naked-pink-cabbage-carrot-space alien-cliff-tree-swallow-banana-brillo paper-potato-panda did not just become president.

Let me be clear:

* If the Earth is flat there will be major differences in distance from place to place.

      For example; look at this map:




Africa is wider than it is tall.  The distance from Arizona to Alaska is about the same as the distance from Arizona to New York. {as someone who has done both drives, I can tell you that that is definatly not true}

* If you change the map you can more the distortions around; but the will still be somewhere.              There's a theorem of Euler that basically implies this.

* The Earth is very, very, well travelled.

* If the huge distortions existed, people would notice.  Seriously.  Do you think they wouldn't?
« Last Edit: May 14, 2008, 11:23:12 AM by lindelof »

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Ski

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Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
« Reply #291 on: May 14, 2008, 11:45:55 AM »
The distance from Arizona to Alaska is about the same as the distance from Arizona to New York. {as someone who has done both drives, I can tell you that that is definatly not true}

While not arguing that the continents are accurately  mapped on that map, the straight-line distance from say Juneau to Phoenix and NY,NY to Phoenix are VERY, VERY close to the same. Further demonstrating the point. You noticed a longer drive, but it wasn't. Someone else might notice a shorter trip that wasn't.
"Never think you can turn over any old falsehood without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it." -O.W. Holmes "Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne.."

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fshy94

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Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
« Reply #292 on: May 14, 2008, 11:57:18 AM »
Except, ski, I took care to note this, by noting flights in both directions, which is impossible on a FE without scrunching up the distance from either New York to London or San Francisco to Seoul. Something's gotta give.
Proof the Earth is round!
http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=19341.0

Quote from: Althalus
The conspiracy has made it impossible to adequately explain FE theory in English.
^^LOL!

*

lindelof

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Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
« Reply #293 on: May 14, 2008, 11:58:38 AM »
The distance from Arizona to Alaska is about the same as the distance from Arizona to New York. {as someone who has done both drives, I can tell you that that is definatly not true}

While not arguing that the continents are accurately  mapped on that map, the straight-line distance from say Juneau to Phoenix and NY,NY to Phoenix are VERY, VERY close to the same. Further demonstrating the point. You noticed a longer drive, but it wasn't. Someone else might notice a shorter trip that wasn't.

Yeah.  But you don't drive the straight line distance.  Anyway, that specific case doesn't paticularly matter.  The point is that no matter how you map the continents onto a flat surface, you are going to get major differences in distance, shape & size.  In the sort of Fe maps that are usually used on this board, things in the Southern Hemisphere are either way to big or way too far apart.  In the map I posted it is waaaaaaaaay to far from Tierra Del Fuego to Australia.  If I'm not incorrect, before the Panama Canal was built, people sailed that route alot.  They would have noticed an extra few thousand miles.

Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
« Reply #294 on: May 14, 2008, 12:22:29 PM »

dude man:

"people would notice" arguments are intensely valid.  It's how you prove that a huge rabbit-bat-naked-pink-cabbage-carrot-space alien-cliff-tree-swallow-banana-brillo paper-potato-panda did not just become president.


Dude man, that is not science.  I know it is a subtle point to grasp... but there is an enormous gulf between great reasons to believe something, and SCIENCE.

Scientists don't prove everything they believe- but when they debate a particular scientific premise, it must be in terms of evidence.


Regarding your specific argument, dude man, flight schedules and expectations derive from experience and not theory. The Earth is flat, and of course this will dictate the lengths involved.  But what evidence do you have of any flight times which contradict the shape of our great, flat, earth?

Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
« Reply #295 on: May 14, 2008, 12:26:25 PM »
The earth is commonly believed to be round, and flight times are calculated with this in mind.

The real flight times are usually identical or very close to the predicted ones, which means the assumption that the earth is round was correct.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
« Reply #296 on: May 14, 2008, 12:47:25 PM »
Quote
The real flight times are usually identical or very close to the predicted ones

Do you have proof for this claim?

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lindelof

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Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
« Reply #297 on: May 14, 2008, 01:03:18 PM »
Quote
The real flight times are usually identical or very close to the predicted ones

Do you have proof for this claim?

If flight times were off by many hours people would notice.  People haven't noticed.  Flight times aren't off by many hours.  So flight times are fairly close to the predicted ones.


dude man:

"people would notice" arguments are intensely valid.  It's how you prove that a huge rabbit-bat-naked-pink-cabbage-carrot-space alien-cliff-tree-swallow-banana-brillo paper-potato-panda did not just become president.


Dude man, that is not science.  I know it is a subtle point to grasp... but there is an enormous gulf between great reasons to believe something, and SCIENCE.

Scientists don't prove everything they believe- but when they debate a particular scientific premise, it must be in terms of evidence.


Regarding your specific argument, dude man, flight schedules and expectations derive from experience and not theory. The Earth is flat, and of course this will dictate the lengths involved.  But what evidence do you have of any flight times which contradict the shape of our great, flat, earth?

Yeah, I don't really care if my arguments fit your idea of science, so long as they provide "great reasons to believe something."  If my arguments provide great reasons to believe that the Earth is round, than I'm happy.

Evidence of flight times?  Pretty much all flight times ever.  Especially in the Southern Hemisphere.  Flight schedules & expectations may not be derived from theory, but if they contradicted the theory......

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fshy94

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Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
« Reply #298 on: May 14, 2008, 01:24:48 PM »
Quote
The real flight times are usually identical or very close to the predicted ones

Do you have proof for this claim?

Haven't we been over this Tom? The website, if you recall?
Proof the Earth is round!
http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=19341.0

Quote from: Althalus
The conspiracy has made it impossible to adequately explain FE theory in English.
^^LOL!

*

Tom Bishop

  • Flat Earth Believer
  • 17920
Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
« Reply #299 on: May 14, 2008, 01:37:39 PM »
Quote
If flight times were off by many hours people would notice.  People haven't noticed.  Flight times aren't off by many hours.  So flight times are fairly close to the predicted ones.

I've noticed. I have been on international flights which have experienced in-flight delays on the range of hours.

Quote
Haven't we been over this Tom? The website, if you recall?

Would that be the flight time calculator on the internet which gives flight time estimates based on the Round Earth model?
« Last Edit: May 14, 2008, 02:27:46 PM by Tom Bishop »