The Flat Earth Society

Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Debate => Topic started by: Roundy the Truthinessist on January 16, 2008, 11:18:22 PM

Title: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Roundy the Truthinessist on January 16, 2008, 11:18:22 PM
Tom, this is directed at you.

I'm wondering what line of thinking went into your flip-flop from being absolutely positive that a conspiracy with the purpose of covering up the shape of the earth exists to being absolutely positive that the conspiracy is only over the space race and the conspirators know nothing about the shape of the earth.

Second thought, a question to Dogplatter too.

If Tom doesn't respond with something reasonable, do you still take him seriously as a legitimate flat earth believer?
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Tom Bishop on January 17, 2008, 09:16:41 AM
If NASA has never been to space and simply fakes their data to win the space race/get funding/maintain the illusion of America's militaristic domination of space, then how would they know that the earth is flat?

Anyone even slightly familiar with the Space Race knows that NASA created in the 50's by the military to get its tools of death and destruction (ICBM's) in the public eye and to intimidate foreign nations with America's space capabilities. A country with a space program, or at least the appearance of one, is a considerable foe indeed.
 
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I'm wondering what line of thinking went into your flip-flop from being absolutely positive that a conspiracy with the purpose of covering up the shape of the earth to being absolutely positive that the conspiracy is only over the space race and the conspirators know nothing about the shape of the earth.

I've never said that the purpose of the Conspiracy was to cover up the shape of the earth. Why would anyone want to cover up the shape of the earth? That's stupid.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: eric bloedow on January 17, 2008, 09:27:05 AM
oh, come on, tom! you have repeatedly, no, continuously, accused every single pilot, ship navigator, mapmaker, etc, of conspiring to make people think the world is round! now you are denying that you ever said any of that?! you are denying at least half the things you have EVER SAID ON THIS SITE?!?!
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Tom Bishop on January 17, 2008, 09:28:31 AM
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oh, come on, tom! you have repeatedly, no, continuously, accused every single pilot, ship navigator, mapmaker, etc, of conspiring to make people think the world is round!

I've never claimed any of those things. Care to dig up a quote?

In fact, Dr. Samuel Birley Rowbotham and other writers of the Flat Earth Literature have repeatedly and thoroughly shown that nautical records demonstrate distances which could not occur on a Round Earth.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: eric bloedow on January 17, 2008, 09:49:36 AM
show us those records...IF you can!

so what is YOUR explanation for the FACT that an airplane can fly from the south end of south america, over antarctica, and land in southern africa using only a small fraction of the fuel and time YOU claim it should take?

not to mention that all ships south of the equator use round earth maps and get where they want to go...
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Tom Bishop on January 17, 2008, 09:53:46 AM
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show us those records...IF you can!

Read "Earth Not a Globe" by Dr. Samuel Birley Rowbotham and "Flat Earth: The history of an Infamous Idea" by Christine Garwood.

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so what is YOUR explanation for the FACT that an airplane can fly from the south end of south america, over antarctica, and land in southern africa using only a small fraction of the fuel and time YOU claim it should take?

Airplane routes from South America don't fly over Antarctica to reach South Africa.

In fact, planes from South America don't go to South Africa at all. There are very few international airports in South Africa, you see.

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not to mention that all ships south of the equator use round earth maps and get where they want to go...

It's possible to get to your destination using a RE map on a FE.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 17, 2008, 09:56:37 AM
No, actually, its not. The distance on the FE side would start to double, see how the tropics are concentric. On the RE, they are the same. So actually, the time to get anywhere on the FE on the southern hemisphere would increase horribly. Draw a scale key next to a FE map and look at it. Furthermore, your Earth not a Globe book that you love has no explanation for that, does it?
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Tom Bishop on January 17, 2008, 09:57:53 AM
No, actually, its not. The distance on the FE side would start to double, see how the tropics are concentric. On the RE, they are the same. So actually, the time to get anywhere on the FE on the southern hemisphere would increase horribly. Draw a scale key next to a FE map and look at it. Furthermore, your Earth not a Globe book that you love has no explanation for that, does it?

Too bad you don't have any data to back up your assertion. Your "proof" consists solely of a blind belief in your model.

Dr. Samuel Birley Rowbotham and William Carpenter have thoroughly and repeatedly demonstrated through nautical records from the Southern Hemisphere that the distance between longitudes grow longer beyond the equator.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: John Davis on January 17, 2008, 09:58:14 AM
There isn't a FE map.  How can we draw a scale key next to it :/
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: eric bloedow on January 17, 2008, 10:01:38 AM
oh, i see...according to you, no airplane has ever TRIED to fly from south america to africa, or vice-versa, in the entire history of the world...

now that i've checked a map, let's try this instead: africa to new zealand.

and as usual, you totally missed my point: i said anyone SOUTH OF THE EQUATOR would get lost if they tried to use a RE map on FE, OR vice-versa!

and YOU are the one who has absolutely blind faith in YOUR model, so how dare you accuse US of being blind!
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 17, 2008, 10:02:59 AM
There isn't a FE map.  How can we draw a scale key next to it :/

Don't worry username, this is for Tom. It's his fail, and I want him to fall.

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Too bad you don't have any date to back up your assertion. Your "proof" consists of a blind belief in your model.

Actually, I do. Draw a map of the FE with a scale for distances. C'mon, I know you have one, now just add in a scale key for distances. C'mon...what's the matter? Oh, and the second point applies better to you. I actually considered the possibility that the Earth might be flat. You never considered the opposite.

So go ahead, point out to me how the tropics can be concentric and yet the same circumference. Go ahead. Show me with your map. Hit me with your best shot. And then show me how a flight from Sydney to Pretoria can work with the same distance as an RE, without compromising the distance between New York to London.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Tom Bishop on January 17, 2008, 10:04:59 AM
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oh, i see...according to you, no airplane has ever TRIED to fly from south america to africa, or vice-versa, in the entire history of the world...

Sure they did. And it took longer than expected, just as the writers of the Flat Earth Literature have demonstrated.

You have shown no data to demonstrate otherwise, so why should we believe you?
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 17, 2008, 10:08:35 AM
Oh, OK, so every flight in the South of the equator takes twice as long, without anyone noticing? Nice Tom, nice. The map.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Tom Bishop on January 17, 2008, 10:09:56 AM
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Oh, OK, so every flight in the South of the equator takes twice as long, without anyone noticing? Nice Tom, nice. The map.

They notice. Why wouldn't they?

I've personally been on international flights which have been delayed by hours. Everyone on my flight certainly noticed that.

Once again, you have shown no data to demonstrate otherwise, so why should we believe you?
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 17, 2008, 10:13:00 AM
This isn't a one-time delay, idiot. This is every single flight across there. Not one flight can make it on time. Not one, according to the FE model. Or does the FE do a shifting dance to help the distance?
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: eric bloedow on January 17, 2008, 10:14:09 AM
oh, come on, tom! have you forgotten your OWN model?

according to YOU, africa and new zealand are on OPPOSITE SIDES OF THE FE!

of course someone would notice the difference between 2,000 miles and 25,000 miles!


for the rest of you: this was discussed in an old thread: great circle route
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 17, 2008, 10:15:25 AM
Yes it was, but Tom ran. Let's see if he does again. Again Tom, this isn't an hour, even 5 hour delay. This flight would take a looooonng time on an FE model. About 10-12 times longer than expected.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Tom Bishop on January 17, 2008, 10:15:43 AM
This isn't a one-time delay, idiot. This is every single flight across there. Not one flight can make it on time. Not one, according to the FE model.

What data do you have showing that the flights aren't delayed? None?

Dr. Samuel Birley Rowbotham and the writers of the Flat Earth Literature have proven beyond doubt that the latitude lines separate beyond the equator.

Since you have no data to back up your assertion that the latitude lines converge beyond the equator, it seems that your argument contains  zero evidence. You have not contradicted the vast body of evidence collected by the Flat Earth Society. So why should we believe you?
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 17, 2008, 10:18:14 AM
I do. You just gave it to me. You said that your flight was delayed by hours. Not days aboard the plane. Furthermore, you claim that every pilot, who flies there, does not notice a 10-12 multiple of their flight time? Every. Single. Time.


If you claim otherwise. Draw. The. F'ing. Map.

Fail.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Tom Bishop on January 17, 2008, 10:21:22 AM
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This flight would take a looooonng time on an FE model. About 10-12 times longer than expected.

No it wouldn't. You've vastly overestimated.

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I do. You just gave it to me. You said that your flight was delayed by hours. Not days aboard the plane.

I didn't tell you where my flight was headed.

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Furthermore, you claim that every pilot, who flies there, does not notice a 10-12 multiple of their flight time? Every. Single. Time.

I believe that I said that they did notice the delay.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: eric bloedow on January 17, 2008, 10:22:34 AM
you do not have a "vast body of evidence", tom; you have 2 books, which contradict every other book ever written!
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 17, 2008, 10:23:32 AM
OK, lets assume for a half second that you're right, and that its 3 times longer. Let's do a roll call for all people who have flown on the South of the equator. According to you, a 20 hour flight should take 60 hours, and a 5 hour flight 15. Each time. Either pilots are in on the conspiracy, are they are all the stupidest people on Earth. Engy, you ever fly South of the equator?

Furthermore. You refuse to put a scale on your map that I know you have hidden as a stupid jpeg on your computer. Put it, and give it to me.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: John Davis on January 17, 2008, 10:24:34 AM
I've been on a plane that traveled south of the equator, but never on a transcontinental flight, which is what would be needed to note this.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: John Davis on January 17, 2008, 10:26:08 AM
Actually, I went to Australia a long time ago.  Not sure about that flight being longer, but I didn't note it was.  Course I slept through most of it and didn't have a watch so <shrugs>
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 17, 2008, 10:26:58 AM
Sorry to pry, but I need the starting location and destination :D Where'd you start and what city you end up in?

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Course I slept through most of it and didn't have a watch so

But the time zones matched up, didn't they? I mean, you arrived at the time you were supposed to, and predictably, you kept your old time when you first slept again?
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: NTheGreat on January 17, 2008, 10:27:21 AM
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What data do you have showing that the flights aren't delayed? None?

You could probably find some flight predictions. Shipping predictions would be useful as well. I dread to think of the delay that a cargo ship would experience.


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Dr. Samuel Birley Rowbotham and the writers of the Flat Earth Literature have Dr. Samuel Birley Rowbotham and the writers of the Flat Earth Literature have proven beyond doubt that the latitude lines separate beyond the equator. that the latitude lines separate beyond the equator.

I wouldn't say 'proven beyond doubt'. They've taken accounts that they have no evidence of being true, placed them out of contex and put them in a position which suggests a possibility of a flat earth.

I must admit there does seem to be quite a lack of proper scientific investigation in E:naG. It does make me wonder why you value the opinion of someone who can't write up a proper experiment so highly.

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Since you have no data to back up your assertion that the latitude lines converge beyond the equator, it seems that your argument contains  zero evidence. You have not contradicted the vast body of evidence collected by the Flat Earth Society. So why should we believe you?

You don't have any data to back up your assertion. You only have the accounts of a few pieces of literature. If you want data, go and look for a company that requires accurate maps of the planet.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Tom Bishop on January 17, 2008, 10:30:21 AM
you do not have a "vast body of evidence", tom; you have 2 books, which contradict every other book ever written!

Actually I have 33 books, several newsletters and periodicals dedicated to the Flat Earth Theory, several documentaries (one of which appeared on the Discovery Channel and another of which appeared on the Learning Channel), and numerous articles which have appeared in established scientific publications. A partial listing can be found in my signature.

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OK, lets assume for a half second that you're right, and that its 3 times longer. Let's do a roll call for all people who have flown on the South of the equator. According to you, a 20 hour flight should take 60 hours, and a 5 hour flight 15. Each time. Either pilots are in on the conspiracy, are they are all the stupidest people on Earth.

Why would a pilot do anything about an incorrect distance on a map? They're just glorified taxi cab drivers.

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Furthermore. You refuse to put a scale on your map that I know you have hidden as a stupid jpeg on your computer. Put it, and give it to me.

I don't have a hidden map with a scale on my computer. The maps with scales are the accurate ones done by Dr. Samuel Birley Rowbotham and Charles Johnson before their deaths. You can find Dr. Rowbotham's map reprinted in "Flat Earth: The History of an Infamous Idea" by Christine Garwood.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: John Davis on January 17, 2008, 10:30:44 AM
Sorry to pry, but I need the starting location and destination :D Where'd you start and what city you end up in?
This was a very very long time ago, I'll try to guess/remember the best I can.

Well, I started in TN, went to California, and from there I landed in either Melbourne or Sydney, I'm not sure which came first.  Probably Melbourne since I went up to Brisbane too.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 17, 2008, 10:35:53 AM


Why would a pilot do anything about an incorrect distance on a map? They're just glorified taxi cab drivers.

I don't have a hidden map with a scale on my computer. America is about 3,000 miles long. You can just use that fact when debating the accuracy of any particular map.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH! You fail Tom. Have you ever flown an f'ing Cesna, let alone a commercial plane? It's not a taxicab. Ask engy.

Secondly, you do have a map, without a scale. Stick a scale on it, according to how you would make the distances match, and give them to me. I know you have the map, and a surplus of time.

EDIT: Thanks Username. That flight isn't the best flight I would have picked, but thanks anyway. The problem with that flight is that its sorta North South, rather than East West, and I'd have preferred a Southern Hemisphere to Southern Hemisphere flight. That said, it would be pretty remarkable if all flights South of the Equator took between 3-15 times as long as they should.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Tom Bishop on January 17, 2008, 10:38:41 AM
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH! You fail Tom. Have you ever flown an f'ing Cesna, let alone a commercial plane? It's not a taxicab. Ask engy.

Airline pilots are hired by the airliner to pick up passengers and take them to their desired destination. Sounds like a Taxi driver to me.

Would a New York Taxi driver take the initiative and do something about it if he found that a distance on his glovebox map was inaccurate? No. The Taxi driver doesn't care. The Taxi driver only cares about money.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Althalus on January 17, 2008, 10:40:15 AM
you do not have a "vast body of evidence", tom; you have 2 books, which contradict every other book ever written!
Doesn't contradict Moby Dick.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 17, 2008, 10:44:23 AM
1.About the taxi drivers, you fail. It's not about purpose, retard, its about skill. You need far more skill to pilot a plane, than a taxi. They also are required to report in those distances, in case they go off course, so airports can find out what went wrong.

2. So you admit to attempting to lie when you stated that. You attempted to pass that off as proof that I was wrong. Fail 2.0

3. So, they noticed the delay, and were so stupid that they didn't report it in, and didn't realize the implications of this? They didn't get confused? They didn't think what on Earth was going on? The people who picked them up from the airport never realized that being 20 hours late was horrible?

4. The delay would be that bad from Sydney to Pretoria. Think about it, or give me the map to prove it.

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Doesn't contradict Moby Dick.

Chuckles :D
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: eric bloedow on January 17, 2008, 10:50:11 AM
so if you tried to take a taxi from new york to los angeles, the cabbie wouldn't notice?

oh, and flying an airplane is much more complicated than driving a car.
i've read that one of the tests pilots must take is "the bag": flying with the windshield COVERED, entirely dependent on the navigational instruments.

don't you think someone would notice if ALL NAVIGATIONAL INSTRUMENTS were inaccurate?!

also, the most common map is the "mercator projection" map, which makes the equator look like a straight line, which doesn't really fit either model.

one more thing: for a short trip, say 50 miles, it wouldn't matter which kind of map was used. but for a 2,000 mile trip...
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: TheEngineer on January 17, 2008, 10:58:18 AM
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH! You fail Tom. Have you ever flown an f'ing Cesna, let alone a commercial plane? It's not a taxicab. Ask engy.
As much as it pains me to agree with Tom, I feel the same way.  Sure flying is fun and requires a crapload of skill and knowledge, but pilots are really nothing more than glorified bus drivers.  Except fighter pilots.  They are full of win.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 17, 2008, 10:59:57 AM
In purpose, but not skill. He implied that you guys would be so stupid, as to not realize the implications of a flight taking 3 times longer than it normally would. Then he used the taxicab driver analogy.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Mrs. Peach on January 17, 2008, 11:24:18 AM
As much as it pains me to agree with Tom, I feel the same way.  Sure flying is fun and requires a crapload of skill and knowledge, but pilots are really nothing more than glorified bus drivers.  Except fighter pilots.  They are full of win.

  ;D  They are indeed.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 17, 2008, 11:30:28 AM
So no-one has an answer?
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: John Davis on January 17, 2008, 11:31:11 AM
So no-one has an answer?
There isn't a FE map
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 17, 2008, 11:36:45 AM
But it is concentric. You do have mockups without scales, right? I've seen em. And the tropics are concentric. Which means south of the equator, the distance is wider. Much wider. Oh, and flight tracking? Here.

http://www.flightstats.com/
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: John Davis on January 17, 2008, 11:38:16 AM
But it is concentric. You do have mockups without scales, right? I've seen em. And the tropics are concentric. Which means south of the equator, the distance is wider. Much wider. Oh, and flight tracking? Here.

http://www.flightstats.com/

Those are just to illustrate the idea of the north pole being the center.  They aren't to any sort of scale and aren't meant to be accurate in any way.  They are simply to illustrate the concept, as I understand it.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 17, 2008, 11:45:50 AM
But the tropics are still concentric. It is impossible for it to work on the same map as a RE. Either flights would take several times longer, or the Earth is round. Since the former is not observed, it is a safe conclusion that the latter is true.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: John Davis on January 17, 2008, 11:58:13 AM
Hrm I've been using the wrong word.  Transcontinental.  Opps.


Anyways, I agree, the FE map is borked.  Its the area in which the theory is the weakest, imo.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Roundy the Truthinessist on January 17, 2008, 12:38:30 PM
If NASA has never been to space and simply fakes their data to win the space race/get funding/maintain the illusion of America's militaristic domination of space, then how would they know that the earth is flat?

Anyone even slightly familiar with the Space Race knows that NASA created in the 50's by the military to get its tools of death and destruction (ICBM's) in the public eye and to intimidate foreign nations with America's space capabilities. A country with a space program, or at least the appearance of one, is a considerable foe indeed.
 
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I'm wondering what line of thinking went into your flip-flop from being absolutely positive that a conspiracy with the purpose of covering up the shape of the earth to being absolutely positive that the conspiracy is only over the space race and the conspirators know nothing about the shape of the earth.

I've never said that the purpose of the Conspiracy was to cover up the shape of the earth. Why would anyone want to cover up the shape of the earth? That's stupid.

Yes you have.  You were carrying on the tradition of the International Flat Earth Society, whose official opinion was that the conspiracy was intended to cover up the shape of the earth.  Being a bunch of religious zealots, of course, their reasoning was anti-Christian sentiment; your reasoning never really made much sense. 
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Germanicus on January 17, 2008, 12:52:20 PM
Tom, if you have the books why don't you upload a map from them?
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Germanicus on January 17, 2008, 01:16:29 PM
Fshy I found Rowbot's map

http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/img/fig54.jpg (http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/img/fig54.jpg)
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Roundy the Truthinessist on January 17, 2008, 01:19:25 PM
I've never said that the purpose of the Conspiracy was to cover up the shape of the earth. Why would anyone want to cover up the shape of the earth? That's stupid.

Okay.  Here's where you say the conspiracy started long before the space race:
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Over a century before NASA the Round Earth Conspiracy was perpetuated by the Royal Astronomical Society. It began as the Astronomical Society of London in 1820 as a dummy organization to support astronomical research. It later became the Royal Astronomical Society in 1831 on receiving its Royal Charter from William IV.

The Royal Astronomical Society was a notoriously corrupt entity, often abusing science grants to produce round earth fiction. It's members were among the upperclass elite, most of whom had little in the way of educated backgrounds. The content presented by the Royal Astronomical Society was pure fiction, full of holes and fallacies.

The Royal Astronomical Society benefited financially from royal science grants and sales of its fictitious publications. In its time, the fame of the Royal Astronomical Society reached all parts of the world. Its scientific publications were known for breaking new ground and entertaining the public with descriptions of the universe. By latching onto the then radical Round Earth theory, the Royal Astronomical Society was able to inspire wonder and interest in its unique publications which seemed to describe how gravity worked and the true shape of the earth.
Please note the name you gave to the conspiracy in the first line (I made it nice and bold to make sure you'd be able to find it).  You can find that quote here (http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=11233.msg141875#msg141875).

Here's one where you claim that the US knows the true shape of the earth (a direct contradiction to your current claim):
Only the US operates at altitudes necessary to discern whether or not the earth is truly a globe.

Finally, here's one where you tie Antarctica into the conspiracy (which wouldn't make logical sense under your current interpretation of the conspiracy):
Actually, since the turn of the 20th century, it wasn't uncommon for Antarctic explorers to turn up dead or missing.

Robert F. Scott, for example, was murdered while exploring Antarctica.

So, again:
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I'm wondering what line of thinking went into your flip-flop from being absolutely positive that a conspiracy with the purpose of covering up the shape of the earth to being absolutely positive that the conspiracy is only over the space race and the conspirators know nothing about the shape of the earth.

Care to quit bullshitting and actually provide a legitimate answer, or are you willing to admit that this flub exposes you as a fraud and destroys your credibility?  ???
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 17, 2008, 01:35:00 PM
Well done Roundy and Germanicus. Yes, that map clearly shows that it thinks that the distance from New York to London is less than three times the distance from Santiago to Pretoria. Not observed. The prediction thinks that the travel time should take twice as long as it is. I don't recall planes being consistently 8 hours later, at least. Check the flight statistics on that website.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Tom Bishop on January 17, 2008, 01:36:58 PM
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3. So, they noticed the delay, and were so stupid that they didn't report it in, and didn't realize the implications of this? They didn't get confused? They didn't think what on Earth was going on? The people who picked them up from the airport never realized that being 20 hours late was horrible?

I'm sure they realized the delay. But what are they going to do, call the presses and change the shape of the earth?

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Okay.  Here's where you say the conspiracy started long before the space race:

Before the 50's NASA existed as the RAS. Just because they were faking data and collecting science grants back then, it doesn't mean that they knew the true shape of the earth.

How would they?
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Tom Bishop on January 17, 2008, 01:38:55 PM
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The prediction thinks that the travel time should take twice as long as it is.

An automatically generated prediction based upon a RE map does not mean that there isn't going to be a delay after the flight departs.

How would a computer system know whether or not there is going to be a delay? That's nothing more than a prediction.

Any evidence must be in the form of testimonials from people who have actually flown on those Southern Hemisphere flights.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 17, 2008, 01:41:19 PM
Look, have you ever heard of speed * time = distance? OK, planes travel at 500 MPH. Now, the distance on an RE is at least 4000 miles shorter. The prediction is made on RE, so they predict say....10 hour flight. Now, FE predicts 18 hours. Flights usually arrive within 1 hour of the estimated time. What can you deduce from this, retard?
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Tom Bishop on January 17, 2008, 01:42:09 PM
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Fshy I found Rowbot's map

That's not Rowbotham's accurate map. That's just a proof-of-concept illustration which appeared in one of his books. Dr. Rowbotham later compiled a highly detailed map based upon nautical records and first hand accounts which is reprinted in "Flat Earth: The History of an Infamous Idea."
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 17, 2008, 01:43:16 PM
Good. You have it, I take it? Give it to me or shut up.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Roundy the Truthinessist on January 17, 2008, 01:43:47 PM
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3. So, they noticed the delay, and were so stupid that they didn't report it in, and didn't realize the implications of this? They didn't get confused? They didn't think what on Earth was going on? The people who picked them up from the airport never realized that being 20 hours late was horrible?

I'm sure they realized the delay. But what are they going to do, call the presses and change the shape of the earth?

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Okay.  Here's where you say the conspiracy started long before the space race:

Before the 50's NASA existed as the RAS. Just because they were faking data and collecting science grants back then, it doesn't mean that they knew the true shape of the earth.

How would they?
lol.  You called it the "Round Earth Conspiracy".   :D And you've conveniently avoided the rest of my post.

I love how clear it is that you're just making this up as you go along.

I can see the zipper now, Tom.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Tom Bishop on January 17, 2008, 01:44:09 PM
Quote
Look, have you ever heard of speed * time = distance? OK, planes travel at 500 MPH. Now, the distance on an RE is at least 4000 miles shorter. The prediction is made on RE, so they predict say....10 hour flight. Now, FE predicts 18 hours. Flights usually arrive within 1 hour of the estimated time. What can you deduce from this, retard?

Like I said, I've been on flights which have been delayed by a number of hours.

What evidence do you have showing that the flights in the Southern Hemisphere don't experience delays?
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 17, 2008, 01:45:27 PM
Look, idiot, like I said before, its not a f'ing delay. According to the FE model, THERE CAN BE NO FLIGHTS WHICH ARRIVE ON TIME???!?!?!?!? Do you get it now, you blasted idiot?!?!
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Tom Bishop on January 17, 2008, 01:47:15 PM
Look, idiot, like I said before, its not a f'ing delay. According to the FE model, THERE CAN BE NO FLIGHTS WHICH ARRIVE ON TIME???!?!?!?!? Do you get it now, you blasted idiot?!?!

So how can you prove that a flight between the southern continents in the Southern Hemisphere would arrive on time?
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 17, 2008, 01:49:02 PM
The website I gave you  ;D You're far too predictable. Previous page. Allow me to say it before you...conspiracy ::)

Furthermore, go get on a plane, in the Southern hemisphere, and you're entire theory is over. So now, I present, proof of the curvature of the Earth. At last, a testable result.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Tom Bishop on January 17, 2008, 01:50:36 PM
The website I gave you  ;D You're far too predictable. Previous page. Allow me to say it before you...conspiracy ::)

I don't see any data supporting your model of the earth on that website. All data on that website seems to support the Flat Earth model.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 17, 2008, 01:51:20 PM
Erm...look at the website, and show me flights which all appear 8 hours late. I'd like to see the load of delays there. Go ahead, liar, show me.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Roundy the Truthinessist on January 17, 2008, 01:55:04 PM
Why would anyone want to cover up the shape of the earth? That's stupid.

Quote
Over a century before NASA the Round Earth Conspiracy was perpetuated by the Royal Astronomical Society. It began as the Astronomical Society of London in 1820 as a dummy organization to support astronomical research. It later became the Royal Astronomical Society in 1831 on receiving its Royal Charter from William IV.

Before the 50's NASA existed as the RAS.

 ;D

What was the RAS covering up, exactly?
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 17, 2008, 01:58:37 PM
^^HAHAHA. Nice work again, Roundy. Note how he doesn't respond to that.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Tom Bishop on January 17, 2008, 01:58:49 PM
Erm...look at the website, and show me flights which all appear 8 hours late. I'd like to see the load of delays there. Go ahead, liar, show me.

You won't see many 8-hour delayed flights because most planes visit the Southern continents traveling a North-South route from the populated industrial continents. Flying North-South on a Flat Earth map would give you an identical distance to the Round Earth model.

It's only the very few eastward or westward flights between the southern continents that would experience a delay.

Quote
What was the RAS covering up, exactly?

They weren't covering anything up. They were just making up data for the RE to steal science grants from the government, just as NASA does now.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 17, 2008, 02:00:47 PM
Oh, so now you rescind the previous statement? Fail. And there are East-West flights. Take a look. Try major population centers, like Sydney to Delhi, or Sydney to Santiago/Mexico. Try it. You don't have to fly purely East-West. Just enough to show how badly you fail.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Roundy the Truthinessist on January 17, 2008, 02:01:18 PM
Quote
What was the RAS covering up, exactly?

They weren't covering anything up. They were just making up data for the RE to steal science grants from the government, just as NASA does now.

Then why did you directly state that they were perpetuating the myth of a round earth?  ???
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 17, 2008, 02:02:17 PM
And who "murdered" the South Pole explorers, like you said before?
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Tom Bishop on January 17, 2008, 02:05:11 PM
Quote
Oh, so now you rescind the previous statement? Fail. And there are East-West flights. Take a look. Try major population centers, like Sydney to Delhi, or Sydney to Santiago/Mexico. Try it. You don't have to fly purely East-West. Just enough to show how badly you fail.

I don't see any East-West SH flights. You are mistaken.

Quote
And who "murdered" the South Pole explorers, like you said before?

How am I supposed to know who murdered Scott of the Antarctic?

Quote
Then why did you directly state that they were perpetuating the myth of a round earth?

Because they were.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Roundy the Truthinessist on January 17, 2008, 02:05:59 PM
Around and around we go.  ;D

I guess I've made my point.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 17, 2008, 02:07:11 PM
Can you read Bishop? Delhi-Sydney? Santiago-Sydney? Now, unless you claim that those are North-South, in which you fail even worse than you do, you fail yet again.

Quote
How am I supposed to know who murdered Scott of the Antarctic?

How do you know he was murdered in the first place?
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Officer Friendly on January 17, 2008, 02:07:29 PM
I have quite a bit flying experience, both as a pilot, and a passenger. I've flown to pretty much every continent, and i've had delays, sometime as much as up to an hour. In the air. None of this 8 hours late that seems to be the 'proof' of a flat earth. I've done visual flying, and instrument rating hours (you're right, the windshield is covered from the inside, and you have nothing but to guide you but instruments and a tightly clenched rectum) and i managed to make it back. Your FAQ says pilots are either too stupid to notice the difference, which i'd like to correct, or that they're in on it too. When i got my licence, i didn't get a lecture on 'the secret' and neither has any pilot i've met, and i've met a lot. Australia had a pilot strike a few years ago, and quite a few of these taxi-drivers were sacked out of hand. Not what i thought would've happened to people who could've blown it all out of the water by talking to the press. I thought they'd all be paid out to shut them up, after all they are the secret masters of the universe. or something. Incidentally, this is your theory, that you're trying, TRYING, to prove, so it is incumbent on YOU and YOU ALONE to provide ABSOLUTE SCIENTIFIC proof of your theory. You say flights would experience 8 hour delays, prove it. It's not for me to disprove, it's for you to prove. That's the scientific method. You can't say 1+1=3 and just keep waving your hands rather than support your claim. I want proper proof, provided by you Tom Bishop, actual proof, numbers, figures, interviews with people. Bring it to the table, or admit you're wrong, you're desperate and you've got nothing.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Tom Bishop on January 17, 2008, 02:07:55 PM
Quote
Can you read Bishop? Delhi-Sydney? Santiago-Sydney? Now, unless you claim that those are North-South, in which you fail even worse than you do, you fail yet again.

I can't find any of those flights you've listed. You're mistaken.

Quote
I guess I've made my point.

Perpetuating the myth of the Round Earth doesn't mean that you know the true shape of the earth.

Quote
How do you know he was murdered in the first place?

Because he was found clawing for life in his tent.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Loard Z on January 17, 2008, 02:09:50 PM
this thread = win for Tom.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 17, 2008, 02:09:55 PM
Could be lead poisoning. I suppose the more prudent question is, Bishop, do you know anything at all?

Oh, and answer the first point.

Quote
this thread = win for Tom.

LOL
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Roundy the Truthinessist on January 17, 2008, 02:10:36 PM
Quote
And who "murdered" the South Pole explorers, like you said before?

How am I supposed to know who murdered Scott of the Antarctic?

Well, you clearly implied it was the conspiracy.  ::)

Quote
Then why did you directly state that they were perpetuating the myth of a round earth?

Because they were.

Sure.  But by saying that they were faking data related to the shape of the earth you're implying that the conspiracy's purpose was to hide the shape of the earth (thereby profiting).  Or can you cite anything not related to the shape of the earth that they "lied" about?
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Officer Friendly on January 17, 2008, 02:13:58 PM
Have a look through these posts, anything that doesn't jibe with Tom's world-view is either a conspiracy or special effects. Mr Bishop, you're a very poor debator, and an extremely poor reasoner.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Roundy the Truthinessist on January 17, 2008, 02:15:32 PM
Not news, Officer.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Officer Friendly on January 17, 2008, 02:17:25 PM
I thought flat-earthers were a bunch of cute, grumpy old men who just wanted things the way they were in the fifties. This crowd is amazing, i've never seen such ignorance. It's going to fun to chase them into a corner and beat them senseless with logic and reason.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 17, 2008, 02:17:38 PM
Oh, and Tom?

Flights QF 63 & SA 7701

Sydney-Johannesburg

Both 36 minutes late, not 8 hours.

JNB    Johannesburg    QF 63    Qantas Airways    10:30 AM    11:09 AM       T-1    Landed
36 min    744    
JNB    Johannesburg    SA 7701^    South African Airways    10:30 AM    11:09 AM       T-1    Landed
36 min    744    

RE win. You fail.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Colonel Gaydafi on January 17, 2008, 02:23:31 PM
Tom has finally lost the plot. Another win for entertainment!
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Tom Bishop on January 17, 2008, 02:24:04 PM
Quote
Quote
Both 36 minutes late, not 8 hours.

JNB    Johannesburg    QF 63    Qantas Airways    10:30 AM    11:09 AM       T-1    Landed
36 min    744    
JNB    Johannesburg    SA 7701^    South African Airways    10:30 AM    11:09 AM       T-1    Landed
36 min    744    

For the rare flight that does occur between those two extremities of the earth; along the courses between Sydney and Johannesburg exist enormous jet streams located at around 35,000 ft above the surface of the Earth. In the Southern Hemisphere there are both eastward and westward jet streams. By necessity, in relation to the polar front and subtropical jets, easterly jet streams in the Southern Hemisphere propagate at rates even faster than the westward ones. According to cubanology.com (http://cubanology.com/Articles/Influential_Jet_Stream.htm) the winds in a jet stream regularly reaches speeds of over 400 mph. Airliners use these jet streams to faster reach a destination.

This variable contributes significantly to the travel time between Sydney and Johannedburg. While an airplane may have a rated cruise speed it can provide under its own power, the extreme winds of the jet stream adds enormously to the actual velocity of the plane over the surface of the Earth.

For every moment the plane stays in the jet stream it is being accelerated until it matches the surrounding velocity and momentum of the air around it. From there the plane can use the limits of its power to travel faster than the jet stream. Thus, six hours of travel time between Sydney and Johannedburg becomes extremely possible.

In general, the Flat Earth Society has found that winds are strongest just under the tropopause. If two air masses of different temperatures meet, the resulting pressure difference is highest along the interface.

These facts are a consequence of the thermal wind relation. The balance of forces on an atmospheric parcel in the vertical direction is primarily between the pressure gradient and the force of gravitation by acceleration is a balance referred to as hydrostatic. In the horizontal, the dominant balance outside of the tropics is between the Coriolis effect and the pressure gradient is a balance referred to as geostrophic.

Given both hydrostatic and geostrophic balance, the Flat Earth Society derives the thermal wind relation: the vertical derivative of the horizontal wind is proportional to the horizontal temperature gradient. The sense of the relation is such that temperatures decreasing polewards implies that winds develop a larger eastward component as one moves upwards. Therefore, the strong eastward moving jet streams are in part a simple consequence of the fact that the equator is warmer than the poles.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Loard Z on January 17, 2008, 02:25:37 PM
yes, superfast jet streams for the win!!!

Tom just keeps on pulling out the wins today.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Roundy the Truthinessist on January 17, 2008, 02:29:29 PM
It's been a while since I so thoroughly pwn'd Bishop.  I had forgotten how satisfying it feels.  ;D
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Roundy the Truthinessist on January 17, 2008, 02:31:32 PM
Dogplatter's silence on the matter thus far is another win for me.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 17, 2008, 02:33:06 PM
Aaaah, no. So, meteorologists can't detect these special jet streams...why? They detect the normal ones, but they don't detect these? Nice.

But really, nice work on the Bullshit. It's amazing that this jet stream didn't exist until proof came along. It's amazing. May I ask one question? What about the return trip?

JNB    Johannesburg    QF 64    Qantas Airways    2:35 PM    3:06 PM       T-1    Landed
31 min    744    
JNB    Johannesburg    SA 7700^    South African Airways    2:35 PM    3:06 PM       T-1    Landed
31 min    744    

Only 31 minutes late.

16 hours off now. Pfffft... LOL

Two way jet streams? HAHAHAHA!!!!! You're right Roundy. I had forgotten how hilarious it feels.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 17, 2008, 02:39:00 PM
Bumped for Tom's latest hilarity. ;D
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Tom Bishop on January 17, 2008, 02:40:34 PM
Quote
Aaaah, no. So, meteorologists can't detect these special jet streams...why? They detect the normal ones, but they don't detect these? Nice.

Cubanology.com tells us that the Jetstreams are 400 mph. They list their sources right on the page I linked.

Quote
But really, nice work on the Bullshit. It's amazing that this jet stream didn't exist until proof came along. It's amazing. I might ask one question. What about the return trip?

There are both Eastwardly and Westwardly moving Jet Streams in the Southern Hemisphere. Pilots purposelessly use them to faster reach a destination.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 17, 2008, 02:42:14 PM
So every single time, without noticing it? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAH! Nobody every hits the wrong jet stream and comes 16 hours late? HAHAHA! You fail, and I think this constitutes an extremely valid proof for RE. Not to mention that these jet streams go magically from Johannesburg to Sydney? HAHAHA
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Tom Bishop on January 17, 2008, 02:43:21 PM
Quote
So every single time, without noticing it?

Uh, pilots purposely use the jet streams to faster reach a destination. That's why they're called "jet" streams.

Edit: Typo.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 17, 2008, 02:44:42 PM
Quote
So every single time, without noticing it?

Uh, pilots purposelessly use the jet streams to faster reach a destination. Did you drop out of High School?

Did you? Check the definition of purposeless. Then come back later.

EDIT: Tom fixed typo
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: James on January 17, 2008, 02:50:04 PM
Dogplatter's silence on the matter thus far is another win for me.

Sorry man, genuinely just didn't check this thread.

In response to the OP, I don't know. People change their minds about stuff. I change my mind about things, it's a perfectly reasonable thing to do. I'm an agnostic on Tom.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Roundy the Truthinessist on January 17, 2008, 02:50:43 PM
Fair enough.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 17, 2008, 02:51:54 PM
About the "jet streams", no-one notices that their instruments read faster? Furthermore, aren't you asking us to accept a pretty odd coincidence that things turn out exactly in support of a RE? You're asking us to believe that both nature and humanity is working against FE, and that only you and a few others know the truth?  ::)
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Roundy the Truthinessist on January 17, 2008, 02:54:38 PM
Of course, if it was just a matter of Tom changing his mind, he wouldn't have claimed to have never thought the conspiracy was intended to cover up the shape of the earth, and he wouldn't have felt the need to rationalize the contradictions that have been thrown in his face.  Just wanted to get that out there.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Colonel Gaydafi on January 17, 2008, 02:58:05 PM
wait I figured it out. The guy that used to 'play' Tom quit or got fired or whatever so now there's a new guy who wasn't quite brought up to speed on Tom's beliefs.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 17, 2008, 02:59:08 PM
Eureka! ^^ She has it!

EDIT: Correction. My bad. Just thought you'd put general lesbian if you know...my bad...:D
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Colonel Gaydafi on January 17, 2008, 02:59:56 PM
Ahem. She. Thank you very much.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Roundy the Truthinessist on January 17, 2008, 03:01:20 PM
Gayer just wants to throw us off the scent.  Everybody knows that he's actually Tom Bishop.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 17, 2008, 03:01:52 PM
^^That is also possible ;D
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Colonel Gaydafi on January 17, 2008, 03:02:43 PM
That's it, you're both off my christmas card list!  >:(
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Roundy the Truthinessist on January 17, 2008, 03:03:35 PM
Oh come on, I said it out of love!  ;D
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 17, 2008, 03:04:01 PM
Couldn't resist, mate :D

At any rate, Tom has lost this dispute...predictably. So go ahead and derail this thread :D
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Colonel Gaydafi on January 17, 2008, 03:07:01 PM
I've lost the will to derail this thread. I am too upset.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Roundy the Truthinessist on January 17, 2008, 03:08:50 PM
I'm afraid it's too late anyway.  You've accomplished your primary objective.  :(
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 17, 2008, 03:10:37 PM
Not if I have anything to say about it. Tom! I want more entertainment! Why does no-one notice the fact that their plane is traveling twice its normal speed! And what makes you think that simply because the wind is at 400 mph that means the plane will have its speed increased by that much as well. And why does everything seem to turn out just in favor of RE?

EDIT^^: Success! I have snatched victory from the jaws of well...Gayer.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Tom Bishop on January 17, 2008, 03:14:09 PM
Quote
Not if I have anything to say about it. Tom! I want more entertainment! Why does no-one notice the fact that their plane is traveling twice its normal speed!

Because the speedometer of an aircraft can only measure the output of the engines, not the velocity of the medium.

For example, would a car's speedometer notice that it is going any faster if it was driving on a highway sized treadmill?

Quote
And what makes you think that simply because the wind is at 400 mph that means the plane will have its speed increased by that much as well.

A: The entire medium is moving and the plane's engines are pushing off of that medium.

Quote
And why does everything seem to turn out just in favor of RE?

It doesn't.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 17, 2008, 03:17:44 PM
Nowadays the speedometer is GPS based(I'm waiting for what I know is coming, Tom :D), meaning it calculates windspeed as well. Furthermore, put a lead ball in a jet of water, mkay? Now, does the lead ball move at the same speed? I didn't think so.

Yes it does. The timing works out perfectly for RE. Coincidence? Besides, pilots never realize this? So, they purposefully head into a jet stream, right? And nobody accounts for this in their calculations for timing? What, is everyone but you an idiot?

EDIT: Oh, and plus, the jetstream, according to wiki, affects commercial planes by 30 minutes over the distance of the United states, which is, multiplied across to the distance we're talking about 1.5-2 hours. You're still 6 hours short. Not to mention that the way the strong jet streams form, cannot work both ways. Read the wikipedia page for jetstream. Oh, I know, these jetstreams are special!
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Tom Bishop on January 17, 2008, 03:22:45 PM
Quote
Nowadays the speedometer is GPS based,

Actually, it's not.

http://travel.howstuffworks.com/question597.htm

Quote
Furthermore, put a lead ball in a jet of water, mkay? Now, does the lead ball move at the same speed? I didn't think so.

The led ball is scraping against the bottom of the tube, creating friction.

Now try the analogy with a toy boat in a stream of water.

Quote
Yes it does. The timing works out perfectly for RE. Coincidence?

Despite using the jetstream the plane was still late, remember?

Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: TheEngineer on January 17, 2008, 03:23:01 PM
Because the speedometer of an aircraft can only measure the output of the engines, not the velocity of the medium.
Sorry, but no.  It does measure the velocity of the medium.  Well, technically, it measures the pressure, but derives the velocity.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 17, 2008, 03:25:56 PM
Quote
Nowadays the speedometer is GPS based,

Actually, it's not.

http://travel.howstuffworks.com/question597.htm

Quote
Furthermore, put a lead ball in a jet of water, mkay? Now, does the lead ball move at the same speed? I didn't think so.

The led ball is scraping against the bottom of the tube, creating friction.

Now try the analogy with a toy boat in a stream of water.

Quote
Yes it does. The timing works out perfectly for RE. Coincidence?

Despite using the jetstream the plane was still late, remember?



By 30 minutes. Far from what you need. Furthermore, read engy's post. And thirdly, the toy boat is a bad analogy, because the boat floats without power. Now try that with the boat in mid air.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 17, 2008, 03:31:03 PM
Oh, and

Quote from: Wikipedia

The wind speeds vary according to the temperature gradient, averaging 30 knots (55 km/h / 35 mph) in summer and 65 knots (120 km/h / 75 mph) in winter


So, they average 75 mph. Hardly what you need. Unless these jet streams are special ::)
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: NTheGreat on January 17, 2008, 03:42:04 PM
Impressive. You've strung together a rickety structure of ideas to shift your planes around.

Now all you have to do is explain how cargo ships do it. And how transpacific and lower transatlantic cables cope with the larger distances. And how GPS systems are programed. Plus how maps of the seabed are generated. Also how southern weather systems are predicted.

There's bound to be a few more things, but those can start you off.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 17, 2008, 03:45:03 PM
Yes, indeed, very impressive. However, they don't hold water. Still, Impressive. Most impressive. Well, Tom? Get to work. In addition to the above, you have to explain why your jet stream average 5 times the speed of the most powerful jet streams. New weather phenomenon, courtesy of Tom Bishop. Oh, and why meteorologists don't detect your special jet stream. Good luck :P
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Loard Z on January 17, 2008, 03:49:21 PM
Tom already knows the answers to all your questions, and the relevant drivel will, I'm sure, arrive soon.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 17, 2008, 03:49:49 PM
Tom already knows the answers to all your questions, and the relevant drivel will, I'm sure, arrive soon.

I look forward to it :D

Give him time though, he's probably exhausted from having to make up that much drivel in one day.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Tom Bishop on January 17, 2008, 04:25:30 PM
Quote
Sorry, but no.  It does measure the velocity of the medium.

Only from the plane's Frame of Reference.

Quote
By 30 minutes. Far from what you need. Furthermore, read engy's post. And thirdly, the toy boat is a bad analogy, because the boat floats without power. Now try that with the boat in mid air.

Boats don't fly in the air.

Quote
Now all you have to do is explain how cargo ships do it. And how transpacific and lower transatlantic cables cope with the larger distances. And how GPS systems are programed. Plus how maps of the seabed are generated. Also how southern weather systems are predicted.

Actually, since you have presented zero data suggesting a Round Earth, I don't.

Quote
Yes, indeed, very impressive. However, they don't hold water. Still, Impressive. Most impressive. Well, Tom? Get to work. In addition to the above, you have to explain why your jet stream average 5 times the speed of the most powerful jet streams.

I've already cited a source which says that the jet streams are 400 mph on page four.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 17, 2008, 05:05:28 PM
Whether a jet stream is capable of reaching 400 MPH is as undisputed as it is irrelevant. Average speed matters to a plane. You cited a source stating fact A. I cited a source stating fact B. Fact B matters for our purposes. Fact A does not.

And WTF with the FOR bullshit, relativity doesn't apply here.

The boat thing was kind of a joke. Glad to see you noticed, though.

Glad to have you back Tom.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: TheEngineer on January 17, 2008, 05:12:14 PM
Quote
Sorry, but no.  It does measure the velocity of the medium.
Only from the plane's Frame of Reference.
What? 
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: TheEngineer on January 17, 2008, 05:12:40 PM
You know you want to, Tom... Did we make you run away? 8)
Please stop doing this.  It is getting very annoying.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 17, 2008, 05:13:35 PM
Fine, fine, but I knew he was watching the thread and not posting :D
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: eric bloedow on January 17, 2008, 05:58:49 PM
ok, here's one:

i've read that commercial airplanes don't usually take off with full fuel tanks. why? because the weight of the fuel affects fuel efficiency! add in how much jet fuel costs-more than gas for your car!-and it becomes certain that someone would notice how much fuel was actually being used!

reminds me of a movie-i wish i could remember the name-which was based on a true story:

a jetliner ran completely out of fuel and had to make a landing at an old, abandoned airfield, because the ground crew had only loaded half as much as they needed.
why? because they screwed up the liter/gallon conversion math!
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 17, 2008, 06:57:29 PM
Good point. Bump?
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Germanicus on January 17, 2008, 07:32:33 PM
Maybe Tom will agree with the map on his FE bible

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Flat-Earth-History-Infamous-Idea/dp/140504702X (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Flat-Earth-History-Infamous-Idea/dp/140504702X)
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 17, 2008, 11:18:16 PM
Bump. Please tell me someone has something better than Tom's magic jet streams...
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: NTheGreat on January 18, 2008, 01:23:33 AM
Quote
Actually, since you have presented zero data suggesting a Round Earth, I don't.

What data do I need to provide? bulk orders sent by cargo ship around the world don't turn up several weeks late. Submarine cables don't have gaps in them hundreds of kilometers long. GPS systems don't throw out errors when they find that all the satellites seem to be orbiting around the South pole, or following a ring above our heads. Maps of the seabed don't have huge, continent sized gaps in them and weather forecasters don't find that their weather systems are several thousand miles out of place.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: divito the truthist on January 18, 2008, 04:42:01 AM
What data do I need to provide? bulk orders sent by cargo ship around the world don't turn up several weeks late. Submarine cables don't have gaps in them hundreds of kilometers long. GPS systems don't throw out errors when they find that all the satellites seem to be orbiting around the South pole, or following a ring above our heads. Maps of the seabed don't have huge, continent sized gaps in them and weather forecasters don't find that their weather systems are several thousand miles out of place.

You assume a lot with this.

Also, meteorologists don't require satellites.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: NTheGreat on January 18, 2008, 05:18:59 AM
Quote
You assume a lot with this.

I'm not sure what you mean. I'm assuming that the majority of cargo makes it to it's destination when predicted, but FE models are assuming that they don't. I'm assuming that submarine cables are the size that the companies predicted using a RE model, but FET is assuming that they aren't, and the companies are either aware of the planets shape, or unaware of the large budget defect it caused. Any assumptions I'm making are no worse than the assumptions that a FEer would make.


Quote
Also, meteorologists don't require satellites.

I don't recall suggesting they do (Not that they don't, I'm fully aware that there's plenty of meteorological satellites up there). I'm more referring to the fact that there's either a whole lot more sea or a whole lot more land in a FE model, and this is going to result either in the weather behaving in a whole different way, or hot and cold fronts not being where they are expected to be as they cross over large bodies of land/water.

I think the point I'm trying to make is that changing the shape of the planet isn't a simple matter of faking a few photos of it and producing a few incorrect experiments. A fair portion of the world relies on the maps we have being accurate, and the only way the maps we have can easily be accurate is if the planet is round.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: divito the truthist on January 18, 2008, 05:35:16 AM
I'm not sure what you mean. I'm assuming that the majority of cargo makes it to it's destination when predicted, but FE models are assuming that they don't. I'm assuming that submarine cables are the size that the companies predicted using a RE model, but FET is assuming that they aren't, and the companies are either aware of the planets shape, or unaware of the large budget defect it caused. Any assumptions I'm making are no worse than the assumptions that a FEer would make.

Ok:

bulk orders sent by cargo ship around the world don't turn up several weeks late. Submarine cables don't have gaps in them hundreds of kilometers long. GPS systems don't throw out errors when they find that all the satellites seem to be orbiting around the South pole, or following a ring above our heads. Maps of the seabed don't have huge, continent sized gaps in them and weather forecasters don't find that their weather systems are several thousand miles out of place.

You're assumption is that all of these things need to occur as if to prove your point. What basis for each scenario are you using for your assumptions?

I don't recall suggesting they do (Not that they don't, I'm fully aware that there's plenty of meteorological satellites up there). I'm more referring to the fact that there's either a whole lot more sea or a whole lot more land in a FE model, and this is going to result either in the weather behaving in a whole different way, or hot and cold fronts not being where they are expected to be as they cross over large bodies of land/water.

On inhabitable portions of the Earth, there isn't that much extra water. I can't imagine, without any data, that having some extra ocean would cause extremely drastic changes to what we already experiencel; chaos theory or not.

I think the point I'm trying to make is that changing the shape of the planet isn't a simple matter of faking a few photos of it and producing a few incorrect experiments. A fair portion of the world relies on the maps we have being accurate, and the only way the maps we have can easily be accurate is if the planet is round.

I don't believe anyone has claimed that it's a simple matter. I wouldn't say they can "easily be accurate" because if the Earth is round, projections are used for maps.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Optimus Prime on January 18, 2008, 06:15:46 AM
This is the same thing I think I've gone over before, but the problem you're running into here also is mapping problems that can be shown between two points, and drastically between three points with variable distances.

Take the known distance from wherever... I'll pick Orlando, FL to Los Angeles, CA. Now I want to go from Los Angeles to Tokyo, Japan.
Guess what? On the FE model... the distances are already way off, and by the time you've "gotten to Japan"... it's not even where it should  be.

It's not an assumption. We have a round earth based coordinate system. we can go from a presently mapped and charted location to another without issue. Let's say that you go ahead, and do your best to work that out so it works on an FE map right? Well, now your trip to Japan is even more screwed up by having adjust the other landmass(es).

Still not convinced? Ok, then make one or two more stops and it is absolutely obvious that any sort of FE map falls apart. There is no way to arrange the continents so we can travel our known distances around the globe. If anyone wants to refute road maps / pilots, etc, then just find some of the small-timers / individual cartographers and you'll end up with the same results.

Sorry, but the mapping one I can't really let it by.
- Optimus
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: divito the truthist on January 18, 2008, 06:26:00 AM
I'm sorry, but no one has any data showing the discrepancy with the curved FE flight paths. Going of hypotheticals and common sense is the reason so many REers have problems in the debate.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Optimus Prime on January 18, 2008, 06:36:22 AM
I'm sorry, but no one has any data showing the discrepancy with the curved FE flight paths. Going of hypotheticals and common sense is the reason so many REers have problems in the debate.

Discuss this. How can you *not* inherently have data showing this discrepancy. If FE is not willing to produce a map, but is willing to concede that it looks somewhat like a UN logo... there are still problems.

If you make 3 points on a dome, then squish it flat... it doesn't work out the same.

Could you explain your impressions of this or how that / any map data is hypothetical?

Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: NTheGreat on January 18, 2008, 07:59:36 AM
Quote
You're assumption is that all of these things need to occur as if to prove your point. What basis for each scenario are you using for your assumptions?

Basis for Cargo ship delays: Distance between ports is unknown, as map would be inaccurate as lines of latitude in southern hemisphere are much longer than expected, and landmasses are assumed to be the same size as is currently believed, thus at least one of the bodies of water is going to much larger than expected, and cargo ships crossing it will take much longer to cross it. Alternatively, the bodies of water are the same size as currently believed and at least one of the land masses is much larger than expected, and going around them, or land based cargo transport going across them will take much longer than expected.

Basis for Submarine cables: Again, problems with the size of the bodies of water or land. There's no way you can run cables from Spain down to the Caribbean, around the coast of North and South America, across to Hawaii, down to New Zealand, up to India, down to South Africa and back around to Europe without finding a problem somewhere.

Basis for GPS Problems: A GPS signal contains information on the time, and the position of the satellite in it's orbit. Having the satellites all orbiting in a ring above our heads along the equator has the problem that none of the satellites will be where they say they are, and thus the GPS receiver won't be able to calculate it's position accurately based on the time delay between the signals received. Much the same problem with having the GPS system ground based, with the added problem of the signal used rapidly attenuating in the Atmosphere.

Basis for gap filled maps of the seabed: The sea's a completely different size to what's expected. Unless the land masses are stretched out of proportion, where the problem with maps of the land being gap-filled comes up.

Basis for Weather problems: A weather front moving around in the southern hemisphere is going to have a completely unknown distance to move, so there's no way we could predict when it's going to turn up. Much the same problem with hurricanes.

I would think these things are fairly obvious. I shouldn't have to explain each one individually...


Quote
wouldn't say they can "easily be accurate" because if the Earth is round, projections are used for maps.

Not everyone uses a map of the whole planet with a Mercator projection. Just because projections exist doesn't mean people use them as a reliable global navigational aid.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 18, 2008, 09:37:49 AM
I'm sorry, but no one has any data showing the discrepancy with the curved FE flight paths. Going of hypotheticals and common sense is the reason so many REers have problems in the debate.

Furthermore, it isn't just about curved paths. It's about the paths being 3 times longer, and taking 3 times long, which isn't observed, as I proved with those flights. I think that the problem is FE'ers, claiming that my logic is faulty, when I point out that the flight should take 8 extra hours under FE, but it doesn't. Tom invented magic jet streams, miraculously running from airport to airport. Is that what you claim?
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 18, 2008, 10:11:27 AM
(http://img37.picoodle.com/img/img37/4/1/18/t_FEProofm_2bb5c6e.png) (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/4/1/18/f_FEProofm_2bb5c6e.png&srv=img37)
Click to view larger picture


Look at this. The actual distance between Johannesburg and Sydney is less than 7000 miles. Now, using a scale measurement of the distance of New York - London which is around 3500 miles, I got a scale key of 3000 miles. Extrapolating this upon another person's FE map, which actually shrinks the distance because it doesn't go all the way around the circle, I got that the distance from Johannesburg -- Sydney according to FE is equal to over 5 times as long, because the straight line equivalent(going over Asia a bit) is almost 4 times long. Even with Tom's magic jet streams, which would only double the speed of the aircraft, the plane won't make it. Bear in mind that my estimates are conservative, since the map only goes half-way around the circumference of the Earth, so Tom's jet streams don't work, unless he increases their speed to over 1500 MPH :D .

EDIT: I know the picture's too small, bear with me as I work image hosting issues out. Fixed. Click to see larger image now.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 18, 2008, 11:20:40 AM
Bump. I was really hoping, Engy, divito, or Dogplatter had an answer.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: divito the truthist on January 18, 2008, 11:33:59 AM
Discuss this. How can you *not* inherently have data showing this discrepancy. If FE is not willing to produce a map, but is willing to concede that it looks somewhat like a UN logo... there are still problems.

If you make 3 points on a dome, then squish it flat... it doesn't work out the same.

Could you explain your impressions of this or how that / any map data is hypothetical?

A flat Earth map isn't hypothetical? Could you point me to a scale version of one?

Basis for Cargo ship delays: Distance between ports is unknown, as map would be inaccurate as lines of latitude in southern hemisphere are much longer than expected, and landmasses are assumed to be the same size as is currently believed, thus at least one of the bodies of water is going to much larger than expected, and cargo ships crossing it will take much longer to cross it. Alternatively, the bodies of water are the same size as currently believed and at least one of the land masses is much larger than expected, and going around them, or land based cargo transport going across them will take much longer than expected.

The largest differences in distance would be in the far Southern Hemisphere. How many cargo ships are out there? What are their routes?

Basis for Submarine cables: Again, problems with the size of the bodies of water or land. There's no way you can run cables from Spain down to the Caribbean, around the coast of North and South America, across to Hawaii, down to New Zealand, up to India, down to South Africa and back around to Europe without finding a problem somewhere.

It's possible, but how many would chalk that up to a flat Earth?

Basis for GPS Problems: A GPS signal contains information on the time, and the position of the satellite in it's orbit. Having the satellites all orbiting in a ring above our heads along the equator has the problem that none of the satellites will be where they say they are, and thus the GPS receiver won't be able to calculate it's position accurately based on the time delay between the signals received. Much the same problem with having the GPS system ground based, with the added problem of the signal used rapidly attenuating in the Atmosphere.

Satellites aren't up there according to FET.

Basis for gap filled maps of the seabed: The sea's a completely different size to what's expected. Unless the land masses are stretched out of proportion, where the problem with maps of the land being gap-filled comes up.

And who notices this?

Basis for Weather problems: A weather front moving around in the southern hemisphere is going to have a completely unknown distance to move, so there's no way we could predict when it's going to turn up. Much the same problem with hurricanes.

Apparently meteorologists are always right in your area? Sorry, but weather isn't that simple of a system.

Not everyone uses a map of the whole planet with a Mercator projection. Just because projections exist doesn't mean people use them as a reliable global navigational aid.

Clearly, maps of a small local area won't have to be projected, but I can't imagine many not taking into account the curvature.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 18, 2008, 11:49:53 AM
About a scale map, no-one produces one, because its impossible. I challenge anyone to make a scale map of the FE, and have it work properly. And about GPS, engy says they are ground/stratellite based, which is why you can go to the middle of the ocean and have it work still. If he didn't, FE could easily be disproved with a simple trick, going into the ocean with a GPS device. And no-one answered the point on planes.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: NTheGreat on January 18, 2008, 12:09:47 PM
Quote
The largest differences in distance would be in the far Southern Hemisphere. How many cargo ships are out there? What are their routes?

Well, from what I can tell, the main routes in the southern hemisphere are trips going between South Africa and South America, with a few going Between South Africa and Australia. Routes from Panama to Australia are also fairly prominent. A few Routes from North America and Europe seem to drop down into the Southern hemisphere.


Quote
It's possible, but how many would chalk that up to a flat Earth?

What else would they chalk it up to? Inaccurate maps, perhaps, which they'll no doubt complain about to the private cartographer they hired, and then try to sue in a high profile court case. Thankfully no problems such as that seem to have arisen however, which suggests they have a fairly god idea of the planet's layout.


Quote
Satellites aren't up there according to FET.

I know. But, as I mentioned, Ground based systems have much the same problem, with the added complexity of attenuating signals.


Quote
And who notices this?

Scientists and cartographers exploring and mapping the seabed, I expect.


Quote
Apparently meteorologists are always right in your area? Sorry, but weather isn't that simple of a system

They seem to be correct to a suitable accuracy. They can at least tell me where a large front is at the present moment, if not predict that well beyond the 3-4 day chaos barrier of the planets weather system.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: divito the truthist on January 18, 2008, 12:17:02 PM
Well, from what I can tell, the main routes in the southern hemisphere are trips going between South Africa and South America, with a few going Between South Africa and Australia. Routes from Panama to Australia are also fairly prominent. A few Routes from North America and Europe seem to drop down into the Southern hemisphere.

Well, I'll need to look at specific routes to notice where the discrepancy could be.

What else would they chalk it up to? Inaccurate maps, perhaps, which they'll no doubt complain about to the private cartographer they hired, and then try to sue in a high profile court case. Thankfully no problems such as that seem to have arisen however, which suggests they have a fairly god idea of the planet's layout.

Yes, inaccurate maps. The shape of the Earth would hardly come into question, and I'm very doubtful of a high-profile court case.

I know. But, as I mentioned, Ground based systems have much the same problem, with the added complexity of attenuating signals.

I can't speak to this, but maybe TheEngineer can.

Scientists and cartographers exploring and mapping the seabed, I expect.

How many are there?

They seem to be correct to a suitable accuracy. They can at least tell me where a large front is at the present moment, if not predict that well beyond the 3-4 day chaos barrier of the planets weather system.

Aye, and within what degree would a nautical mile add to the unpredictability? How about 50?
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 18, 2008, 12:23:38 PM
You guys seem to concede that there is a discrepancy there, but that it happens and for some reason, no-one notices. I ask again, what of planes? They certainly arrive on time, and Tom's jet streams have been disproved, so...why do planes get there on time?
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: NTheGreat on January 18, 2008, 12:31:57 PM
Quote
Well, I'll need to look at specific routes to notice where the discrepancy could be.

http://www.worldtradepress.com/maps/images/GiantPoliticalAtlanticPorts.jpg
The best I've been able to find from a quick search of Google images what this. You should be able to make out the shipping lanes.


Quote
Yes, inaccurate maps. The shape of the Earth would hardly come into question, and I'm very doubtful of a high-profile court case.

I would imagine that the cartography company might be a little concerned as to why the maps are inaccurate. I wouldn't be surprised if they found the Earth to measure out as flat beforehand.


Quote
How many are there?

Typing 'ocean mapping' seems to bring up a fair few groups that are mapping the oceans.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: divito the truthist on January 18, 2008, 01:23:53 PM
You guys seem to concede that there is a discrepancy there, but that it happens and for some reason, no-one notices. I ask again, what of planes? They certainly arrive on time, and Tom's jet streams have been disproved, so...why do planes get there on time?

I know there will be a difference in the Southern Hemisphere. I'm not convinced that there will be much of a difference at all in the NH. Until then, I can't really say much to anyone's approval without actual data and/or math.

I'm pretty sure Trekky made a flight plan map showing the paths. I don't believe any of the distances magically changed.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 18, 2008, 01:29:04 PM
OK, lets assume you're right and the Northern hemisphere's difference is negligible. There's no need for much math. All projections of an FE show the tropics concentric, so the distance must be increased. I calculate its anywhere between a factor of 3-7 times as long from South Africa to Australia. Yet I provided concrete proof that the flights(I gave flight numbers) departed and arrived approximately on time, in both directions. Are you telling me you think there are two-way jet streams running at 1500 MPH, like Tom does?
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 18, 2008, 02:25:44 PM
Bump
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: divito the truthist on January 18, 2008, 02:31:02 PM
No, there are no jet streams like that. Do you have a plotted path for that flight? It's hard to imagine it on a flat Earth without knowing their headings.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 18, 2008, 02:32:14 PM
Yeah, I do. I think a page ago there is a small image I posted. Click on it for the expanded version, which looks a lot better. Take a look.

EDIT: Here

(http://img37.picoodle.com/img/img37/4/1/18/t_FEProofm_2bb5c6e.png) (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/4/1/18/f_FEProofm_2bb5c6e.png&srv=img37)
Click to view larger picture


Look at this. The actual distance between Johannesburg and Sydney is less than 7000 miles. Now, using a scale measurement of the distance of New York - London which is around 3500 miles, I got a scale key of 3000 miles. Extrapolating this upon another person's FE map, which actually shrinks the distance because it doesn't go all the way around the circle, I got that the distance from Johannesburg -- Sydney according to FE is equal to over 5 times as long, because the straight line equivalent(going over Asia a bit) is almost 4 times long. Even with Tom's magic jet streams, which would only double the speed of the aircraft, the plane won't make it. Bear in mind that my estimates are conservative, since the map only goes half-way around the circumference of the Earth, so Tom's jet streams don't work, unless he increases their speed to over 1500 MPH :D .

EDIT: I know the picture's too small, bear with me as I work image hosting issues out. Fixed. Click to see larger image now.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: divito the truthist on January 18, 2008, 02:35:22 PM
The straight line is the flight path?
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 18, 2008, 02:38:05 PM
No. The straight line is the closest possible fit(according to FE), while the curved line was the actual fit. I used the closest fit because my program could not calculate the length of a curved line(it would be longer), so, since the best fit line was more than enough to prove my point, I used it for calculations. I used the distance between New York to London as the scale for 3000 miles(which is conservative, since it's actually closer to 3500), and even with all this conservativeness, it still, is not possible. The best fit line, is still almost 4x longer than it should be. You need a jetstream of 1500 MPH to make that happen, and I have flights from before, that I showed.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 18, 2008, 07:25:27 PM
Sigh. No-one?
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: TheEngineer on January 18, 2008, 08:06:20 PM
One would think the hint would be well received after the 20th bump... ::)
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Colonel Gaydafi on January 18, 2008, 08:06:50 PM
Sigh. No-one?

I'll argue with you if you want
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 18, 2008, 09:25:06 PM
On the subject? I'm honestly wondering if any of the staunch FE believers have anything to say? Not engy? Divito just asked for  clarification, and then erm...left. What about Dogplatter? Sadly enough, it seems as though they ignore this topic in favor of keeping their beliefs.

If I'm not mistaken, you're an RE'er, right? So...what argument can be offered? Apart from Tom's 1500 MPH jet streams that conveniently start and end on all major airports. :D
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: TheEngineer on January 18, 2008, 10:43:46 PM
On the subject? I'm honestly wondering if any of the staunch FE believers have anything to say? Not engy?
Nope.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Colonel Gaydafi on January 18, 2008, 10:53:14 PM
On the subject? I'm honestly wondering if any of the staunch FE believers have anything to say? Not engy? Divito just asked for  clarification, and then erm...left. What about Dogplatter? Sadly enough, it seems as though they ignore this topic in favor of keeping their beliefs.

If I'm not mistaken, you're an RE'er, right? So...what argument can be offered? Apart from Tom's 1500 MPH jet streams that conveniently start and end on all major airports. :D

Engy is an RE'er and so is Divito. And I don't believe in anything so I'm quite happy to argue anything absurd.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Optimus Prime on January 18, 2008, 11:57:13 PM
Discuss this. How can you *not* inherently have data showing this discrepancy. If FE is not willing to produce a map, but is willing to concede that it looks somewhat like a UN logo... there are still problems.

If you make 3 points on a dome, then squish it flat... it doesn't work out the same.

Could you explain your impressions of this or how that / any map data is hypothetical?

A flat Earth map isn't hypothetical? Could you point me to a scale version of one?


Not sure how you misinterpreted the above statement, but to put it differently...
FE can't produce a good map (we agree on that, don't know how that wasn't expressed)
To prove this point, simply take 3 points or more on a dome then flatten it... all measurements are now off. This is a simple basis for showing how known measurements and distances on the RE just won't work in a FE model. Period.
Therefore... why or how are you coming up with the idea that current maps or distance data is merely hypothetical? Even if some areas of the globe aren't regularly travelled, many, MANY areas are, and are well documented by ground, sea, and air.
To make a blanket statement of that sort is odd. If nothing else I could concede to some of the globe, however on another note, if nothing else... there are all the major ports of call that are irrefutable what the distance to point ABCD are, etc.

Hope that makes things more clear.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: shmaller on January 19, 2008, 10:30:57 PM
I don't mean to break up the party, guys, but you let Tom get away! As soon as you stuck 1500 mph jetstreams in his face, he left! Oh, and fshy, I think the reason that the staunch FE believers have nothing to say is...well, they probably have nothing that can retort to the vast amount of logic spat into their faces. No offense, dogplatter, all you other FEers, (I do want some offense to go to Tom, however) but you guys got pwned.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Roundy the Truthinessist on January 20, 2008, 12:21:15 AM
No offense, engy, dogplatter, (I do want some offense to go to Tom, however) but you guys got pwned.

You might think so...
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: shmaller on January 20, 2008, 02:10:19 AM
No offense, engy, dogplatter, (I do want some offense to go to Tom, however) but you guys got pwned.

You might think so...
Uh, what might I think? That they got pwned? Looking back on the substantial evidence towards a round earth in this thread, you still don't think that they got proven...wrong?
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: divito the truthist on January 20, 2008, 05:43:22 AM
Therefore... why or how are you coming up with the idea that current maps or distance data is merely hypothetical? Even if some areas of the globe aren't regularly travelled, many, MANY areas are, and are well documented by ground, sea, and air.
To make a blanket statement of that sort is odd. If nothing else I could concede to some of the globe, however on another note, if nothing else... there are all the major ports of call that are irrefutable what the distance to point ABCD are, etc.

I meant that the assumptions and suggestions for distances on a flat Earth versus an RE is hypothetical; as there is no accurate data or map in which to base the argument on.

Uh, what might I think? That they got pwned? Looking back on the substantial evidence towards a round earth in this thread, you still don't think that they got proven...wrong?

1. No.
2. TheEngineer isn't an FEer.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Colonel Gaydafi on January 20, 2008, 09:00:34 AM
I already said Engy isn't an FE'er. No one listens to me :(
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Midnight on January 20, 2008, 09:14:50 AM
Quote
oh, come on, tom! you have repeatedly, no, continuously, accused every single pilot, ship navigator, mapmaker, etc, of conspiring to make people think the world is round!

I've never claimed any of those things. Care to dig up a quote?

Every post you have pretty much said more than 2 sentences in.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 20, 2008, 10:29:32 AM
Therefore... why or how are you coming up with the idea that current maps or distance data is merely hypothetical? Even if some areas of the globe aren't regularly travelled, many, MANY areas are, and are well documented by ground, sea, and air.
To make a blanket statement of that sort is odd. If nothing else I could concede to some of the globe, however on another note, if nothing else... there are all the major ports of call that are irrefutable what the distance to point ABCD are, etc.

I meant that the assumptions and suggestions for distances on a flat Earth versus an RE is hypothetical; as there is no accurate data or map in which to base the argument on.


That's because FE'ers won't create one, because its impossible to create a FE to match the data. It's about math. How on Earth can two concentric circles have the same circumference? That's impossible. Unless you're telling me it is possible, then I don't need data points. You are implying that, without data points, it's possible for two concentric circles to have the same circumference.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: shmaller on January 20, 2008, 12:45:55 PM
Uh, what might I think? That they got pwned? Looking back on the substantial evidence towards a round earth in this thread, you still don't think that they got proven...wrong?
1. No.
2. TheEngineer isn't an FEer.
1. I suppose you could argue with the fact that a large amount of this thread's information is hypothetical, but if someone would post an accurate FE map (actually, I think fshy did...) with two points on the world and compare it with the two points in the same place on the RE map, there must be a discrepancy. That cannot be argued.
2. Yeah, I know engy's an REer, I just got confused along the line, and when I read this again, I went, "what the hell was I thinking?".
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: The Terror on January 20, 2008, 12:48:19 PM
I already said Engy isn't an FE'er. No one listens to me :(

shut up you!
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 20, 2008, 06:19:24 PM
Sorry to bump, but...it's impulsive :D
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Colonel Gaydafi on January 20, 2008, 06:20:33 PM
you need help
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 20, 2008, 06:22:25 PM
So do you :D. Now, does anyone have any response? Any explanations? Do I have to drag Dogplatter into this? Engy and Divito pretty much concede this point, being RE'ers, Tom was Tom, Username also semi-conceded that this was a weak point in FE theory, and Dogplatter has been MIA. You say you are happy to argue, so do you have a counterargument that does not resemble something ridiculous Tom would say.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Colonel Gaydafi on January 20, 2008, 06:25:24 PM
Ok remind me what we're arguing about again? (I'd read it through but I'm playing poker)
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 20, 2008, 06:27:08 PM
How transatlantic and transpacific flights in the Southern hemisphere appear on time(which I proved, based on flight data), despite the fact that FE states that the distance is actually around 4 times longer than an RE map would indicate? Tom's two way jet stream argument fell apart when I showed that the jet streams would need to travel 1500 MPH, whereas the average speed of a jet stream is 75 MPH during this time of year.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Colonel Gaydafi on January 20, 2008, 06:30:07 PM
oh right. hmm thats a hard one, seems pretty indisuptable...

maybe time slows down in the sea...time always seems to go slower when you're out to sea after all


(ok thats as ridiculous as what Tom would say but meh)
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 20, 2008, 06:31:37 PM
Yeah, it is hard, and yes, that is something Tom would say. Actually, if Tom said that, it would be a new low for him, shocking as that is :D.

It is pretty tough to get around.... Mostly, I'm hoping for Dogplatter to show up. It seems like there are about 4 FE'ers here. Tom. Raa, Username, and Dogplatter. The first two wouldn't change their minds unless their god(Rowbotham in one case, God, in the other :P) came down from heaven and told them the Earth was round :P, Username admitted that that was a weak point in his theory, and temporarily conceded the point, and mostly, I'm bumping this for Dogplatter to show up. Still wondering how it's possible to argue with this.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Colonel Gaydafi on January 20, 2008, 06:33:40 PM
I'm gonna go with magic then.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 20, 2008, 06:34:27 PM
:D

Like I said in the last post, mostly waiting for Dogplatter.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Colonel Gaydafi on January 20, 2008, 06:42:53 PM
well keep waiting then
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: James on January 22, 2008, 02:14:21 PM
You won't agree with me when I say this, but your flight data does not come from impartial sources. Qantas Airways is a member of the OneWorld Alliance, an almost definite GlobCon offshoot. SAA is a not only a member of Star Alliance, OneWorld's older brother, but also a government-operated airline. SAA is pretty much wallowing in Conspiracy.

If you're wondering why airline cartels want to keep us believing the Copernican myth, consider the level of pollution caused by their fuel - it's insane, one of the highest contributors to planar warming discovered so far. These crooks know they're rotting the Ice Wall, they don't care - they just want immense sums of money so they can carry on their disgusting hedonism at the possible eventual expense of all life on Earth.

Quote from: the Church of Satan
Satan represents all of the so-called sins, as they all lead to physical, mental, or emotional gratification!

Sounds pretty much like the short-term, anti-environment coke-and-hookers attitude of the top GlobCon members.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v499/dogplatter/boeing666.png)

Below: Wolfgang Mayrhuber of Lufthansa (a Star Alliance Leader) brandishing what appears to be a modern reworking of the classic "satanic pitchfork".
(http://www.tribuneindia.com/2003/20030619/biz1.jpg)(http://sharpiron.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/devil-with-pitchfork.jpg)

"The Star Alliance" is also an anagram of "I'll cheer at Satan".

Ok, now I'm an atheist, so I don't actually believe in God or Satan. I do, as a consequence of my atheism, object to the intertwining of destructive religious practices with business, especially when the hedonistic impulses championed by said religion encourages its practitioners to lie and cheat humanity in order to fuel their rampant greed.

To sum up the point of my post, your flight times do not constitute legitimate evidence. I'm not saying that devil worshippers can't tell the truth, I'm just saying that Star Alliance and OneWorld both have a vested interest in lying about flight times.

Other supplementary material:


IMPORTANT:
From SAA's website:
Quote
South African Airways was now servicing every continent on the globe, except Antarctica.

Coincidence? I think not. SAA can blag fudging the numbers for some Southern Hemiplane flights, but if they tried to do Antarctica the maths just wouldn't work and people would cotton on.

Not quite as important:
(http://www.oneworld.com/images/homepage/gr_wta_winner_2007.jpg)
The OneWorld Alliance wins the Globularist Crime Award World Travel Award for a fifth year running. It's rigged. They pretty much always win these days.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 22, 2008, 02:18:47 PM
So, to sum up your argument, you hold that if I were to take that flight(which we know exists), and take a stopwatch with me, I would measure a 4x disturbance in time? That seems unlikely. You seem to be chalking another one up to conspiracy, and furthermore, those flight statistics are from Conducive Technology Corp. You seem to say that the airports say the plane has arrived, when actually, the plane hasn't. So what happens when somebody goes to pick up that person from the airport? Cloning services? :P

EDIT: About Antarctica, well, erm...there is no city there. Who in the hell would want to go there? You seem to have gone slightly off the deep end here, if I am to be frank Dogplatter.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: James on January 22, 2008, 02:26:00 PM
So, to sum up your argument, you hold that if I were to take that flight(which we know exists), and take a stopwatch with me, I would measure a 4x disturbance in time? That seems unlikely. You seem to be chalking another one up to conspiracy, and furthermore, those flight statistics are from Conducive Technology Corp. You seem to say that the airports say the plane has arrived, when actually, the plane hasn't. So what happens when somebody goes to pick up that person from the airport? Cloning services? :P

Oh no, I'm not saying the flights don't arrive in time. The flight proprieters blatantly fly faster to make up the difference, earn their filthy Conspiracy cash and appease their dark lord.

EDIT: About Antarctica, well, erm...there is no city there. Who in the hell would want to go there? You seem to have gone slightly off the deep end here, if I am to be frank Dogplatter.

Plenty of people want to go to Antarctica, it's one of the most beautiful continents on Earth.

Actually, your "no city" assertion raises a very interesting point which I'd like your opinion on if that's ok. Even in RE model, Antarctica is a vast continent with a wide variety of natural resources. It is also the only continent governed by an international treaty among various world powers which prevents ANY significant growth or development of the continent. If you don't mind a minor deviation, would you mind hazarding a guess as to why most major world powers want Antarctica to remain completely undeveloped and consequently devoid of people?
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 22, 2008, 02:30:57 PM
If the flights arrive on time, you'd be postulating the fastest passenger aircraft in existence. It would have to fly at greater than Mach 3 in order to make it, and the Concord didn't do that. You also postulate that no-one notices the sonic boom. It's an odd thing to say. Furthermore, a supersonic aircraft shaped like a Boeing 7xx? That's not aerodynamically smart.

About Antarctica, I doubt the governments have much good in mind. Either they want to claim stupid resources like oil for later, or they don't want people to notice the effects of global warming. I always found it stupid that governments were claiming Antarctica left and right, despite the fact they have no relation to it.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: James on January 22, 2008, 02:39:15 PM
If the flights arrive on time, you'd be postulating the fastest passenger aircraft in existence. It would have to fly at greater than Mach 3 in order to make it, and the Concord didn't do that. You also postulate that no-one notices the sonic boom. It's an odd thing to say. Furthermore, a supersonic aircraft shaped like a Boeing 7xx? That's not aerodynamically smart.

Mm, well let's not jump to any conclusions. All I'm saying is that the only sources you've actually cited in this argument have been member groups of a Satanic Round-Earth cult hell-bent on earning money at the expense of the entire population of Earth.

About Antarctica, I doubt the governments have much good in mind. Either they want to claim stupid resources like oil for later, or they don't want people to notice the effects of global warming. I always found it stupid that governments were claiming Antarctica left and right, despite the fact they have no relation to it.

Glad even a committed globularist can see the stupidity here. There's really no reason for them to all be desperately in on this yet completely neglect legitimate development. Or is there...
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 22, 2008, 02:44:26 PM
Now you're reverting back to your earlier suggestion, which was that the flight times might not actually be real. Which is it?

Secondly, I'm pretty sure they have an ulterior motive. My best guess is resources.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: James on January 22, 2008, 02:52:14 PM
Now you're reverting back to your earlier suggestion, which was that the flight times might not actually be real. Which is it?

No, I'm not reverting to any interpretation - read what I said. I mean exactly what I say:
Quote
All I'm saying is that the only sources you've actually cited in this argument have been member groups of a Satanic Round-Earth cult hell-bent on earning money at the expense of the entire population of Earth.

This could mean the planes are fast. This could mean they add extra fuel. This could mean they lie about the times.

Secondly, I'm pretty sure they have an ulterior motive. My best guess is resources.

Why are none of Them developing the continent in order to reap these resources? It's not like They're going to save them for later, that's simply not how They work. It's short term gratification in exchange for long-term sustainability. You pretty much admit that when you agree with me that they don't want people to know about planar warming. They're hiding something. I know what it is.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 22, 2008, 03:07:06 PM
Adding extra fuel won't help times. If they lie about times, how do people pick others up from the airport? You didn't answer the point about Mach 3. You, in essence, are postulating superfast, Mach 3+ planes. That's not disputed, it's what you postulate.

About resources, its quite simple, mastery of economics. They have oil right now, which they milk us for. If they develop those now, the price of oil will have to drop. If, however, they merely wait for Arabian oil to deplete, then they charge even more for it later. Maximize profits, minimize work. You seem to equate believing in a round earth with thinking corporations and governments are there for us. No, I think that if they possibly could pull this off, they would, but...they can't. It's too difficult, and they already have another, easier way to milk us for money...oil.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: James on January 22, 2008, 03:17:42 PM
Adding extra fuel won't help times. If they lie about times, how do people pick others up from the airport? You didn't answer the point about Mach 3. You, in essence, are postulating superfast, Mach 3+ planes. That's not disputed, it's what you postulate.

I'm not essentially postulating anything except exactly what I say.

Quote
All I'm saying is that the only sources you've actually cited in this argument have been member groups of a Satanic Round-Earth cult hell-bent on earning money at the expense of the entire population of Earth.

About resources, its quite simple, mastery of economics. They have oil right now, which they milk us for. If they develop those now, the price of oil will have to drop. If, however, they merely wait for Arabian oil to deplete, then they charge even more for it later. Maximize profits, minimize work. You seem to equate believing in a round earth with thinking corporations and governments are there for us. No, I think that if they possibly could pull this off, they would, but...they can't. It's too difficult, and they already have another, easier way to milk us for money...oil.

Who says it's oil? There's plenty of other useful stuff there. I don't mean to be rude, and so far your contributions have been admirable, but this whole oil conspiracy thing seems incredibly contrived. Why would the Con bother (let's for a second assume that the US military/coalition forces are at least vaguely interchangeable with some facet of the Conspiracy) sinking vast amounts of resources into expensive war over oil when they could get it from Antarctica (assuming it even is oil they're stockpiling over there). Sure, they get to charge a danger premium, and speculation based on such events skyrockets the price, but that's nothing compared to the resources it takes to do all the ridiculous stuff they're doing now. It'd be cheaper to drill Antarctic oil - and more profitable... (unless basically all pollutive world industry had a vested interest in the world not discovery that they would eventually cause the whole atmolayer to leak south and disappear forever).
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: James on January 22, 2008, 03:20:31 PM
By the way, I'm interested as to your reaction to my accusation that most international airlines are involved in a satanic cult. You seem to have rather skirted the issue and haven't yet openly denied it! Are you really comfortable just trusting the say-so of devil-worshipping greedmongers?
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 22, 2008, 03:21:29 PM
Look, its not conspiracy. I don't believe in conspiracy. It's just each company regarding its own interests. And btw, it looks contrived because...it is. I'm just pulling theories out of my rear end. I don't know anything, just throwing possibilities out the window.

About the main point...if you're not postulating Mach 3 planes, and you're not postulating lying about times...what are you postulating? It seems like (from my POV), you're doing a little dance between the two, not willing to put down either of them as your theory.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 22, 2008, 03:25:09 PM
By the way, I'm interested as to your reaction to my accusation that most international airlines are involved in a satanic cult. You seem to have rather skirted the issue and haven't yet openly denied it! Are you really comfortable just trusting the say-so of devil-worshipping greedmongers?

Actually, I didn't really have much to say. I honestly am shocked at you writing this. I kinda hoped you would let it drop, because...TBH...I find it the stupidest thing you have said on this forum. Devil worshipping? Anagrams? OK, please. So, said devil worshippers decided to reveal their purpose in their name? If I were going to start a club like that, I wouldn't make my name a stupid anagram. Trust me, you can make hilarious anagrams on presidential candidates names and so on.

You didn't give me a location of that picture, and god knows that a single pose of that picture can be taken so far out of context. Heck, that picture could have been of him joking about a satanic fork, for all I know. You're getting paranoid.

EDIT: I found this out about the picture:

Wolfgang Mayrhuber, newly appointed CEO of German airline Lufthansa AG, raises a steering unit of an aircraft after taking the position from Juergen Weber during Lufthansa's annual shareholders meeting in Cologne, on Wednesday. Outgoing CEO Weber said on Wednesday Europe's third largest passenger airline had identified ways to generate an additional one billion euros ($ 1.18 billion) in cash flow by the end of 2004. 1— Reuters

I can confirm that that looks like a steering unit. Mkay?
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: James on January 22, 2008, 03:45:01 PM
Look, its not conspiracy. I don't believe in conspiracy. It's just each company regarding its own interests. And btw, it looks contrived because...it is. I'm just pulling theories out of my rear end. I don't know anything, just throwing possibilities out the window.

The Conspiracy is just each company regarding its own interests. That's all the Conspiracy does.

About the main point...if you're not postulating Mach 3 planes, and you're not postulating lying about times...what are you postulating? It seems like (from my POV), you're doing a little dance between the two, not willing to put down either of them as your theory.

I wasn't postulating anything, just saying I don't trust your sources. I'm going to go out on a limb here and post a gut postulation, so forgive me if this ends up being completely wrong - I have a feeling the trickery might be derived from time-zones. You believe that the polar projection distorts the "true" distances between continents in the Southern Hemiplane. Necessarily, accepted time zones distort too. It's a grand trickery, but when you think about it, it seems to make sense. DISCLAIMER: GUT REACTION. NOT CLAIMING THIS AS FACT.

Quote
Actually, I didn't really have much to say. I honestly am shocked at you writing this. I kinda hoped you would let it drop, because...TBH...I find it the stupidest thing you have said on this forum. Devil worshipping? Anagrams? OK, please.

The evidence is there. I've only scraped the surface, a little more research and I'm sure I can dig up more than what I've presented in the thread.

Quote
So, said devil worshippers decided to reveal their purpose in their name? If I were going to start a club like that, I wouldn't make my name a stupid anagram. Trust me, you can make hilarious anagrams on presidential candidates names and so on.

Ever heard of a double-bluff? "Oh, they can't be satanic cult, no satanic cult would reveal its nature in an anagram of its name". That's precisely what they want us to think.

Quote
You didn't give me a location of that picture, and god knows that a single pose of that picture can be taken so far out of context. Heck, that picture could have been of him joking about a satanic fork, for all I know. You're getting paranoid.

He doesn't look like he's joking around to me. His mirth is sinister and menacing, not jovial and light-hearted. Obviously this particular point is completely a matter of opinion, so we probably won't get anywhere on it.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: James on January 22, 2008, 03:47:40 PM
EDIT: I found this out about the picture:

Wolfgang Mayrhuber, newly appointed CEO of German airline Lufthansa AG, raises a steering unit of an aircraft after taking the position from Juergen Weber during Lufthansa's annual shareholders meeting in Cologne, on Wednesday. Outgoing CEO Weber said on Wednesday Europe's third largest passenger airline had identified ways to generate an additional one billion euros ($ 1.18 billion) in cash flow by the end of 2004. 1— Reuters

I can confirm that that looks like a steering unit. Mkay?

The real question, then, is why are the steering units of their aeroplanes designed to mirror satanic symbols?

Actually, we could take the coincidence line, but then hey, a pitchfork is just a pitchfork, right? In the same way that a steering unit is just a steering unit? It's not what it is that counts, it's what it represents.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 22, 2008, 03:50:05 PM
Look, its not conspiracy. I don't believe in conspiracy. It's just each company regarding its own interests. And btw, it looks contrived because...it is. I'm just pulling theories out of my rear end. I don't know anything, just throwing possibilities out the window.

The Conspiracy is just each company regarding its own interests. That's all the Conspiracy does.

About the main point...if you're not postulating Mach 3 planes, and you're not postulating lying about times...what are you postulating? It seems like (from my POV), you're doing a little dance between the two, not willing to put down either of them as your theory.

I wasn't postulating anything, just saying I don't trust your sources. I'm going to go out on a limb here and post a gut postulation, so forgive me if this ends up being completely wrong - I have a feeling the trickery might be derived from time-zones. You believe that the polar projection distorts the "true" distances between continents in the Southern Hemiplane. Necessarily, accepted time zones distort too. It's a grand trickery, but when you think about it, it seems to make sense. DISCLAIMER: GUT REACTION. NOT CLAIMING THIS AS FACT.

Quote
Actually, I didn't really have much to say. I honestly am shocked at you writing this. I kinda hoped you would let it drop, because...TBH...I find it the stupidest thing you have said on this forum. Devil worshipping? Anagrams? OK, please.

The evidence is there. I've only scraped the surface, a little more research and I'm sure I can dig up more than what I've presented in the thread.

Quote
So, said devil worshippers decided to reveal their purpose in their name? If I were going to start a club like that, I wouldn't make my name a stupid anagram. Trust me, you can make hilarious anagrams on presidential candidates names and so on.

Ever heard of a double-bluff? "Oh, they can't be satanic cult, no satanic cult would reveal its nature in an anagram of its name". That's precisely what they want us to think.

Quote
You didn't give me a location of that picture, and god knows that a single pose of that picture can be taken so far out of context. Heck, that picture could have been of him joking about a satanic fork, for all I know. You're getting paranoid.

He doesn't look like he's joking around to me. His mirth is sinister and menacing, not jovial and light-hearted. Obviously this particular point is completely a matter of opinion, so we probably won't get anywhere on it.

1. OK

2 Trickery on a round trip flight would be hard. Not to mention that time zones would still be necessary on a FE, due to sunlight. I know you said you were justing throwing things, but wanted to make sure that was clear.

3+4. Double blinds work on single people. Why fool only half the populace, when you can not put an anagram, and make nobody think you are? I still wish you'd drop this, because nobody in the world will take you seriously unless they're wearing white if you keep on with that. And I also pointed out the real origin of that picture.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 22, 2008, 03:51:58 PM
EDIT: I found this out about the picture:

Wolfgang Mayrhuber, newly appointed CEO of German airline Lufthansa AG, raises a steering unit of an aircraft after taking the position from Juergen Weber during Lufthansa's annual shareholders meeting in Cologne, on Wednesday. Outgoing CEO Weber said on Wednesday Europe's third largest passenger airline had identified ways to generate an additional one billion euros ($ 1.18 billion) in cash flow by the end of 2004. 1— Reuters

I can confirm that that looks like a steering unit. Mkay?

The real question, then, is why are the steering units of their aeroplanes designed to mirror satanic symbols?

Actually, we could take the coincidence line, but then hey, a pitchfork is just a pitchfork, right? In the same way that a steering unit is just a steering unit? It's not what it is that counts, it's what it represents.

OK, now you're just digging your own metaphorical grave here. OK, not only their airplanes, but every plane, down to the lowly Cessna, has steering shaped like that. It's not coincidence, its the fact that that design is easy to work with, relatively light, and allows several means of communication to the craft.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: eric bloedow on January 22, 2008, 03:52:53 PM
that reminds me of an online comic, "under the lime tree":
the hero stuns a peace protester by telling her the hippie "peace" symbol looks like the unit insignia of Hitler's third panzer division!

oh, and before Hitler took it, a swastica used to be a symbol of good luck!
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: TheEngineer on January 22, 2008, 05:46:44 PM
that reminds me of an online comic, "under the lime tree":
the hero stuns a peace protester by telling her the hippie "peace" symbol looks like the unit insignia of Hitler's third panzer division!

oh, and before Hitler took it, a swastica used to be a symbol of good luck!
Do I have to tell you again about this?
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: eric bloedow on January 22, 2008, 06:23:02 PM
about what? that you, personally, don't like it when i say "this reminds me"? well, that's YOUR tough luck!
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Germanicus on January 22, 2008, 06:36:34 PM
Quote
By the way, I'm interested as to your reaction to my accusation that most international airlines are involved in a satanic cult. You seem to have rather skirted the issue and haven't yet openly denied it! Are you really comfortable just trusting the say-so of devil-worshipping greedmongers?

Wow. Do you even realize how much respect you lost for that? Airlines involved in satanic plots? These are the kinds of insane claims that prove just how weak your theory is, that you have to support it with laughable accusations.
Quote
Ever heard of a double-bluff? "Oh, they can't be satanic cult, no satanic cult would reveal its nature in an anagram of its name". That's precisely what they want us to think.

AHAHA! You sound like some guy whose seen bigfoot. Honestly, don't pull unprovable claims from the back of your head. It only strengthens the RE side.

Quote
The real question, then, is why are the steering units of their aeroplanes designed to mirror satanic symbols?

Actually, we could take the coincidence line, but then hey, a pitchfork is just a pitchfork, right? In the same way that a steering unit is just a steering unit? It's not what it is that counts, it's what it represents.

Making the pitchfork a symbol of Satan was just a Christian smear campaign against Neptune and his trident. Same goes for the horns, mimicking the image of Pan.


Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 22, 2008, 06:45:33 PM
Erm...Germanicus? I agree with alot of your statements, but couldn't you edit them into your first post rather than triple posting?  ;)

Anyway, I'm pretty much satisfied with this thread, as it showed me the response of each FE'er except bullhorn, who hasn't really been around, and Raa, whom I need only to imagine to correctly guess what he would say. I was not sure what Dogplatter, Tom(well, OK, maybe I did, but its entertaining), and Username would say.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: TheEngineer on January 22, 2008, 07:10:37 PM
about what? that you, personally, don't like it when i say "this reminds me"? well, that's YOUR tough luck!
And it's MY mouse click that is going to ban you! 
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 22, 2008, 07:14:34 PM
^^^ I knew that was coming :D

Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Colonel Gaydafi on January 23, 2008, 09:21:14 PM
Don't ban him, we need him for entertainment
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Conspiracy Mastermind on January 31, 2008, 11:59:58 AM
I've never said that the purpose of the Conspiracy was to cover up the shape of the earth. Why would anyone want to cover up the shape of the earth? That's stupid.
Hang on... *hears FET being ripped into shreds*
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 31, 2008, 12:01:22 PM
Aye, what on Earth...Tom musta been undergoing a code update...
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Conspiracy Mastermind on January 31, 2008, 12:12:42 PM
Sound's like he's got a virus or something... the conspiracy got him! He should have been running linux instead.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 31, 2008, 12:38:36 PM
Yep. He hasn't even got the power to respond to this thread. One would think it would trigger an emergency response from Tom...
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Conspiracy Mastermind on January 31, 2008, 01:14:38 PM
Indeed. But he said the conspiracy doesn't want to conceal the shape of the Earth.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: xemo on January 31, 2008, 09:38:39 PM
Oh no, I'm not saying the flights don't arrive in time. The flight proprieters blatantly fly faster to make up the difference, earn their filthy Conspiracy cash and appease their dark lord.

Faster? At what speeds? You have a mechanical/materials engineering degree. The ability of a commercial airliner (built to specifications) to obtain speeds in excess of 800+mph (except Concord wich is not in operation) without a catastrophic failure do not exist. Talk to an airplane mechanic/engineer lately?

And the ships? Must be some strong currents in the oceans to get them to port on time.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Colonel Gaydafi on January 31, 2008, 11:17:36 PM
You're all a bunch of meanies. Leave Tom alone!
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 31, 2008, 11:22:03 PM
This coming from the person who's sig... ;D

At any rate, speed doesn't help you there. I'm pretty sure breaking Mach 1.0 on a 747 would not be good for said 747's health...
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Colonel Gaydafi on January 31, 2008, 11:23:48 PM
But speed always helps

I mean, ahem, quit being mean or I'll kick your arse!
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on January 31, 2008, 11:28:04 PM
I'm pretty sure breaking Mach 1.0 on a 747 would not be good for said 747's health...
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Colonel Gaydafi on January 31, 2008, 11:29:02 PM
Oh so thats what you meant by speed

Well I shall unspeedily go to class now, buh bye
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Midnight on February 01, 2008, 02:50:47 AM
Quote
Oh, OK, so every flight in the South of the equator takes twice as long, without anyone noticing? Nice Tom, nice. The map.

They notice. Why wouldn't they?

I've personally been on international flights which have been delayed by hours. Everyone on my flight certainly noticed that.

Once again, you have shown no data to demonstrate otherwise, so why should we believe you?

A sockpuppet is an online identity used for purposes of deception within an Internet community. In its earliest usage, a sockpuppet was a false identity through which a member of an Internet community speaks while pretending not to, like a puppeteer manipulating a hand puppet.[1]

In current usage, the perception of the term has been extended beyond second identities of people who already post in a forum to include other uses of misleading online identities. For example, a NY Times article claims that "sock-puppeting" is defined as "the act of creating a fake online identity to praise, defend or create the illusion of support for one’s self, allies or company."[2]

The key difference between a sockpuppet and a regular pseudonym (sometimes termed an "alt") is the active exploitation of the pretense that the puppet is a third party who is not affiliated with the puppeteer. Using multiple identities for privacy purposes (for example, one identity divulges information which is easily identifiable and the other identity acts as a whistleblower) is not considered sockpuppetry unless one identity expresses assent to another identity's posting.

The first known usage of the term was on July 9, 1993 [1] by Merciful Lee Dickens [2] in a posting to bit.listserv.fnord-l, but was not in common usage in USENET groups until 1996.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sockpuppet_%28Internet%29
------------

Tom-Droid, you are clearly avoiding the argument you are choosing to engage in, by simply skirting the bounds of human decency. A layover WOULD be noticed by the passengers, but that has absolutely no bearing on what you are being accused of pulling here.

You fail. Again.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: James on February 01, 2008, 02:48:55 PM
Faster? At what speeds? You have a mechanical/materials engineering degree. The ability of a commercial airliner (built to specifications) to obtain speeds in excess of 800+mph (except Concord wich is not in operation) without a catastrophic failure do not exist. Talk to an airplane mechanic/engineer lately?

Actually, I don't have an engineering degree.

However, in lieu of TheEngineer's presence in this thread (who I'm sure you confused me with), I'd like to address a key concern I have with your response. From what source do you derive your assertions about the capabilities of commercial airliners besides the proprieters of those same airliners?

And the ships? Must be some strong currents in the oceans to get them to port on time.

Well, stick some falsifiable evidence regarding this point into the thread and maybe you'll be on to something.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Ltar on February 13, 2008, 11:41:03 PM
Quote
And the ships? Must be some strong currents in the oceans to get them to port on time.

Well, stick some falsifiable evidence regarding this point into the thread and maybe you'll be on to something.

Better idea. Stick some water on a spinning plate and watch.

Yep, it gets moving pretty fast.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: shadowstrife on February 14, 2008, 05:11:34 AM
Quote
And the ships? Must be some strong currents in the oceans to get them to port on time.

Well, stick some falsifiable evidence regarding this point into the thread and maybe you'll be on to something.

Better idea. Stick some water on a spinning plate and watch.

Yep, it gets moving pretty fast.

That does not explain difference of magnitude at different latitudes (for both atmospheric and ocean currents).
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on February 14, 2008, 11:15:40 AM
I found this site, but don't have the time to analyze it all. Can someone help out?

http://www.sailwx.info/shiptrack/shiplocations.phtml
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: jmosk on February 14, 2008, 04:50:04 PM
I just want to bring up the fact that NO answer was ever given to fshy94's arguments about the tropics. If the world was flat, the tropic of cancer would be within the tropic of capricorn. The distance around one would have to be different from the other. It is not. How do you explain this, Tom?
   (fshy94 is my hero)
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on February 14, 2008, 05:31:55 PM
Thanks ;D

To make my point, there's a ton of data in there(in fact, its one of my new favorite sites...), and one example is the Oceanographic research ships James Clark Ross, and Nathan B Palmer. They are recorded as having moved 100 RE miles in around 36 hours, and yet in FE, they must have moved around 1000 miles. Or look at CSCL LONGKOU, a container ship, that in RE traveled 350 miles in one day, and yet in FE miles must have traveled approximately 1500 miles per day, approximating a speed of over 60 MPH, an astounding feat for a cargo ship...there's probably tons more, these are just a few that I found within a few minutes research delving in there. There's a load more.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on February 14, 2008, 06:37:07 PM
Twas really hoping for a response.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: dyno on February 14, 2008, 09:00:41 PM
you got plenty, just not rational ones
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Ltar on February 14, 2008, 10:42:38 PM
Am I the only one who sees that the tropics of capricorn and cancer do not actually exist? in exactly the same way that the Prime meridian does not exist. The distances between the tropics is moot because on the FE model, they're meaningless.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: jdoe on February 14, 2008, 10:47:39 PM
Am I the only one who sees that the tropics of capricorn and cancer do not actually exist? in exactly the same way that the Prime meridian does not exist. The distances between the tropics is moot because on the FE model, they're meaningless.

The tropics of cancer and capricorn mark the minimum and maximum radii of the sun's orbit, respectively, in the FE model.  Doesn't that make them meaningful?
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Ltar on February 14, 2008, 11:12:24 PM
Am I the only one who sees that the tropics of capricorn and cancer do not actually exist? in exactly the same way that the Prime meridian does not exist. The distances between the tropics is moot because on the FE model, they're meaningless.

The tropics of cancer and capricorn mark the minimum and maximum radii of the sun's orbit, respectively, in the FE model.  Doesn't that make them meaningful?

right, but that doesn't imply that they're equidistant from each other. If they are defined by the sun's path over the earth, then the lower tropic would be farther around. It only appears that they are similar due to the earth's magnetic field distorting space/time.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on February 14, 2008, 11:20:34 PM
However, they are universally agreed to be concentric, right? And the data suggests that the tropics have about the same circumference size. Now, how can concentric circles have the same circumference?
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: jdoe on February 14, 2008, 11:21:21 PM
Quote
right, but that doesn't imply that they're equidistant from each other. If they are defined by the sun's path over the earth, then the lower tropic would be farther around.

Well, the equator is defined to be exactly in between the two.

Quote
It only appears that they are similar due to the earth's magnetic field distorting space/time.

Whoa, whoa, whoa...  Care to explain how that happens?
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on February 14, 2008, 11:22:30 PM
Oh whoops, I missed that. Yeow. So, how do electromagnetic fields warp spacetime now?
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Ltar on February 15, 2008, 12:45:47 AM
Of course they do. They distort gravity, causing iron filings to jump into formation. Therefore, they distort space and time. Electromagnetism is a more powerful force than gravity, affects gravity, and thereby distorts time and space through gravity. This creates the illusion of traveling slower over a shorter distance than you really are. It helps to make the earth seem round, and it makes it increasingly difficult to determine one's true position and speed as you travel progressively rimward.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: jdoe on February 15, 2008, 02:31:37 AM
Just wait for TheEngineer.  He'll set you straight.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on February 15, 2008, 10:25:54 AM
Erm...Electroweak is mediated by virtual photons, yes? So, while these photons may have an extremely brief time where they have relativistic mass, which can bend space-time on the order of 10^-30ish, I'm guessing, which is for an extremely short bit of time. Now, that's puny. When space-time bends a little bit, that's also gravity, which is not distorting gravity, its creating gravity, which would only tend to have a slight attraction to any mass, which does not explain anything at all.

Are you denying that electroweak is caused by virtual photons? I'm not too sure, because that's a pretty hard argument to make, and furthermore, even if it behaved as you said it would, it wouldn't change a thing. So, does anyone have a rational explanation to this, and now that I have ships doing it as well, unless Dogplatter claims all ships are now a Satanic cult...
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on February 15, 2008, 11:45:11 AM
Thanks ;D

To make my point, there's a ton of data in there(in fact, its one of my new favorite sites...), and one example is the Oceanographic research ships James Clark Ross, and Nathan B Palmer. They are recorded as having moved 100 RE miles in around 36 hours, and yet in FE, they must have moved around 1000 miles. Or look at CSCL LONGKOU, a container ship, that in RE traveled 350 miles in one day, and yet in FE miles must have traveled approximately 1500 miles per day, approximating a speed of over 60 MPH, an astounding feat for a cargo ship...there's probably tons more, these are just a few that I found within a few minutes research delving in there. There's a load more.

Bumped for answers.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Ltar on February 15, 2008, 01:07:50 PM
Just wait for TheEngineer.  He'll set you straight.
your lack of faith is disturbing.

Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on February 15, 2008, 01:17:29 PM
You didn't quite answer the point I made above...
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Ltar on February 15, 2008, 01:36:25 PM
Sorry, I didn't notice it.

Anyways, I'm not sure what you're talking about when you refer to electroweak--- I've never been briefed in that theory. Virtual Protons? I would be genuinely curious to see some literature regarding this theory, I think it's just slipped under my radar.

Of course, Weak Electromagnetic Force is what we observe as magnets and electricity, where strong electromagnetic force is the stuff of protons and atomic nuclei. I just want to be sure I have my definitions straight.

And of course, the distortion of space-time by the earth's electromagnetic field is facilitated by the earth's extremely powerful electromagnetic field. It's not unknown that birds and whales follow migration routes based on the magnetic field, and that local disturbances in it from volcanic activity or pollution can muck things up. We also are receptive to these fields, and they distort our senses.

I mean to say, the earth's electromagnetic field is immensely powerful, we've simply overestimated the magnetism of metals.

Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on February 15, 2008, 02:22:28 PM
No problem, my post was a little buried.

Well, electroweak is one of the fundamental forces of nature. It was originally thought that electromagnetism and weak forces were distinct, but it was later learned that they were just the same force, hence electroweak.

At any rate, its a long theory, but the theory goes that since Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle allows for very brief violations of conservation of mass, energy is transferred through "virtual" particles, where the particle violates COM, transfers energy, and then disappears pretty much. Odd theory, but backed by quite a bit of evidence.

Electromagnetism is magnets and electricity, yes, but the exact same thing happens in nuclear scenarios...not sure what the weak EM force and strong EM forces are....

But at any rate, are you postulating that these virtual photons are curving spacetime for some odd reason on macroscales? No matter what strength you postulate the Earth's magnetic field to be, you'd have to have an INSAAAANE field strength to do what you're talking about. The postulated energy of a photon is measured in MeV's, which are about 1.60217646 × 10^-13 J, plus we have to tack on the energy-mass conversion thingamabob, which is around 10^-16, plus we have to use the gravitational constant G, for another 10^-11...That puts us in the ballpark of around 10^-40...Now, the only way we see an observable effect of space-time is probably if you have an energy field in the ballpark of 10^30th power joules, or basically, more energy than we have probably ever seen, which begs the question, where does this energy come from? And furthermore, why don't we observe the other effects of this curved spacetime, namely, extra gravity?
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: char70ger on February 15, 2008, 02:50:15 PM
Back to the issue of flights being delayed and all that. Every transcontinental flight that originates from any commercial  airport has to present a flight path from the originating airport to the destination airport. If there are delays of more than 1 hr. it is a big deal in the aviation industry. They don't just say "oh boy!" "you are 18 hours late. No big deal it happens all the time." The routs are known and the times it take to travel those routs are recored. So even if the pilots are glorified taxi drive the air traffic controllers are not. If it takes longer than expected then they actually search for the delayed flight to see what happened to it. All flights are monitored for on time arrival and there are serious investigations when there are major delays. This also applies in the US and Canada for private flights from municipal airports. I have been up many times with a good friend of mine and even only flying 15 miles to the next airport requires a flight plan be submitted to the originating airport so they can pass it on to the destination airport to expect the arrival at x:00.

So it is not just the pilot who is involved there are dozens of people involved even if it is Uncle Charlie out for a Sunday joy ride in his Cessna! It is all recorded and mapped ahead of time and he is expected at the destination at a specific time. Do you all understand?
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Ltar on February 15, 2008, 03:27:36 PM
No problem, my post was a little buried.

Well, electroweak is one of the fundamental forces of nature. It was originally thought that electromagnetism and weak forces were distinct, but it was later learned that they were just the same force, hence electroweak.

At any rate, its a long theory, but the theory goes that since Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle allows for very brief violations of conservation of mass, energy is transferred through "virtual" particles, where the particle violates COM, transfers energy, and then disappears pretty much. Odd theory, but backed by quite a bit of evidence.

Electromagnetism is magnets and electricity, yes, but the exact same thing happens in nuclear scenarios...not sure what the weak EM force and strong EM forces are....

I think we're talking about the same things, I saw a documentary series on it once, it was about trying to unite electromagnetism and gravitation to form a Grand Unified Theory, but it was a challenge because gravity is so weird.

Anyways, Weak EM = Magnetism you play with in school
Strong EM = holds nuclei together
Virtual protons = ....   This is the term that threw me. Is this an alternative to quantum orbitals? When the an electron becomes excited enough, it instantaneously leaps to a higher orbital, when it falls back down, it emits an photon. Highschool level chemistry/physics.

 Is this the purpose of virtual protons? to carry the electron up and down? I have no trouble with cut-and-dry quantum leaps, but virtual particles seem like imaginary carrier mechanisms for a phenomena that already has an explanation.

Oh, and gravity = weird as hell. Works through a vacuum, no detectable carrier, inverse square law, seems to violate conservation of energy, we don't understand it. String theory tries to explain it, but the predictions are all untestable.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on February 15, 2008, 03:33:27 PM
Indeed we are. The thing is, when I was taught, they never made a distinction between strong and weak electromagnetism, just terminology I guess...

At any rate, the virtual photon(not protons ;D) is what in some cases, transfers the energy to make the electron excited, yada yada. It stops electromagnetism from behaving instantaneously, etc...

In fact, all fundamental forces are mediated by virtual particles. Electroweak -- Photon; Strong -- Gluon, IIRC, and Gravitation is theorized to be Graviton, which has proven difficult to detect for some reason or other...

At any rate, my point was that your idea was impossible, so another theory must be made for why cargo ships, airplanes, and so on are travelling like they would on an RE.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Ltar on February 15, 2008, 03:40:59 PM
Indeed we are. The thing is, when I was taught, they never made a distinction between strong and weak electromagnetism, just terminology I guess...

At any rate, the virtual photon(not protons ;D) is what in some cases, transfers the energy to make the electron excited, yada yada. It stops electromagnetism from behaving instantaneously, etc...

In fact, all fundamental forces are mediated by virtual particles. Electroweak -- Photon; Strong -- Gluon, IIRC, and Gravitation is theorized to be Graviton, which has proven difficult to detect for some reason or other...

At any rate, my point was that your idea was impossible, so another theory must be made for why cargo ships, airplanes, and so on are travelling like they would on an RE.

I think i understand now, when you classify a virtual photon in the same class as gluons, photons, and gravitons. If you're looking for a better explanation of southern 'hemisphere' travel, you may be able to find a useful implication from the theories posited in this thread:

http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=19898.0;topicseen
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on February 15, 2008, 05:25:00 PM
Thanks ;D

To make my point, there's a ton of data in there(in fact, its one of my new favorite sites...), and one example is the Oceanographic research ships James Clark Ross, and Nathan B Palmer. They are recorded as having moved 100 RE miles in around 36 hours, and yet in FE, they must have moved around 1000 miles. Or look at CSCL LONGKOU, a container ship, that in RE traveled 350 miles in one day, and yet in FE miles must have traveled approximately 1500 miles per day, approximating a speed of over 60 MPH, an astounding feat for a cargo ship...there's probably tons more, these are just a few that I found within a few minutes research delving in there. There's a load more.

Bumped for answers.

Since we moved a bit off topic...
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Benocrates on February 16, 2008, 12:11:50 AM
I've actually taken the time to read this whole thread and wonder why nobody has hoped on something interesting that Tom said before his puppeteer vanished. He constantly reinforces the point that REers need to provide evidence for their claims. I have seen almost no evidence if any coming from Tom or any FEer yet they still demand RE evidence.

    The pilot who posted earlier on made the point that RE is the currently accepted model. The onus is on FEers to provide actual evidence. Just saying "read book ____" is the intellectual equivalent of yelling "look over there" then run away. If anyone claims anything about a FE they must show a map. I can provide many RE maps, they are available anywhere. So I can go beyond my duty of evidence (none) but none is on the other side. Evidence of super fast jet streams and the other nonsense. I had decided to stay out of the whole battle between reason and unreason but here I need to have my say.

The onus is on the FEers, you have to actually provide the evidence. Why not just quote from the book? If you have time to waste typing out long winded responses like I'm doing now, you have the time to quote from the books. I have online libraries, paid for, with no Flat Earth books available. I know there are amazon links but there is no way I'm going to buy this nonsense without at least some previews in the form of excerpts of dialogue or maps.

     I know most of the FEers really don't believe this shit but the problem is some actually do! I have no doubt Tom Bishop is somebody on this board considered a REer, most likely well known, that only does this to keep these ridiculous debates going. I guess thats all well and good but your honestly corrupting minds.

    BTW, does anyone have a links to FE documentaries online?
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Althalus on February 16, 2008, 12:33:03 AM
That's nice of you to share your thoughts and feelings with us, bubbles. But you forgot that you originally came here and sought us out. We did not seek you out. Therefore the onus is on you to prove us wrong.

If you cannot do that, please leave.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: divito the truthist on February 16, 2008, 06:02:55 AM
The onus is on the FEers, you have to actually provide the evidence.

BoP is on whoever makes the claim. As it turns out, more REers make claims on here than FEers.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: ﮎingulaЯiτy on February 16, 2008, 06:50:12 AM
The onus is on the FEers, you have to actually provide the evidence.

BoP is on whoever makes the claim. As it turns out, more REers make claims on here than FEers.
But the FE'ers make the more important claim that deviates from common knowledge. Saying "color blind people actually see more color", on a new site dedicated to this concept is a deviating and important claim; if 500 people come to claim they are wrong, the burden of proof isn't shifted on them because of their size. The burden of proof shouldn't be placed on the general understanding or common knowledge, but on the site and question that is reaching to a new definition of reality to assert that common knowledge is wrong. Simply put, FE pulls away from RE first, meaning it must have reasons to do so.
Presenting those reasons wouldn't be hard if they existed and FE was valid.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on February 16, 2008, 07:05:12 PM
At any rate, does anyone have an explanation for the ships I pointed out as well? The only one that accounts for both is now Ltar's semi-serious contribution of wormholes...
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Ltar on February 16, 2008, 07:51:20 PM
The onus is on the FEers, you have to actually provide the evidence.

BoP is on whoever makes the claim. As it turns out, more REers make claims on here than FEers.
But the FE'ers make the more important claim that deviates from common knowledge. Saying "color blind people actually see more color", on a new site dedicated to this concept is a deviating and important claim; if 500 people come to claim they are wrong, the burden of proof isn't shifted on them because of their size. The burden of proof shouldn't be placed on the general understanding or common knowledge, but on the site and question that is reaching to a new definition of reality to assert that common knowledge is wrong. Simply put, FE pulls away from RE first, meaning it must have reasons to do so.
Presenting those reasons wouldn't be hard if they existed and FE was valid.

Except Flat Earth theory was generally accepted as fact long before RE theory was even a fringe group. The burden of proof remains on RE.

At any rate, does anyone have an explanation for the ships I pointed out as well? The only one that accounts for both is now Ltar's semi-serious contribution of wormholes...

It wouldn't be the first time a major breakthrough was discovered by accident.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on February 16, 2008, 08:02:52 PM
Except the BoP then was satisfied. Your FET has several distinctions from the old one, including shape(they thought it was rectangular), size, and so on.

And, this is besides the point. Does anyone have a logical answer? Dogplatter and Tom, I'm wanting your explanation on the ships.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Benocrates on February 17, 2008, 10:18:34 PM
Except the BoP then was satisfied. Your FET has several distinctions from the old one, including shape(they thought it was rectangular), size, and so on.

Exactly, these new theories on Universal Accelerators and the other nonsense are new and have yet to be substantiated, at least on this site. Its fine if you decide to have your beliefs but when you engage in a debate there must at least be some proof on both sides. The way I see it in this particular debate is that the RE camp has submitted aviation evidence for a RE model. It is as strong as possible without having anyone actually taking these measurments. Considering the FE camp is not out there doing their own experiments this evidence will have to suffice. So, the FE camp dismissed the RE evidence, being explained by mysterious jet streams and other supernatural phenomenon with no evidence beyond their own conjecture.

Forgetting the jurisdiction issues of burden of proof we can agree on an evidence for evidence exchange. The RE camp has presented its evidence on North/South air travel as well as their conjecture on sea travel (anyone find evidence for this?). I think it is the FE sides turn to give their evidence for air travel and conjecture for sea travel.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on February 18, 2008, 01:29:29 PM
Yes I did find evidence on ships. I don't have enough time to analyze all of this though, there's an insane amount of data.

I found this site, but don't have the time to analyze it all. Can someone help out?

http://www.sailwx.info/shiptrack/shiplocations.phtml

Thanks ;D

To make my point, there's a ton of data in there(in fact, its one of my new favorite sites...), and one example is the Oceanographic research ships James Clark Ross, and Nathan B Palmer. They are recorded as having moved 100 RE miles in around 36 hours, and yet in FE, they must have moved around 1000 miles. Or look at CSCL LONGKOU, a container ship, that in RE traveled 350 miles in one day, and yet in FE miles must have traveled approximately 1500 miles per day, approximating a speed of over 60 MPH, an astounding feat for a cargo ship...there's probably tons more, these are just a few that I found within a few minutes research delving in there. There's a load more.

Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on February 19, 2008, 05:42:59 PM
Bump?
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Conspiracy Mastermind on February 20, 2008, 11:14:54 AM
Why bump?
Bumpety bump.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on February 22, 2008, 02:34:42 PM
Yes I did find evidence on ships. I don't have enough time to analyze all of this though, there's an insane amount of data.

I found this site, but don't have the time to analyze it all. Can someone help out?

http://www.sailwx.info/shiptrack/shiplocations.phtml

Thanks ;D

To make my point, there's a ton of data in there(in fact, its one of my new favorite sites...), and one example is the Oceanographic research ships James Clark Ross, and Nathan B Palmer. They are recorded as having moved 100 RE miles in around 36 hours, and yet in FE, they must have moved around 1000 miles. Or look at CSCL LONGKOU, a container ship, that in RE traveled 350 miles in one day, and yet in FE miles must have traveled approximately 1500 miles per day, approximating a speed of over 60 MPH, an astounding feat for a cargo ship...there's probably tons more, these are just a few that I found within a few minutes research delving in there. There's a load more.



Me wants to hear Tom Bishops and Dogplatter's response to this.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Conspiracy Mastermind on February 23, 2008, 02:35:28 PM
It won't be anything worth reading.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: travis on February 23, 2008, 05:33:14 PM


Me wants to hear Tom Bishops and Dogplatter's response to this.

That's not proof of anything.  Were you on any of these ships yourself?
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Trekky0623 on February 23, 2008, 08:30:55 PM
Quote from: Tom Bishop
Why would anyone want to cover up the shape of the earth? That's stupid.

This may just be signature worthy.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on February 27, 2008, 12:25:42 PM
Aye. Bumped for Dogplatter/Username/Tom Bishop.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: sokarul on February 27, 2008, 12:58:32 PM
I'm sure doggplatter will claim it uses Ohms law or something. 
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: divito the truthist on February 27, 2008, 01:16:07 PM
You want to hear a response to your made-up numbers?
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on February 27, 2008, 01:39:00 PM
I erred on the side of FE. You cannot dispute my distances, because I was careful with them. I am careful to use things on the opposite sides of the world, so that if you claim the continents are closer on one side, they must be expanded on the other. Either way, you lose. Unless you are claiming, as for some reason people never answer, that the tropics may be concentric, and yet have equal distances...
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: divito the truthist on February 27, 2008, 11:41:58 PM
I'm just not sure why you add so much distance. Flight paths are curved in both models.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: sokarul on February 28, 2008, 08:11:54 AM
I'm just not sure why you add so much distance. Flight paths are curved in both models.
Why would they curve on a flat earth? 
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: char70ger on February 28, 2008, 08:52:55 AM
They curve almost the same way as on a RE. If I'm not mistaken, their definition is that when you travel in a "straight" line on FE you are actually going in a circle due to the magnetic pull of the north pole. So as you go around a RE you also go around a FE in almost the same fashion. Their equator is a circle similar to the RE equator.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: John Davis on February 28, 2008, 08:56:58 AM
Aye. Bumped for Dogplatter/Username/Tom Bishop.
I don't really have time to write a program or manually examine this data, unfortunately.  If it is indeed legitimate, of course.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: divito the truthist on February 28, 2008, 10:04:18 AM
Why would they curve on a flat earth? 

In order to get to their destination and follow their maps, they would fly a curved path.

In RE, their paths are also curved, just not in the same way.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on February 28, 2008, 10:07:38 AM
Yes, but in RE, the curve shortens the distance. In FE, it lengthens it. On a globe, its the fastest way, on a FE, a straight line is the way to go... And the curvature isn't the main thing with the distance. It's the fact that the tropics are concentric, which means distances go waaay up as we go to the Southern hemisphere.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: divito the truthist on February 28, 2008, 10:11:17 AM
In FE, it lengthens it.

Really? I don't believe you have any evidence to suggest the curve experienced is any larger or further than the curve experienced on RE.

It's the fact that the tropics are concentric, which means distances go waaay up as we go to the Southern hemisphere.

They'll go up, yes.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: char70ger on February 28, 2008, 10:25:42 AM
Quote from: fshy94 on Today at 10:07:38 AM
In FE, it lengthens it.

Quote from: Dvitio: Really? I don't believe you have any evidence to suggest the curve experienced is any larger or further than the curve experienced on RE.


I believe what he means is that traveling in a straight line in FE is shorter than using a curve. He didn't say that the FE curve is longer or shorter than the RE curve.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on February 28, 2008, 10:27:12 AM
Look, lets say the radius of our inner circle is 3112 miles, mkay? So what's its circumference? 6114pi, right? Now, the second circle, the other tropic, is around 9336 miles, so its now 18672pi or something, right? Now, divide, and you get 4x just at the tropics. Now lets say we go to our little thing over at very close to the North Pole, and all the way to the South of the Earth. It's going to get bad, isn't it? And yet, in RE, the two are equal. So, if a ship down all the way near Antarctica is going in RE speed of about 20-30 knots, in FE, it must be going at 80-120 knots, at the very least, yes? Probably far more. And Char70ger is right about what I mean.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: divito the truthist on February 28, 2008, 10:35:19 AM
Well it's obvious that in FE that a straight line would be shorter. I really don't see how that's a point against anything.

As far as I remember, the FE uses the same equatorial distance, being 7922 miles. Only after the equator will distances be much different.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on February 28, 2008, 10:41:24 AM
Not possible. In order to do that, you must claim that the distances on the U.S. are halved, or to rearrange the continents to make that happen, you have to completely disappear the North Pacific and the North Atlantic, or at least make them swimming pools. Seriously, half the distances there, and watch what happens...its messy.

That's not really a point against anything with the curves, but unless you claim that the planes don't curve, then its extra distance, seeing as my measurements assumed a perfectly straight flight path on FE, and it still didn't work.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on March 12, 2008, 11:01:41 AM
Sorry to be a necromancer, but meh. Bumped for Dogplatter, Tom Bishop, and possibly Username if his model is done by now.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on March 13, 2008, 12:58:09 PM
Bump.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Colonel Gaydafi on March 13, 2008, 02:36:21 PM
bump yourself
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: silverhammermba on March 19, 2008, 12:14:59 AM
If NASA has never been to space and simply fakes their data to win the space race/get funding/maintain the illusion of America's militaristic domination of space, then how would they know that the earth is flat?

NASA has never been to space therefore they cannot know that the Earth is flat.

Contrapositived!

Tom knows the Earth is flat, therefore Tom has been to space!

What was it like!?
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Gawd on April 19, 2008, 01:01:41 PM
Please stop feeding the troll.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on April 19, 2008, 01:56:18 PM
Nice necromancy, but I'd still like answers.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Anderkent on May 13, 2008, 09:21:59 AM
we all would... :(
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: lived_eht_asan on May 13, 2008, 11:07:00 AM
I read through this thread, and I think the questions have been adressed rather well.

Tom distinguishes between two types of conspiracies- a conspiracy because the earth is round, and a conspiracy which coincidentally perpetuates the myth of a round earth.  I think his argument is 100% airtight- why would anyone conspire about the geometry of an object?  NASA found a niche, in a belief that people would back, and it doesn't matter to them what the true geometry is.  That doesn't mean the conspiracy doesn't perpetuate RE myths, just that it wasn't specifically designed for that purpose.

Regarding flight time discrepancies, these arguments are not very solid.  To say that pilots or passengers would have noticed....    These are more sociological arguments- "if the earth were flat, then this group of people would act like this".  Not very solid, scientifically.  My "sociological" argument in response is that if there were a valid, clear, physical reason to believe the world is round, somebody would have posted it here long ago.

The jetstream information is very appropriate.  Combine the various jetstreams with the fact that most flight time eta's are wrong (so passengers are used to this), and with the fact that an indisputable FE map has not been created, and with the fact that the GPS system is controlled by space agencies...   and the argument disappears.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: lindelof on May 13, 2008, 11:19:46 AM

Regarding flight time discrepancies, these arguments are not very solid.  To say that pilots or passengers would have noticed....    These are more sociological arguments- "if the earth were flat, then this group of people would act like this".  Not very solid, scientifically.  My "sociological" argument in response is that if there were a valid, clear, physical reason to believe the world is round, somebody would have posted it here long ago.

The jetstream information is very appropriate.  Combine the various jetstreams with the fact that most flight time eta's are wrong (so passengers are used to this), and with the fact that an indisputable FE map has not been created, and with the fact that the GPS system is controlled by space agencies...   and the argument disappears.

Dude man, FE theory basically says that flights in the Southern Hemisphere should take like TWICE AS FREAKING LONG people would notice.  You might not notice if your flight was as hour or so longer, but 8 hours longer?  And it doesn't matter what your map is like, the same distortions will still exist, just at different places.

You can postulate some ridiculous system of jet streams.  Or say that everyone on a flight in the southern hemisphere has their memories altered by space aliens or some other huge ad hocery, but that's about it/

Sociological arguments?

People HAVE posted clear arguments that the Earth is round here.  Here's one:

(http://www.cosmos4kids.com/extras/dtop_earth/moonearth_580.jpg)

This thread is also one.  My Stars argument is another.  You can probably find quite a few more.

Also, why do you reject "sociological arguments" & than use one?
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: markjo on May 13, 2008, 11:29:00 AM
Talk about new government conspiracies to hide the true nature of the earth, check out what China wants to do internet based maps:

http://www.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.sina.com.cn%2Fc%2F2008-05-13%2F032513866565s.shtml&hl=en&ie=UTF8&sl=zh-CN&tl=en
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on May 13, 2008, 02:59:12 PM
Yes I did find evidence on ships. I don't have enough time to analyze all of this though, there's an insane amount of data.

I found this site, but don't have the time to analyze it all. Can someone help out?

http://www.sailwx.info/shiptrack/shiplocations.phtml

Thanks ;D

To make my point, there's a ton of data in there(in fact, its one of my new favorite sites...), and one example is the Oceanographic research ships James Clark Ross, and Nathan B Palmer. They are recorded as having moved 100 RE miles in around 36 hours, and yet in FE, they must have moved around 1000 miles. Or look at CSCL LONGKOU, a container ship, that in RE traveled 350 miles in one day, and yet in FE miles must have traveled approximately 1500 miles per day, approximating a speed of over 60 MPH, an astounding feat for a cargo ship...there's probably tons more, these are just a few that I found within a few minutes research delving in there. There's a load more.



Please allow me to bump this once again, and hope that Dogplatter, or Tom has anything to say on the matter. Username temporarily conceded the point, but still didn't provide me an explanation, saying he was still working on one, so if its ready, he can feel free to speak his mind as well.

Oh, and just to note, China's job on their internet and press irks the hell out of me.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Ski on May 13, 2008, 03:04:37 PM
I'm guessing they went around something, but not the entire icewall.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on May 13, 2008, 03:10:50 PM
That's not the issue. Please read a little...the issue is not a circumnavigation, the issue is speed. How, if the maps are distorted, and distances are between 3-5x RE predictions at that location (which is undisputed, take a look at the previous arguments there), then how come a cargo ship is travelling at 100+ knots? We know it starts from X and ends at Y at certain times, and that the distances necessitate that speed. Some ship, eh? I've already been over this with airplanes, and the arguments I got were 2000 MPH jetstreams which help the planes, and another conspiracy with the airlines (which just so happen to all be a Satanic conspiracy), who are doing...something...to fool us...nobody says quite what...
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: lived_eht_asan on May 13, 2008, 03:28:30 PM

Can you be a little more specific?  Where did the ship start and end, what was the start time (and time zone) and end time, and what is the evidence that the travel was as described?

Ships and planes don't take shortcuts over the supposed south pole anyway, they follow the east/west "rings" on the flat earth, so the discrepancy isn't as large as you suggest.  The rings are larger in FE topology than RE, which could result in longer travel time than expected in the southern hemisphere, but the evidence probably supports this (since the Earth is flat).
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Anderkent on May 13, 2008, 04:44:53 PM

Can you be a little more specific?  Where did the ship start and end, what was the start time (and time zone) and end time, and what is the evidence that the travel was as described?

Ships and planes don't take shortcuts over the supposed south pole anyway, they follow the east/west "rings" on the flat earth, so the discrepancy isn't as large as you suggest.  The rings are larger in FE topology than RE, which could result in longer travel time than expected in the southern hemisphere, but the evidence probably supports this (since the Earth is flat).

Can you read a little more carefully?
The distance difference isnt negligible, in FE theory the ships have to travel over FOUR TIMES longer way in some cases. The evidence is contrary, for basically every record at the page. I've tried a couple queries at http://www.sailwx.info/shiptrack/shiplocations.phtml and the ships i saw did not turn weeks late.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on May 13, 2008, 04:54:09 PM
Are some of you guys incapable of basic reading skills? You've got it reversed, the time taken is much shorter than FE predicts, so using the straight line actually helps you guys, lol. Thanks for making my point though.

FE predicts the flights should take 16 hours, RE predicts 8, and whaddaya know, the planes arrive in...8. Same story for the ships....
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: lived_eht_asan on May 13, 2008, 05:37:20 PM
Are some of you guys...

I am myself, and noone else.

But reading skills?  Wow, you're 180 degrees on that one:
You've got it reversed, the time taken is much shorter than FE predicts, so using the straight line actually helps you guys, lol. Thanks for making my point though.
That is exactly what I said ("The rings are larger in FE topology than RE").  Kinda hard to have a conversation with you.

FE predicts the flights should take 16 hours, RE predicts 8, and whaddaya know, the planes arrive in...8. Same story for the ships....
Which flight?  Which ship?  Who predicted it, and according to what map?

I looked at the tracks for both ships you mentioned, and they are entirely consistent with a flat earth, as they should be.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on May 13, 2008, 08:17:51 PM
Try the airplanes before that, the ship one is probably too hard for you. I made the airplane one simple enough for the average five year old. Yes, you said the rings are larger, but you said that plane's don't fly over the pole as if that helped your case, which it clearly doesn't, and you say observable evidence tallies with FE models, which is funny because you clearly haven't read the airplane case...I have flights from South America to South Africa on both sides.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: lived_eht_asan on May 13, 2008, 09:08:37 PM
Yes, you said the rings are larger, but you said that plane's don't fly over the pole as if that helped your case, which it clearly doesn't
Yeah, I guess I have to put everything in simple words... think about it for a minute.  FE predicts slightly longer flight times in the southern hemisphere.  If we pretend the Earth is round, and planes flew over the pole, some of the RE flight times would be dramatically shorter.  But they never do, so its going to be that much harder for you to build a case.  And as Tom mentioned, most flights are north/south, which is the same for FE and RE.

which is funny because you clearly haven't read the airplane case.

You mean this one?
JNB    Johannesburg    QF 63    Qantas Airways    10:30 AM    11:09 AM       T-1    Landed
36 min    744    
JNB    Johannesburg    SA 7701^    South African Airways    10:30 AM    11:09 AM       T-1    Landed
36 min    744    

So QF 63 flew from Sydney to Johannesburg in 14.5 hours (actually even that flight was delayed 5%)?  So what?  There isn't a definitive FE map, but even using the one mentioned in this thread (http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/img/fig54.jpg) that doesn't look impossible at all.  Especially when you remember that jet streams can cut travel team in half, a fact which I hope you will not dispute.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on May 13, 2008, 09:12:51 PM
Oh, so there's a new jetstream along that flight route that was recently discovered? And, yes I do dispute your idiotic claim that it can cut travel time in half trans-continentally.

Quote from: WIKI
Within North America, the time needed to fly east across the continent can be decreased by about 30 minutes if a airplane can fly with the jet stream, or increased by more than that amount if it must fly west against it.

Like I calculated, you'd need a jetstream of ridiculous speed. Are you really postulating not only the fastest jet stream in the world, but completely undetectable to meteorologists? Nice.

And, I knew, like Tom, you would point out he 5% late ridiculousness, which is actually quite funny, considering.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: lived_eht_asan on May 13, 2008, 09:28:05 PM
And, yes I do dispute your idiotic claim that it can cut travel time in half trans-continentally.

Did you read the article you just quoted?
The very first commercial use of a jet stream, Tokyo to Honolulu:

"It cut the trip time by over one-third"  -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_stream

Like I calculated, you'd need a jetstream of ridiculous speed.

How did you calculate that, considering there isn't an accurate FE map? (and also, ridiculous doesn't fit in most hand-held calculators)
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Anderkent on May 14, 2008, 09:32:37 AM
Jetstream cuts the flight time by 1/3.
The distance is 3 times longer in FE then in RE.
Therefore, the time, USING JETSTREAM, is twice as in RE WITHOUT USING JETSTREAM.
And we can assume that the jetstream usage is calculated in RE time, therefore the time in FE is... THREE TIMES what in RE.
Which clearly is not the case, as 14 hours long flight is only 30 minutes late (while it should be 28 hours late, i think someone would notice)
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: lived_eht_asan on May 14, 2008, 09:48:05 AM
Jetstream cuts the flight time by 1/3.
The distance is 3 times longer in FE then in RE.
Therefore, the time, USING JETSTREAM, is twice as in RE WITHOUT USING JETSTREAM.
And we can assume that the jetstream usage is calculated in RE time, therefore the time in FE is... THREE TIMES what in RE.
Which clearly is not the case, as 14 hours long flight is only 30 minutes late (while it should be 28 hours late, i think someone would notice)

Sorry, but I don't accept your premise that "someone would notice".

The only real proof presented here for RE theory is a 14.5 hour flight from Sydney to Johannesburg.  Even given the FE map shown (which has not been accepted), the travel time and distance are extraordinarily ordinary.  So... nothing has been proven.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: lindelof on May 14, 2008, 10:33:23 AM
Jetstream cuts the flight time by 1/3.
The distance is 3 times longer in FE then in RE.
Therefore, the time, USING JETSTREAM, is twice as in RE WITHOUT USING JETSTREAM.
And we can assume that the jetstream usage is calculated in RE time, therefore the time in FE is... THREE TIMES what in RE.
Which clearly is not the case, as 14 hours long flight is only 30 minutes late (while it should be 28 hours late, i think someone would notice)

Sorry, but I don't accept your premise that "someone would notice".

The only real proof presented here for RE theory is a 14.5 hour flight from Sydney to Johannesburg.  Even given the FE map shown (which has not been accepted), the travel time and distance are extraordinarily ordinary.  So... nothing has been proven.

Are you seriously saying that if people were on a flight that was supposed to last 14 hours & it lasted 28 hours than no one would notice?

As someone who has traveled distances like that I can safely say that everyone would notice.  Everyone on the plane would notice.  Air traffic controllers would notice.  The pilots would notice.  The people waiting to pick you up at the airport would notice.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: lived_eht_asan on May 14, 2008, 11:04:21 AM
Are you seriously saying that if people were on a flight that was supposed to last 14 hours & it lasted 28 hours than no one would notice?

As someone who has traveled distances like that I can safely say that everyone would notice.  Everyone on the plane would notice.  Air traffic controllers would notice.  The pilots would notice.  The people waiting to pick you up at the airport would notice.

No, I'm saying that in general you can't prove things using "people would notice".  You can form strong opinions, make great assumptions, and hone your thought in the right direction- but not prove things.

And in general, expectations conform to reality, rather than theoretical predictions based on the geometry of the Earth.  If a flight from Sydney to Johannesburg seems to take 14.5 hours most of the time, thats what they'll schedule, and that's what people will expect.  They're not going to make calculations in spherical coordinate space to prove the geometry they are covering.

The flight time and distance covered is the more concrete evidence, and the example provided fits with FE theory.  Which it should, because the EARTH IS FLAT.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: lindelof on May 14, 2008, 11:21:35 AM
Are you seriously saying that if people were on a flight that was supposed to last 14 hours & it lasted 28 hours than no one would notice?

As someone who has traveled distances like that I can safely say that everyone would notice.  Everyone on the plane would notice.  Air traffic controllers would notice.  The pilots would notice.  The people waiting to pick you up at the airport would notice.

No, I'm saying that in general you can't prove things using "people would notice".  You can form strong opinions, make great assumptions, and hone your thought in the right direction- but not prove things.

And in general, expectations conform to reality, rather than theoretical predictions based on the geometry of the Earth.  If a flight from Sydney to Johannesburg seems to take 14.5 hours most of the time, thats what they'll schedule, and that's what people will expect.  They're not going to make calculations in spherical coordinate space to prove the geometry they are covering.

The flight time and distance covered is the more concrete evidence, and the example provided fits with FE theory.  Which it should, because the EARTH IS FLAT.

dude man:

"people would notice" arguments are intensely valid.  It's how you prove that a huge rabbit-bat-naked-pink-cabbage-carrot-space alien-cliff-tree-swallow-banana-brillo paper-potato-panda did not just become president.

Let me be clear:

* If the Earth is flat there will be major differences in distance from place to place.

      For example; look at this map:


(http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/img/fig54.jpg)

Africa is wider than it is tall.  The distance from Arizona to Alaska is about the same as the distance from Arizona to New York. {as someone who has done both drives, I can tell you that that is definatly not true}

* If you change the map you can more the distortions around; but the will still be somewhere.              There's a theorem of Euler that basically implies this.

* The Earth is very, very, well travelled.

* If the huge distortions existed, people would notice.  Seriously.  Do you think they wouldn't?
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Ski on May 14, 2008, 11:45:55 AM
The distance from Arizona to Alaska is about the same as the distance from Arizona to New York. {as someone who has done both drives, I can tell you that that is definatly not true}

While not arguing that the continents are accurately  mapped on that map, the straight-line distance from say Juneau to Phoenix and NY,NY to Phoenix are VERY, VERY close to the same. Further demonstrating the point. You noticed a longer drive, but it wasn't. Someone else might notice a shorter trip that wasn't.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on May 14, 2008, 11:57:18 AM
Except, ski, I took care to note this, by noting flights in both directions, which is impossible on a FE without scrunching up the distance from either New York to London or San Francisco to Seoul. Something's gotta give.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: lindelof on May 14, 2008, 11:58:38 AM
The distance from Arizona to Alaska is about the same as the distance from Arizona to New York. {as someone who has done both drives, I can tell you that that is definatly not true}

While not arguing that the continents are accurately  mapped on that map, the straight-line distance from say Juneau to Phoenix and NY,NY to Phoenix are VERY, VERY close to the same. Further demonstrating the point. You noticed a longer drive, but it wasn't. Someone else might notice a shorter trip that wasn't.

Yeah.  But you don't drive the straight line distance.  Anyway, that specific case doesn't paticularly matter.  The point is that no matter how you map the continents onto a flat surface, you are going to get major differences in distance, shape & size.  In the sort of Fe maps that are usually used on this board, things in the Southern Hemisphere are either way to big or way too far apart.  In the map I posted it is waaaaaaaaay to far from Tierra Del Fuego to Australia.  If I'm not incorrect, before the Panama Canal was built, people sailed that route alot.  They would have noticed an extra few thousand miles.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: lived_eht_asan on May 14, 2008, 12:22:29 PM

dude man:

"people would notice" arguments are intensely valid.  It's how you prove that a huge rabbit-bat-naked-pink-cabbage-carrot-space alien-cliff-tree-swallow-banana-brillo paper-potato-panda did not just become president.


Dude man, that is not science.  I know it is a subtle point to grasp... but there is an enormous gulf between great reasons to believe something, and SCIENCE.

Scientists don't prove everything they believe- but when they debate a particular scientific premise, it must be in terms of evidence.


Regarding your specific argument, dude man, flight schedules and expectations derive from experience and not theory. The Earth is flat, and of course this will dictate the lengths involved.  But what evidence do you have of any flight times which contradict the shape of our great, flat, earth?
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Anderkent on May 14, 2008, 12:26:25 PM
The earth is commonly believed to be round, and flight times are calculated with this in mind.

The real flight times are usually identical or very close to the predicted ones, which means the assumption that the earth is round was correct.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 14, 2008, 12:47:25 PM
Quote
The real flight times are usually identical or very close to the predicted ones

Do you have proof for this claim?
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: lindelof on May 14, 2008, 01:03:18 PM
Quote
The real flight times are usually identical or very close to the predicted ones

Do you have proof for this claim?

If flight times were off by many hours people would notice.  People haven't noticed.  Flight times aren't off by many hours.  So flight times are fairly close to the predicted ones.


dude man:

"people would notice" arguments are intensely valid.  It's how you prove that a huge rabbit-bat-naked-pink-cabbage-carrot-space alien-cliff-tree-swallow-banana-brillo paper-potato-panda did not just become president.


Dude man, that is not science.  I know it is a subtle point to grasp... but there is an enormous gulf between great reasons to believe something, and SCIENCE.

Scientists don't prove everything they believe- but when they debate a particular scientific premise, it must be in terms of evidence.


Regarding your specific argument, dude man, flight schedules and expectations derive from experience and not theory. The Earth is flat, and of course this will dictate the lengths involved.  But what evidence do you have of any flight times which contradict the shape of our great, flat, earth?

Yeah, I don't really care if my arguments fit your idea of science, so long as they provide "great reasons to believe something."  If my arguments provide great reasons to believe that the Earth is round, than I'm happy.

Evidence of flight times?  Pretty much all flight times ever.  Especially in the Southern Hemisphere.  Flight schedules & expectations may not be derived from theory, but if they contradicted the theory......
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on May 14, 2008, 01:24:48 PM
Quote
The real flight times are usually identical or very close to the predicted ones

Do you have proof for this claim?

Haven't we been over this Tom? The website, if you recall?
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 14, 2008, 01:37:39 PM
Quote
If flight times were off by many hours people would notice.  People haven't noticed.  Flight times aren't off by many hours.  So flight times are fairly close to the predicted ones.

I've noticed. I have been on international flights which have experienced in-flight delays on the range of hours.

Quote
Haven't we been over this Tom? The website, if you recall?

Would that be the flight time calculator on the internet which gives flight time estimates based on the Round Earth model?
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on May 14, 2008, 02:03:41 PM
No, you have very memory. That is the one that tracks planes, and notes arrival and departure times as indicated by airports. Now, are you telling me that they're saying that the plane has arrived when the plane hasn't? Because if so, that would cause quite a few noticeable headaches, no? You go to pick up your friend from the airport, and he's still 8 hours away, eh?
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: lived_eht_asan on May 14, 2008, 02:24:16 PM

Schedulers and passengers base their expectations on experience, not a model of the earth.  Or were you thinking the scheduler's and passengers were all doodling idle notes on manifold spaces and grassmannians while the planes fly?

And yes, jet streams dramatically alter real world flight times.

And yes, international flights are routinely delayed.  I've never thought to have a talk with the pilot about geodesics when my flight was delayed hours.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: lindelof on May 14, 2008, 02:33:51 PM

Schedulers and passengers base their expectations on experience, not a model of the earth.  Or were you thinking the scheduler's and passengers were all doodling idle notes on manifold spaces and grassmannians while the planes fly?

And yes, jet streams dramatically alter real world flight times.

And yes, international flights are routinely delayed.  I've never thought to have a talk with the pilot about geodesics when my flight was delayed hours.


On a Flat Earth you would have to have a (the location varies depending on how you want to arrange the continents)  flight path were every flight was delayed for like EIGHT HOURS.  Every single flight.  There's no way that the pilots that flew that route would ever notice, now is there.  By golly, the earth must be flat after all.

Manifold spaces and grassmannians? Uh...you don't need those.  You don't need any non-elementary math.  All you need is rough estimates of distances on the Earth and a rough idea of how fast your plane is going.  Which is readily available.  And division.  Or you could just measure fuel consumption.  Also, they're generally just called "manifolds."

Let me ask you a simple question:

Do you think that if New Zealand was twice as far away from Australia as the RE model says it is, than no one at all would notice?
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 14, 2008, 02:43:15 PM
Quote
There's no way that the pilots that flew that route would ever notice

Do pilots in the Southern Hemisphere have you on speed dial?
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: lindelof on May 14, 2008, 02:44:06 PM
Quote
There's no way that the pilots that flew that route would ever notice

Do pilots in the Southern Hemisphere have you on speed dial?

Yes.  They do.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Anderkent on May 14, 2008, 02:56:07 PM
Its a wonder how none of the companies never noticed the fuel / distance consumption in southern hemisphere is threefold greater then in northern for no apparent reason at all... Or they did! Thats why there are so little flight paths in there!!

They just never came to research why it is so, not like it would save them $$$$ to know why and how...
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Youre avin a larf on May 14, 2008, 03:08:13 PM
In fact, planes from South America don't go to South Africa at all. There are very few international airports in South Africa, you see.
Oh good, a verifiable fact.
SA023 is a non stop flight from Sao Paulo to Jo'burg. It flies every day of the week
It has a flight time of approximately 11 hours.
How fast must it fly to do it in that time on your FE model?
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Youre avin a larf on May 15, 2008, 12:59:58 AM
As a starting point would you like to tell me how far it is in the FE model from Jo'burg to Sao Paulo.

I have not seen any detailed map posted here from which I can take an accurate measurement.
I could assume that your model plots the locations of cities on polar coordinates from the longitude and latitude and take your published disk diameter to calculate it.

btw is it just a coincidence that you claim the diameter of the world is the RE figure for equatorial circumference (24900 miles) or is there some empirical basis for this?
Could you also explain why the sun orbits at a height of exactly 3000 miles.
Is this just a 1 in a thousand coincidence, an arbitrary figure, or an approximation.
Again, what is the empirical basis for this figure?
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Ski on May 15, 2008, 07:38:27 AM
Eratosthenes proved how far away the sun was with his famous experiment
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Anderkent on May 15, 2008, 09:17:34 AM
Eratosthenes proved how far away the sun was with his famous experiment

Quote from: Wikipedia
Eratosthenes found the distance to the sun to be "σταδίων μυριάδας τετρακοσίας και οκτωκισμυρίας" (literally "of stadia myriads 400 and 80,000")

(...)

using the Greek, or Olympic, stadium of 185 metres, the figure of 804 million stadia that he quotes for the distance to the Sun comes to 149 million kilometres


So wheres the 3000 miles xO
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: lived_eht_asan on May 15, 2008, 09:37:11 AM
You can confirm the 3000 miles yourself with some simple experiments.  I encourage you to try these: http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/za23.htm
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: lived_eht_asan on May 15, 2008, 09:56:44 AM
Actually, the 3000 miles is right there in the article you read:

Quote from: Wikipedia
Eratosthenes knew that on the summer solstice at local noon in the Ancient Egyptian city of Swenet (known in Greek as Syene) on the Tropic of Cancer, the sun would appear at the zenith, directly overhead. He also knew, from measurement, that in his hometown of Alexandria, the angle of elevation of the Sun would be 1/50 of a full circle (7°12') south of the zenith at the same time. Assuming that Alexandria was due north of Syene he concluded that the distance from Alexandria to Syene must be 1/50 of the total circumference of the Earth. His estimated distance between the cities was 5000 stadia (about 500 geographical or nautical miles). He rounded the result to a final value of 700 stadia per degree, which implies a circumference of 252,000 stadia. The exact size of the stadion he used is frequently argued. The common Attic stadion was about 185 m, which would imply a circumference of 46,620 km, i.e. 16.3% too large. However, if we assume that Eratosthenes used the "Egyptian stadion"[citation needed] of about 157.5 m, his measurement turns out to be 39,690 km, an error of less than 1%.[1]

Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: markjo on May 15, 2008, 10:04:54 AM
You can confirm the 3000 miles yourself with some simple experiments.  I encourage you to try these: http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/za23.htm

Actually, Rowbotham calculates the distance from the sun to earth to be 700 miles in that link.

Quote
Hence it is demonstrable that the distance of the sun over that part of the earth to which it is vertical is only 700 statute miles.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Ski on May 15, 2008, 10:12:15 AM
It should be done on the equinox..
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Anderkent on May 15, 2008, 10:17:32 AM
Actually, the 3000 miles is right there in the article you read:

Quote from: Wikipedia
Eratosthenes knew that on the summer solstice at local noon in the Ancient Egyptian city of Swenet (known in Greek as Syene) on the Tropic of Cancer, the sun would appear at the zenith, directly overhead. He also knew, from measurement, that in his hometown of Alexandria, the angle of elevation of the Sun would be 1/50 of a full circle (7°12') south of the zenith at the same time. Assuming that Alexandria was due north of Syene he concluded that the distance from Alexandria to Syene must be 1/50 of the total circumference of the Earth. His estimated distance between the cities was 5000 stadia (about 500 geographical or nautical miles). He rounded the result to a final value of 700 stadia per degree, which implies a circumference of 252,000 stadia. The exact size of the stadion he used is frequently argued. The common Attic stadion was about 185 m, which would imply a circumference of 46,620 km, i.e. 16.3% too large. However, if we assume that Eratosthenes used the "Egyptian stadion"[citation needed] of about 157.5 m, his measurement turns out to be 39,690 km, an error of less than 1%.[1]



He's calculating earth's cimcumference there, not the distance to sun... And i still cannot find 3000 miles in this quotation. Be a bit more specific please?
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: lived_eht_asan on May 15, 2008, 10:28:30 AM

He's calculating earth's cimcumference there, not the distance to sun... And i still cannot find 3000 miles in this quotation. Be a bit more specific please?

That is only because he incorrectly assumed the Earth was round.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Youre avin a larf on May 15, 2008, 10:29:51 AM
You can confirm the 3000 miles yourself with some simple experiments.  I encourage you to try these: http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/za23.htm
OK, so the sun is 3000 miles above the earth on the basis of an experiment that concludes it is 700 miles up.
This works for you does it?
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: markjo on May 15, 2008, 10:33:36 AM
He's calculating earth's cimcumference there, not the distance to sun... And i still cannot find 3000 miles in this quotation. Be a bit more specific please?

Here is Tom Bishop's boilerplate explanation:
Quote
On March 21-22 the sun is directly overhead at the equator and appears 45 degrees above the horizon at 45 degrees north and south latitude. As the angle of sun above the earth at the equator is 90 degrees while it is 45 degrees at 45 degrees north or south latitude, it follows that the angle at the sun between the vertical from the horizon and the line from the observers at 45 degrees north and south must also be 45 degrees. The result is two right angled triangles with legs of equal length. The distance between the equator and the points at 45 degrees north or south is approximately 3,000 miles. Ergo, the sun would be an equal distance above the equator.

However, if you choose different latitudes for the measurements, then the distance to the sun changes too.  He never really does explain why that happens.

You can confirm the 3000 miles yourself with some simple experiments.  I encourage you to try these: http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/za23.htm
OK, so the sun is 3000 miles above the earth on the basis of an experiment that concludes it is 700 miles up.
This works for you does it?

Sometimes people will cite a reference without bothering to see if it actually supports their claim.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: lived_eht_asan on May 15, 2008, 11:22:35 AM
The point is, FET has already demonstrated empircal methods to find the distance to the sun, which you never bothered to research.  Don't worry about the exact figure until you accept that it is nowhere near as far as you think it is.

Eratosthenes figures are likely where the 3000 figure first came from.  Assume the world is flat, and the sun is not an infinite distance away- his numbers produce a triangle with a 7°12' angle and the short end 5000 stadia.  That puts the sun about 3000 miles up.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Youre avin a larf on May 15, 2008, 11:24:28 AM
Here is Tom Bishop's boilerplate explanation:
Quote
On March 21-22 the sun is directly overhead at the equator and appears 45 degrees above the horizon at 45 degrees north and south latitude. As the angle of sun above the earth at the equator is 90 degrees while it is 45 degrees at 45 degrees north or south latitude, it follows that the angle at the sun between the vertical from the horizon and the line from the observers at 45 degrees north and south must also be 45 degrees. The result is two right angled triangles with legs of equal length. The distance between the equator and the points at 45 degrees north or south is approximately 3,000 miles. Ergo, the sun would be an equal distance above the equator.

In addition to the sums being wrong at different latitude, the equatorial observer could mark the track of the sun on the ground over the period of two hours before, to two hours after midday.

Ok, FEers; what would the path be like?
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Anderkent on May 15, 2008, 11:32:33 AM
The point is, FET has already demonstrated empircal methods to find the distance to the sun, which you never bothered to research.  Don't worry about the exact figure until you accept that it is nowhere near as far as you think it is.

Eratosthenes figures are likely where the 3000 figure first came from.  Assume the world is flat, and the sun is not an infinite distance away- his numbers produce a triangle with a 7°12' angle and the short end 5000 stadia.  That puts the sun about 3000 miles up.

And these empirical methods give contradictory results. Yay!

Do NOT assume the earth is flat, it is something we are trying to PROVE.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Youre avin a larf on May 15, 2008, 11:36:18 AM
Eratosthenes figures are likely where the 3000 figure first came from.  Assume the world is flat, and the sun is not an infinite distance away- his numbers produce a triangle with a 7°12' angle and the short end 5000 stadia.  That puts the sun about 3000 miles up.
Did you do maths at school?

5000 stadia = 785Km. (or possibly 925km)

392.5/tan 3.56 = 6308km.

So even if FE were right this would put the sun 3919 miles up (over 4000 with the longer stadia)

Is this what passes for good science to FEers.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: markjo on May 15, 2008, 11:38:44 AM
Eratosthenes figures are likely where the 3000 figure first came from.  Assume the world is flat, and the sun is not an infinite distance away- his numbers produce a triangle with a 7°12' angle and the short end 5000 stadia.  That puts the sun about 3000 miles up.
Did you do maths at school?

5000 stadia = 785Km. (or possibly 925km)

392.5/tan 3.56 = 6308km.

So even if FE were right this would put the sun 3919 miles up (over 4000 with the longer stadia)

Is this what passes for good science to FEers.


Sadly, yes.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: lived_eht_asan on May 15, 2008, 11:58:51 AM
Please don't talk about math when you do this: 7°12' / 2 = 3.56°.  That is just plain retarded.


3000 is not my calculation, its an approximation accepted by FES, and the relative distance is supported by the observations of your own eyes when you look out the window.

It is most certainly not millions of km's, as you claim.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Ski on May 15, 2008, 12:01:32 PM
and the 3000 would vary from season to season as it approaches and recedes from the earth. Also, if you are calculating the distance to the observer, you may get a figure higher than this, as the 3000 miles is the height above the earth directly above it (ie. above the equator on equinox).
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on May 15, 2008, 12:01:42 PM
Oh no? What about the extremely entertaining parallax argument I made before. Go dig it up, its somewhere around, and no-one answered it...

And still, no-one has an argument for my point. Allow me to put a seed of doubt in your heads. If the distance was longer, and airports only load up just enough fuel for the journey(ironically, to save fuel due to weight), and the distance is up to 5 times longer, how on Earth do planes make it? And about your argument about times being based on experience rather than actual distance, how is it that a plane with a cruising speed of less Mach 1 is able to either travel further than the distance time ratio would allow on a FE, or break the speed of sound without anybody noticing?
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Anderkent on May 15, 2008, 12:03:19 PM
Please don't talk about math when you do this: 7°12' / 2 = 3.56°.  That is just plain retarded.


Even though, the difference between tan 3.56 and tan 3.60 is around 1%, that doesnt make up for the difference
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Youre avin a larf on May 15, 2008, 12:17:02 PM
Please don't talk about math when you do this: 7°12' / 2 = 3.56°.  That is just plain retarded.


3000 is not my calculation, its an approximation accepted by FES, and the relative distance is supported by the observations of your own eyes when you look out the window.

It is most certainly not millions of km's, as you claim.
Ok, in haste I mis-read the angle. It does not significantly change the point though.

By repeating the figure of 3000 miles you have implicitly accepted it, as you have again above.

So just what observation can you make when you look out of a window to support this?
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: ILOVESPHERES on May 15, 2008, 12:25:14 PM
Essentially if you apply a binomial expansion using the congruency shown by the cosine of the lengths, then we can draw the conclusion that the angle of elevation will be in the region of 180 degrees, which is impossible as this means the sun would remain over the same point. However if you look at the reciprical and take into account the nature of Handels left hand rule, then we can deviate through calculus that the sun spins at 66426.228(3.s.f) meters per second, if this was the case, then it would be constantly be producing sonicbooms, which surely we would hear, i reckon your figures are way off!!!
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: markjo on May 15, 2008, 12:43:42 PM
Essentially if you apply a binomial expansion using the congruency shown by the cosine of the lengths, then we can draw the conclusion that the angle of elevation will be in the region of 180 degrees, which is impossible as this means the sun would remain over the same point. However if you look at the reciprical and take into account the nature of Handels left hand rule, then we can deviate through calculus that the sun spins at 66426.228(3.s.f) meters per second, if this was the case, then it would be constantly be producing sonicbooms, which surely we would hear, i reckon your figures are way off!!!

Narcberry, is that you?
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: ILOVESPHERES on May 15, 2008, 12:46:30 PM
No, its an intruiged proffesor of maths, I've read a book recently about the FE theory and find myself thoroughly interested in the whole concept.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: lived_eht_asan on May 15, 2008, 12:53:51 PM
In essence, if you ask the binomial expansion of consistency shown that the cosine, length, and then we can conclude that the angle of the rise in that area is 180 degrees, which is impossible, because it means that the sun during the above The Samoa spot. However, if you look at that Reciprical and take into account the nature of the Handels-left rule, then we can go through the calculation that the sun rotates at 66.426,228 (3.sf) meters per second, if that is the case, then sonicbooms consistently produce, we certainly hear that the I tell that the figures are far!
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Youre avin a larf on May 15, 2008, 01:03:17 PM

3000 is not my calculation, its an approximation accepted by FES, and the relative distance is supported by the observations of your own eyes when you look out the window.

So, do you think this figure is correct?

Quote
It is most certainly not millions of km's, as you claim.

Actually I haven't made a claim, but I do believe that to be true.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Anderkent on May 15, 2008, 01:10:39 PM
Essentially if you apply a binomial expansion using the congruency shown by the cosine of the lengths, then we can draw the conclusion that the angle of elevation will be in the region of 180 degrees, which is impossible as this means the sun would remain over the same point. However if you look at the reciprical and take into account the nature of Handels left hand rule, then we can deviate through calculus that the sun spins at 66426.228(3.s.f) meters per second, if this was the case, then it would be constantly be producing sonicbooms, which surely we would hear, i reckon your figures are way off!!!

This post beats every other in number of things i had to google in order to understand it. Moreover, there are some that i simply couldnt find:

1. I cannot find a definition for reciprical anywhere. Did you possibly mean:
Reciprocal - Used to denote different kinds of mutual relation;
        often with reference to the substitution of reciprocals
        for given quantities.


If not, could you please explain (here or in pm) what reciprical is? English is not my native language.

2. What is Handels left hand rule? The only left hand rule i know is the Fleming's one.

3. Could you/someone therefore explain, prefferably in simple words, why should sun spin at that speed? Complete proof is of course not neccessary, i need a way to grasp the idea.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: markjo on May 15, 2008, 01:14:53 PM
Essentially if you apply a binomial expansion using the congruency shown by the cosine of the lengths, then we can draw the conclusion that the angle of elevation will be in the region of 180 degrees, which is impossible as this means the sun would remain over the same point. However if you look at the reciprical and take into account the nature of Handels left hand rule, then we can deviate through calculus that the sun spins at 66426.228(3.s.f) meters per second, if this was the case, then it would be constantly be producing sonicbooms, which surely we would hear, i reckon your figures are way off!!!

This post beats every other in number of things i had to google in order to understand it. Moreover, there are some that i simply couldnt find:

1. I cannot find a definition for reciprical anywhere. Did you possibly mean:
Reciprocal - Used to denote different kinds of mutual relation;
        often with reference to the substitution of reciprocals
        for given quantities.


If not, could you please explain (here or in pm) what reciprical is? English is not my native language.

2. What is Handels left hand rule? The only left hand rule i know is the Fleming's one.

3. Could you/someone therefore explain, prefferably in simple words, why should sun spin at that speed? Complete proof is of course not neccessary, i need a way to grasp the idea.

I'm thinking that it's a case of "if you can't dazzle them with brilliance, then baffle them with B.S."
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Colonel Gaydafi on May 15, 2008, 01:16:16 PM
Essentially if you apply a binomial expansion using the congruency shown by the cosine of the lengths, then we can draw the conclusion that the angle of elevation will be in the region of 180 degrees, which is impossible as this means the sun would remain over the same point. However if you look at the reciprical and take into account the nature of Handels left hand rule, then we can deviate through calculus that the sun spins at 66426.228(3.s.f) meters per second, if this was the case, then it would be constantly be producing sonicbooms, which surely we would hear, i reckon your figures are way off!!!

This post beats every other in number of things i had to google in order to understand it. Moreover, there are some that i simply couldnt find:

1. I cannot find a definition for reciprical anywhere. Did you possibly mean:
Reciprocal - Used to denote different kinds of mutual relation;
        often with reference to the substitution of reciprocals
        for given quantities.


If not, could you please explain (here or in pm) what reciprical is? English is not my native language.

2. What is Handels left hand rule? The only left hand rule i know is the Fleming's one.

3. Could you/someone therefore explain, prefferably in simple words, why should sun spin at that speed? Complete proof is of course not neccessary, i need a way to grasp the idea.

I'm thinking that it's a case of "if you can't dazzle them with brilliance, then baffle them with B.S."

I'm starting to really like you markjo, you spot these things well
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on May 15, 2008, 01:16:23 PM
Essentially if you apply a binomial expansion using the congruency shown by the cosine of the lengths, then we can draw the conclusion that the angle of elevation will be in the region of 180 degrees, which is impossible as this means the sun would remain over the same point. However if you look at the reciprical and take into account the nature of Handels left hand rule, then we can deviate through calculus that the sun spins at 66426.228(3.s.f) meters per second, if this was the case, then it would be constantly be producing sonicbooms, which surely we would hear, i reckon your figures are way off!!!

Narcberry, is that you?

This IS narberry. Handel is a composer, not a mathematician, and any fool who knows how sound works would not tell you that a spinning object in space can produce sonicbooms. Furthermore, use something called your common sense. How, how in the world, can the distance of one object to another affect the rotational velocity of said spherical object? Anyone who falls for this deserves a whack.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: lindelof on May 15, 2008, 01:18:05 PM
Is narcberry serious about the stuff he says?
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: ILOVESPHERES on May 15, 2008, 01:21:13 PM
1. Reciprocal is a more complex, too complex if you ask me, for of finding the reverse of an equation, it is done by factorising the coefficients within a formula, then multiplying out and dividing by the common factor in reference to the previouslt identified coefficient series.
2. Handel's left rule states, that light rays coming from the sun, or any other stars, cannot be refracted in certain ways, depending on the speed of rotation, the left hand element is somewhat irrelevant.
3. The reason for this speed being calculated, is due to the derivation of first finding the reciprocal, then substituting values into the equation having made a correlation between the suns ray exposure and its refraction, then you come out with the figure previously quoted.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on May 15, 2008, 01:22:51 PM
No, narcberry is a prankster and a troll, some would categorize him as an evil clown, but I think he is:

http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/impostor.htm

Really, he just pretends to be anyone to amuse himself...including an FE'er. Or this could be Saddam.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: markjo on May 15, 2008, 01:23:44 PM
I'm starting to really like you markjo, you spot these things well

Thank you.  Although in a place like this, it really isn't all that hard.   ;D
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on May 15, 2008, 01:26:44 PM
1. Reciprocal is a more complex, too complex if you ask me, for of finding the reverse of an equation, it is done by factorising the coefficients within a formula, then multiplying out and dividing by the common factor in reference to the previouslt identified coefficient series.
2. Handel's left rule states, that light rays coming from the sun, or any other stars, cannot be refracted in certain ways, depending on the speed of rotation, the left hand element is somewhat irrelevant.
3. The reason for this speed being calculated, is due to the derivation of first finding the reciprocal, then substituting values into the equation having made a correlation between the suns ray exposure and its refraction, then you come out with the figure previously quoted.

Aah, this is so much fun.

1. Oh, is that so? And what equation is this? And do you mean the reciprocal rule(which isn't so bad), or the multiplicative inverse(which is without doubt, the most complex mathematical concept devised to man)?

2. And you just made this one up on the spot, eh? And what precisely does it have to do with your left hand, since all these "hand rules" have a basis in what you can check with a hand. Like the right hand rules for EM.

3. Oh, this is so much fun. And tell me, what is refraction caused by? Light. Tell me the behavior of light. That's right, it doesn't have anything to do with rotation, it travels just the same. You can spin the light source all you like, the refraction through an atmosphere behaves just the same.

4. How the hell did sound travel through space?

Now get off this thread before Engy comes around.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: lindelof on May 15, 2008, 01:27:42 PM
Aww.  Cranks aren't nearly as fun when they're faking it
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on May 15, 2008, 01:34:03 PM
Huh. This is interesting. Look at his first post.

I'm going to break THE NEWS TO YOU NOW, YOUR ALL INSANE WHAT IS YOUR DEFECT?!! Clearly the earth is nice and round, like a peach.
I am a well cultured boy from a background of religious beleivers, rumor has it, that the world was made by god, why would he build it like a monopoly board? Surley he would be far more satisfied with a smooth round product, similar to a tennis ball given to a little boy!! As we all know, god had a long flowing beard, it was so lucious, that it was the envy of many men, i ask you this, if god needed to cut and shape his fine beard, and the world was flat, surely when he whips out his gillete fusion for a sesh, his beardy fur clippings would sprinkle all over the earth? That doesn't happen, so in conclusion you are all ridiculous.
Lots of love,
Burger nips

Little bit of a turnaround in personality, eh?
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: lived_eht_asan on May 15, 2008, 04:10:46 PM
In essence, if you ask the binomial expansion of consistency shown that the cosine, length, and then we can conclude that the angle of the rise in that area is 180 degrees, which is impossible, because it means that the sun during the above The Samoa spot. However, if you look at that Reciprical and take into account the nature of the Handels-left rule, then we can go through the calculation that the sun rotates at 66.426,228 (3.sf) meters per second, if that is the case, then sonicbooms consistently produce, we certainly hear that the I tell that the figures are far!


Anyone who thought he actually meant this nonsense, is an idiot.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Anderkent on May 15, 2008, 04:32:36 PM
In essence, if you ask the binomial expansion of consistency shown that the cosine, length, and then we can conclude that the angle of the rise in that area is 180 degrees, which is impossible, because it means that the sun during the above The Samoa spot. However, if you look at that Reciprical and take into account the nature of the Handels-left rule, then we can go through the calculation that the sun rotates at 66.426,228 (3.sf) meters per second, if that is the case, then sonicbooms consistently produce, we certainly hear that the I tell that the figures are far!


Anyone who thought he actually meant this nonsense, is an idiot.

Some people dont think they are omniscient and try to analyse a post before taking it as bullshit. There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

Is asking for an explanation such a bad thing?
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on May 15, 2008, 05:47:11 PM
In essence, if you ask the binomial expansion of consistency shown that the cosine, length, and then we can conclude that the angle of the rise in that area is 180 degrees, which is impossible, because it means that the sun during the above The Samoa spot. However, if you look at that Reciprical and take into account the nature of the Handels-left rule, then we can go through the calculation that the sun rotates at 66.426,228 (3.sf) meters per second, if that is the case, then sonicbooms consistently produce, we certainly hear that the I tell that the figures are far!


Anyone who thought he actually meant this nonsense, is an idiot.

We may be on opposite sides of this issue, but on this point I agree with you wholeheartedly.

Quote from: Ankerdent


Some people dont think they are omniscient and try to analyse a post before taking it as bullshit. There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

Is asking for an explanation such a bad thing?

Don't be silly. There are fifteen inconsistencies in his ridiculous speech, and just because someone is or claims to be on your side of an issue does not mean you should agree with and support any nonsense they say or do.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Youre avin a larf on May 16, 2008, 12:20:57 AM
In fact, planes from South America don't go to South Africa at all. There are very few international airports in South Africa, you see.
Oh good, a verifiable fact.
SA023 is a non stop flight from Sao Paulo to Jo'burg. It flies every day of the week
It has a flight time of approximately 11 hours.
How fast must it fly to do it in that time on your FE model?

Come on.

Is there no FE'er who can tell me on the basis of your model how far it is from Sao Paulo to Jo'burg.

Tom Bishop: Are you not bothered that something you have stated as fact "there are no flights.." is so easily shown to be wrong. Isn't it a bit dishonest to not either acknowledge you are wrong or, I dunno, claim everyone at SAA is in on the conspiracy?
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on May 16, 2008, 10:49:44 AM
Larf, there are only a few reasonable FE'ers who post alot here, and Tom is not one of them. If you want reasonable discussion with a FE'er, try Username, Dogplatter, and maybe some of the more recent guys(I haven't yet seen enough of Ski and eht_ehsan to make a judgment on them)
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Youre avin a larf on May 16, 2008, 10:59:14 AM
Larf, there are only a few reasonable FE'ers who post alot here, and Tom is not one of them. If you want reasonable discussion with a FE'er, try Username, Dogplatter, and maybe some of the more recent guys(I haven't yet seen enough of Ski and eht_ehsan to make a judgment on them)

Thanks.

To be honest, I'm looking for anyone to reply to my questions.

From reading many of the threads the FE'ers appear to treat TB like some sort of authority.

He has visited the forum since I have left questions for him.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on May 16, 2008, 11:02:12 AM
No, not really, it would be a mistake to think that. Most of the serious FE'er treat him as a joke, and pretend to look to him as authority for a laugh. Really, just step back a moment, read his posts, and you'll see he's excellent comic relief.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Youre avin a larf on May 16, 2008, 11:06:39 AM
No, not really, it would be a mistake to think that. Most of the serious FE'er treat him as a joke, and pretend to look to him as authority for a laugh. Really, just step back a moment, read his posts, and you'll see he's excellent comic relief.

OK then anyone, really anyone, who believes in FE wanna answer my posts.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: TheEngineer on May 16, 2008, 11:10:58 AM
From reading many of the threads the FE'ers appear to treat TB like some sort of authority.
You must be dyslexic.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: lived_eht_asan on May 16, 2008, 11:30:36 AM
In fact, planes from South America don't go to South Africa at all. There are very few international airports in South Africa, you see.
Oh good, a verifiable fact.
SA023 is a non stop flight from Sao Paulo to Jo'burg. It flies every day of the week
It has a flight time of approximately 11 hours.
How fast must it fly to do it in that time on your FE model?

Come on.

Is there no FE'er who can tell me on the basis of your model how far it is from Sao Paulo to Jo'burg.

Tom Bishop: Are you not bothered that something you have stated as fact "there are no flights.." is so easily shown to be wrong. Isn't it a bit dishonest to not either acknowledge you are wrong or, I dunno, claim everyone at SAA is in on the conspiracy?

I certainly do not speak for FE'ers.  But based on the evidence at hand, I do believe the world to be flat.

The problem is that we do not have an accepted map.  If you really want to pursue the point, you can make the same arguments without the map.  Assume distance Sao Paulo to Jo'burg is X.  Conclude that distance from City 1 and City 2 must be more than Y.  If FE makes X shorter, than Y must be longer.

I really don't think you'll get anywhere with the argument however.  (1) significant effect of jetstreams (example provided cut flight time by 1/3), (2) the non-linear routes, and (3) the fact that most flights are not directly between continents.  Flight time is a fluid, moving target.  People guage it by how long it seems to ordinarily take, not how long it looks on RE map.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: fshy94 on May 16, 2008, 11:35:07 AM
I've heard that argument before, and I dispute for the following reasons.

1. Whether or not jetstreams could do it, they're not observed in that area. There are no siginificant jet streams in the Southern hemisphere.

2 & 3. If that was so, we would see significant time/distance/speed problems, as I think we can agree that with jetstream or no, if a plane like this breaks the sound barrier, it would be destroyed. Therefore, our maximum speed is Mach 1, and that simply is not possible.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Youre avin a larf on May 16, 2008, 11:48:01 AM
This discussion continues on it's own thread. Do keep up.



I certainly do not speak for FE'ers.  But based on the evidence at hand, I do believe the world to be flat.

What evidence. You have still to tell me what you can see 'with your own eyes out of a window'.

Quote
The problem is that we do not have an accepted map.


RE does, so that would make it not only a FE problem but a fundamental flaw in the hypothesis.
Quote
If you really want to pursue the point, you can make the same arguments without the map.  Assume distance Sao Paulo to Jo'burg is X.  Conclude that distance from City 1 and City 2 must be more than Y.  If FE makes X shorter, than Y must be longer.

The distance between the the two cities mentioned and the published and verifiable flight times is entirely consistent with the published cruising speed of the A340.
However without any comparison to RE either the distance or speed has to be wrong in the FE model.
Which is it?

Quote
I really don't think you'll get anywhere with the argument however.  (1) significant effect of jetstreams (example provided cut flight time by 1/3), (2) the non-linear routes, and (3) the fact that most flights are not directly between continents. 

None of the above can make an A340 appear to fly at mach 3.
Quote
Flight time is a fluid, moving target.  People guage it by how long it seems to ordinarily take, not how long it looks on RE map.

I think you'll find that most people gauge time with a watch.
Either everyone on the plane has to be in on the conspiracy or every plane spookily lands very, very late.



Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Ski on May 16, 2008, 11:56:04 AM
I've heard that argument before, and I dispute for the following reasons.

1. Whether or not jetstreams could do it, they're not observed in that area. There are no siginificant jet streams in the Southern hemisphere.

2 & 3. If that was so, we would see significant time/distance/speed problems, as I think we can agree that with jetstream or no, if a plane like this breaks the sound barrier, it would be destroyed. Therefore, our maximum speed is Mach 1, and that simply is not possible.

1. There are jetstreams in the Southern Hemisphere.

2. One's ground speed could break whatever the mach number was for that altitude without the airspeed exceeding that of sound. For example your A340-600 could reach a ground speed of 1315kmph with a jet stream tail wind, while not exceeding mach in airspeed. I don't have the data from Airbus to suggest that the Vne is above or below mach (though I'd suspect it is below).
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Youre avin a larf on May 16, 2008, 12:10:23 PM
The answer to this will appear on the A340 thread.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: lived_eht_asan on May 16, 2008, 12:10:45 PM

Quote
Flight time is a fluid, moving target.  People guage it by how long it seems to ordinarily take, not how long it looks on RE map.

I think you'll find that most people gauge time with a watch.
Either everyone on the plane has to be in on the conspiracy or every plane spookily lands very, very late.

I think Ski has addressed the other points very well.

Regarding this one, why would the flight be late?  Late compared to what?  They judge the flight based on how long it took last time, not by calculating distance and speed.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Ski on May 16, 2008, 12:12:14 PM
The answer to this will appear on the A340 thread.

Really? Some one addressed a Vne speed from Airbus and I missed it?
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: Youre avin a larf on May 16, 2008, 12:32:24 PM

Really? Some one addressed a Vne speed from Airbus and I missed it?


The required speed is out by a factor of at least four, and you are bothered about vne.
You're not really seeing the big picture are you?

btw, If we are being pedantic, SAA operate A340-200's and -300E's on the South America route, the -600's are used on other routes.
Title: Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
Post by: markjo on May 16, 2008, 01:19:01 PM
I've heard that argument before, and I dispute for the following reasons.

1. Whether or not jetstreams could do it, they're not observed in that area. There are no siginificant jet streams in the Southern hemisphere.

2 & 3. If that was so, we would see significant time/distance/speed problems, as I think we can agree that with jetstream or no, if a plane like this breaks the sound barrier, it would be destroyed. Therefore, our maximum speed is Mach 1, and that simply is not possible.

1. There are jetstreams in the Southern Hemisphere.

2. One's ground speed could break whatever the mach number was for that altitude without the airspeed exceeding that of sound. For example your A340-600 could reach a ground speed of 1315kmph with a jet stream tail wind, while not exceeding mach in airspeed. I don't have the data from Airbus to suggest that the Vne is above or below mach (though I'd suspect it is below).

Last I knew, the jet streams are a fairly narrow phenomenon that only flow one way and can have a highly variable course.  I would think that are more of a target of opportunity, rather than something that an airline would count on for regularly scheduled flights.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_stream