When will RE Community Accept Defeat?

Quote from: Tom Bishop on August 15, 2019, 01:08:35 AM

Quote from: Stash on August 15, 2019, 01:07:01 AM

Quote from: Tom Bishop on August 15, 2019, 12:43:07 AM

Quote from: Stash on August 15, 2019, 12:37:17 AM

Now, if you could tell us where your Sun is right now, that would be great.

Download the Flat Earth Sun Moon & Clock app.

I'm thinking you meant this as a joke, right?

No. It directly shows where the sun would be over on a Flat Earth Monopole model and answers your query of "where is the sun right now???"

Your turn. Show us a Round Earth model of the sun that is based on RET rather than historic patterns.

Ok, maybe you weren't making a joke, my bad. But Jeran's 2.99 app is a joke.

- First of all, ironically it uses a globe projection as the "model", strike 1.
- Watch makers have done this, mechanically, for 100's of years, so what's the big "Flat Earth" deal? Strike 2.
- The mono-pole model doesn't work and you know it and that's why you lean bi-pole (doesn't work either). Strike 3.

Your complaints are "I think FE is based in globe!", "Too easy!!" and "Monopole don't work!"

However, those appear to be entirely different subjects. Whether the model is right or wrong, the clock does show where the Sun would be over that model at any given time and directly answers the query.

Quote from: Stash on August 15, 2019, 01:23:21 AM

Quote from: Tom Bishop on August 15, 2019, 01:08:35 AM

Quote from: Stash on August 15, 2019, 01:07:01 AM

Quote from: Tom Bishop on August 15, 2019, 12:43:07 AM

Quote from: Stash on August 15, 2019, 12:37:17 AM

Now, if you could tell us where your Sun is right now, that would be great.

Download the Flat Earth Sun Moon & Clock app.

I'm thinking you meant this as a joke, right?

No. It directly shows where the sun would be over on a Flat Earth Monopole model and answers your query of "where is the sun right now???"

Your turn. Show us a Round Earth model of the sun that is based on RET rather than historic patterns.

Ok, maybe you weren't making a joke, my bad. But Jeran's 2.99 app is a joke.

- First of all, ironically it uses a globe projection as the "model", strike 1.
- Watch makers have done this, mechanically, for 100's of years, so what's the big "Flat Earth" deal? Strike 2.
- The mono-pole model doesn't work and you know it and that's why you lean bi-pole (doesn't work either). Strike 3.

Your complaints are "I think FE is based in globe!", "Too easy!!" and "Monopole don't work!"

However, those appear to be entirely different subjects. Whether the model is right or wrong, the clock does show where the Sun would be over that model at any given time and directly answers the query.

Yes let's compare the models, 'sphere earth' and 'flat earth'! despite the fact that there is no single FE model, just look around and compare what you can observe with the sphere model, like sunset/moonset, rise, eclipses, phases, planets etc.

You will find they all are consistent with the 'sphere model'. The sphere model describes the nature around us REALLY good.

Let me know if you have seen something that you think is inconsistent with the globe model.

Quote from: Stash on August 15, 2019, 01:23:21 AM

Quote from: Tom Bishop on August 15, 2019, 01:08:35 AM

Quote from: Stash on August 15, 2019, 01:07:01 AM

Quote from: Tom Bishop on August 15, 2019, 12:43:07 AM

Quote from: Stash on August 15, 2019, 12:37:17 AM

Now, if you could tell us where your Sun is right now, that would be great.

Download the Flat Earth Sun Moon & Clock app.

I'm thinking you meant this as a joke, right?

No. It directly shows where the sun would be over on a Flat Earth Monopole model and answers your query of "where is the sun right now???"

Your turn. Show us a Round Earth model of the sun that is based on RET rather than historic patterns.

Ok, maybe you weren't making a joke, my bad. But Jeran's 2.99 app is a joke.

- First of all, ironically it uses a globe projection as the "model", strike 1.
- Watch makers have done this, mechanically, for 100's of years, so what's the big "Flat Earth" deal? Strike 2.
- The mono-pole model doesn't work and you know it and that's why you lean bi-pole (doesn't work either). Strike 3.

Your complaints are "I think FE is based in globe!", "Too easy!!" and "Monopole don't work!"

However, those appear to be entirely different subjects. Whether the model is right or wrong, the clock does show where the Sun would be over that model at any given time and directly answers the query.

No, I didn't say "FE is based in globe". I have always just found it ironic that the main FE model uses a Globe projection map at it's core. Maybe you just don't get irony.

No, I didn't say, "Too easy". Just that the whole marketing scheme/videos and stuff behind the app make it seem like this has never been done before. If you want to give Jeran $2.99 for something that I can get from timeandate.com and myriad other places for free, that's your business.

No, I didn't say, "Monopole don't work!" Well, I kind of did, admittedly. But I know it and you know it and we don't have to get into the million ways that's true right here right now.

The problem your missing is that this thread has no known model, so no, it doesn't directly answer the query.

Quote from: Stash on August 15, 2019, 12:37:17 AM

Now, if you could tell us where your Sun is right now, that would be great.

Download the Flat Earth Sun Moon & Clock app.

But Stash wasn't asking for a semi-official, FES view on where the sun is. He was asking Plat Terra to say where he personally thought the sun was, and I am sure you know that. This website's own front page states that the views of its "free thinker" members are "widely varied"; it is legitimate  for Stash to have asked one of those members to explain his personal explanation for the movement of the sun. As a reader of the thread, I would find that personal explanation more interesting than your deflection.

So shall we let Plat Terra answer the question?

Quote from: Stash on August 15, 2019, 12:37:17 AM

Now, if you could tell us where your Sun is right now, that would be great.

Download the Flat Earth Sun Moon & Clock app.

Holy shit, I thought you were joking....but that app really exists and it costs 3 dollar!

Somehow this is sad....to make money from stupid people is not very nice. Reminds me of Belle Delphine and her "bathwater", which she sells to thirsty virgins...

The opposition here denies the facts of a Plane Earth. Why?

Because it isn't a fact.
If it was, in the picture you keep providing, you would see all the way to the shore.
You are posting evidence which refutes a FE.

You have ran away from issues which refute a FE, repeatedly playing dumb, and then when it is clearly explained, you just ignore it and run.

It really doesn't matter if you can't reason because at the end of the day science and observation win

That's right, and science and observation results in one firmly concluding that Earth is round, as that is what all the evidence supports.


Do you not notice the difference between those 2?
Does the one on the left look anything like the rogers centre?
NO!
Again, if Earth was flat, you should see the nice curved roof and all the way down to the ground.
The fact you don't is strong evidence against a FE.

You want to appeal to a magical mirage just magically blocking the view, while at the same time, ignoring the very real properties of refraction which allows one to see significantly further than estimated by just considering the curvature alone.

Perspective doesn't work that way.

And just why doesn't it?
Just how do you think it should work?
The objects are far enough away that they can be approximated with the small x approximation, and thus you can just scale down an image to produce how large the object should be.

It seems that makes it quite clear that it can't be your magical mirage hiding it due to the extreme angle required, so now you make up some other excuse to save your failed model.

Now, care to try explaining why the sun appears to set?

No. It directly shows where the sun would be over on a Flat Earth Monopole model and answers your query of "where is the sun right now???"

And completely fails to match observation.
For example, it gets the direction of the sun completely wrong in the south during the southern summer.
It also fails at the equinox.

So I would say it is still your turn.
Give us a model, which actually matches observations.

Your turn. Show us a Round Earth model of the sun that is based on RET rather than historic patterns.

There are plenty that exist, for example:
https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/sunearth.html
https://www.suncalc.org/

You can even do it yourself.
If you want one which roughly works, you can estimate the current inclination based upon a simple sine or cosine and estimate the position above Earth where the sun is based upon the time and a 24 hour period, and then determine the direction based upon spherical geometry.

To make it more accurate you can consider the eccentricity of the orbit, the actual rotation rate, the effect of the inclination, the effect of the moon and if you really want the precession of the orbit.

Quote from: Stash on August 15, 2019, 12:37:17 AM

Now, if you could tell us where your Sun is right now, that would be great.

Download the Flat Earth Sun Moon & Clock app.

You might find this entertaining:

Flat Earther's new App debunks their own model. Why would they do that?

Then again, you might not.
That "Flat Earth Sun Moon & Clock app" makes it so easy to see that, at least "Downunder", the usual monopole flat earth sun's path is quite incorrect.

I know that here in summer the Sunrise and Sunset directions are nowhere near the direction that app would indicate.
Maybe that app was made by someone who was trying to demonstrate that the sun's path on the North Pole centred AEP map is quite wrong.

Whatever the case, it has succeeded in doing that admirably.

The Flat Earth app is great for showing that FE doesn't work and for the humor.

Quote from: Stash on August 15, 2019, 01:07:01 AM

Quote from: Tom Bishop on August 15, 2019, 12:43:07 AM

Quote from: Stash on August 15, 2019, 12:37:17 AM

Now, if you could tell us where your Sun is right now, that would be great.

Download the Flat Earth Sun Moon & Clock app.

I'm thinking you meant this as a joke, right?

No. It directly shows where the sun would be over on a Flat Earth Monopole model and answers your query of "where is the sun right now???"

Your turn. Show us a Round Earth model of the sun that is based on RET rather than historic patterns.

How do we know that the app is based on FET rather than historic patterns?  Have you verified the app's sunrise and sunset directions?

The app doesn't make sunrise direction predictions. It shows the location of the Sun over a Monopole model. The direction of the sun in relation to the map is generally consistent with what is seen during the day, however.

The East/West sunrise/sunset direction is part of the same explanation for why the sun does not change size and is discussed at https://wiki.tfes.org/Equinox#A_Flat_Earth_Equinox

The app doesn't make sunrise direction predictions. It shows the location of the Sun over a Monopole model. The direction of the sun in relation to the map is generally consistent with what is seen during the day, however.

Showing the current location of the sun on a map is a prediction.  Have you personally verified that the app's prediction of the sun's current location is consistent with what is seen during the day?

Black box programming.
If it works - One possibility is that it references a nasa sun data and just regurgitates it onto the north pole projection map.
Cant be sure unless they open source their software code.

Quote from: Tom Bishop on August 15, 2019, 12:43:07 AM

Quote from: Stash on August 15, 2019, 12:37:17 AM

Now, if you could tell us where your Sun is right now, that would be great.

Download the Flat Earth Sun Moon & Clock app.

You might find this entertaining:

Flat Earther's new App debunks their own model. Why would they do that?

Then again, you might not.
That "Flat Earth Sun Moon & Clock app" makes it so easy to see that, at least "Downunder", the usual monopole flat earth sun's path is quite incorrect.

I know that here in summer the Sunrise and Sunset directions are nowhere near the direction that app would indicate.
Maybe that app was made by someone who was trying to demonstrate that the sun's path on the North Pole centred AEP map is quite wrong.

Whatever the case, it has succeeded in doing that admirably.

I didn’t know about the app until I originally saw this video. I can’t believe someone would bother to mention the app these days.

Quote from: Sunset on August 14, 2019, 07:31:23 PM

Plat tera, do you have any evidence for a "walled mirage"? I know about superior mirages and inferior mirages. But I mean, what is a walled mirage? Is it another name for a wall of water?

If it is, then another name for a walled mirage in your creative meme, is "curvature of the Earth".

Your walled mirage is a wall of water from the lake's surface being curved, blocking out the lower portion of that cityscape showing the tower at the Rogers centre. If anything, I bet there's a superior mirage at play, which enables more of the cityscape to be seen on this occasion than other occasions.

Just out of general curiosity, I'll dig up some other photos of that cityscape from 30.84 miles away at 6 foot height, with different atmospheric conditions, and we'll see if more or less of the cityscape is hidden behind a wall of water than in your meme photos......

Oh, and in your meme, in your bottom right image, there isn't any mirage blocking the distant shoreline. The distant shoreline is in shadow and reduced due to high tide, and the camera settings don't enable the camera to pick up as much detail as when that shoreline is in direct sunlight as from the morning sun.

I take my hat off to you for creativity, plat tera. If you are the inventor of "walled mirages", you may be in the running for not a Nobel prize, but a Knodel prize, courtesy of Bob Knodel!

The mirage is the least of your major problems. The Rogers Centre is visible and shouldn't be according to a 3959 mile radius. Again, since the Centre is visible what is the new size of your Earth and Heliocentric theory? It does not match your current one.

BTW, it's a linear mirror image of waters' surface that's above the surface of the water like a superior mirage. Or like a mirror image of a surface that's above the surface of ground. It blocks the view of things behind it. It happens over water and land.

Well, you're right about one thing, plat tera - the mirage is the least of my problems. But the mirage is a big problem for your flat earth proof.   

I explained in my last post how and why the Rogers Centre can be visible at that distance over lake water on a spherical earth with radius of 3959 miles, and other members have explained the same in much greater detail for you.

So tell me, is "linear mirror image of water's surface", your made up term, or a Jeranism made up term? It's make believe and is not like a superior mirage at all. Here's why:

There are only two types of mirage. Inferior and Superior. The inferior mirage is caused by heated ground which creates a layer of heated air just above the surface, which is much hotter than cooler air above. (You've provided a great inferior mirage photo with the two men in the photo above. Thanks!  ) Inferior mirages create the illusion of shimmering sky blue on the ground, which is what happens on hot roads or desert sands where dehydrated and weary travellers mistake what they are seeing as salvation with an oasis of water ahead.

A superior mirage is the opposite. It's created by a layer of cold air above a surface, like water in a lake, with hotter air above. Superior mirages bring images up, while inferior mirages bring images (sky blue) down.  Your cityscape photo is a classic example of a superior mirage. 







Has your question been answered plat tera, as to when the re community (7.7 billion and climbing) will accept defeat?

The app doesn't make sunrise direction predictions. It shows the location of the Sun over a Monopole model.

And you can then use those to determine where the sun should appear at a given location (i.e. the direction to the sun) and compare that to reality.
It fails repeatedly.

The direction of the sun in relation to the map is generally consistent with what is seen during the day, however.

No it doesn't.
The azimuth matches fairly well at mid day, but the elevation is wrong.
The azimuth matches quite poorly away from mid day and the elevation is still wrong.

It is generally inconsistent with what is actually observed.

The East/West sunrise/sunset direction is part of the same explanation for why the sun does not change size and is discussed at https://wiki.tfes.org/Equinox#A_Flat_Earth_Equinox

Which doesn't work at all. And doesn't have the equinox being special in any way.
It relies upon only a tiny portion of Earth being illuminated at any given time, rather than roughly half.
Where for example, you would only see the sun if it was above a location some 10s of km away.
But even then, it would still only appear due east for the people along the path of the sub-solar point.
For those north or south, it wouldn't. And it wouldn't appear to rise at all.
And of course, it would mean most regions would be in darkness for months, only getting sunlight for a brief period each day for a few days. Other regions would always be in darkness.

What you actually need to explain the due east sunrise (without appealing to magic) is for the sun to be in basically the same direction for all those along a line of longitude. That would mean that the sun is very far away and illuminating a very large region.

As I have shown elsewhere, simple trig shows this to be the case.
Lets consider a time where for one line of longitude it is roughly due east, and for the opposite line it is roughly due west. (Which does occur)
Lets look at the 2 points on the equator, and assume that it is 1 degree off.
So for a point 10000 km away from the centre it is 1 degree north of due east, and for the other point it is 1 degree north of due west.
This results in an isosceles triangle (the other point being the sun), with the equal angle being 89 degrees, and the base being 20 000 km.
This makes the height tan(89 deg)*10 000 km =~ 570 000 km.

That puts it well off Earth.

So no, that excuse of just illuminating a tiny region simply doesn't work.

Likewise, for the exact same problems, with the required region of illumination, it not changing size doesn't work.

Sure, if the sun was at an altitude of roughly 5000 km and was only visible when the sub-solar point was within 10 km, it would appear roughly the same size.
That would also mean it would only every appear high in the sky, basically straight up. Never rising or setting.

What you need is for the sun to appear to go near the horizon, i.e. rise and set. But if the sun remains at roughly 5000 km, this requires it to be very far away horizontally.
This then results in a massive difference in the distance to the sun and thus a massive difference in the apparent size.

You are quite happy using cars and jet skis to pretend that the sun should rise due east, but you then completely ignore that they start off tiny and change size dramatically.

So no actual answer there.

So again, we have FE completely unable to explain the apparent direction to the sun nor why it remains roughly the same size, nor why it appears to rise and set.
Meanwhile, we have a RE model which is capable of accurately predicting the apparent direction to the sun, and which explains why it remains roughly the same size and why it appears to rise and set.

So why should REers be accepting defeat? It sure seems like FEers should be.

There is no elevation in that app. You are making things up, as usual.

The app accurately shows where the sun is over a Flat Earth Monopole model.

Your further queries about exact positioning has more to do with a fallacious assumption that we can see infinitely and forever into the distance without any physical modification of sight, practically relying on your own imagination for how the world should be without any demonstration of that matter.

There is no elevation in that app. You are making things up, as usual.

The app accurately shows where the sun is over a Flat Earth Monopole model.

Which was shown to not match reality. As such, the earth is not flat. 

Glad you agree.

There is no elevation in that app. You are making things up, as usual.

The app accurately shows where the sun is over a Flat Earth Monopole model.

Have you verified that it accurately shows where the sun is in the sky?

Your further queries about exact positioning has more to do with a fallacious assumption that we can see infinitely and forever into the distance without any physical modification of sight, practically relying on your own imagination for how the world should be without any demonstration of that matter.

Tom, it's time to retire this silly straw man.  No one is claiming that the sun is infinitely far away.

The East/West sunrise/sunset direction is part of the same explanation for why the sun does not change size and is discussed at https://wiki.tfes.org/Equinox#A_Flat_Earth_Equinox

The description of flat earth equinox in that link is pure fantasy.  It's just a bunch of ideas pulled from someone's ass in order to give FE some appearance of fitting reality. It does not stand up to scrutiny.

There is no elevation in that app. You are making things up, as usual.

No, I am assuming the standard 5000 km altitude and can use the distance to determine elevation.

The app accurately shows where the sun is over a Flat Earth Monopole model.

But not where it is in reality.
That is the problem.
You are unable to produce a FE model which matches reality.
You cannot explain why the sun appears in the locations that it does at the times that it does.

Your further queries about exact positioning has more to do with a fallacious assumption that we can see infinitely

No it doesn't, not in the slightest.
Instead it is entirely to do with when the sun is observed and how far away the various models indicate it should be.

The app accurately shows where the sun is over a Flat Earth Monopole model.

Actually it doesn't. Again, Irony, lost on you. If it's even accurate, which no one has verified yet, it shows where the sun is on a particular projection of a Globe earth that was co-opted by early FE proponents. Globe centric map = Flat Earth Model = Irony. It's like the dead bird sketch. Craziness you FEr's run around with the Globe AE map and holding it up as a "model".

Your further queries about exact positioning has more to do with a fallacious assumption that we can see infinitely and forever into the distance without any physical modification of sight, practically relying on your own imagination for how the world should be without any demonstration of that matter.

What? Are you making a point about something or just stringing double-nickel words together?

Edit: I can't believe we're even having a conversation about Jeran's version of timeanddate.com. I want to know where Plat thinks his sun is.

Quote from: Tom Bishop on August 15, 2019, 07:32:22 PM

There is no elevation in that app. You are making things up, as usual.

No, I am assuming the standard 5000 km altitude and can use the distance to determine elevation.

And that fits with the Wiki in Tom's TFES.org:

Sun
  The sun is a revolving sphere. It has a diameter of 32 miles and is located approximately 3000 miles above the surface of the earth.

And it also has this:

Distance to the Sun
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
  “ Eratosthenes' model depends on the assumption that the earth is a globe and that the sun is far away and therefore produces parallel rays of light all over the earth. If the sun is nearby, then shadows will change length even for a flat earth. A flat earth model is sketched below. The vertical stick casts shadows that grow longer as the stick moves to the left, away from the closest point to the sun. (The sun is at height h above the earth. ”

  “ A little trigonometry shows that ”
                 
  “ Using the values 50 degrees and 60 degrees as measured on the trip, with b=1000 miles, we find that h is approximately 2000 miles. This relatively close sun would have been quite plausible to the ancients.

Continuing the calculation, we find that a is approximately 2400 miles and the two distances R1 and R2 are approximately 3000 and 3900 miles, respectively. ”

There is no other way to get a distance for the sun. Just looking at it from a single point on earth will not tell you its distance, you must look at it from several points and account for the curvature or non-curvature of the distance between those points.

NoW, the calculation of the sun's height above assumes light travels in straight lines but in this post Tom claims it is "a fallacious assumption that we can see infinitely and forever into the distance without any physical modification of sight".

Your further queries about exact positioning has more to do with a fallacious assumption that we can see infinitely and forever into the distance without any physical modification of sight, practically relying on your own imagination for how the world should be without any demonstration of that matter.

The assumptions in calculating the direction of the sun on that model are exactly the same as in the calculation of the sun's height in that Wiki entry.

There is no elevation in that app. You are making things up, as usual.

The app accurately shows where the sun is over a Flat Earth Monopole model.

Your further queries about exact positioning has more to do with a fallacious assumption that we can see infinitely and forever into the distance without any physical modification of sight, practically relying on your own imagination for how the world should be without any demonstration of that matter.

Might I remind you that the topic is "When will RE Community Accept Defeat?"
So you and Plat Terra should be giving reasons why the "RE Community" might "Accept Defeat".

But neither you nor Plat Terra have given any reasons why we might doubt that the true shape of the earth is almost exactly spherical.

Plat Terra has simply given numerous things that he fails to understand how the Globe "works".

You, on the other hand, simply side-step every question asked and ask us to explain.

So neither of you have given the slightest reason why the "RE Community" might "Accept Defeat".
I fail to see you point in even posting in this thread.
At least Plat Terra has attempted to follow his OP but your posts have been nothing but continual evasion.

There is no elevation in that app. You are making things up, as usual.

The app accurately shows where the sun is over a Flat Earth Monopole model.

Your further queries about exact positioning has more to do with a fallacious assumption that we can see infinitely and forever into the distance without any physical modification of sight, practically relying on your own imagination for how the world should be without any demonstration of that matter.

"accurately"
you keep using that word.

insert princess bride meme.

A superior mirage can happen with any surface on this Plane Earth. It can happen with water or land. The surface will rise up and mask anything in the distance. If a building or boat is off in the distance, it will be masked and didn’t go over an imaginary curve. It was either blocked by the mirage or sailed into it and blended in. Boats’ going over a curve is just an illusion and a silly argument.

A superior mirage can happen with any surface on this Plane Earth. It can happen with water or land. The surface will rise up and mask anything in the distance. If a building or boat is off in the distance, it will be masked and didn’t go over an imaginary curve. It was either blocked by the mirage or sailed into it and blended in. Boats’ going over a curve is just an illusion and a silly argument.

No. Light refraction doesnt happen in random ways. First learn how refraction works and then make your theory.

A superior mirage can happen with any surface on this Plane Earth. It can happen with water or land. The surface will rise up and mask anything in the distance. If a building or boat is off in the distance, it will be masked and didn’t go over an imaginary curve. It was either blocked by the mirage or sailed into it and blended in. Boats’ going over a curve is just an illusion and a silly argument.

Why should I believe that this boat sailing over the horizon is being blocked by a mirage?

A superior mirage can happen with any surface on this Plane Earth. It can happen with water or land. The surface will rise up and mask anything in the distance. If a building or boat is off in the distance, it will be masked and didn’t go over an imaginary curve. It was either blocked by the mirage or sailed into it and blended in. Boats’ going over a curve is just an illusion and a silly argument.

You're not entirely mistaken, plat tera. A superior mirage can happen on most planes on plane ol Earth.

However, as you will see from your own excellent examples of superior mirages, (which typically occurs over water) the water line stays crisp, while the cityscape as in your example, is all shimmering and distorted.

If the water were the mirage, blocking view of the city behind, the cityscape behind would be in sharp focus and the water shimmering. Unfortunately for your flat earth proof, the opposite is true.

Say it to yourself as you go to sleep, tonight, plat tera, "Mirages shimmer".   

Quote from: Plat Terra on August 16, 2019, 08:31:18 AM

A superior mirage can happen with any surface on this Plane Earth. It can happen with water or land. The surface will rise up and mask anything in the distance. If a building or boat is off in the distance, it will be masked and didn’t go over an imaginary curve. It was either blocked by the mirage or sailed into it and blended in. Boats’ going over a curve is just an illusion and a silly argument.

Why should I believe that this boat sailing over the horizon is being blocked by a mirage?

Would you like to take another close look and tell us? Or do we need to point out a couple things?

Thanks for posting.