It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship

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markjo

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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #1500 on: June 27, 2015, 08:10:34 AM »
Markjo: LOL!!!

I googled a few places & took an average;
I'm sorry, I must have misunderstood you when you said that you were providing experimental data.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Misero

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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #1501 on: June 27, 2015, 08:37:15 AM »
Misero: *Sigh* That's odd, cos I just tried dropping a medicine ball & it didn't bounce at all...
Point Proven. Did it continue going in the same direction? No. Therefore the velocity is not the same.
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Slemon

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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #1502 on: June 27, 2015, 09:20:50 AM »
Into acceleration & distance travelled.
So, it changes the acceleration of the object, the distance the object travels, but doesn't affect the object's speed?
Would you care to share how?

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If you disagree then prove it.
Did you miss the youtube video several pages ago that did just that?
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Papa Legba

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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #1503 on: June 27, 2015, 11:41:32 AM »
LOL!!!

Lots of WORDS, but zero EVIDENCE.

As usual...

Except for a youtube, with no explanation of what it even showed.

Great work, markjo!

Misero: you said 'Bounce a ball & see'.

I dropped a ball.

It did not bounce at all.

Now you claim THAT also proves your point!

You are insane.

& you do not have any 'point'.

Bijane: I asked YOU to prove what I claim wrong if you disagreed.

With easily-verifiable evidence & simple experiments, please.

If you cannot, then go away.

But don't ask me to do your job for you, lazy-bones!

LOL!!!

Really; what have you all got against the scientific method?

Just show me some evidence & experiments for what you claim.

Like I do...

Or do you not have any?

Just LOL!!!
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Papa Legba

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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #1504 on: June 27, 2015, 11:43:40 AM »
Oh, & markjo; so what is the exhaust velocity of a gunpowder-fuelled rocket?

I asked you to provide your own figure, so get cracking!

Bet it's a lot more than 150 mph though...

LOL!!!
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Misero

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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #1505 on: June 27, 2015, 11:49:24 AM »
A ball not bouncing is evidence that your velocity is kept?
Do you need to be taught what velocity is? Velocity is speed in a direction. Did the ball keep its speed in the direction of the ground? Did it pass through the ground? No. Did the energy stay the same? Did it make a sound, perhaps move some dust on the ground? Push some air? Yes.
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Papa Legba

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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #1506 on: June 27, 2015, 12:05:35 PM »
Misero: LOL!!!

Are you blind, mad or trolling?

My point is that the velocity is NOT kept in real-world conditions!

Ever seen a Newton's Cradle, troll?

& that, if rockets work by the most basic application of Newton's 3rd, then hurling a mass at 10,000 mph in one direction cannot possibly, under any circumstances, EQUAL a velocity of OVER 10,000 mph in the OPPOSITE direction.

What is WRONG with you?

For someone whose tag reads 'evidence, evidence, evidence', you are quite extraordinarily averse to actually providing any...

But trolls are like that.

LOL!!!
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Slemon

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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #1507 on: June 27, 2015, 12:07:07 PM »
& that, if rockets work by the most basic application of Newton's 3rd, then hurling a mass at 10,000 mph in one direction cannot possibly, under any circumstances, EQUAL a velocity of OVER 10,000 mph in the OPPOSITE direction.
Why would a law that applies to forces give a result strictly about speed?
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Misero

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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #1508 on: June 27, 2015, 12:10:30 PM »
Papa: Was I talking to you? I was talking to sceptimatic in that first post about velocity.
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Papa Legba

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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #1509 on: June 27, 2015, 12:20:07 PM »
Okay; you've all clearly gone mental.

Again.

It's a weekend thing with you, ain't it?

I'll leave the neutral reader to try & work out what the hell you are trying to say & who you're trying to say it to.

& come back when you've all sobered up.

Maybe you'll even have some evidence & experiments to support your claims by then?

Though somehow I doubt it!

Cos you lot just HATE real science, don't you?
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Papa Legba

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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #1510 on: June 27, 2015, 12:21:36 PM »
P.s: LOL!!!
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Misero

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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #1511 on: June 27, 2015, 12:29:58 PM »
I have showed, repeatedly & with simple experimental evidence, that NASA's rocketry model violates Newton's 3rd Law in every way possible.
Does Newton's Third Law apply to forces or velocities?
Action and equal reaction applies to everything.
I'm the drunk one, apparently.
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markjo

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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #1512 on: June 27, 2015, 01:53:00 PM »
Oh, & markjo; so what is the exhaust velocity of a gunpowder-fuelled rocket?
I don't know and I don't really care but I doubt that it's 1300 mph.  I just wanted to know how you experimentally determined that value is all.

Except for a youtube, with no explanation of what it even showed.
The video showed several demonstrations of elastic collisions of objects with different masses, including a heavy mass striking a lighter mass.

Great work, markjo!
thanks, but it really wasn't that difficult.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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sokarul

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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #1513 on: June 27, 2015, 04:24:19 PM »
Misero: LOL!!!

Are you blind, mad or trolling?

My point is that the velocity is NOT kept in real-world conditions!

Ever seen a Newton's Cradle, troll?

& that, if rockets work by the most basic application of Newton's 3rd, then hurling a mass at 10,000 mph in one direction cannot possibly, under any circumstances, EQUAL a velocity of OVER 10,000 mph in the OPPOSITE direction.

What is WRONG with you?

For someone whose tag reads 'evidence, evidence, evidence', you are quite extraordinarily averse to actually providing any...

But trolls are like that.

LOL!!!
The exhaust velocity is not related to the rocket velocity like you think it is. The exhaust mass has a velocity so you get s force. This force accelerates the rocket due to Newton's 3rd law. If you accelerate for long enough time you can go faster than the exhaust gas. This is a simple concept. This is also why tickets have nozzles. The faster the exhaust the greater the acceleration for a given mass.

Understand?
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Papa Legba

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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #1514 on: June 27, 2015, 10:12:25 PM »
Sokarul: you wrote 'this is also why tickets have nozzles'; you might want to go back & edit that.

Plus, if the exhaust velocity is not related to the ticket -sorry, rocket velocity, then why do rocket designers spend so much time & effort trying to increase it?

& no, a rocket can NEVER accelerate past the velocity of its own exhaust.

Newton's 3rd Law: 'Every action creates an equal & opposite reaction', remember?

Further; claiming that it can do so is NOT 'a simple concept'; it is a nonsensical & unscientific concept.

A rocket - like any other type of engine - can only accelerate UP TO its maximum velocity (which, in the case of a rocket, is set by the maximum velocity of its exhaust); thereafter it can accelerate NO MORE.

THAT, Sokarul, is a 'simple concept'. It is also a FACT.

So; yes, I do 'understand', Mr. Apprentice Brainwasher. It is you that does not.

Markjo: LOL!!!

So google is broken for you?

Neutral readers can still google 'gunpowder rocket exhaust velocity' though.

Misero & everyone else: please provide some of the 'Evidence, Evidence, Evidence' which you are so enamoured with to support your model.

Plus simple experiments we can do ourselves.


I have done so, repeatedly; yet you cannot.

Could that be because you do not have any?

Btw; a youtube does not count, markjo.

LOL!!!
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mikeman7918

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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #1515 on: June 27, 2015, 10:55:10 PM »
When I Google "Newton's 3rd law" the first thing that comes up is this:

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Formally stated, Newton's third law is: For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. The statement means that in every interaction, there is a pair of forces acting on the two interacting objects. The size of the forces on the first object equals the size of the force on the second object.

The FORCES are equal and opposite, not the velocities.  I have mentioned this many times, who do you refuse to understand it Pappa Legba?
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Papa Legba

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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #1516 on: June 27, 2015, 11:46:32 PM »
The mass of the exhaust travelling at 10,000 mph creates a FORCE; when that FORCE ACTS upon another mass (i.e. the atmosphere in the case of a rocket), the OPPOSITE REACTION will never EQUAL more than 10,000 mph.

Acceleration & distance travelled may change, depending on the relative sizes of the masses; but NOT velocity.

Observe a Newton's Cradle in action, please.

Honestly, Mikeman; if you can not provide simple experiments & easily-verifiable evidence to support your case that a rocket CAN exceed the maximum velocity of its exhaust, then butt out.

LOL!!!

P.s. I got yet another excellent experiment coming up soon, using a firework rocket.

Funny how I got so many experiments to support my case, whilst you cultists have NONE AT ALL, isn't it?

LMAO!!!
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mikeman7918

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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #1517 on: June 28, 2015, 12:03:55 AM »
The mass of the exhaust travelling at 10,000 mph creates a FORCE; when that FORCE ACTS upon another mass (i.e. the atmosphere in the case of a rocket), the OPPOSITE REACTION will never EQUAL more than 10,000 mph.

Acceleration & distance travelled may change, depending on the relative sizes of the masses; but NOT velocity.

Observe a Newton's Cradle in action, please.

Honestly, Mikeman; if you can not provide simple experiments & easily-verifiable evidence to support your case that a rocket CAN exceed the maximum velocity of its exhaust, then butt out.

LOL!!!

P.s. I got yet another excellent experiment coming up soon, using a firework rocket.

Funny how I got so many experiments to support my case, whilst you cultists have NONE AT ALL, isn't it?

LMAO!!!

Stand on a skateboard, throw a medicine ball, and note how you move backwards.  To the same think again but instead with a beach ball and note how you do not move back.

Mass does not effect aerodynamics, so if air were responsible then the beach ball should propel the skateboard just as fast as the medicine ball.

This is proof that ejecting mass is what's causing the acceleration, and since the medicine ball is not coming back and hitting you like you think rocket exaust does that clearly proves that such things are not necessary to create propulsion.

Just think of the gas exiting a rocket as a bunch of little tiny molecule sized medicine balls, why wouldn't this work?

Imagine a rocket that has 10 tons of fuel while the rest of the rocket only weighs one ton.  If all that fuel is ejected at 1,000 meters per second, how is it possible that the rocket would not be going 100,000 meters per second?  It takes 10 times as much force to accelerate the fuel as it does to accelerate the rocket, and since the forces are equal and opposite the rocket experiences the same force as the fuel but the rocket is 1/100th the mass so it accelerates 100 times as fast with the same force.  It's pretty simple.
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sceptimatic

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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #1518 on: June 28, 2015, 12:25:38 AM »
Stand on a skateboard, throw a medicine ball, and note how you move backwards.  To the same think again but instead with a beach ball and note how you do not move back.

Mass does not effect aerodynamics, so if air were responsible then the beach ball should propel the skateboard just as fast as the medicine ball.
The mass and density against atmospheric resistance is what causes a person to move back or not.
The medicine ball being much more dense than a beach ball will displace atmosphere much quicker and easier than a beach ball would.
You're still living by the con that the medicine ball being heavy, is pushing you back as you push it away and not attributing it to anything other than simply being you against that medicine ball.

You've been told time and time again why it's atmospheric pressure and you discard it because you refuse to accept the simple truth as it would destroy your space fantasies.

The sooner you understand how atmospheric pressure works on dense and less dense objects, the sooner you will start to see reality, unless you're paid to turn a blind eye, which  is probably more fitting seeing as you're playing a 17 year old student.

This is proof that ejecting mass is what's causing the acceleration, and since the medicine ball is not coming back and hitting you like you think rocket exaust does that clearly proves that such things are not necessary to create propulsion.
Ejecting mass is what causes acceleration, except that you're telling it in a different way. You're parroting a lie by making out that the rocket kicks itself up its own arse to get into space. You've been told many times what the end result of this would be and yet you pretend you can't see the problem. You can see the problem just fine. The real problem is in you playing your student games. Mr know it all kid at 17.  ;D


Just think of the gas exiting a rocket as a bunch of little tiny molecule sized medicine balls, why wouldn't this work?


It would work. That's how rockets work, if you can understand that those (expanded) molecules are pushing through other ( less expanded) molecules in the atmosphere and a springboard reaction is created to that action for as long as it happens, which allows the rocket to make vertical progress.


What doesn't happen is molecules expanding in a small chamber inside the rocket, kicking it's insides into space. It's laughable and should be seen as that by people who profess to be intelligent.

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Papa Legba

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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #1519 on: June 28, 2015, 03:06:31 AM »
Mikeman: So; the old 'man on a skateboard' FALSE ANALOGY is all you can come up with for 'evidence'?

You do realise that both sceptimatic & I have debunked this DELIBERATELY FALSE & MISLEADING ANALOGY at least twice already on this thread?

& in any case, even if correct it would NOT prove that a rocket can exceed the maximum velocity of its exhaust.

Please LEARN TO READ.

Now; I asked you for simple experiments & easily-verified evidence that a rocket can exceed the maximum velocity of its exhaust.

Which you did not provide.

I suggest this is because you cannot.

Because there are none.

Because it is impossible.

But enough of that; I think it's pretty obvious I've won this round too: the statement 'a rocket cannot exceed the maximum velocity of its exhaust' is proven.

So; time to move on.

Now; can you all please decide what the exhaust of a rocket is actually doing?

Does it effect any mass outside the rocket?

If so, by how much?

Is all the thrust created in the combustion chamber/nozzle?

If not, how much thrust does the exhaust contribute when it acts against an outside mass?

Or does the exhaust in fact negate thrust?

None of you seem to have a clear opinion on any of the above questions, yet if we are to move on we will need them clarified.

So: answers please, space-cultists!


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Rayzor

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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #1520 on: June 28, 2015, 04:50:32 AM »
So: answers please, space-cultists!

Papa Legba,  the energizer bunny of trolls.    You've been wrong on every point so far.   Do you understand the conservation of momentum yet?



Stop gilding the pickle, you demisexual aromantic homoflexible snowflake.

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Slemon

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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #1521 on: June 28, 2015, 04:55:24 AM »
The mass of the exhaust travelling at 10,000 mph creates a FORCE; when that FORCE ACTS upon another mass (i.e. the atmosphere in the case of a rocket), the OPPOSITE REACTION will never EQUAL more than 10,000 mph.
Why?

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Acceleration & distance travelled may change, depending on the relative sizes of the masses; but NOT velocity.
How exactly would velocity stay fixed if both of those change?

Btw; a youtube does not count, markjo.
Why? It's exactly what you're looking for.
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Conker

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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #1522 on: June 28, 2015, 06:42:01 AM »
Mikeman: So; the old 'man on a skateboard' FALSE ANALOGY is all you can come up with for 'evidence'?

You do realise that both sceptimatic & I have debunked this DELIBERATELY FALSE & MISLEADING ANALOGY at least twice already on this thread?

No, we don't, since you haven't.

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& in any case, even if correct it would NOT prove that a rocket can exceed the maximum velocity of its exhaust.

Ah, Galilean relativity. The flat-earther's bane when going Newtonian motion. Picture a cannon. Now switch the non-inertial frame of reference from the cannon to the cannonball. The cannonball expells a exhaust consisting of a cannon. The cannon recoils at speed mcannon divided by p (momentum). The cannonball is travelling, then, at speed (mcannonball divided by p). Since p is the same for both of them, which one will go faster, the one with the higher or the lower mass? Answer: The one with the lower mass. QED: A rocket (or any momentum propelled device) a can exceed the velocity of the body b (exhaust, using rocket terms) that is being propelled on any exchange that conserves momentum.

A video for sceptis:  " class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">

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Please LEARN TO READ.

I should read more, but my work isn't being too lenient on me latelly. Nevertheless, I can still learn many things via education. You probably didn't mean that, though, but likelly something like "Understand what I say like I want you to understand it and accept it without any question!!".

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Now; I asked you for simple experiments & easily-verified evidence that a rocket can exceed the maximum velocity of its exhaust.
Which you did not provide.
I suggest this is because you cannot.
Because there are none.
Because it is impossible.

I provided you one.

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But enough of that; I think it's pretty obvious I've won this round too: the statement 'a rocket cannot exceed the maximum velocity of its exhaust' is proven.

You haven't proven shit. Argument from ignorance, since there is no evidence, it can't be true!. Prove your own propositions, instead of trying to disprove others, believing that then your proposition becomes magically true.

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Now; can you all please decide what the exhaust of a rocket is actually doing?
Does it effect any mass outside the rocket?
If so, by how much?
It depends. The main working principle behind rocketry is momentum, but when you are on non-momentum conserving enviroments (like the atmosphere, which slows down exhaust and rocket by differing amounts) then you have to take those into account as well. Set up a complete enviroment and we may be able to explain the principles. We are no aerospace engineers, and we don't have the resources or knowdlege to set up a full body simulation, bear that in mind.

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Is all the thrust created in the combustion chamber/nozzle?
Thrust isn't created. Thrust is a force. You are taking the wrong POV if you are considering forces instead of momentum. Of course, you could, but then analysis becomes tedious and pointlessly complicated, since you have to take into account turbulent flow and forces inside the chamber. I suggest you take the simple approach, and use momentum POV, else, I'm going to ask you to do the FEA calculations yourself. I don't have the time to waste.

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If not, how much thrust does the exhaust contribute when it acts against an outside mass?
Momentum exchange between the exhaust against an outside mass? I should not affect the rocket in any way. If the mass is too close, though, the flow of the exhaust will be disturbed. I don't have enough information to know exactly how will it be affected. Do the FEA yourself.

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Or does the exhaust in fact negate thrust?
What does that mean? I sincerelly have no idea what are you talking about now.

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None of you seem to have a clear opinion on any of the above questions, yet if we are to move on we will need them clarified.

So: answers please, space-cultists!

Set up simple enviroments and we will be able to give an answer. If not, why don't you try making the analysis yourself? You claim to know what you are talking about.
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Papa Legba

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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #1523 on: June 28, 2015, 07:38:50 AM »
LOL!!!

Sooo many big words, but not a single shred of evidence amongst them.

Not a single simple experiment to prove your point.

Just pompous, supercilious pseudo-science.

'non-inertial frame of reference...'

LMAO!!!

The exhaust is NOT 'body B', Conker, you sneaky old con-man - it is part of 'body A', i.e. the rocket itself.

Did you REALLY  think you'd sneak THAT one past me?!?

ROFLMAO!!!

The rest of your post is the usual blend of lies, bluffing & blah that you lot always come out with.

Like 'conservation of momentum'; until we establish exactly how Newton's 3rd applies to NASA's rocketry model then all talk of momentum is moot.

& you know this, too; so knock it off, ok, you crook.

You have NOT proved that a rocket can accelerate past the maximum velocity of its exhaust, because it CAN'T.

Because of Newton's 3rd Law.

Oh - you were all mad keen on Newton's 3rd a few pages back, weren't you?

But now you know it DOES NOT support your sci-fi gibberish you're all spamming 'conservation of momentum'...

Pathetic!

I have given evidence that the performance of firework rockets IN NO WAY RESEMBLES that of NASA's silly 'space-rockets'.

Whereas you have spammed out an already debunked FALSE ANALOGY & a lot of smokescreen-like verbiage about bloody cannons, POV's, Galileo, simple environments, etc, all of which amounted to exactly NOTHING.

What a farce...

Oh, & I note that you, too, avoided all mention of Free Expansion of gas in a vacuum...

I wonder why?

But keep going, all of you; because the more that you drag this simple subject into la-la land, the more convinced neutral readers will be that you have NO idea what you are talking about, & are simply making shit up as you go along in order to hide the truth.

& that is LOL!!!

P.s. Rayzor/Evil Edna: obvious LOL-Troll Is obvious!!!
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Slemon

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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #1524 on: June 28, 2015, 08:39:29 AM »
Ok, simple question: how does acceleration change (as you've claimed) without velocity changing?
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Conker

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Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #1525 on: June 28, 2015, 09:34:54 AM »
LOL!!!

Sooo many big words, but not a single shred of evidence amongst them.
Not a single simple experiment to prove your point.
Just pompous, supercilious pseudo-science.
" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">

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'non-inertial frame of reference...'
LMAO!!!
Since the rocket is accelerating, the frame of reference isnt inertial. You knew that, right? Newton's first only applies to inertial frames.

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The exhaust is NOT 'body B', Conker, you sneaky old con-man - it is part of 'body A', i.e. the rocket itself.
Did you REALLY  think you'd sneak THAT one past me?!?
ROFLMAO!!!
It actually is. The whole principle behind rocketry is body A splitting in two bodies, body B, and body C. We call the exhaust body Bn (since the exhaust is a multitude of particles, which act as different bodies, but we can simplify considering them as a group of particles, just as any body), and the remaining rocket body C. The amount of momentum in bodies C and B is conserved, since they both are an explosion of body A. Since bodies Bn are (in total) much less massive than body C, body C will gain speed. Your question also asked how could a rocket go faster than it's exhaust. Simple: it doesn't. Move the frame of reference to the point of ignition, and keep it inertial on the original trajectory and speed of the vehicle. If there was no thrust, then, the exhaust and the rocket would be at the same speed 0, even if it was moving with respect to, for example, the ground (we assume the rocket was initially inertial). Since we do have thrust, the exhaust and the rocket will gain speed, with the exhaust going faster than the rocket (with respect to this frame of reference). Derivate this momentum exhange over time? You get Tsiolkovsky's rocket equation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsiolkovsky_rocket_equation#Derivation. If you find a flaw of the derivation of such an equation (which comes directly from Newton's second), I suggest you write a paper and contact NASA and the Nobel prize administration, since you would have all in your favor to be the world's next Nobel in Physics.

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The rest of your post is the usual blend of lies, bluffing & blah that you lot always come out with.

Like 'conservation of momentum'; until we establish exactly how Newton's 3rd applies to NASA's rocketry model then all talk of momentum is moot.
Why do you put conservation of momentum in quotes? Do you disbelieve conservation of momentum? Anyway, read the wikipedia page (I know, I know, but you have to accept the basics to build towards the more complex things, of course) I provided you, and tell me what you disbelieve about it.

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& you know this, too; so knock it off, ok, you crook.
I beg to differ, your honor.

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You have NOT proved that a rocket can accelerate past the maximum velocity of its exhaust, because it CAN'T.
Because of Newton's 3rd Law.
Newton's third only speaks of forces, not of speeds. Again, I agree that it is not possible for something to go faster than it's exhaust. You are using speeds wrong in this case, though. There is no maximum velocity (we aren't no where near relativistic territory here, so we will use Newtonian physics. In Newtonian physics, there is no maximum velocity at all. Light was assumed to be infinitelly fast by many on his era, and I think, im not sure, that Newton did as well.) for the exhaust to go at. When we talk about exhaust maximum velocity, we are talking about a frame of reference stuck to the rocket. If we consider the rocket to be at rest, then how fast can the exhaust go WITH RESPECT TO THE NOZZLE? That is an important piece of data, since it allows us to know the maximum amount of kinetic energy per unit of propellant the engine can provide, and because of this it is included in Tsiolkovsky's. However, it also limits the usefulness of the equation, since forces such as gravitation can and will affect the speed of the exhaust. That's why actually it is usually used in the specific impulse form.

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Oh - you were all mad keen on Newton's 3rd a few pages back, weren't you?
But now you know it DOES NOT support your sci-fi gibberish you're all spamming 'conservation of momentum'...
Pathetic!
Conservation of momentum is a consequence of the third law, so, yeah, I'm keen of supporting Newton's third, as long as we are talking Classical physics. If you want to take Einstein's relativity into account, that's fine, but I'm not a physicist and I refuse to make such calculus, I work enough already.

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I have given evidence that the performance of firework rockets IN NO WAY RESEMBLES that of NASA's silly 'space-rockets'.
Such as?

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Whereas you have spammed out an already debunked FALSE ANALOGY & a lot of smokescreen-like verbiage about bloody cannons, POV's, Galileo, simple environments, etc, all of which amounted to exactly NOTHING.
Actually, POV (more accuratelly frames of reference) are the basis itself of Newtonian physics. When Im on a car, as long as the speed is constant, I can bounce a ball, and know that it will bounce back at my hand. If the car turns (suffers an acceleration), then the ball will not. Inertialty of frames of reference is one of the basis of Newtonian physics, yet you don't seem to understand them.

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What a farce...
Oh, & I note that you, too, avoided all mention of Free Expansion of gas in a vacuum...
I wonder why?
Because rockets aren't jet engines, and atmospheric pressure only affects the effective velocity of the exhaust. Since I'm assuming we already know that speed, then the particular complex flow of propellant in a vacuum isnt relevant. If you want, then ok, do the FEA yourself.

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But keep going, all of you; because the more that you drag this simple subject into la-la land, the more convinced neutral readers will be that you have NO idea what you are talking about, & are simply making shit up as you go along in order to hide the truth.
& that is LOL!!!
Ok friend.

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P.s. Rayzor/Evil Edna: obvious LOL-Troll Is obvious!!!
Ok friend.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2015, 11:19:55 AM by Conker »
This is not a joke society.
Quote from: OpenedEyes
You shouldn't be allowed to talk on a free discussion forum.

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mikeman7918

  • 5431
  • Round Earther
Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #1526 on: June 28, 2015, 10:13:30 AM »
Here is another experiment proving that rockets work by exploiting Newton't 3rd law which flat earthers seem to think conveniently doesn't apply to rockets.

Take a balloon, fill it up with air, and then let it go so the air rushes out.  If the air really does bounce back and push the rocket, then the air right behind the balloon should apear to be staying still behind the rocket.  If rockets work how we aretold then the air should just be rushing back very fast.  You can test this easily by putting an object like a thread behind the balloon, I chose a thread because it's too thin to noticeably alter the air.  In reality if you do this you find that the air is rushing back very quickly, but none of it is going forward.  This means that molecules are not bouncing back.

Why do you refuse to understand this?  Are you really that desperate for proof of flat Earth theory?
I am having a video war with Jeranism.
See the thread about it here.

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Misero

  • 1261
  • Of course it's flat. It looks that way up close.
Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #1527 on: June 28, 2015, 10:23:41 AM »
Here's the evidence. If you drop a ball, it's velocity changes. Velocity is speed in a direction. It is not going in the same direction. Only the force behind it causes it to go back up, even slightly. Your medicine ball? It is absorbing the force being pushed back at it.
I am the worst moderator ever.

Sometimes I wonder: "Why am  I on this site?"
Then I look at threads about clouds not existing and I go back to posting and lurking. Lurk moar.

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sokarul

  • 19303
  • Extra Racist
Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #1528 on: June 28, 2015, 11:08:13 AM »
Sokarul: you wrote 'this is also why tickets have nozzles'; you might want to go back & edit that.

Plus, if the exhaust velocity is not related to the ticket -sorry, rocket velocity, then why do rocket designers spend so much time & effort trying to increase it?
Welcome to auto correct on a phone.

Now, I clearly said right here "The faster the exhaust the greater the acceleration for a given mass. " that the velocity does matter.  Please pay attention. Like I said, the faster the exhaust the more force that is created.


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& no, a rocket can NEVER accelerate past the velocity of its own exhaust.
Accelerate for long enough time and it's quite easy.

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Newton's 3rd Law: 'Every action creates an equal & opposite reaction', remember?
Yes, liek we said, it a force. Forces accelerate mass.

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Further; claiming that it can do so is NOT 'a simple concept'; it is a nonsensical & unscientific concept.
You could always back up your claim.

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A rocket - like any other type of engine - can only accelerate UP TO its maximum velocity (which, in the case of a rocket, is set by the maximum velocity of its exhaust); thereafter it can accelerate NO MORE.
Rockets don't have a maximum velocity.
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THAT, Sokarul, is a 'simple concept'. It is also a FACT.
Then back up your claims instead of just spouting your opinion.

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So; yes, I do 'understand', Mr. Apprentice Brainwasher. It is you that does not.
My minor is in physics, what's yours?

ANNIHILATOR OF  SHIFTER

It's no slur if it's fact.

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Papa Legba

  • Ranters
  • 9566
  • Welcome to the CIA Troll/Shill Society.
Re: It's 2015 and you aren't even close to owning a Spaceship
« Reply #1529 on: June 28, 2015, 11:09:33 AM »
Conker: your link to 'evidence' leads NOWHERE; all I get is 'about.blank'.

Which sums up both the contents of your posts & your mind neatly...

You liar & con-man.

Misero: when you drop a ball, GRAVITY will assist it to gain velocity; do you really not know this?

You idiotic liar & con-man.

What is WRONG with you all?

Now: provide easily-verifiable evidence & simple experiments we can all perform at home to support your claim that a rocket can exceed the maximum velocity of its exhaust.

Oh, & Mikeman: Where did I say that the air 'bounces back to push the rocket'?

Nowhere, idiot.

& where did I say I am a flat-earther for that matter?

Also nowhere, idiot.

Learn to read.

AND GIVE ME SOME GODDAMN EVIDENCE FOR YOUR FAIRY-TALE BELIEFS!!!

P.s. Sokarul: yes, your physics is 'minor'; I agree!













lol.

I got Trolled & Shilled at the CIA Troll/Shill Society and now I feel EPIC!!!