Iranian Revolution

Quote from: Lorddave on January 15, 2026, 05:00:32 AM

I mean, that probably won't work since its too far away from the USA.

But making them all US citizens would make for an interesting election for the next president.

But you're actually saying that would be a good solution if practical.

Bc Iranians are so retarted they can't govern themselves.

You're also saying that if the Americans had installed a puppet in 1953 then Iran would not have seen a religious upheaval.

I didn't say it would be a good long term solution.  Note the whole empire collapse thing?

America isntalling a puppet government caused both Iraq and Afghanistan to collapse and in Afghanistan, a religious upheaval happened with the Taliban taking over again. 

So, historically, the US meddling in the natural political evolution of other nations doesn't usually end well.

Quote from: Torve on January 15, 2026, 05:07:45 AM

Quote from: Lorddave on January 15, 2026, 05:00:32 AM

I mean, that probably won't work since its too far away from the USA.

But making them all US citizens would make for an interesting election for the next president.

But you're actually saying that would be a good solution if practical.

Bc Iranians are so retarted they can't govern themselves.

You're also saying that if the Americans had installed a puppet in 1953 then Iran would not have seen a religious upheaval.

I didn't say it would be a good long term solution.  Note the whole empire collapse thing?

America isntalling a puppet government caused both Iraq and Afghanistan to collapse and in Afghanistan, a religious upheaval happened with the Taliban taking over again. 

So, historically, the US meddling in the natural political evolution of other nations doesn't usually end well.

The shah of Iran was a dick.

He dicked so much that the islamists were able to grow a bigger dick on the back of national upheaval to shlong him.

I did give you a pass before on this point, but how is that related to something that happened a quarter of a century before? It's not logically acceptable to say thing happened and then another thing happened, because. It's in fact a symptom of a sickness in the western mind that makes people believe that everything negative that has ever happened to a brown person is the fault of some white person - with the corollary that brown people don't have agency, that they can't fudge things up on their own terms.

Quote from: Lorddave on January 15, 2026, 05:13:05 AM

Quote from: Torve on January 15, 2026, 05:07:45 AM

Quote from: Lorddave on January 15, 2026, 05:00:32 AM

I mean, that probably won't work since its too far away from the USA.

But making them all US citizens would make for an interesting election for the next president.

But you're actually saying that would be a good solution if practical.

Bc Iranians are so retarted they can't govern themselves.

You're also saying that if the Americans had installed a puppet in 1953 then Iran would not have seen a religious upheaval.

I didn't say it would be a good long term solution.  Note the whole empire collapse thing?

America isntalling a puppet government caused both Iraq and Afghanistan to collapse and in Afghanistan, a religious upheaval happened with the Taliban taking over again. 

So, historically, the US meddling in the natural political evolution of other nations doesn't usually end well.

The shah of Iran was a dick.

He dicked so much that the islamists were able to grow a bigger dick on the back of national upheaval to shlong him.

I did give you a pass before on this point, but how is that related to something that happened a quarter of a century before? It's not logically acceptable to say thing happened and then another thing happened, because. It's in fact a symptom of a sickness in the western mind that makes people believe that everything negative that has ever happened to a brown person is the fault of some white person - with the corollary that brown people don't have agency, that they can't fudge things up on their own terms.

They can, and do fudge things up on their own.

But ok, give me an example of the US toppling or otherwise aiding to overthrow an elected government that ended well.

It's in fact a symptom of a sickness in the western mind that makes people believe that everything negative that has ever happened to a brown person is the fault of some white person - with the corollary that brown people don't have agency, that they can't fudge things up on their own terms.

Yeah, drives me nuts that one. It's worse in the lefties that take this view (which does span left and right), as it becomes more hypocritical.  Non-westerners are just NPCs - and not just brown people, as Ukrainians are also included.  Apparently they were perfectly happy with being absorbed back into a new Russian empire and it wasn't until some CIA agents whispered in their ears and gave them $50 pocket money did they start "grr, we should be independent!".  Then they were set off like clockwork automatons to Maidan to do the work of their handlers.

They will claim similar for Iran, calling it an imperialist plot.  Somehow forgetting the nasty repression of leftist leader and unions in Iran by a brutal theocracy.

But ok, give me an example of the US toppling or otherwise aiding to overthrow an elected government that ended well.

That's not what we're talking about here is it? So I don't see that it would be worthwhile to pursue this line of thinking.

Quote from: Torve on January 15, 2026, 05:27:06 AM

It's in fact a symptom of a sickness in the western mind that makes people believe that everything negative that has ever happened to a brown person is the fault of some white person - with the corollary that brown people don't have agency, that they can't fudge things up on their own terms.

Yeah, drives me nuts that one. It's worse in the lefties that take this view (which does span left and right), as it becomes more hypocritical.  Non-westerners are just NPCs - and not just brown people, as Ukrainians are also included.  Apparently they were perfectly happy with being absorbed back into a new Russian empire and it wasn't until some CIA agents whispered in their ears and gave them $50 pocket money did they start "grr, we should be independent!".  Then they were set off like clockwork automatons to Maidan to do the work of their handlers.

They will claim similar for Iran, calling it an imperialist plot.  Somehow forgetting the nasty repression of leftist leader and unions in Iran by a brutal theocracy.

In fairness, that does work alot more often then you think.  (not as you described but influencing people in general)
Manipulation is a time honored tradition that works far too well.

Quote from: Lorddave on January 15, 2026, 06:02:15 AM

But ok, give me an example of the US toppling or otherwise aiding to overthrow an elected government that ended well.

That's not what we're talking about here is it? So I don't see that it would be worthwhile to pursue this line of thinking.

Isn't it?
Aren't we talking about if the US should help the revolution they may or may not have helped start?

Isn't it?
Aren't we talking about if the US should help the revolution they may or may not have helped start?

This is not an elected government.

Quote from: Lorddave on January 15, 2026, 06:19:30 AM

Isn't it?
Aren't we talking about if the US should help the revolution they may or may not have helped start?

This is not an elected government.

I mean... they do hold elections.  And yes the supreme leader isn't elected but the people wanted a religious leader.  Had a whole revolution about it.  If thats not choice, then neither was the America Revolution.

Quote from: Torve on January 15, 2026, 06:21:39 AM

Quote from: Lorddave on January 15, 2026, 06:19:30 AM

Isn't it?
Aren't we talking about if the US should help the revolution they may or may not have helped start?

This is not an elected government.

I mean... they do hold elections.  And yes the supreme leader isn't elected but the people wanted a religious leader.  Had a whole revolution about it.  If thats not choice, then neither was the America Revolution.

The USA is an elected government, Iran is not.

Iran holds elections but that doesn't mean they're an elected government. They only elect some Pezza Novante with limited managerial role. The real power positions are unelected. A revolution that happened almost half a century ago is not a substitute.

Quote from: Lorddave on January 15, 2026, 08:05:50 AM

Quote from: Torve on January 15, 2026, 06:21:39 AM

Quote from: Lorddave on January 15, 2026, 06:19:30 AM

Isn't it?
Aren't we talking about if the US should help the revolution they may or may not have helped start?

This is not an elected government.

I mean... they do hold elections.  And yes the supreme leader isn't elected but the people wanted a religious leader.  Had a whole revolution about it.  If thats not choice, then neither was the America Revolution.

The USA is an elected government, Iran is not.

Iran holds elections but that doesn't mean they're an elected government. They only elect some Pezza Novante with limited managerial role. The real power positions are unelected. A revolution that happened almost half a century ago is not a substitute.

It is the choice they made.  They chose to get rid of the US backed dictator and install an anti-US religious figure.  It was their choice.  They had a democratically elected government before 1953 tho.  But.... well.... the US didn't like it.

It is the choice they made.  They chose to get rid of the US backed dictator and install an anti-US religious figure.  It was their choice.  They had a democratically elected government before 1953 tho.  But.... well.... the US didn't like it.

Which part of 'Democracy' don't you understand?

Seriously.

Quote from: Lorddave on January 15, 2026, 08:50:53 AM

It is the choice they made.  They chose to get rid of the US backed dictator and install an anti-US religious figure.  It was their choice.  They had a democratically elected government before 1953 tho.  But.... well.... the US didn't like it.

Which part of 'Democracy' don't you understand?

Seriously.

Which part of "there's more than one government type you can choose" don't YOU understand?

Quote from: Lorddave on January 15, 2026, 05:00:32 AM

I mean, that probably won't work since its too far away from the USA.

But making them all US citizens would make for an interesting election for the next president.

But you're actually saying that would be a good solution if practical.

Its the two birds with one stone analogy again. Iranians and Palestinians get displaced by war, Israel becomes more dominant in the region and doesnt take a single refugee, while Europe and the west become more diverse.

I challenge either Torve or Dave to say it's not killing two birds with one stone.

Quote from: Torve on January 15, 2026, 05:07:45 AM

Quote from: Lorddave on January 15, 2026, 05:00:32 AM

I mean, that probably won't work since its too far away from the USA.

But making them all US citizens would make for an interesting election for the next president.

But you're actually saying that would be a good solution if practical.

Its the two birds with one stone analogy again. Iranians and Palestinians get displaced by war, Israel becomes more dominant in the region and doesnt take a single refugee, while Europe and the west become more diverse.

I challenge either Torve or Dave to say it's not killing two birds with one stone.

Its actually killing three birds.
With the area around Israel destabalized, Israel becomes isolated, with groups of desperate or just insane people constantly attacking without fear of backlash to the government.  Eventually one of them gets a weapon of mass destruction from the fallen Iranian nuclear projects and kills most of Israel with it.

Quote from: disputeone on January 15, 2026, 01:44:54 PM

Quote from: Torve on January 15, 2026, 05:07:45 AM

Quote from: Lorddave on January 15, 2026, 05:00:32 AM

I mean, that probably won't work since its too far away from the USA.

But making them all US citizens would make for an interesting election for the next president.

But you're actually saying that would be a good solution if practical.

Its the two birds with one stone analogy again. Iranians and Palestinians get displaced by war, Israel becomes more dominant in the region and doesnt take a single refugee, while Europe and the west become more diverse.

I challenge either Torve or Dave to say it's not killing two birds with one stone.

Its actually killing three birds.

Ok three birds then.

Quote from: Torve on January 15, 2026, 09:13:10 AM

Quote from: Lorddave on January 15, 2026, 08:50:53 AM

It is the choice they made.  They chose to get rid of the US backed dictator and install an anti-US religious figure.  It was their choice.  They had a democratically elected government before 1953 tho.  But.... well.... the US didn't like it.

Which part of 'Democracy' don't you understand?

Seriously.

Which part of "there's more than one government type you can choose" don't YOU understand?

What?

A "choice" made by force of arms half a century ago is not democracy. Are we clear on that point?

Quote from: Lorddave on January 15, 2026, 11:04:41 AM

Quote from: Torve on January 15, 2026, 09:13:10 AM

Quote from: Lorddave on January 15, 2026, 08:50:53 AM

It is the choice they made.  They chose to get rid of the US backed dictator and install an anti-US religious figure.  It was their choice.  They had a democratically elected government before 1953 tho.  But.... well.... the US didn't like it.

Which part of 'Democracy' don't you understand?

Seriously.

Which part of "there's more than one government type you can choose" don't YOU understand?

What?

A "choice" made by force of arms half a century ago is not democracy. Are we clear on that point?

American Revolution wasn't democracy?  huh.  Guess America isn't an elected government then.

Diversity is not a strength.

/unpopularopinion

When you are "diverse" and hire legally blind people to run air control towers, and planes crash into each other, this is doing you no favors.
When you are "diverse" and hire people from countries with known terrorism, this is doing you no favors.

Close the borders on countries and their drama, tell them in no uncertain terms that they need to put on their big girl panties and deal with their fucked up shit. When a country is happy, healthy, and reasonably well-adjusted, then we can talk about having migrants from there.

I would welcome immigrants (legal or not) from Canada, Norway, Greece, or Sweden.  I would welcome only legal immigrants from shithole countries like Haiti, Ukraine, North Korea, or Mexico. And hellhole countries like  Iran, Yemen, or Saudi Arabia that seem to have a constant problem with terrorism and violence? Not happening until you fix things no matter how many bits of paperwork you sign.

Self-care is the word of the day. You don't need people around you who will hurt you. Israel shouldn't take a single refugee. Neither should US, Canada, Europe, or anyone else. In much the same way as I don't have to babysit screaming kids while their momma basically let them do what they want, and when it's time to actually parent she decides she needs a vacation from them (hint: vacations in my family growing up were with kids). You want a non-dysfunctional country? The citizens need to fight the leadership. When the Ayatollah is removed from power, and they instead have a system that looks normal? We can talk about legal immigration.

American Revolution wasn't democracy?  huh.  Guess America isn't an elected government then.

Interesting choice. American Revolution was effectively a tax revolt, and you are one of the most pro-tax people that I have met.

Wanna change your answer?

Diversity is not a strength.

/unpopularopinion

When you are "diverse" and hire legally blind people to run air control towers, and planes crash into each other, this is doing you no favors.
When you are "diverse" and hire people from countries with known terrorism, this is doing you no favors.

Close the borders on countries and their drama, tell them in no uncertain terms that they need to put on their big girl panties and deal with their fucked up shit. When a country is happy, healthy, and reasonably well-adjusted, then we can talk about having migrants from there.

I would welcome immigrants (legal or not) from Canada, Norway, Greece, or Sweden.  I would welcome only legal immigrants from shithole countries like Haiti, Ukraine, North Korea, or Mexico. And hellhole countries like  Iran, Yemen, or Saudi Arabia that seem to have a constant problem with terrorism and violence? Not happening until you fix things no matter how many bits of paperwork you sign.

Self-care is the word of the day. You don't need people around you who will hurt you. Israel shouldn't take a single refugee. Neither should US, Canada, Europe, or anyone else. In much the same way as I don't have to babysit screaming kids while their momma basically let them do what they want, and when it's time to actually parent she decides she needs a vacation from them (hint: vacations in my family growing up were with kids). You want a non-dysfunctional country? The citizens need to fight the leadership. When the Ayatollah is removed from power, and they instead have a system that looks normal? We can talk about legal immigration.

Quote

American Revolution wasn't democracy?  huh.  Guess America isn't an elected government then.

Interesting choice. American Revolution was effectively a tax revolt, and you are one of the most pro-tax people that I have met.

Wanna change your answer?

So... Americans can't go anywhere because they have alot of know terrorists.  Okay then.

And again, revolution to force a government change.  Without democracy. 

American Revolution wasn't democracy?  huh.  Guess America isn't an elected government then.

Not by itself, no it wasn't.

It was a way that democracy was successfully established, the way the French revolution wasn't.

Quote from: Lorddave on January 15, 2026, 10:19:22 PM

American Revolution wasn't democracy?  huh.  Guess America isn't an elected government then.

Not by itself, no it wasn't.

It was a way that democracy was successfully established, the way the French revolution wasn't.

Is that so?
So it can ONLY be a democracy?  People can never choose another form of government?

Quote from: Torve on January 16, 2026, 01:13:56 AM

Quote from: Lorddave on January 15, 2026, 10:19:22 PM

American Revolution wasn't democracy?  huh.  Guess America isn't an elected government then.

Not by itself, no it wasn't.

It was a way that democracy was successfully established, the way the French revolution wasn't.

Is that so?
So it can ONLY be a democracy?  People can never choose another form of government?

What?? are you talking about?

Quote from: Lorddave on January 16, 2026, 01:34:13 AM

Quote from: Torve on January 16, 2026, 01:13:56 AM

Quote from: Lorddave on January 15, 2026, 10:19:22 PM

American Revolution wasn't democracy?  huh.  Guess America isn't an elected government then.

Not by itself, no it wasn't.

It was a way that democracy was successfully established, the way the French revolution wasn't.

Is that so?
So it can ONLY be a democracy?  People can never choose another form of government?

What?? are you talking about?

You say revolution and use of force isn't a vote to change but can be a way to create change but it seems that change is only valid if the choice is Democracy.  Right?  Or can a country choose say... a military dictator?

Quote from: Torve on January 16, 2026, 01:35:28 AM

Quote from: Lorddave on January 16, 2026, 01:34:13 AM

Quote from: Torve on January 16, 2026, 01:13:56 AM

Quote from: Lorddave on January 15, 2026, 10:19:22 PM

American Revolution wasn't democracy?  huh.  Guess America isn't an elected government then.

Not by itself, no it wasn't.

It was a way that democracy was successfully established, the way the French revolution wasn't.

Is that so?
So it can ONLY be a democracy?  People can never choose another form of government?

What?? are you talking about?

You say revolution and use of force isn't a vote to change but can be a way to create change but it seems that change is only valid if the choice is Democracy.  Right?  Or can a country choose say... a military dictator?

Valid? What are you talking about?

Sometimes the "choice" is a dictator, like Napoleon. So then that's that. Is it a good or a bad "choice" (a coup d'etat, in the case of Napoleon), who can tell?

Quote from: Lorddave on January 16, 2026, 01:45:41 AM

Quote from: Torve on January 16, 2026, 01:35:28 AM

Quote from: Lorddave on January 16, 2026, 01:34:13 AM

Quote from: Torve on January 16, 2026, 01:13:56 AM

Quote from: Lorddave on January 15, 2026, 10:19:22 PM

American Revolution wasn't democracy?  huh.  Guess America isn't an elected government then.

Not by itself, no it wasn't.

It was a way that democracy was successfully established, the way the French revolution wasn't.

Is that so?
So it can ONLY be a democracy?  People can never choose another form of government?

What?? are you talking about?

You say revolution and use of force isn't a vote to change but can be a way to create change but it seems that change is only valid if the choice is Democracy.  Right?  Or can a country choose say... a military dictator?

Valid? What are you talking about?

Sometimes the "choice" is a dictator, like Napoleon. So then that's that. Is it a good or a bad "choice" (a coup d'etat, in the case of Napoleon), who can tell?

You told me the Iranian revolution wasn't valid because it was a choice by force that didn't put in democracy.

You told me the Iranian revolution wasn't valid because it was a choice by force that didn't put in democracy.

Show me where I said that.

Quote from: Lorddave on January 16, 2026, 02:53:57 AM

You told me the Iranian revolution wasn't valid because it was a choice by force that didn't put in democracy.

Show me where I said that.

Right.
You said it wasn't democracy.

In any case, I suppose it doesn't matter if its democracy or not, just that its the people's choice.

Quote from: Torve on January 16, 2026, 02:59:48 AM

Quote from: Lorddave on January 16, 2026, 02:53:57 AM

You told me the Iranian revolution wasn't valid because it was a choice by force that didn't put in democracy.

Show me where I said that.

Right.
You said it wasn't democracy.

That was the argument.

Quote from: Lorddave on January 16, 2026, 03:11:07 AM

Quote from: Torve on January 16, 2026, 02:59:48 AM

Quote from: Lorddave on January 16, 2026, 02:53:57 AM

You told me the Iranian revolution wasn't valid because it was a choice by force that didn't put in democracy.

Show me where I said that.

Right.
You said it wasn't democracy.

That was the argument.

Right right.
Revolution isn't democracy.