My idea: "A black hole is a hole that is black."

But according to current knowledge about Black Holes, they all look like absolutely perfect black spheres. And at the same time, they rapidly rotate around their axis. How could centrifugal forces fail to change the shape of such a cosmic body even by a tiny millimeter?

Quote from: Astronomy on May 18, 2022, 03:08:07 AM

But according to current knowledge about Black Holes, they all look like absolutely perfect black spheres. And at the same time, they rapidly rotate around their axis. How could centrifugal forces fail to change the shape of such a cosmic body even by a tiny millimeter?

If you are looking at a black hole what you are seeing is actually the event horizon at the black holes determined by the Schwarzschild radius. This is simply the distance from the center of mass where the escape velocity exceeds the speed of light. This will be a sphere, since everything inside the event horizon can't send information back to the universe, so as far as gravity knows, it's just a simple point source. There is no structure inside a black hole that can form a non-uniform gravitation field.

There are no centrifugal forces because that radius isn't physical, it's not actually spinning.  Think of a light bulb lighting up a large floor.  If you spin the light bulb, the part of the floor that is lit up in a circle doesn't spin or turn into an oval, because it's not spinning.

You don't really see the actual back hole, the singularity inside. We just see the effects. We can never see inside a black hole, or even it's 'surface' but only observe it's effects.

The other reason a black hole will look spherical is because photons orbiting a black hole will form perfect circles, this is because light doesn't accelerate and therefore can't orbit in anything but a perfect circle. 

The accretion disk on the other hand is made of rocks and dust (and entire planets and stars in some cases!) and that can and will form an oval shape in the direction of the singularities spin.

Quote from: JJA on May 18, 2022, 03:36:43 AM

Quote from: Astronomy on May 18, 2022, 03:08:07 AM

But according to current knowledge about Black Holes, they all look like absolutely perfect black spheres. And at the same time, they rapidly rotate around their axis. How could centrifugal forces fail to change the shape of such a cosmic body even by a tiny millimeter?

If you are looking at a black hole what you are seeing is actually the event horizon at the black holes determined by the Schwarzschild radius. This is simply the distance from the center of mass where the escape velocity exceeds the speed of light. This will be a sphere, since everything inside the event horizon can't send information back to the universe, so as far as gravity knows, it's just a simple point source. There is no structure inside a black hole that can form a non-uniform gravitation field.

There are no centrifugal forces because that radius isn't physical, it's not actually spinning.  Think of a light bulb lighting up a large floor.  If you spin the light bulb, the part of the floor that is lit up in a circle doesn't spin or turn into an oval, because it's not spinning.

You don't really see the actual back hole, the singularity inside. We just see the effects. We can never see inside a black hole, or even it's 'surface' but only observe it's effects.

The other reason a black hole will look spherical is because photons orbiting a black hole will form perfect circles, this is because light doesn't accelerate and therefore can't orbit in anything but a perfect circle. 

The accretion disk on the other hand is made of rocks and dust (and entire planets and stars in some cases!) and that can and will form an oval shape in the direction of the singularities spin.

My findings of Black Holes  are at http://heiwaco.com/moontravelb.htm . It seems only two Black Holes have been found so far by us on Earth, i.e. one in our Milky Way galaxy last week, and another in another galaxy far away two years ago. Plenty asstronomers are awaiting Nobel prizes for it, but Nobel doesn't give prices for such garbage.

There are no centrifugal forces because that radius isn't physical, it's not actually spinning. 

Quote from: JJA on May 18, 2022, 03:36:43 AM

There are no centrifugal forces because that radius isn't physical, it's not actually spinning. 

But due to time dilation, any black hole becomes fully formed only in the infinitely distant future.
Hence, there are centrifugal forces expected while the infinite long star collapse is happening.

What are these centrifugal forces acting on? A black hole has no physical outer edge. Just like the area of light a light bulb produces is not a physical object that can be affected by spin or inertia.

Quote from: JJA on May 18, 2022, 06:27:40 AM

What are these centrifugal forces acting on? A black hole has no physical outer edge. Just like the area of light a light bulb produces is not a physical object that can be affected by spin or inertia.

I sense a scientist. Are you the physicist? I am one. I love the black hole topic. Forces are acting om star material. Black Hole is the collapsing star in slow-motion.

I'm not a scientist but I play one on TV.  Any objects that you can SEE being acted on with forces is not part of the black hole, you are talking about stuff outside the black hole. You can't see the actual black hole, just objects orbiting it or falling into it.  Once an event horizon forms there is no way to get a look inside.

Quote from: JJA on May 18, 2022, 06:54:49 AM

I'm not a scientist but I play one on TV.  Any objects that you can SEE being acted on with forces is not part of the black hole, you are talking about stuff outside the black hole. You can't see the actual black hole, just objects orbiting it or falling into it.  Once an event horizon forms there is no way to get a look inside.

My opinion might be wrong, it is almost definitely wrong; because it is not peer-reviewed.
But you should admit, that Black Holes are still mysterious ones. For example, it is unknown how very large BH came to be.

We do know how large ones came to be, merging with smaller ones.

black holes are not black and are not holes

Quote from: JJA on May 18, 2022, 03:36:43 AM

There are no centrifugal forces because that radius isn't physical, it's not actually spinning. 

But due to time dilation, any black hole becomes fully formed only in the infinitely distant future.
Hence, there are centrifugal forces expected while the infinite long star collapse is happening.

Who or what is this 'WE' stuff?? YOU, yes thats YOU...know zilch about black holes  other than what you have read and have no way of actually knowing first hand about them so cut the 'WE' nonsense as you are certainly not included in the 'WE' knowing so don't fool yourself.
To know something about black holes requires resources far away removed from what 'YOU', yes 'YOU' have at your disposal.
Just remember who YOU are and what you can actually determine, which in all honesty aint very much, but then again one has to be honest to really appreciate that fact and honesty it appears to be in very short supply these days.

YOU

Quote from: Timeisup on May 31, 2022, 07:43:21 AM

, yes thats YOU

Quote from: Timeisup on May 31, 2022, 07:43:21 AM

Who or what is this 'WE' stuff?? YOU, yes thats YOU...know zilch about black holes  other than what you have read and have no way of actually knowing first hand about them so cut the 'WE' nonsense as you are certainly not included in the 'WE' knowing so don't fool yourself.
To know something about black holes requires resources far away removed from what 'YOU', yes 'YOU' have at your disposal.
Just remember who YOU are and what you can actually determine, which in all honesty aint very much, but then again one has to be honest to really appreciate that fact and honesty it appears to be in very short supply these days.

The vast majority of knowledge concerning blackholes is entirely mathematical and requires no resources to know.  All that is needed is study.  Something many of us have no difficulty with.

Timisises is on his way to another black hole of banville.
Population ....

Quote from: Timeisup on May 31, 2022, 07:43:21 AM

YOU

Quote from: Timeisup on May 31, 2022, 07:43:21 AM

, yes thats YOU

You may not have noticed but people around here often make the most grandiose claims about all sorts of things. I, being fairly sceptical, find it hard to believe that people who drop in here to make random comments about this and that are probing the mysteries of black holes using advanced mathematics in their spare time. It’s a problem where simple algebra or 101 mathematics won’t cut it. So what discoveries have you yourself made recently?

Quote from: Calen on May 31, 2022, 07:54:05 AM

The vast majority of knowledge concerning blackholes is entirely mathematical and requires no resources to know.  All that is needed is study.  Something many of us have no difficulty with.

Now that is interesting. While some of the great minds of recent years like Hawkings have indeed probed the mysteries of black holes using mathematics few in reality have the capabilities and advanced knowledge to do this.
You say you have studied black holes, a very easy thing to say on a forum like this, so what has been the nature of your ‘study’ and what have you been able to discover?
Let remember reading an article in a scientific journal is a far cry from actual study.

To know something about black holes requires resources far away removed from what 'YOU', yes 'YOU' have at your disposal.

Quote from: Timeisup on May 31, 2022, 09:57:58 PM

Quote from: Calen on May 31, 2022, 07:54:05 AM

The vast majority of knowledge concerning blackholes is entirely mathematical and requires no resources to know.  All that is needed is study.  Something many of us have no difficulty with.

Now that is interesting. While some of the great minds of recent years like Hawkings have indeed probed the mysteries of black holes using mathematics few in reality have the capabilities and advanced knowledge to do this.
You say you have studied black holes, a very easy thing to say on a forum like this, so what has been the nature of your ‘study’ and what have you been able to discover?
Let remember reading an article in a scientific journal is a far cry from actual study.

Perhaps you could point out in my post where I stated I have studied black holes, or where I claim to have made discoveries concerning them. 

While the equations concerning black holes are indeed difficult, they are not beyond the understandings of someone with a decent grasp of geometry and Relativity, especially non-rotating Schwarzchild black holes.  Kerr blackholes are more complex, having multiple horizons and an ergoshpere that does not coincide with any horizon, but are still within understanding of any reasonably intelligent person willing to invest time and effort in studying the underlying mathematics.

I note that, as often seems to be the case (at least in my limited interaction with you, and in your interactions here with other people), you failed to counter the substance of my argument, resorting to the construction of another strawman for your army.  They may be legion, but they are weak.

I quote again:

Quote from: Timeisup on May 31, 2022, 07:43:21 AM

To know something about black holes requires resources far away removed from what 'YOU', yes 'YOU' have at your disposal.

This is substantially incorrect.

As most of the knowledge available regarding black holes is purely mathematical, no resources far removed from the reach of any intelligent person are required.

Resources far removed from the reach of ordinary folk are required to gather data and evidence of the validity of current theories concerning black holes.  Such resources, however, are unnecessary for the understanding of those theories.  A decent education and effort are sufficient.

For the record, I do not consider "reading an article in a scientific journal" to be actual study.  Taking the time to understand the mathematics behind such a paper, and then applying that understanding to other papers and scientific literature, does.

Care to enlightenment me as to what you consider study to be?

Quote from: Calen on June 01, 2022, 12:56:18 AM

Quote from: Timeisup on May 31, 2022, 09:57:58 PM

Quote from: Calen on May 31, 2022, 07:54:05 AM

The vast majority of knowledge concerning blackholes is entirely mathematical and requires no resources to know.  All that is needed is study.  Something many of us have no difficulty with.

Now that is interesting. While some of the great minds of recent years like Hawkings have indeed probed the mysteries of black holes using mathematics few in reality have the capabilities and advanced knowledge to do this.
You say you have studied black holes, a very easy thing to say on a forum like this, so what has been the nature of your ‘study’ and what have you been able to discover?
Let remember reading an article in a scientific journal is a far cry from actual study.

Perhaps you could point out in my post where I stated I have studied black holes, or where I claim to have made discoveries concerning them. 

While the equations concerning black holes are indeed difficult, they are not beyond the understandings of someone with a decent grasp of geometry and Relativity, especially non-rotating Schwarzchild black holes.  Kerr blackholes are more complex, having multiple horizons and an ergoshpere that does not coincide with any horizon, but are still within understanding of any reasonably intelligent person willing to invest time and effort in studying the underlying mathematics.

I note that, as often seems to be the case (at least in my limited interaction with you, and in your interactions here with other people), you failed to counter the substance of my argument, resorting to the construction of another strawman for your army.  They may be legion, but they are weak.

I quote again:

Quote from: Timeisup on May 31, 2022, 07:43:21 AM

To know something about black holes requires resources far away removed from what 'YOU', yes 'YOU' have at your disposal.

This is substantially incorrect.

As most of the knowledge available regarding black holes is purely mathematical, no resources far removed from the reach of any intelligent person are required.

Resources far removed from the reach of ordinary folk are required to gather data and evidence of the validity of current theories concerning black holes.  Such resources, however, are unnecessary for the understanding of those theories.  A decent education and effort are sufficient.

For the record, I do not consider "reading an article in a scientific journal" to be actual study.  Taking the time to understand the mathematics behind such a paper, and then applying that understanding to other papers and scientific literature, does.

Care to enlightenment me as to what you consider study to be?

You implied.
Regardless of whether you do study black holes or don’t does not change the reality or facts of the matter.
I’m not sure if you are from the USA but as a nation they are way down the international league table of mathematical attainment. That’s a fact . I doubt the overwhelming majority of people in the USA for example would not be able to follow the mathematics used to describe the structure of a black hole or understand the concept of black hole evaporation through Hawking  radiation as developed by the late prof Stephen Hawking.
There is one being able to follow a mathematical concept and quite another in actually developing one.
I think what you say ignores reality. No one on this forum could develop a new mathematical concept or any other concept  for Black holes that could stand up to peer reviewed  scrutiny or be supported by observation. The OP who said he had an idea! was talking utter bollocks. You or any other poster on this forum could of course prove me wrong by writing a paper and having it published in Nature. If it’s so easy and straight forward as you are implying give it a go and see how you get on. What’s stopping you?

To know something about black holes requires resources far away removed from what 'YOU', yes 'YOU' have at your disposal.

Looks like someone only needs the vast resources of just one person. This Astrophysicist explains what we know about black holes to 5 different levels of education with increasing complexity:

Quote from: Stash on June 04, 2022, 10:44:49 PM

Looks like someone only needs the vast resources of just one person. This Astrophysicist explains what we know about black holes to 5 different levels of education with increasing complexity:

Explaining  anything that someone else has discovered is no big deal. It’s called teaching and is the principal most education systems are based on! What point are you trying to prove? Teaching works?
The guy who started this whole thing off said he had, wait for it, A NEW IDEA ABOUT BLACK HOLES.

Quote from: Timeisup on June 05, 2022, 01:17:29 AM

Quote from: Stash on June 04, 2022, 10:44:49 PM

Looks like someone only needs the vast resources of just one person. This Astrophysicist explains what we know about black holes to 5 different levels of education with increasing complexity:

Explaining  anything that someone else has discovered is no big deal. It’s called teaching and is the principal most education systems are based on! What point are you trying to prove? Teaching works?
The guy who started this whole thing off said he had, wait for it, A NEW IDEA ABOUT BLACK HOLES.

Schwarzschild did exactly that - Solved Einstein's field equations with just a pencil and paper and conjured up what we now think of as 'black holes'. His idea was "NEW".

Quote from: Stash on June 05, 2022, 11:05:37 AM

Quote from: Timeisup on June 05, 2022, 01:17:29 AM

Quote from: Stash on June 04, 2022, 10:44:49 PM

Looks like someone only needs the vast resources of just one person. This Astrophysicist explains what we know about black holes to 5 different levels of education with increasing complexity:

Explaining  anything that someone else has discovered is no big deal. It’s called teaching and is the principal most education systems are based on! What point are you trying to prove? Teaching works?
The guy who started this whole thing off said he had, wait for it, A NEW IDEA ABOUT BLACK HOLES.

Schwarzschild did exactly that - Solved Einstein's field equations with just a pencil and paper and conjured up what we now think of as 'black holes'. His idea was "NEW".

Are you trying to say people on this forum are somehow on the intellectual and scientific level of  Schwarzschild?

Their have been volumes written about the particular work you are referring to. Had he not died he may have become a real giant in scientific history rather than just a crater on the moon!
Let’s remember he was a professional astronomer and physicist who did that kind of thing as his day job when he wasn’t dodging bullets on the Russian front!
You do realise that you’re proving my point!

Quote from: Timeisup on June 07, 2022, 12:50:25 AM

Quote from: Stash on June 05, 2022, 11:05:37 AM

Quote from: Timeisup on June 05, 2022, 01:17:29 AM

Quote from: Stash on June 04, 2022, 10:44:49 PM

Looks like someone only needs the vast resources of just one person. This Astrophysicist explains what we know about black holes to 5 different levels of education with increasing complexity:

Explaining  anything that someone else has discovered is no big deal. It’s called teaching and is the principal most education systems are based on! What point are you trying to prove? Teaching works?
The guy who started this whole thing off said he had, wait for it, A NEW IDEA ABOUT BLACK HOLES.

Schwarzschild did exactly that - Solved Einstein's field equations with just a pencil and paper and conjured up what we now think of as 'black holes'. His idea was "NEW".

Are you trying to say people on this forum are somehow on the intellectual and scientific level of  Schwarzschild?

Could be. You don't know and I don't know.

Quote from: Timeisup on June 07, 2022, 12:50:25 AM

Their have been volumes written about the particular work you are referring to. Had he not died he may have become a real giant in scientific history rather than just a crater on the moon!
Let’s remember he was a professional astronomer and physicist who did that kind of thing as his day job when he wasn’t dodging bullets on the Russian front!
You do realise that you’re proving my point!

He came up with the solution all on his own with pencil and paper. A smart guy, no doubt. But using your logic, everyone who received the same education/training he had from "experts" should have solved the equations just like he did. But no, he was the only one. Which means he applied something special that no one else had. Therefore, he was singular in his solution. So it didn't take a village or even an expert to come up with something new. He became an expert after he came up with the something new. And he did it alone.