War

  • 5166 Replies
  • 624157 Views
*

disputeone

  • 27988
  • +107/-87
  • Or should I?
Re: War
« Reply #4530 on: January 21, 2026, 04:29:39 PM »
then why cant you not just attempt to have some humanity and say "the mehtods of the IDF are disproportionate".
Because of the enemy they are fighting and the tactics they use.

Muslims or Europeans?

Here's a Rabbi saying Muslims and Jews need to work together against Europeans.



Quote
European Rabbis Leader Urges Jews and Muslims to Unite Against ‘Old Europeans’ Concerned About Immigration
https://caldronpool.com/european-rabbis-leader-urges-jews-and-muslims-to-unite-against-old-europeans-concerned-about-immigration/
Why would that be inciting terrorism?  Lorddave was merely describing a type of shop we have here in the US, a bomb-gun shop.  A shop that sells bomb-guns.

?

Themightykabool

  • 13097
  • +58/-79
Re: War
« Reply #4531 on: January 21, 2026, 09:04:35 PM »
didn't i post to this?
did i get Censored?!?!?!?!!?





160,000 out of 2,300,000
...
The latest death toll stands at 62,614 Palestinians and 1,139 people killed in Israel since October 7, 2023.
So which is it?
160 000 or 62 614?

then why cant you not just attempt to have some humanity and say "the mehtods of the IDF are disproportionate".
Because of the enemy they are fighting and the tactics they use.

objectively there is an aggressor
And that was Hamas, after Israel was withdrawing.

If you want to try saying it is Israel since it began to exist, then what you are really saying is you want the removal of the state of Israel.

*

JackBlack

  • 26157
  • +51/-79
Re: War
« Reply #4532 on: January 21, 2026, 11:01:03 PM »
then why cant you not just attempt to have some humanity and say "the mehtods of the IDF are disproportionate".
Because of the enemy they are fighting and the tactics they use.
Muslims or Europeans?
Hamas.
A terrorist group happy to use civilians as human shields; including using civilian infrastructure including hospitals and schools for military purposes such as command centres or munition storage or tunnel access; and happy to use people who are apparently civilians in military operations.
As opposed to honest powers that use clearly designated military sites and military personnel, making it much easier to distinguish valid military targets from invalid civilian targets.

?

Themightykabool

  • 13097
  • +58/-79
Re: War
« Reply #4533 on: January 22, 2026, 01:53:04 PM »
When you're backed by, or are the superpower, "collateral damage" is an acceptable term for efficiently killing an entire family.
And when you're a guerrilla living in a combat zone you're labelled by above super poewr a "coward" hiding behind your family.


perspective is perspective.



this isn't war from 100yrs ago where lines and trenches are drawn.

*

JackBlack

  • 26157
  • +51/-79
Re: War
« Reply #4534 on: January 23, 2026, 01:33:37 AM »
When you're backed by, or are the superpower, "collateral damage" is an acceptable term for efficiently killing an entire family.
And when you're a guerrilla living in a combat zone you're labelled by above super poewr a "coward" hiding behind your family.
Yes, because there is nothing saying that they have to be that coward hiding behind their family.
There is nothing requiring Hamas to not have military supplies stored in clearly segregated areas to prevent civilian casualties.
They don't care how many die, likely for one of the very reasons already mentioned, the hopes that any collateral damage just fuels more people to join them.


this isn't war from 100yrs ago where lines and trenches are drawn.
No, it isn't a war where men and thrown into enemy fire again and again and again just to die while officers are protected.
Nor is it a war from even further past where the 2 sides neatly line and proceed to take turns shooting each other.
It is a war where Israel has the right to not have to needlessly endanger their soliders.

*

disputeone

  • 27988
  • +107/-87
  • Or should I?
Re: War
« Reply #4535 on: January 23, 2026, 01:37:17 AM »

.
Why would that be inciting terrorism?  Lorddave was merely describing a type of shop we have here in the US, a bomb-gun shop.  A shop that sells bomb-guns.

?

Themightykabool

  • 13097
  • +58/-79
Re: War
« Reply #4536 on: January 23, 2026, 07:27:14 AM »
When you're backed by, or are the superpower, "collateral damage" is an acceptable term for efficiently killing an entire family.
And when you're a guerrilla living in a combat zone you're labelled by above super poewr a "coward" hiding behind your family.
Yes, because there is nothing saying that they have to be that coward hiding behind their family.
There is nothing requiring Hamas to not have military supplies stored in clearly segregated areas to prevent civilian casualties.
They don't care how many die, likely for one of the very reasons already mentioned, the hopes that any collateral damage just fuels more people to join them.


this isn't war from 100yrs ago where lines and trenches are drawn.
No, it isn't a war where men and thrown into enemy fire again and again and again just to die while officers are protected.
Nor is it a war from even further past where the 2 sides neatly line and proceed to take turns shooting each other.
It is a war where Israel has the right to not have to needlessly endanger their soliders.


imagine if the USA had to bring their families with them to iraq/ afghanistan
and then the taliban bombed the camp
and the usa said they attacked civilians
and the taliban said you hid behind your children like cowards.




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wech_Baghtu_wedding_party_airstrike

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/17/us/politics/pentagon-drone-strike-afghanistan.html (10dead in the WRONGFUL droning of a family suspected of being the afghan-exit-bomber)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafah_paramedic_massacre
« Last Edit: January 23, 2026, 07:29:29 AM by Themightykabool »

*

JackBlack

  • 26157
  • +51/-79
Re: War
« Reply #4537 on: January 23, 2026, 12:12:33 PM »
imagine if the USA had to bring their families with them to iraq/ afghanistan
No.
Why would I imagine such a crazy fantasy?

and then the taliban bombed the camp
and the usa said they attacked civilians
And I would say the USA is wrong, they attacked a military camp, and that if they didn't want the civilians hurt they shouldn't have had them in a military camp.

?

Themightykabool

  • 13097
  • +58/-79
Re: War
« Reply #4538 on: January 23, 2026, 12:50:19 PM »
imgaine
because that's how empathy works



ok
what if it wasn't a military camp
what if it was an apartment complex?

*

JackBlack

  • 26157
  • +51/-79
Re: War
« Reply #4539 on: January 23, 2026, 01:48:33 PM »
because that's how empathy works
Empathy does not require you to invent such convoluted situations.

what if it wasn't a military camp
what if it was an apartment complex?
Why are the military operating out of an apartment complex?

Here is something for you to imagine.
Imagine there is no military base, no easily identified military target.
Imagine the bases of operation of this militant terrorist organisation is a civilian location, and they all live in civilian locations.
Do you want to say that means you are never allowed to target them?

That to protect their military personally it is fine to use civilians as human shields and then condemn anyone who attacks those human shields?

How would you like it if the military of your country decided to house their military in your apartment complex, or those of your loved ones, specifically to use them as human shields?
How would you like it if they decided to disestablish military bases and instead embed them where you and your loved ones work and go to school?

?

Themightykabool

  • 13097
  • +58/-79
Re: War
« Reply #4540 on: January 24, 2026, 08:46:57 AM »
Its not convulted


Thwyre literally living where theyre fighting.

*

JackBlack

  • 26157
  • +51/-79
Re: War
« Reply #4541 on: January 24, 2026, 12:19:14 PM »
Its not convulted


Thwyre literally living where theyre fighting.
It is convoluted.
There was nothing stopping Hamas having separate military operation centres, including ones to house people.

They don't want that, they want human shields so they can try to get public outcry when Israel attacks them.

*

disputeone

  • 27988
  • +107/-87
  • Or should I?
Re: War
« Reply #4542 on: January 24, 2026, 03:48:43 PM »
Why would that be inciting terrorism?  Lorddave was merely describing a type of shop we have here in the US, a bomb-gun shop.  A shop that sells bomb-guns.

?

Themightykabool

  • 13097
  • +58/-79
Re: War
« Reply #4543 on: January 24, 2026, 05:24:51 PM »
Its not convulted


Thwyre literally living where theyre fighting.
It is convoluted.
There was nothing stopping Hamas having separate military operation centres, including ones to house people.

They don't want that, they want human shields so they can try to get public outcry when Israel attacks them.


I wont say its not entirely "convenient" to have human shields
But dont kid yourself that what youre proposing is milotarily logical.



*

JackBlack

  • 26157
  • +51/-79
Re: War
« Reply #4544 on: January 25, 2026, 10:53:38 PM »
I wont say its not entirely "convenient" to have human shields
Then you shouldn't be going off at the people destroying those shields for destroying them.

But dont kid yourself that what youre proposing is milotarily logical.
That depends on what military mindset you want to follow.
Do you want to follow one where civilians are fair game? If so, go bunk with them and set up your base with them. But then don't complain when they get killed.
Or do you want to follow one where civilians are protected and not valid targets? Then you need to segregate your military away from them, even if it means your defeat.

If you want to detach the emotion from it and no longer care about protecting civilians (the kind of mindset that allows not segregating them), then a quite "logical" strategy is to destroy the civilian population that is supporting the military so the military falls. We see all the time in RTS games, where you destroy the villagers or whatever equivalent to stop the enemy being able to get resources to train more military. While not a perfect analogy it does still hold.
Likewise, the logical strategy defied by virtually all modern powers is to kill the medics, and kill the wounded, so they can't recover and come back to fight again.
Likewise, the logical strategy when you have people surrendering is often to kill them so you don't have to support them and don't risk them trying to fight back. The only reason to keep them prisoner is if you want people to surrender rather than fight to their last breath, and in that case, while keeping them alive, you can still do very little.
And if you can take out a target, without harming your own people, then do it, regardless of the collateral.
And if you are worried about the remaining people starting an uprising then destroy them.

Modern warfare has drastically removed itself from that emotionless logic.
It values civilian lives, to avoid taking out unnecessary civilian casualties.
It values even the military being able to survive, so wounded and medics and military hospitals are protected, and POWs are protected and cared for.
But those protections come with responsibilities.
If Hamas is not willing to obey those responsibilities, then every human shield they use is a valid military target while it is being used as a human shield.

?

Unconvinced

  • 4030
  • +48/-44
Re: War
« Reply #4545 on: January 26, 2026, 01:20:01 AM »

If Hamas is not willing to obey those responsibilities, then every human shield they use is a valid military target while it is being used as a human shield.

No they don’t.  No more than hostages become a “valid military target”.

The human shield argument is massively overplayed by Isreal apologists anyway.

You realise that many personal in regular militaries have spouses and children, right?  Some live in military owned accommodation, some in normal civilian accommodation.  Sometimes the military accommodation is on an actual military site, sometimes it isn’t.  None of which would count as using them as human shields. 

An attacking force deliberately targeting their homes (even on a military site) instead of defensive positions or strategic targets would be wrong.

Militias, volunteer forces, reserves, etc typically live in regular civilian homes, alongside civilians.  As do Hamas fighters.

The families are non combatants, their neighbours are non combatants, and they don’t become valid military targets no matter how much you hate Hamas.

*

JackBlack

  • 26157
  • +51/-79
Re: War
« Reply #4546 on: January 26, 2026, 01:39:07 AM »
No they don’t.  No more than hostages become a “valid military target”.
Yes, they do, at least in the sense that the opposing force is not at fault if they die as collateral damage.
They are also quite different to hostages that were taken against their will.

The human shield argument is massively overplayed by Isreal apologists anyway.
Can you show me any satellite photo of Gaza showing the locations of Hamas military positions?

Sometimes the military accommodation is on an actual military site
And especially in that case, if that gets destroyed that's on them, not on the people who destroy it.

An attacking force deliberately targeting their homes (even on a military site) instead of defensive positions or strategic targets would be wrong.
Attacking their homes, if that is the only place you can surely locate them, would not be wrong.
Attacking their homes, if you are quite certain they are there, and that is the only place you can reasonably attack, would still not be wrong.

The families are non combatants
And by going back to their families, they are putting them in danger.

?

Unconvinced

  • 4030
  • +48/-44
Re: War
« Reply #4547 on: January 26, 2026, 10:08:40 AM »
No they don’t.  No more than hostages become a “valid military target”.
Yes, they do, at least in the sense that the opposing force is not at fault if they die as collateral damage.
They are also quite different to hostages that were taken against their will.

The human shield argument is massively overplayed by Isreal apologists anyway.
Can you show me any satellite photo of Gaza showing the locations of Hamas military positions?

Sometimes the military accommodation is on an actual military site
And especially in that case, if that gets destroyed that's on them, not on the people who destroy it.

An attacking force deliberately targeting their homes (even on a military site) instead of defensive positions or strategic targets would be wrong.
Attacking their homes, if that is the only place you can surely locate them, would not be wrong.
Attacking their homes, if you are quite certain they are there, and that is the only place you can reasonably attack, would still not be wrong.

The families are non combatants
And by going back to their families, they are putting them in danger.

I could show you satellite photos of Gaza totally flattened by Isreal if that helps?

So much wrong with your nonsense.

Non combatants are never legitimate targets.  They may be collateral damage, but that is very different.

Collateral damage should be minimised where possible.  This is where principals of distinction and proportionality come into it.

An attacking force could justify some civilian loss of life to take out a sniper nest or part of the command structure (ideally as little as possible).  But flattening an apartment building full of civilians just to kill a couple of grunts with AK47s as they sleep in their beds is really not OK.

This is all on whoever drops the bomb or fires the missile.  They are the ones deciding if it’s worth killing x number of civilians for how much military advantage.  And if they decide that civilian lives are with basically nothing for minimal gains, don’t whinge when people accuse them of war crimes.

The point of the operation should have been to dismantle Hamas as an organisation and secure the release of hostages.  Not to kill every last pissed off Palestinian who ever picked up a rifle, regardless of civilian casualties.

Let’s not forget that Isreal has overwhelming military superiority and total air superiority in all this.  Hamas were basically contained the moment Isreal moved in.  It should have been a security operation.




*

JackBlack

  • 26157
  • +51/-79
Re: War
« Reply #4548 on: January 26, 2026, 12:10:20 PM »
I could show you satellite photos of Gaza totally flattened by Isreal if that helps?
No, I want one with clearly distinguished military bases.

Non combatants are never legitimate targets.  They may be collateral damage, but that is very different.
Which is effectively what I was saying.
That the opposing force can shoot through those human shields.

Collateral damage should be minimised where possible.
Not merely possible, as hypothetically it would always be possible, just surrender and let the enemy destroy you.

It is also about practicality.
And when you are facing an enemy that intentionally embeds themselves into the civilian population, to use them as human shields; then that collateral damage is an inevitability, and quite likely to be quite high.

This is all on whoever drops the bomb or fires the missile.
No, it isn't.
It is also on the ones deciding to put the military objective there.

Let’s not forget that Isreal has overwhelming military superiority and total air superiority in all this.  Hamas were basically contained the moment Isreal moved in.  It should have been a security operation.
And treating it like that would have resulted in far more deaths for the IDF.

?

Unconvinced

  • 4030
  • +48/-44
Re: War
« Reply #4549 on: January 26, 2026, 07:36:34 PM »

No, I want one with clearly distinguished military bases.

Great idea.  Let Palestine have a proper military, with tanks, helicopters, jets, artillery, anti aircraft defence, etc.  instead of a bunch of guys with AK47s and pickup trucks. 

I wonder what Israel would think about that?

?

Themightykabool

  • 13097
  • +58/-79
Re: War
« Reply #4550 on: January 26, 2026, 07:39:50 PM »
I wont say its not entirely "convenient" to have human shields
Then you shouldn't be going off at the people destroying those shields for destroying them.

But dont kid yourself that what youre proposing is milotarily logical.
That depends on what military mindset you want to follow.
Do you want to follow one where civilians are fair game? If so, go bunk with them and set up your base with them. But then don't complain when they get killed.
Or do you want to follow one where civilians are protected and not valid targets? Then you need to segregate your military away from them, even if it means your defeat.

If you want to detach the emotion from it and no longer care about protecting civilians (the kind of mindset that allows not segregating them), then a quite "logical" strategy is to destroy the civilian population that is supporting the military so the military falls. We see all the time in RTS games, where you destroy the villagers or whatever equivalent to stop the enemy being able to get resources to train more military. While not a perfect analogy it does still hold.
Likewise, the logical strategy defied by virtually all modern powers is to kill the medics, and kill the wounded, so they can't recover and come back to fight again.
Likewise, the logical strategy when you have people surrendering is often to kill them so you don't have to support them and don't risk them trying to fight back. The only reason to keep them prisoner is if you want people to surrender rather than fight to their last breath, and in that case, while keeping them alive, you can still do very little.
And if you can take out a target, without harming your own people, then do it, regardless of the collateral.
And if you are worried about the remaining people starting an uprising then destroy them.

Modern warfare has drastically removed itself from that emotionless logic.
It values civilian lives, to avoid taking out unnecessary civilian casualties.
It values even the military being able to survive, so wounded and medics and military hospitals are protected, and POWs are protected and cared for.
But those protections come with responsibilities.
If Hamas is not willing to obey those responsibilities, then every human shield they use is a valid military target while it is being used as a human shield.


that only holds true if all those are in support of hamas.
once again
not all palestiians are hamas, no more than all people in chicago are all gangsters.

5yo are not willing participants in combat.
get your head out your ass.

rules of war were created for a reason.
geneva and whatever.
and the super powers must play by their own rules, regardless.
and in this case, the super-backed IDF is suceeding in the... (what do we call it?)

Quote
[...]regardless of the collateral.
[...]destroy them.


...genocide


you're prime example of why robots shouldn't be in charge of nuclear launchcodes.



« Last Edit: January 26, 2026, 07:41:28 PM by Themightykabool »

*

JackBlack

  • 26157
  • +51/-79
Re: War
« Reply #4551 on: January 27, 2026, 01:35:47 AM »
Great idea.  Let Palestine have a proper military, with tanks, helicopters, jets, artillery, anti aircraft defence, etc.  instead of a bunch of guys with AK47s and pickup trucks. 

I wonder what Israel would think about that?
Or don't have terrorist groups running the country.
And when they show they can peacefully coexist they can be allowed a proper military.

?

Themightykabool

  • 13097
  • +58/-79
Re: War
« Reply #4552 on: January 27, 2026, 08:19:13 AM »
how can you peacefully exist with an agressor?

denying the agressor exists is part of the problem.

*

JackBlack

  • 26157
  • +51/-79
Re: War
« Reply #4553 on: January 27, 2026, 01:31:22 PM »
how can you peacefully exist with an agressor?

denying the agressor exists is part of the problem.
Yes, how can Israel peacefully coexist with the aggressive groups like Hamas?

?

Themightykabool

  • 13097
  • +58/-79
Re: War
« Reply #4554 on: January 27, 2026, 02:50:00 PM »
sniper - one bullet one kill
to snipe is to look them in the eye and take their life.



your information was gathered underbiased sources.
you need more sources.
the world is grey.

it is possible that everyone on both sides are monsters.
this ain't some quantum entanglement bullshit.
the quantum superposition from the given the results can be evaluated in their own context and own merit.


you think these were hamas hiding behind kids and the sniper just had to shoot to get the bad guy behind the kid?

https://www.france24.com/en/tv-shows/t%C3%AAte-%C3%A0-t%C3%AAte/20241029-us-doctor-claims-israeli-snipers-target-child-in-gaza-no-child-gets-shot-twice-by-mistakea

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Khalil_al-Mughrabi

https://www.dci-palestine.org/israeli_forces_shoot_kill_16_year_old_palestinian_boy_near_jerusalem

https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2025/12/9/israel-shot-my-little-sister-during-the-gaza-ceasefire

https://www.aljazeera.com/video/newsfeed/2025/1/20/palestinian-child-killed-by-israeli-sniper-despite-ceasefire

https://electronicintifada.net/content/after-babys-murder-israeli-sniper-kills-another-palestinian-child/14741


*

markjo

  • Content Nazi
  • 45077
  • +87/-101
Re: War
« Reply #4555 on: January 27, 2026, 05:00:32 PM »
how can you peacefully exist with an agressor?

denying the agressor exists is part of the problem.
Yes, how can Israel peacefully coexist with the aggressive groups like Hamas?
How can Palestinians peacefully coexist with an aggressive government like Israel?  It takes both sides to peacefully coexist.  Maybe, just maybe, if Israel was less aggressive, then maybe, just maybe, Hamas might be less aggressive.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2026, 05:02:39 PM by markjo »
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

*

Aera23

  • :3
  • 1359
  • +99/-51
  • :3
Re: War
« Reply #4556 on: January 28, 2026, 12:04:30 AM »
I'm just wondering what happens when *ANY* side manages to develop AI autonomous weapons, eg drones with dozens of rounds. How far will the arms race go, and how long before there ends up being a super-killing machine that spreads beyond the primary battlefields?
:3 (ensure VPN is off to avoid temp bans)
I am bulmabriefs144, Smasher of Testicles.  You see? Titles are ridiculous.

*

Jura-Glenlivet II

  • Flat Earth Inquisitor
  • 7370
  • +54/-89
  • Will I still be perfect tomorrow?
Re: War
« Reply #4557 on: January 28, 2026, 01:41:06 AM »
how can you peacefully exist with an agressor?

denying the agressor exists is part of the problem.
Yes, how can Israel peacefully coexist with the aggressive groups like Hamas?
How can Palestinians peacefully coexist with an aggressive government like Israel?  It takes both sides to peacefully coexist.  Maybe, just maybe, if Israel was less aggressive, then maybe, just maybe, Hamas might be less aggressive.


And let’s not forget that the Netanyahu government pumped millions of dollars to Hamas via Qatar because they wanted the Palestinian authority out of power as they were pushing for the establishment of a Palestinian state, and foreign governments were dealing with them but wouldn’t with Hamas.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
Life is meaningless and everything dies.

Every man makes a god of his own desire

*

JackBlack

  • 26157
  • +51/-79
Re: War
« Reply #4558 on: January 29, 2026, 12:35:25 PM »
your information was gathered underbiased sources.
And you think your sources aren't biased?


It takes both sides to peacefully coexist.  Maybe, just maybe, if Israel was less aggressive, then maybe, just maybe, Hamas might be less aggressive.
Hamas has as part of their charter the desire to clean Israel from existence and take over the entire area.
If Israel was less defensive, Hamas would be more aggressive.
You cannot peacefully coexist with a group like Hamas that wants to wipe you out and has that as a fundamental part of their charter.

And let’s not forget that the Netanyahu government pumped millions of dollars to Hamas via Qatar because they wanted the Palestinian authority out of power as they were pushing for the establishment of a Palestinian state, and foreign governments were dealing with them but wouldn’t with Hamas.
Did they, or were they just allowing that money in from foreign governments?
Now imagine an alternative.
They try to block all the money going in.
Some still gets smuggled, but now people are also saying they are horrible for blocking foreign aid into Gaza.
It is as if no matter what they do, people will complain.

*

markjo

  • Content Nazi
  • 45077
  • +87/-101
Re: War
« Reply #4559 on: January 29, 2026, 01:41:53 PM »
It takes both sides to peacefully coexist.  Maybe, just maybe, if Israel was less aggressive, then maybe, just maybe, Hamas might be less aggressive.
Hamas has as part of their charter the desire to clean Israel from existence and take over the entire area.
Again, not all of the Palestinian people share the views of Hamas.  Most of them just want a homeland where they can live in peace.

If Israel was less defensive, Hamas would be more aggressive.
There is a difference between being defensive and being aggressive.  I suggested that Israel be less aggressive.

You cannot peacefully coexist with a group like Hamas that wants to wipe you out and has that as a fundamental part of their charter.
Then focus on Hamas and take it easy on the civilian population that wouldn't mind peacefully coexisting with Israel.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.