War

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Pezevenk

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Re: War
« Reply #990 on: March 06, 2022, 06:20:30 AM »
The point pez is making is that if you annex it them it becomes part of Russia and the president will be Putin, you don't need Yanukovych.

Ok, Pedantic Pez strikes again,  while completely missing the point.

Apparently to you the difference between annexing a country and assimilating it into your own and replacing its government is just "pedantry". Just admit you're confused, jeez.
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Crouton

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Re: War
« Reply #991 on: March 06, 2022, 06:27:37 AM »
As you said before, news outlets everywhere have pre written stories for every contingency.
Right. And in state run media, the head of state decides what they want the "We Won!" story to read like, just like they decide how to spin some version of the "We lost *sadface*" story into whatever.

Do you know what every type of "we won" story they had looked like? Also no, that's not how state media works, at all. Putin doesn't personally oversee every story they run, obviously. Even the most controlled of state media come up with things they think their government will like and then run it through whomever is responsible for controlling them if it is very important. But there is no reason to think Putin just tells them every clandestine plan ahead of time.

Quote
What do you mean informed about secret plans? No one thinks it's really a secret that Putin wants to reclaim Ukraine.
Putin explicitly says he DOESN'T want to reclaim the whole of Ukraine. You are saying he does. Let's suppose he does. How is that not a secret? And if it's not a secret and everyone is so sure about it, then why does he say otherwise? Wouldn't it be pointless?

Why would you take Putin at his word on anything at this point?  If Putin doesn't want the entire country then why is he attacking the entire country or is his army really that bad at navigating Ukraine?
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Space Cowgirl

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Re: War
« Reply #992 on: March 06, 2022, 06:39:38 AM »
There's so much propaganda flying around, I don't think I can anyone's word for anything. lol
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: War
« Reply #993 on: March 06, 2022, 07:00:21 AM »
https://ilyalozovsky.substack.com/p/what-russian-officials-think-of-the

Quote
This is my translation of a March 1 report by Farida Rustamova, an excellent and super-well-connected Russian journalist. Her deep sourcing in top levels of the Russian government allowed her to paint the best picture I’ve seen so far the prevailing mood in the days after the invasion.

This is interesting.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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Pezevenk

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Re: War
« Reply #994 on: March 06, 2022, 07:15:22 AM »
As you said before, news outlets everywhere have pre written stories for every contingency.
Right. And in state run media, the head of state decides what they want the "We Won!" story to read like, just like they decide how to spin some version of the "We lost *sadface*" story into whatever.

Do you know what every type of "we won" story they had looked like? Also no, that's not how state media works, at all. Putin doesn't personally oversee every story they run, obviously. Even the most controlled of state media come up with things they think their government will like and then run it through whomever is responsible for controlling them if it is very important. But there is no reason to think Putin just tells them every clandestine plan ahead of time.

Quote
What do you mean informed about secret plans? No one thinks it's really a secret that Putin wants to reclaim Ukraine.
Putin explicitly says he DOESN'T want to reclaim the whole of Ukraine. You are saying he does. Let's suppose he does. How is that not a secret? And if it's not a secret and everyone is so sure about it, then why does he say otherwise? Wouldn't it be pointless?

Why would you take Putin at his word on anything at this point?  If Putin doesn't want the entire country then why is he attacking the entire country or is his army really that bad at navigating Ukraine?

My argument was never that it's not gonna happen because Putin said so. I said Putin says he's not gonna do it, so obviously he doesn't want people to think he IS going to do it. So if he was planning to do it, that would clearly be in secret, and I don't believe he shares secret plans with media ahead of time. So I don't believe Russian media know anything important about what is planned.

As for why he is attacking the whole country and not just some specific area, that's kind of obvious. Think of any recent war where in some cases an entire country was attacked. Even in the successful ones, how many of them ended up in the entire country getting annexed?
« Last Edit: March 06, 2022, 07:17:53 AM by Pezevenk »
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Stash

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Re: War
« Reply #995 on: March 06, 2022, 09:33:01 AM »
Some pundits are in agreement with perhaps the endgame is not to take the entire country. A theory is that he wants Donbas, I'm not sure why. He also wants some swath over on the Western border abutting Poland, Slovakia, Hungary & Romania as I think a buffer. And finally, perhaps most interesting, a big southern swath just above Crimea.

Why the third area is interesting is because of water, the salty kind and the drinkable kind. Crimea apparently is a barren wasteland. It got like 85% of its water from a canal off of the Dneiper river in southern Ukraine. After Russia annexed Crimea in 2014, Ukraine cemented up the canal - No more Ukranian potable water to Crimea. With the annexation of Crimea, Russia also got all of the water rights off the coast in the Black Sea where there are a bunch of oil reserves and existing platforms and such.

Lastly, I was reading an opinion piece in the WSJ written by a Russian historian. He was saying Putin may not want the whole shootin' match because then he has to take on all of its ills, not to mention millions of very angry anti-Moscow people. He cited Hungary in 1956. There was a big uprising against the USSR, Russia had to roll in with tanks and then take total control of the nation. With it, came the responsibility of propping up the place, maintaining order, all that nation building stuff. Very expensive and resource heavy.

And maybe to do all that, Putin has smash Kyiv, take what he wants and leaves the rest behind.

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Wolvaccine

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Re: War
« Reply #996 on: March 06, 2022, 09:46:43 AM »
He could take the entire country, and after he's finished fucking it over, 'graciously' hand it over to someone sympathetic to Russia like that Belarusian president and maybe weasel his way into having some sanctions relieved for it

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Pezevenk

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Re: War
« Reply #997 on: March 06, 2022, 10:44:29 AM »
https://ilyalozovsky.substack.com/p/what-russian-officials-think-of-the

Quote
This is my translation of a March 1 report by Farida Rustamova, an excellent and super-well-connected Russian journalist. Her deep sourcing in top levels of the Russian government allowed her to paint the best picture I’ve seen so far the prevailing mood in the days after the invasion.

This is interesting.

If accurate it shows that this may end very badly for Putin.
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Crouton

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Re: War
« Reply #998 on: March 06, 2022, 11:12:03 AM »
It sounds like it would end badly for Russia.  Putin will happily use his entire country to shield himself from any consequences.
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Rayzor

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Re: War
« Reply #999 on: March 06, 2022, 03:40:05 PM »
Why would you take Putin at his word on anything at this point?  If Putin doesn't want the entire country then why is he attacking the entire country or is his army really that bad at navigating Ukraine?

Here is that Masha Gessen interview from 2017.  It's a bit long but very interesting look into how Putin came to power and how he views the world.

One of Putin's consistent tactics is to attack,  then pull back and when least expected he attacks again.

Putin wants all of Ukraine, he might take multiple bites at it, like declaring a ceasefire and withdrawing troops but eventually he will attack again, he wants the lot.



Stop gilding the pickle, you demisexual aromantic homoflexible snowflake.

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Crouton

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Re: War
« Reply #1000 on: March 06, 2022, 05:14:37 PM »
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2022/03/06/trump-focuses-foreign-policy-speech-gops-top-donors/

The former guy's plan to handle Russia. Disguise our fighter planes as Chinese and then bomb Russia. Then Russia and China will be at war with each other.

This is the guy who may very well be president again.
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Bullwinkle

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Re: War
« Reply #1001 on: March 06, 2022, 10:35:36 PM »

My argument was never that it's not gonna happen because Putin said so. I said Putin says he's not gonna do it, so obviously he doesn't want people to think he IS going to do it. So if he was planning to do it, that would clearly be in secret, and I don't believe he shares secret plans with media ahead of time. So I don't believe Russian media know anything important about what is planned.

Ok, so, what, seriously, in the fuck, are you trying to spew?



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Crouton

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Re: War
« Reply #1002 on: March 06, 2022, 11:40:11 PM »
Ceasefire to evacuate civilians broken within hours.  Can Putin just fucking die on the shitter please?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60629851

https://t.me/rian_ru/151726

Ah there's the problem. Ukrainians wanted to highly unsafe escape routs to NATO countries.  Fortunately Russia has provided much better escape routes to the much safer countries of Russia and Belarus.
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Rayzor

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Re: War
« Reply #1003 on: March 07, 2022, 02:03:09 AM »

My argument was never that it's not gonna happen because Putin said so. I said Putin says he's not gonna do it, so obviously he doesn't want people to think he IS going to do it. So if he was planning to do it, that would clearly be in secret, and I don't believe he shares secret plans with media ahead of time. So I don't believe Russian media know anything important about what is planned.

Ok, so, what, seriously, in the fuck, are you trying to spew?

He can be safely ignored without loss,  he's an ultracrepidarian.

Stop gilding the pickle, you demisexual aromantic homoflexible snowflake.

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Bullwinkle

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Re: War
« Reply #1004 on: March 07, 2022, 02:16:53 AM »
ultracrepidarian.

Rayzor has won the internet this day, Monday, March 7, 2022
Congratulations my friend, well deserved.

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Calen

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Re: War
« Reply #1005 on: March 07, 2022, 03:31:09 AM »
Ceasefire to evacuate civilians broken within hours.  Can Putin just fucking die on the shitter please?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60629851

https://t.me/rian_ru/151726

Ah there's the problem. Ukrainians wanted to highly unsafe escape routs to NATO countries.  Fortunately Russia has provided much better escape routes to the much safer countries of Russia and Belarus.

Makes sense considering the Russian narrative - all those refugees fleeing into Russia and Belarus to escape 'Nazi' Ukraine.  It's exactly what he needs on RTV, et al.
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Pezevenk

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Re: War
« Reply #1006 on: March 07, 2022, 05:02:11 AM »

My argument was never that it's not gonna happen because Putin said so. I said Putin says he's not gonna do it, so obviously he doesn't want people to think he IS going to do it. So if he was planning to do it, that would clearly be in secret, and I don't believe he shares secret plans with media ahead of time. So I don't believe Russian media know anything important about what is planned.

Ok, so, what, seriously, in the fuck, are you trying to spew?

The definition of a secret plan is something you are planning to carry out but you deny it publicly. Putin publicly denies wanting to annex Ukraine, Boydster thinks he does plan to do that. But for some reason he doesn't think Putin considers it a secret and he'd just spread it around willy nilly to people who may very well leak it. Pretty simple.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2022, 05:05:51 AM by Pezevenk »
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Wolvaccine

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Re: War
« Reply #1007 on: March 07, 2022, 05:10:00 AM »

My argument was never that it's not gonna happen because Putin said so. I said Putin says he's not gonna do it, so obviously he doesn't want people to think he IS going to do it. So if he was planning to do it, that would clearly be in secret, and I don't believe he shares secret plans with media ahead of time. So I don't believe Russian media know anything important about what is planned.

Ok, so, what, seriously, in the fuck, are you trying to spew?

The definition of a secret plan is something you are planning to carry out but you deny it publicly. Putin publicly denies wanting to annex Ukraine, Boydster thinks he does plan to do that. But for some reason he doesn't think Putin considers it a secret. Pretty simple.

You forget this is the Russians. They will tell you one thing while doing the other. No matter how blatant or in your face the lie might be. You could have the red army ransacking your Greek capital shooting at your elected officials and Putin will still say 'no! We dont want to invade your country!'

What statesmen tell their home audience may be completely at odds with what they tell a world audience. A lot of the time, what they say to the world, is not intended for us at all but for their own people back home.

One things for sure. If Putin says he doesn't want to take over Ukraine - you can be sure as shit he wants to take over Ukraine. Every time his lips moves, it's a lie


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Pezevenk

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Re: War
« Reply #1008 on: March 07, 2022, 05:11:07 AM »

My argument was never that it's not gonna happen because Putin said so. I said Putin says he's not gonna do it, so obviously he doesn't want people to think he IS going to do it. So if he was planning to do it, that would clearly be in secret, and I don't believe he shares secret plans with media ahead of time. So I don't believe Russian media know anything important about what is planned.

Ok, so, what, seriously, in the fuck, are you trying to spew?

The definition of a secret plan is something you are planning to carry out but you deny it publicly. Putin publicly denies wanting to annex Ukraine, Boydster thinks he does plan to do that. But for some reason he doesn't think Putin considers it a secret. Pretty simple.

You forget this is the Russians. They will tell you one thing while doing the other. No matter how blatant or in your face the lie might be. You could have the red army ransacking your Greek capital shooting at your elected officials and Putin will still say 'no! We dont want to invade your country!'

What statesmen tell their home audience may be completely at odds with what they tell a world audience. A lot of the time, what they say to the world, is not intended for us at all but for their own people back home.

One things for sure. If Putin says he doesn't want to take over Ukraine - you can be sure as shit he wants to take over Ukraine. Every time his lips moves, it's a lie

How are you still missing the point?
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Wolvaccine

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Re: War
« Reply #1009 on: March 07, 2022, 05:15:10 AM »

My argument was never that it's not gonna happen because Putin said so. I said Putin says he's not gonna do it, so obviously he doesn't want people to think he IS going to do it. So if he was planning to do it, that would clearly be in secret, and I don't believe he shares secret plans with media ahead of time. So I don't believe Russian media know anything important about what is planned.

Ok, so, what, seriously, in the fuck, are you trying to spew?

The definition of a secret plan is something you are planning to carry out but you deny it publicly. Putin publicly denies wanting to annex Ukraine, Boydster thinks he does plan to do that. But for some reason he doesn't think Putin considers it a secret. Pretty simple.

You forget this is the Russians. They will tell you one thing while doing the other. No matter how blatant or in your face the lie might be. You could have the red army ransacking your Greek capital shooting at your elected officials and Putin will still say 'no! We dont want to invade your country!'

What statesmen tell their home audience may be completely at odds with what they tell a world audience. A lot of the time, what they say to the world, is not intended for us at all but for their own people back home.

One things for sure. If Putin says he doesn't want to take over Ukraine - you can be sure as shit he wants to take over Ukraine. Every time his lips moves, it's a lie

How are you still missing the point?

Ok. So you tell us then. What exactly is Putins end game, whether he is successful or not. You tell us, what is Putin thinking? What does Putin want?

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what website did you use to buy your wife? Did you choose Chinese over Russian because she can't open her eyes to see you?

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Know your place

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Pezevenk

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Re: War
« Reply #1010 on: March 07, 2022, 05:26:10 AM »

My argument was never that it's not gonna happen because Putin said so. I said Putin says he's not gonna do it, so obviously he doesn't want people to think he IS going to do it. So if he was planning to do it, that would clearly be in secret, and I don't believe he shares secret plans with media ahead of time. So I don't believe Russian media know anything important about what is planned.

Ok, so, what, seriously, in the fuck, are you trying to spew?

The definition of a secret plan is something you are planning to carry out but you deny it publicly. Putin publicly denies wanting to annex Ukraine, Boydster thinks he does plan to do that. But for some reason he doesn't think Putin considers it a secret. Pretty simple.

You forget this is the Russians. They will tell you one thing while doing the other. No matter how blatant or in your face the lie might be. You could have the red army ransacking your Greek capital shooting at your elected officials and Putin will still say 'no! We dont want to invade your country!'

What statesmen tell their home audience may be completely at odds with what they tell a world audience. A lot of the time, what they say to the world, is not intended for us at all but for their own people back home.

One things for sure. If Putin says he doesn't want to take over Ukraine - you can be sure as shit he wants to take over Ukraine. Every time his lips moves, it's a lie

How are you still missing the point?

Ok. So you tell us then. What exactly is Putins end game, whether he is successful or not. You tell us, what is Putin thinking? What does Putin want?
No one really knows for sure, that's the point. The most likely thing is he grabs some parts of southern Ukraine around Crimea for himself, tries to force Ukraine to cede Crimea and creates an independent state in eastern Ukraine which will probably end up joining Russia, and also he tries to force Ukraine to cede NATO ambitions. Perhaps he also tries to install a different government but that probably won't work.

But that was not the point. The point is that Boydster thinks the pre written article that was posted by accident on the website of a state news outlet proves he wants to annex Ukraine. I don't think it proves anything because I don't think Putin tells them everything he is planning. What he is actually planning is top secret information, he's not gonna spread it around for no good reason. Publicly he says he doesn't want to annex it, so clearly he doesn't want people to think he will, so why would he risk that information getting leaked just to make the job of media very slightly (if at all) easier?
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Bullwinkle

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Re: War
« Reply #1011 on: March 07, 2022, 05:36:31 AM »

The definition of a secret plan is something you are planning to carry out but you deny it publicly.
The definition of a secret plan is a plan you keep secret.


Putin publicly denies wanting to annex Ukraine,
Well, OK then.


Boydster thinks he does plan to do that.
Well, that's what Putin is doing.



But for some reason he doesn't think Putin considers it a secret and he'd just spread it around willy nilly to people who may very well leak it. Pretty simple.
That's what you have been told to think.   
Or, it is what your experience has trained you to think.




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Wolvaccine

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Re: War
« Reply #1012 on: March 07, 2022, 05:37:53 AM »
State news outlets in dictatorships like China or Russia are for intents and purposes another arm of the government. They aren't fiction writers (well they are but you know what I mean). The people employed there aren't simple plebs. And any article written would be vetted. Remember Putin would have done quite a spin job selling this 'special military operation' of Ukraine to his sheeple.

Is he taking Ukraine permanently in a way that redraws the map that encompasses the area once known as Ukraine but now part of Russia? I dont know. It's possible he wants it to behave itself like Belarus and to do that, he needs to take the country, install his favourite puppet and then 'give it back'. But to be honest, that's not really giving it back. He fucked up the country and installed a political leader of his choosing. It would operate no different than another 'state' of Russia. It's Ukraine, without actually being Ukraine.

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Pezevenk

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Re: War
« Reply #1013 on: March 07, 2022, 06:54:09 AM »
To do that, you have to make sure your puppet can be preserved, and to do that, he'd probably have to occupy Ukraine. And that's not very easy.
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Wolvaccine

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Re: War
« Reply #1014 on: March 07, 2022, 06:57:17 AM »
To do that, you have to make sure your puppet can be preserved, and to do that, he'd probably have to occupy Ukraine. And that's not very easy.

And yet, here we are. With a clear operation to take the capital and get rid of Zelenskyy


Quote from: sokarul
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What animal relates to your wife?

Know your place

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: War
« Reply #1015 on: March 07, 2022, 07:18:31 AM »

My argument was never that it's not gonna happen because Putin said so. I said Putin says he's not gonna do it, so obviously he doesn't want people to think he IS going to do it. So if he was planning to do it, that would clearly be in secret, and I don't believe he shares secret plans with media ahead of time. So I don't believe Russian media know anything important about what is planned.

Ok, so, what, seriously, in the fuck, are you trying to spew?

The definition of a secret plan is something you are planning to carry out but you deny it publicly. Putin publicly denies wanting to annex Ukraine, Boydster thinks he does plan to do that. But for some reason he doesn't think Putin considers it a secret. Pretty simple.

You forget this is the Russians. They will tell you one thing while doing the other. No matter how blatant or in your face the lie might be. You could have the red army ransacking your Greek capital shooting at your elected officials and Putin will still say 'no! We dont want to invade your country!'

What statesmen tell their home audience may be completely at odds with what they tell a world audience. A lot of the time, what they say to the world, is not intended for us at all but for their own people back home.

One things for sure. If Putin says he doesn't want to take over Ukraine - you can be sure as shit he wants to take over Ukraine. Every time his lips moves, it's a lie

How are you still missing the point?

Ok. So you tell us then. What exactly is Putins end game, whether he is successful or not. You tell us, what is Putin thinking? What does Putin want?
No one really knows for sure, that's the point. The most likely thing is he grabs some parts of southern Ukraine around Crimea for himself, tries to force Ukraine to cede Crimea and creates an independent state in eastern Ukraine which will probably end up joining Russia, and also he tries to force Ukraine to cede NATO ambitions. Perhaps he also tries to install a different government but that probably won't work.

But that was not the point. The point is that Boydster thinks the pre written article that was posted by accident on the website of a state news outlet proves he wants to annex Ukraine. I don't think it proves anything because I don't think Putin tells them everything he is planning. What he is actually planning is top secret information, he's not gonna spread it around for no good reason. Publicly he says he doesn't want to annex it, so clearly he doesn't want people to think he will, so why would he risk that information getting leaked just to make the job of media very slightly (if at all) easier?

There's so much propaganda coming out every day, I don't know why anyone doesn't take that pre written article with a heap of salt.

Just last night there was a video of a climate change protest in Austria (where protesters were in body bags) altered to make it look like Ukraine was faking the death toll of the war.
Media figures make this shit even worse, because they retweet anything before checking, and sometimes they write articles based on tweets without checking. They also lift up dodgy characters to the level of expert, without checking their history.

I wonder if there has ever been a more perfect time for a propaganda war.

I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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Lorddave

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Re: War
« Reply #1016 on: March 07, 2022, 07:46:42 AM »

My argument was never that it's not gonna happen because Putin said so. I said Putin says he's not gonna do it, so obviously he doesn't want people to think he IS going to do it. So if he was planning to do it, that would clearly be in secret, and I don't believe he shares secret plans with media ahead of time. So I don't believe Russian media know anything important about what is planned.

Ok, so, what, seriously, in the fuck, are you trying to spew?

The definition of a secret plan is something you are planning to carry out but you deny it publicly. Putin publicly denies wanting to annex Ukraine, Boydster thinks he does plan to do that. But for some reason he doesn't think Putin considers it a secret. Pretty simple.

You forget this is the Russians. They will tell you one thing while doing the other. No matter how blatant or in your face the lie might be. You could have the red army ransacking your Greek capital shooting at your elected officials and Putin will still say 'no! We dont want to invade your country!'

What statesmen tell their home audience may be completely at odds with what they tell a world audience. A lot of the time, what they say to the world, is not intended for us at all but for their own people back home.

One things for sure. If Putin says he doesn't want to take over Ukraine - you can be sure as shit he wants to take over Ukraine. Every time his lips moves, it's a lie

How are you still missing the point?

Ok. So you tell us then. What exactly is Putins end game, whether he is successful or not. You tell us, what is Putin thinking? What does Putin want?
No one really knows for sure, that's the point. The most likely thing is he grabs some parts of southern Ukraine around Crimea for himself, tries to force Ukraine to cede Crimea and creates an independent state in eastern Ukraine which will probably end up joining Russia, and also he tries to force Ukraine to cede NATO ambitions. Perhaps he also tries to install a different government but that probably won't work.

But that was not the point. The point is that Boydster thinks the pre written article that was posted by accident on the website of a state news outlet proves he wants to annex Ukraine. I don't think it proves anything because I don't think Putin tells them everything he is planning. What he is actually planning is top secret information, he's not gonna spread it around for no good reason. Publicly he says he doesn't want to annex it, so clearly he doesn't want people to think he will, so why would he risk that information getting leaked just to make the job of media very slightly (if at all) easier?

There's so much propaganda coming out every day, I don't know why anyone doesn't take that pre written article with a heap of salt.

Just last night there was a video of a climate change protest in Austria (where protesters were in body bags) altered to make it look like Ukraine was faking the death toll of the war.
Media figures make this shit even worse, because they retweet anything before checking, and sometimes they write articles based on tweets without checking. They also lift up dodgy characters to the level of expert, without checking their history.

I wonder if there has ever been a more perfect time for a propaganda war.



It is a heaping salt article.  But we know Putin is very patriotic and has spun his own narrative.
Its not outside the realm of possibility that someone wrote a very "oh great russia, how great you are" article on the idea the war would be won in a way that would make Putin happy.
Its very "we saved our russian brothers from the horrors of not being russian".
Gone.

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: War
« Reply #1017 on: March 07, 2022, 07:51:46 AM »
Here's an example of some propaganda being spread https://twitter.com/borzou/status/1500716991673421828?s=20&t=tTWE0Fd87jtjBY6VBJ61vw  (not by Borzou Daragahi, he's pointing it out)

Most of the propaganda I see on Twitter is trying to make Ukraine the bad guys, the pro Ukraine propaganda is usually something like the Ukraine ghost pilot thing, which the media tends to hop on and spread because it's so heroic and everyone wants to believe.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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Lorddave

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Re: War
« Reply #1018 on: March 07, 2022, 07:55:02 AM »
Here's an example of some propaganda being spread https://twitter.com/borzou/status/1500716991673421828?s=20&t=tTWE0Fd87jtjBY6VBJ61vw  (not by Borzou Daragahi, he's pointing it out)

Most of the propaganda I see on Twitter is trying to make Ukraine the bad guys, the pro Ukraine propaganda is usually something like the Ukraine ghost pilot thing, which the media tends to hop on and spread because it's so heroic and everyone wants to believe.

Social media was a mistake.
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Crouton

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Re: War
« Reply #1019 on: March 07, 2022, 08:01:14 AM »
Always with the Azov battalion.  I'm pretty sure that either as a percentage or actual numbers we have more nazis in our military than Ukraine does.
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