War

The only reason UN recognized Ukraine and all other former Soviet republics is simply to weaken Russia, everything that U.S. and EU  is doing in Ukraine has nothing to do with Ukraine or help Ukrainian people, this is all designed to make Russia weak, there is no other reason for Western involvement. Do you guys even know why there are rebels in Eastern Ukraine in the first place? Because CIA controlled Ukraine makes life for Russian speaking people hellish. Ukraine openly celebrates former Nazi heroes like Stephen Bandera and then expect Russians do stand by and do what exactly? Everything Ukraine has done since 2014 is a spit in a Russian face, they deface WWII monuments and openly call for ethnic cleansing and  you wonder why people in East Ukraine are rebelling?

And When America invades other countries they say same thing Putin does, "we are here cause people want us here". Bush said this in Iraq, Johnson said this in Vietnam. So before calling out Putin, know your own damn government.

They had their own language, their own history, culture, and were a part of thr Soviet Union. (Meaning not Russia directly)
Go read some history, like I did.

And honestly, all those protests could be the same shit the US did to Iran.  Except its Russia doing it.

Quote from: New Earth on February 20, 2022, 10:38:26 PM

As someone of Jewish Eastern European ancestry I can tell you that there was never any Ukraine in the past. Ukraine was always Russia and culturally it will always be Russia. Anyways Putin is not interested in invading Ukraine because if he did he would have done so already. It makes zero sense to invade a poor country and have responsibility of feeding millions of people, while Russia is struggling to feed their own population. You wanna invade rich countries and Ukraine under Russia will be an absolute burden to already bad Russian economy. Biden is an idiot and everything you hear on the news about Russia invading is fake. Biden simply wants to shift the attention out of how poorly he is performing unto something else, he wants  you to hate Russia rather then hating the fucking Democrats who ruined this country under Biden. The only thing Putin doesn't want is for Ukraine to join NATO and have NATO troops alongside Russian border, can you blame him?

Just quoting this for when it inevitably proves you to be an ignorant dumbarse

Well that didn't last long lol

Quote from: Pezevenk on February 21, 2022, 05:28:21 AM

Quote from: Rayzor on February 20, 2022, 03:45:33 PM

There seems to be a disparity between the public statements of the Ukrainian ministers and the general statements from Nato countries.

The Ukrainians are saying things like,  the likelyhood of a Russian invasion is low.  While Nato citing intelligence reporting that the order has already been given.

The military types are saying the Russians are waiting on favourable colder weather and frozen ground for the tanks and heavy machinery to not get bogged. 

I'm thinking all three are correct, and the Ukrainians know something about the ground conditions.

The correct move right now might be to sanction Russian oligarchs and sieze their overseas assets.

Do these military types also think it's a strategically good idea to just sit there and postpone the invasion until the enemy gets prepared?

You missed the point.  The Russians even have a word for it, rasputitsa.   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rasputitsa

Some analysis to follow up.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/interactive/2022/ukraine-russia-invasion-geography-weather/

I didn't say it's not a thing. I just said that if he was waiting for anything right now, it wouldn't be that, it would be a call from Donetsk or Luhansk to invade. Otherwise it's kinda stupid to just wait while Ukraine gets ready.

Quote from: Pezevenk on February 21, 2022, 10:45:55 AM

Now Putin recognized the separatist regions.

What does it mean? I see people saying this is a violation of international law. That he is blaming Ukraine for the violence in Donbas.

It means he can send in troops according to him because Donetsk and Luhansk asked him.

Quote from: JJA on February 21, 2022, 04:33:10 PM

China is the wildcard there.

Not really. China will take the opposing view on whatever The West says. It's how they operate. Also our dimwitted prime minister demanding China vocally oppose the Russian troop deployment will only cause China to dig in and stay silent or do the opposite. Aussies PM really is an ignorant dumbarse

Also China has its own interests regarding Tibet, Xinjiang and Taiwan and everything in or near the South China Sea. So taking land and expanding is kinda their thing

Nobody recognizes Xinjiang as anything other than China. If someone did it would literally be like Putin recognizing Donetsk.

Ok. This is getting a bit too convoluted so I’ll drop where we’ve gone off topic.  My fault, mainly.

Quote from: Pezevenk on February 21, 2022, 05:08:44 AM

Quote

Whoa!  Opinion polls and language curriculums!  Great justification for sending troops into another country and carving bits off it.  If only we had opinion polls for Afghanistan and Iraq, and I might have supported those wars.

What other way do you propose other than opinion polls to see what public opinion is on the matter of joining Russia? Is that not legitimate?

Also, uh, "language curriculums" are kind of an important subject for ethnic minorities, as is being allowed to speak their language in broadcasts, as is being allowed to use their language in governance where they are a majority.

Opinion polls are a legitimate way to see what the public wants.  Not a legitimate justification for a foreign government to force the outcome.   

And I’m afraid no language laws reach the bar of oppression to justify it either.  You’re not suggesting it played any part at all in Putin’s decision to annex the Crimea are you?

I didn't say the polls were the justification. I brought up the polls to explain how Crimeans viewed themselves. In hindsight maybe I should have used the flag of Crimea (the one actually recognized by Ukraine when it was autonomous pre-2014). It's, uh, kinda similar to the Russian flag. It's pretty clear that most of them considered themselves Russian.

And yes, language laws do very much reach that bar, or at least are indicative of what is to come. Literally one of the most important issues regularly brought up by recognized ethnic minorities is the right to use their language. When someone coups the current government and one of the first things that the new government does is legislate against that, that is grounds to claim the new government is attempting eradication of their identity. It's happened again and again, it's just one of the most hot button subjects in these circumstances. And it's not just language laws. The past decade there has been growing nationalist sentiment in Ukraine, which leads to great animosity towards minorities, especially russophones. Just a few days ago 2 Ukrainian troops opened fire on russophone Greek civilians, killing two of them and injuring I believe 6, because of some trivial disagreement. It's just one incident of many. Ukraine today openly accepts in the ranks of its army the Azov batallion, who are openly Nazis. They also officially consider Stepan Bandera, a literal Nazi responsible for numerous war crimes, a national hero. Let's just say they're not that big on protecting ethnic minorities.

Putin may always have been a dead-eyed bastard, but he was a rational bastard.  He's been a master at triangulating the power structures of Russia and public opinion.  Now he's starting to look unhinged, which is far more scary than a masterful Bond villain.

Getting his senior officials to agree to the plan on "live" (it wasn't) national TV speaks volumes about how many of them have severe doubts about his plans

Sergei Naryshkin, the hawkish head of Russia’s spy service, known for making aggressively anti-western statements, stuttered uncomfortably as Putin grilled him on whether he supported the decision.

“Speak directly!” Putin snapped, twice.

Eventually, when he was able to get the words out, Naryshkin said he supported “the LNR and DNR becoming part of Russia.” Putin told him that wasn’t the subject of the discussion; it was only recognition being weighed up.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/21/putin-angry-spectacle-amounts-to-declaration-war-ukraine

The whole thing was pretty weird.  With other officials just sitting there telling blatant lies about "genocide" before shuffling off.

Basically telling them  "if this regime goes down then you shit heads are going down with it".  No, "I always advised against the invasion" later on.

My brother is still trying to sort the visa for his wife, but they will probably try to get somewhere that doesn't require a visa for Ukrainians, like Cyprus then on from their to UK once paperwork is sorted.  If it comes to that.

Putin may always have been a dead-eyed bastard, but he was a rational bastard.  He's been a master at triangulating the power structures of Russia and public opinion.  Now he's starting to look unhinged, which is far more scary than a masterful Bond villain.

Getting his senior officials to agree to the plan on "live" (it wasn't) national TV speaks volumes about how many of them have severe doubts about his plans

Quote

Sergei Naryshkin, the hawkish head of Russia’s spy service, known for making aggressively anti-western statements, stuttered uncomfortably as Putin grilled him on whether he supported the decision.

“Speak directly!” Putin snapped, twice.

Eventually, when he was able to get the words out, Naryshkin said he supported “the LNR and DNR becoming part of Russia.” Putin told him that wasn’t the subject of the discussion; it was only recognition being weighed up.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/21/putin-angry-spectacle-amounts-to-declaration-war-ukraine

The whole thing was pretty weird.  With other officials just sitting there telling blatant lies about "genocide" before shuffling off.

Basically telling them  "if this regime goes down then you shit heads are going down with it".  No, "I always advised against the invasion" later on.

My brother is still trying to sort the visa for his wife, but they will probably try to get somewhere that doesn't require a visa for Ukrainians, like Cyprus then on from their to UK once paperwork is sorted.  If it comes to that.

I hope they get out.  This is gonna get worse before its better.

The past decade there has been growing nationalist sentiment in Ukraine

I wonder why that is? 

which leads to great animosity towards minorities, especially russophones.

This, in my experience, has been greatly overblown - partly because of that idiot Poroshenko.  Nobody blinks an eye at people speaking Russian in Kyiv or Lviv, let alone further east or along the Black Sea where it is often the first language, even for "ethnic Ukrainians".  My brother and his family only speak Russian wherever they go in Ukraine.  He has friends who live and work in Kyiv without barely a word of Ukrainian.  "Nobody gives a shit" to quote him.

russophone Greek civilians, killing two of them and injuring I believe 6, because of some trivial disagreement

All the reporting seems very vague about the incident or what the argument was about.  I can't see anything about them being attacked because they were speaking Russian - as the area they were in is Russian speaking, it seems unlikely..  The whole incident looks pretty shady.

Quote from: Pezevenk on February 22, 2022, 03:54:50 AM

The past decade there has been growing nationalist sentiment in Ukraine

I wonder why that is? 

You tell me.

This, in my experience, has been greatly overblown - partly because of that idiot Poroshenko.  Nobody blinks an eye at people speaking Russian in Kyiv or Lviv, let alone further east or along the Black Sea where it is often the first language, even for "ethnic Ukrainians".  My brother and his family only speak Russian wherever they go in Ukraine.  He has friends who live and work in Kyiv without barely a word of Ukrainian. 

Of course they don't, it's a majority language there. Which obviously makes it all the weirder when the government repeals language laws for these regions.

Quote

russophone Greek civilians, killing two of them and injuring I believe 6, because of some trivial disagreement

All the reporting seems very vague about the incident or what the argument was about.  I can't see anything about them being attacked because they were speaking Russian - as the area they were in is Russian speaking, it seems unlikely..  The whole incident looks pretty shady.

The cause of the disagreement was not them speaking russian or whatever, but the fact they did and that they weren't ethnic Ukrainians would obviously be kind of a contributing factor to them opening fire against them. Like, American cops don't shoot every black person they see in front of them but you know how it often goes when something happens. This happened close to Mariupol, which is the center of operations of that SS fan club that the Ukrainian army officially pays so I wouldn't be surprised if it was one of them.

in, out, play the victim, work the propaganda machine, justify the take over.

masterful chess man.




then you compare that to people who call trump 4D chess master.
aahahaha

masterful chess man.

Putin looks like he's playing pigeon chess at this stage.    He's just about to knock all the pieces over and shit on the board.

There'd be nothing "masterful" about a full scale invasion of Ukraine, it's unhinged.

Quote from: Themightykabool on February 22, 2022, 06:36:59 AM

masterful chess man.

Putin looks like he's playing pigeon chess at this stage.    He's just about to knock all the pieces over and shit on the board.

There'd be nothing "masterful" about a full scale invasion of Ukraine, it's unhinged.

But he is, isn't he?  He did legal mumbo jumbo + feeding sympathizers into parts if Ukrain for years to essentially make chunks of it Russian loving which allows him to walk in without opposition.

Quote from: Space Cowgirl on February 21, 2022, 11:51:55 AM

Quote from: Pezevenk on February 21, 2022, 10:45:55 AM

Now Putin recognized the separatist regions.

What does it mean? I see people saying this is a violation of international law. That he is blaming Ukraine for the violence in Donbas.

It means he can send in troops according to him because Donetsk and Luhansk asked him.

Do you agree he has the right to send in troops now that he has done it?

Or do you agree he has just invaded Ukraine, despite all the reassurances it would never happen?

Quote from: Pezevenk on February 22, 2022, 02:45:12 AM

Quote from: Space Cowgirl on February 21, 2022, 11:51:55 AM

Quote from: Pezevenk on February 21, 2022, 10:45:55 AM

Now Putin recognized the separatist regions.

What does it mean? I see people saying this is a violation of international law. That he is blaming Ukraine for the violence in Donbas.

It means he can send in troops according to him because Donetsk and Luhansk asked him.

Do you agree he has the right to send in troops now that he has done it?

Or do you agree he has just invaded Ukraine, despite all the reassurances it would never happen?

Never? I don't think anyone thinks it could never happen, I mean it's happened once already and they've been at war ever since lol

Although I don't think he'd ever try to annex anything beyond Donbass, that would be really really stupid. That's outside the realm of possibilities any time soon. Unless someone does something really stupid and egregious but I think even Zelensky is smarter than that. Shit will start going down if anyone crosses the line of no contact.

I don't think he'd ever try to annex anything beyond Donbass.

I feel like 8 years ago people said the same exact thing, except replace Donbass with Crimea

Quote from: Pezevenk on February 22, 2022, 09:23:29 AM

I don't think he'd ever try to annex anything beyond Donbass.

I feel like 8 years ago people said the same exact thing, except replace Donbass with Crimea

8 years ago he invaded Donbass too. That's how the line of no contact etc was formed.

Quote from: boydster on February 22, 2022, 09:26:45 AM

Quote from: Pezevenk on February 22, 2022, 09:23:29 AM

I don't think he'd ever try to annex anything beyond Donbass.

I feel like 8 years ago people said the same exact thing, except replace Donbass with Crimea

8 years ago he invaded Donbass too. That's how the line of no contact etc was formed.

 

So, it's a tradition?

Quote from: Pezevenk on February 22, 2022, 09:34:28 AM

Quote from: boydster on February 22, 2022, 09:26:45 AM

Quote from: Pezevenk on February 22, 2022, 09:23:29 AM

I don't think he'd ever try to annex anything beyond Donbass.

I feel like 8 years ago people said the same exact thing, except replace Donbass with Crimea

8 years ago he invaded Donbass too. That's how the line of no contact etc was formed.

 

So, it's a tradition?

It happens every 5 years but it was postponed due to covid.

https://thehill.com/blogs/in-the-know/in-the-know/595294-cardi-b-says-shes-not-really-on-nato-or-russias-side-amid

Cardi B says she's 'not really' on NATO or Russia's side amid Ukraine crisis

Okay everyone, Cardi B has not picked a side. This is very important. SHE MUST PICK A SIDE.

Biden must pass harsh sanctions against Cardi B!

Quote from: JimmyTheCrab on February 22, 2022, 08:20:26 AM

Quote from: Themightykabool on February 22, 2022, 06:36:59 AM

masterful chess man.

Putin looks like he's playing pigeon chess at this stage.    He's just about to knock all the pieces over and shit on the board.

There'd be nothing "masterful" about a full scale invasion of Ukraine, it's unhinged.

But he is, isn't he?

Is this a puzzle? 

He did legal mumbo jumbo + feeding sympathizers into parts if Ukrain for years to essentially make chunks of it Russian loving which allows him to walk in without opposition.

Yes, he can walk into eastern Donbass without opposition  - Ukraine lost control there years ago.  He can maybe take the rest of Donbas with limited bloodshed.  Although even somewhere like Mariupol could get very messy, as these things do.

However a march on Kyiv would be nuts.  However the discomfort expressed by some of his top officials makes me think he's at least put it on the table.

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/02/22/world/russia-ukraine-biden-putin#russian-lawmakers-approve-use-of-military-force-abroad

Russia is escalating.

Putin approves use of military force.

Demands Ukraine recognize Russia's claim to Crimea and relinquish their weapons.

Russia's opinion about the size of the Donetsk and Luhansk area differs by quite a bit from what everyone else thinks.

This sounds pretty bad.  I don't think Putin is stopping at the separatist regions.

Quote from: Unconvinced on February 21, 2022, 12:41:40 PM

Quote from: Pezevenk on February 21, 2022, 05:08:44 AM

Quote

Whoa!  Opinion polls and language curriculums!  Great justification for sending troops into another country and carving bits off it.  If only we had opinion polls for Afghanistan and Iraq, and I might have supported those wars.

What other way do you propose other than opinion polls to see what public opinion is on the matter of joining Russia? Is that not legitimate?

Also, uh, "language curriculums" are kind of an important subject for ethnic minorities, as is being allowed to speak their language in broadcasts, as is being allowed to use their language in governance where they are a majority.

Opinion polls are a legitimate way to see what the public wants.  Not a legitimate justification for a foreign government to force the outcome.   

And I’m afraid no language laws reach the bar of oppression to justify it either.  You’re not suggesting it played any part at all in Putin’s decision to annex the Crimea are you?

I didn't say the polls were the justification. I brought up the polls to explain how Crimeans viewed themselves. In hindsight maybe I should have used the flag of Crimea (the one actually recognized by Ukraine when it was autonomous pre-2014). It's, uh, kinda similar to the Russian flag. It's pretty clear that most of them considered themselves Russian.

And yes, language laws do very much reach that bar, or at least are indicative of what is to come. Literally one of the most important issues regularly brought up by recognized ethnic minorities is the right to use their language. When someone coups the current government and one of the first things that the new government does is legislate against that, that is grounds to claim the new government is attempting eradication of their identity. It's happened again and again, it's just one of the most hot button subjects in these circumstances. And it's not just language laws. The past decade there has been growing nationalist sentiment in Ukraine, which leads to great animosity towards minorities, especially russophones. Just a few days ago 2 Ukrainian troops opened fire on russophone Greek civilians, killing two of them and injuring I believe 6, because of some trivial disagreement. It's just one incident of many. Ukraine today openly accepts in the ranks of its army the Azov batallion, who are openly Nazis. They also officially consider Stepan Bandera, a literal Nazi responsible for numerous war crimes, a national hero. Let's just say they're not that big on protecting ethnic minorities.

Wow.  That might be the most interventionist argument I’ve ever heard.

Doesn’t sound like you set the bar that low when western governments get their militaries involved in other countries’ internal conflicts. 

Quote from: Lorddave on February 22, 2022, 08:27:26 AM

Quote from: JimmyTheCrab on February 22, 2022, 08:20:26 AM

Quote from: Themightykabool on February 22, 2022, 06:36:59 AM

masterful chess man.

Putin looks like he's playing pigeon chess at this stage.    He's just about to knock all the pieces over and shit on the board.

There'd be nothing "masterful" about a full scale invasion of Ukraine, it's unhinged.

But he is, isn't he?

Is this a puzzle? 

Quote

He did legal mumbo jumbo + feeding sympathizers into parts if Ukrain for years to essentially make chunks of it Russian loving which allows him to walk in without opposition.

Yes, he can walk into eastern Donbass without opposition  - Ukraine lost control there years ago.  He can maybe take the rest of Donbas with limited bloodshed.  Although even somewhere like Mariupol could get very messy, as these things do.

However a march on Kyiv would be nuts.  However the discomfort expressed by some of his top officials makes me think he's at least put it on the table.

Nuts today, yes.
Give him 5 years and maybe not.

Quote from: JJA on February 22, 2022, 08:31:40 AM

Quote from: Pezevenk on February 22, 2022, 02:45:12 AM

Quote from: Space Cowgirl on February 21, 2022, 11:51:55 AM

Quote from: Pezevenk on February 21, 2022, 10:45:55 AM

Now Putin recognized the separatist regions.

What does it mean? I see people saying this is a violation of international law. That he is blaming Ukraine for the violence in Donbas.

It means he can send in troops according to him because Donetsk and Luhansk asked him.

Do you agree he has the right to send in troops now that he has done it?

Or do you agree he has just invaded Ukraine, despite all the reassurances it would never happen?

Never? I don't think anyone thinks it could never happen, I mean it's happened once already and they've been at war ever since lol

Although I don't think he'd ever try to annex anything beyond Donbass, that would be really really stupid. That's outside the realm of possibilities any time soon. Unless someone does something really stupid and egregious but I think even Zelensky is smarter than that. Shit will start going down if anyone crosses the line of no contact.

Wow.  So now that he went and invaded, like you said he wasn't going to, you think he will just stop there unless Ukrane does something stupid like fight back.  No way he will do anything more, and if he does, it will be because he was provoked.

How dare the defend themselves.

Nothing is Putins fault, eh?  Poor Putin, forced to keep invading other countries.

Quote from: Pezevenk on February 22, 2022, 09:34:28 AM

Quote from: boydster on February 22, 2022, 09:26:45 AM

Quote from: Pezevenk on February 22, 2022, 09:23:29 AM

I don't think he'd ever try to annex anything beyond Donbass.

I feel like 8 years ago people said the same exact thing, except replace Donbass with Crimea

8 years ago he invaded Donbass too. That's how the line of no contact etc was formed.

 

So, it's a tradition?

But it'll totally never happen again

Rhe kyle secular talk show asked the question

Are xi ping and putin global dominion/ genocidal hitlers or just to recapture their territories (and a little bit of indegineous genocide)?

Quote from: Pezevenk on February 22, 2022, 09:23:29 AM

Quote from: JJA on February 22, 2022, 08:31:40 AM

Quote from: Pezevenk on February 22, 2022, 02:45:12 AM

Quote from: Space Cowgirl on February 21, 2022, 11:51:55 AM

Quote from: Pezevenk on February 21, 2022, 10:45:55 AM

Now Putin recognized the separatist regions.

What does it mean? I see people saying this is a violation of international law. That he is blaming Ukraine for the violence in Donbas.

It means he can send in troops according to him because Donetsk and Luhansk asked him.

Do you agree he has the right to send in troops now that he has done it?

Or do you agree he has just invaded Ukraine, despite all the reassurances it would never happen?

Never? I don't think anyone thinks it could never happen, I mean it's happened once already and they've been at war ever since lol

Although I don't think he'd ever try to annex anything beyond Donbass, that would be really really stupid. That's outside the realm of possibilities any time soon. Unless someone does something really stupid and egregious but I think even Zelensky is smarter than that. Shit will start going down if anyone crosses the line of no contact.

Wow.  So now that he went and invaded, like you said he wasn't going to, you think he will just stop there unless Ukrane does something stupid like fight back.  No way he will do anything more, and if he does, it will be because he was provoked.

How dare the defend themselves.

Nothing is Putins fault, eh?  Poor Putin, forced to keep invading other countries.

Uh, wait. You know where Russians are right now has already been occupied by Russian separatists since 2014, right? Did you not wonder why there was basically no military reaction? Or why Ukraine appears to be shelling Ukraine and also being shelled by Ukraine? I hope they stay there. Violating the no contact line is what I'm worried about and I think maybe he does want that but that depends on how things will go. Also please stop misspelling every country's name lol