War

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Pezevenk

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Re: War
« Reply #240 on: February 21, 2022, 05:23:20 AM »
As someone of Jewish Eastern European ancestry I can tell you that there was never any Ukraine in the past. Ukraine was always Russia and culturally it will always be Russia. Anyways Putin is not interested in invading Ukraine because if he did he would have done so already. It makes zero sense to invade a poor country and have responsibility of feeding millions of people, while Russia is struggling to feed their own population. You wanna invade rich countries and Ukraine under Russia will be an absolute burden to already bad Russian economy. Biden is an idiot and everything you hear on the news about Russia invading is fake. Biden simply wants to shift the attention out of how poorly he is performing unto something else, he wants  you to hate Russia rather then hating the fucking Democrats who ruined this country under Biden. The only thing Putin doesn't want is for Ukraine to join NATO and have NATO troops alongside Russian border, can you blame him?

1. Then why the buildup?
2. You realize nato nations already border russia, yes?  Including the current head of Nato, Norway.

Norway is nowhere close to anything particularly important in Russia. Of course the Baltic states are already in NATO, but he can't undo that obviously. Ukraine and Belarus are right next to Moscow, Russia won't just let them slide to NATO so easily.
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Pezevenk

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Re: War
« Reply #241 on: February 21, 2022, 05:24:55 AM »
No, it's true that it was not overwhelming in 2008. It's clear there was pretty broad support and if you see the undecided/opposed breakdown, you'll see opposition was really really low, most of the rest were undecided.
Well, that's definitely grounds for a military invasion then.   ::)

That's not what I said.
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Pezevenk

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Re: War
« Reply #242 on: February 21, 2022, 05:26:18 AM »
In your opinion does this justify Russia invading Crimea in 2014 and a possible invasion of the rest of Ukraine now?
And I also don't think that blame for the situation lies solely on Russia.

Agreed. Ukraine didn't fight for their sovereignty hard enough so they should cop some of the blame too. Why blame Russia? Props to them for fighting for what they wanted. The same way I imagine the Australian Aboriginals are partly to blame when they lost the war to the British when they invaded Australia. They should have fought harder if they wanted it.

They seem to have fought a little too hard, given that they ended up with regions where the majority does not consider themselves Ukrainian and wants to break away...
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Pezevenk

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Re: War
« Reply #243 on: February 21, 2022, 05:28:21 AM »
There seems to be a disparity between the public statements of the Ukrainian ministers and the general statements from Nato countries.

The Ukrainians are saying things like,  the likelyhood of a Russian invasion is low.  While Nato citing intelligence reporting that the order has already been given.

The military types are saying the Russians are waiting on favourable colder weather and frozen ground for the tanks and heavy machinery to not get bogged. 

I'm thinking all three are correct, and the Ukrainians know something about the ground conditions.

The correct move right now might be to sanction Russian oligarchs and sieze their overseas assets.

Do these military types also think it's a strategically good idea to just sit there and postpone the invasion until the enemy gets prepared?
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It is not a scientific fact, it is a scientific fuck!
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Re: War
« Reply #244 on: February 21, 2022, 05:53:47 AM »
Han shot first?

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Crouton

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Re: War
« Reply #245 on: February 21, 2022, 06:30:17 AM »
As someone of Jewish Eastern European ancestry I can tell you that there was never any Ukraine in the past. Ukraine was always Russia and culturally it will always be Russia. Anyways Putin is not interested in invading Ukraine because if he did he would have done so already. It makes zero sense to invade a poor country and have responsibility of feeding millions of people, while Russia is struggling to feed their own population. You wanna invade rich countries and Ukraine under Russia will be an absolute burden to already bad Russian economy. Biden is an idiot and everything you hear on the news about Russia invading is fake. Biden simply wants to shift the attention out of how poorly he is performing unto something else, he wants  you to hate Russia rather then hating the fucking Democrats who ruined this country under Biden. The only thing Putin doesn't want is for Ukraine to join NATO and have NATO troops alongside Russian border, can you blame him?

1. Then why the buildup?
2. You realize nato nations already border russia, yes?  Including the current head of Nato, Norway.

Norway is the head of nato?

Man we should have never made winning the winter Olympics a condition for leadership. I don't know what we were thinking with that clause.
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JJA

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Re: War
« Reply #246 on: February 21, 2022, 07:25:47 AM »
The only thing Putin doesn't want is for Ukraine to join NATO and have NATO troops alongside Russian border, can you blame him?

Yes I can blame him.  If he wasn't a murderous dictator intent on taking over other countries by force then maybe he wouldn't have to worry about NATO.

Poor bully has to deal with people who don't want to be bullied. I shed a tear.

Re: War
« Reply #247 on: February 21, 2022, 10:26:44 AM »
The only thing Putin doesn't want is for Ukraine to join NATO and have NATO troops alongside Russian border, can you blame him?

Yes I can blame him.  If he wasn't a murderous dictator intent on taking over other countries by force then maybe he wouldn't have to worry about NATO.

Poor bully has to deal with people who don't want to be bullied. I shed a tear.


Who exactly did he murder and what countries did he invade? Every country has its own interest and national security in mind. To say that there is nothing worry about NATO is ridiculous, only a stupid liberal like yourself can make such ignorant remark. How would you feel if Russian forces would line up on U.S. border, would you think its OK? This double standard really needs to go. America needs to start respecting other superpowers and recognize them as equal not treat them like second class or constantly test their patience.

If Ukraine acted right there would be no conflict to begin with. But when Ukraine bans Russian language and brings the Nazi Azov battalion its a problem. I'm really surprised that these so called American progressive liberals like JJA somehow see nothing wrong with right wing Ukrainian nationalism.
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Pezevenk

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Re: War
« Reply #248 on: February 21, 2022, 10:45:55 AM »
Now Putin recognized the separatist regions.
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Re: War
« Reply #249 on: February 21, 2022, 11:05:49 AM »
The Separatist regions of Donetsk and Lugansk are Russian speaking regions. Do you guys even know what Ukraine is? Ukraine cannot self govern because it was never a country. It was always either part of Russia, Austria Hungary and Poland. Crimea was part of Turkey then Russia. And right now Ukraine is a 51st state of the United States. 

Biden is gonna fail this just like he failed Afghanistan, its time for America to let it go.
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JJA

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Re: War
« Reply #250 on: February 21, 2022, 11:09:38 AM »
The only thing Putin doesn't want is for Ukraine to join NATO and have NATO troops alongside Russian border, can you blame him?

Yes I can blame him.  If he wasn't a murderous dictator intent on taking over other countries by force then maybe he wouldn't have to worry about NATO.

Poor bully has to deal with people who don't want to be bullied. I shed a tear.


Who exactly did he murder and what countries did he invade? Every country has its own interest and national security in mind. To say that there is nothing worry about NATO is ridiculous, only a stupid liberal like yourself can make such ignorant remark. How would you feel if Russian forces would line up on U.S. border, would you think its OK? This double standard really needs to go. America needs to start respecting other superpowers and recognize them as equal not treat them like second class or constantly test their patience.

If Ukraine acted right there would be no conflict to begin with. But when Ukraine bans Russian language and brings the Nazi Azov battalion its a problem. I'm really surprised that these so called American progressive liberals like JJA somehow see nothing wrong with right wing Ukrainian nationalism.

I don't even.

You're weird.

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Lorddave

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Re: War
« Reply #251 on: February 21, 2022, 11:43:56 AM »
The only thing Putin doesn't want is for Ukraine to join NATO and have NATO troops alongside Russian border, can you blame him?

Yes I can blame him.  If he wasn't a murderous dictator intent on taking over other countries by force then maybe he wouldn't have to worry about NATO.

Poor bully has to deal with people who don't want to be bullied. I shed a tear.


Who exactly did he murder and what countries did he invade? Every country has its own interest and national security in mind. To say that there is nothing worry about NATO is ridiculous, only a stupid liberal like yourself can make such ignorant remark. How would you feel if Russian forces would line up on U.S. border, would you think its OK? This double standard really needs to go. America needs to start respecting other superpowers and recognize them as equal not treat them like second class or constantly test their patience.

If Ukraine acted right there would be no conflict to begin with. But when Ukraine bans Russian language and brings the Nazi Azov battalion its a problem. I'm really surprised that these so called American progressive liberals like JJA somehow see nothing wrong with right wing Ukrainian nationalism.

Considering Russia would need to either said ships into international waters to do it or line up at the canadian/mexican border, neither of which was their country... I'd be pretty scared. 

But make no mistake, the Ukrainian government is corrupt and pretty shitty as I hear.  But Putin is organized, smart, and a dictator.  Which makes him far more dangerous.

Also, if Ukraine doesn't exist, why is it a recognized nation by the UN?
You have been ignored for common interest of mankind.

I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: War
« Reply #252 on: February 21, 2022, 11:51:55 AM »
Now Putin recognized the separatist regions.

What does it mean? I see people saying this is a violation of international law. That he is blaming Ukraine for the violence in Donbas.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

Re: War
« Reply #253 on: February 21, 2022, 12:41:40 PM »
Ok. This is getting a bit too convoluted so I’ll drop where we’ve gone off topic.  My fault, mainly.

Quote
Whoa!  Opinion polls and language curriculums!  Great justification for sending troops into another country and carving bits off it.  If only we had opinion polls for Afghanistan and Iraq, and I might have supported those wars.

What other way do you propose other than opinion polls to see what public opinion is on the matter of joining Russia? Is that not legitimate?

Also, uh, "language curriculums" are kind of an important subject for ethnic minorities, as is being allowed to speak their language in broadcasts, as is being allowed to use their language in governance where they are a majority.

Opinion polls are a legitimate way to see what the public wants.  Not a legitimate justification for a foreign government to force the outcome.   

And I’m afraid no language laws reach the bar of oppression to justify it either.  You’re not suggesting it played any part at all in Putin’s decision to annex the Crimea are you?

Quote
What you are actually saying here and what this rhetoric boils down to is that there should only be one acceptable sphere of influence that is enforced, that of the US and NATO. It's promoted for this reason exactly.

Wrong!  Completely and totally wrong.  Good job of missing the point of everything I’ve said.

Would you like to try again?

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Lorddave

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Re: War
« Reply #254 on: February 21, 2022, 02:03:39 PM »
Now Putin recognized the separatist regions.

What does it mean? I see people saying this is a violation of international law. That he is blaming Ukraine for the violence in Donbas.
https://www.npr.org/2022/02/21/1082146367/putin-ukraine-donetsk-luhansk

Long story short: There are areas where Rebels have been fighting since 2014 and they've held it.  So Putin has basically said "We, Russia, Recognizes these areas as independant from Ukraine".
Imagine if Mexico announced that Texas was now independant from the US.  And Texas was 75% mexican.

The end result is that Putin can basically be invited in like a vampire.

"I am not invading, I have been invited by the recognized leadership of this new country that I recognize and no one else."
You have been ignored for common interest of mankind.

I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

Re: War
« Reply #255 on: February 21, 2022, 02:23:25 PM »
Now Putin recognized the separatist regions.

What does it mean? I see people saying this is a violation of international law. That he is blaming Ukraine for the violence in Donbas.
https://www.npr.org/2022/02/21/1082146367/putin-ukraine-donetsk-luhansk

Long story short: There are areas where Rebels have been fighting since 2014 and they've held it.  So Putin has basically said "We, Russia, Recognizes these areas as independant from Ukraine".
Imagine if Mexico announced that Texas was now independant from the US.  And Texas was 75% mexican.

The end result is that Putin can basically be invited in like a vampire.

"I am not invading, I have been invited by the recognized leadership of this new country that I recognize and no one else."

And now he’s ordered troops to go in for “peacekeeping operations”. 

Not an invasion, of course. 

Shit.


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Space Cowgirl

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Re: War
« Reply #256 on: February 21, 2022, 02:29:02 PM »
Well this seems like a terrible development. Now Biden is sanctioning Russia.

I really hope all this bullshit settles down and there isn't war.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

Re: War
« Reply #257 on: February 21, 2022, 02:52:42 PM »
Well this seems like a terrible development. Now Biden is sanctioning Russia.

I really hope all this bullshit settles down and there isn't war.

Options to back down looking thin now.  This is where I find myself hoping he is the master strategist he thinks he is and not just a hyper dickhead about to send everything spiraling into shit.

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Crouton

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Re: War
« Reply #258 on: February 21, 2022, 03:15:15 PM »
Now Putin recognized the separatist regions.

What does it mean? I see people saying this is a violation of international law. That he is blaming Ukraine for the violence in Donbas.

He's technically correct. If Ukraine would just surrender and declare itself a vassal state of Russia then the violence would end.
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JJA

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Re: War
« Reply #259 on: February 21, 2022, 04:33:10 PM »
Well this seems like a terrible development. Now Biden is sanctioning Russia.

I really hope all this bullshit settles down and there isn't war.

I'd say Putin sending troops across the border into Ukraine is war.  Just a small one, for now.  I'm sure he plans to make it bigger.

Don't know what anyone can do about it without dangerously escalating it.  We will see if he can find that line and step over it.

If we are lucky the world will sanction the hell out of him and make this not worth it.  China is the wildcard there.

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Wolvaccine

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Re: War
« Reply #260 on: February 21, 2022, 04:56:42 PM »
China is the wildcard there.

Not really. China will take the opposing view on whatever The West says. It's how they operate. Also our dimwitted prime minister demanding China vocally oppose the Russian troop deployment will only cause China to dig in and stay silent or do the opposite. Aussies PM really is an ignorant dumbarse

Also China has its own interests regarding Tibet, Xinjiang and Taiwan and everything in or near the South China Sea. So taking land and expanding is kinda their thing

Quote from: sokarul
what website did you use to buy your wife? Did you choose Chinese over Russian because she can't open her eyes to see you?

What animal relates to your wife?

Know your place

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JJA

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Re: War
« Reply #261 on: February 21, 2022, 05:11:05 PM »
China is the wildcard there.

Not really. China will take the opposing view on whatever The West says. It's how they operate. Also our dimwitted prime minister demanding China vocally oppose the Russian troop deployment will only cause China to dig in and stay silent or do the opposite. Aussies PM really is an ignorant dumbarse

Also China has its own interests regarding Tibet, Xinjiang and Taiwan and everything in or near the South China Sea. So taking land and expanding is kinda their thing

China would love to do a little expansion and 'reclaiming' of their own, yeah.

What I wonder is will China throw in economically with Russia.  If the world isolates Russia with sanctions, China could step in and trade with them and set up a rival system to the current western dominated dollar based system.  Russia is small potatoes but China might use it as a way to kickstart forming their own economic bloc with others as well.

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Rayzor

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Re: War
« Reply #262 on: February 21, 2022, 05:12:45 PM »
The Separatist regions of Donetsk and Lugansk are Russian speaking regions. Do you guys even know what Ukraine is? Ukraine cannot self govern because it was never a country. It was always either part of Russia, Austria Hungary and Poland. Crimea was part of Turkey then Russia. And right now Ukraine is a 51st state of the United States. 

Biden is gonna fail this just like he failed Afghanistan, its time for America to let it go.

Mexico has a strong historical claim to California,  all the place names are Spanish,  lots of places within in California with majority Mexican population. 

It was stolen from Mexico by subterfuge and crooked dealing all those years ago, I say it's time for Mexico to take back what's rightfully theirs..


Don't get me started on the Irish claim to Boston... 
Stop gilding the pickle, you demisexual aromantic homoflexible snowflake.

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Crouton

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Re: War
« Reply #263 on: February 21, 2022, 05:15:34 PM »
Well this seems like a terrible development. Now Biden is sanctioning Russia.

I really hope all this bullshit settles down and there isn't war.

I'd say Putin sending troops across the border into Ukraine is war.  Just a small one, for now.  I'm sure he plans to make it bigger.

Don't know what anyone can do about it without dangerously escalating it.  We will see if he can find that line and step over it.

If we are lucky the world will sanction the hell out of him and make this not worth it.  China is the wildcard there.

They're marching troops into Ukraine.  I'd call that an invasion. 

The path to peace is clear.  We must keep ceding territory to Russia.  That strategy is bound to work sooner or later.
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Rayzor

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Re: War
« Reply #264 on: February 21, 2022, 05:17:22 PM »
There seems to be a disparity between the public statements of the Ukrainian ministers and the general statements from Nato countries.

The Ukrainians are saying things like,  the likelyhood of a Russian invasion is low.  While Nato citing intelligence reporting that the order has already been given.

The military types are saying the Russians are waiting on favourable colder weather and frozen ground for the tanks and heavy machinery to not get bogged. 

I'm thinking all three are correct, and the Ukrainians know something about the ground conditions.

The correct move right now might be to sanction Russian oligarchs and sieze their overseas assets.

Do these military types also think it's a strategically good idea to just sit there and postpone the invasion until the enemy gets prepared?

You missed the point.  The Russians even have a word for it, rasputitsa.   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rasputitsa

Some analysis to follow up.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/interactive/2022/ukraine-russia-invasion-geography-weather/
Stop gilding the pickle, you demisexual aromantic homoflexible snowflake.

Re: War
« Reply #265 on: February 21, 2022, 05:19:37 PM »
China is the wildcard there.

Not really. China will take the opposing view on whatever The West says. It's how they operate. Also our dimwitted prime minister demanding China vocally oppose the Russian troop deployment will only cause China to dig in and stay silent or do the opposite. Aussies PM really is an ignorant dumbarse

Also China has its own interests regarding Tibet, Xinjiang and Taiwan and everything in or near the South China Sea. So taking land and expanding is kinda their thing

China would love to do a little expansion and 'reclaiming' of their own, yeah.

What I wonder is will China throw in economically with Russia.  If the world isolates Russia with sanctions, China could step in and trade with them and set up a rival system to the current western dominated dollar based system.  Russia is small potatoes but China might use it as a way to kickstart forming their own economic bloc with others as well.


Ooooof course theyll partner up.
The enemy of my enemey is my friend.
They both want to reclaim their "lost" territories.
They both rule in similar manner.
If one pushes the other will take opportunity to push.
Stretch the enemys resources thin.
Usa will have fights on two fronts.

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Crouton

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Re: War
« Reply #266 on: February 21, 2022, 05:40:23 PM »
China is the wildcard there.

Not really. China will take the opposing view on whatever The West says. It's how they operate. Also our dimwitted prime minister demanding China vocally oppose the Russian troop deployment will only cause China to dig in and stay silent or do the opposite. Aussies PM really is an ignorant dumbarse

Also China has its own interests regarding Tibet, Xinjiang and Taiwan and everything in or near the South China Sea. So taking land and expanding is kinda their thing

China would love to do a little expansion and 'reclaiming' of their own, yeah.

What I wonder is will China throw in economically with Russia.  If the world isolates Russia with sanctions, China could step in and trade with them and set up a rival system to the current western dominated dollar based system.  Russia is small potatoes but China might use it as a way to kickstart forming their own economic bloc with others as well.


Ooooof course theyll partner up.
The enemy of my enemey is my friend.
They both want to reclaim their "lost" territories.
They both rule in similar manner.
If one pushes the other will take opportunity to push.
Stretch the enemys resources thin.
Usa will have fights on two fronts.

There's no indication that the US is going to commit troops to Ukraine.  Biden has all but ruled that out.
Intelligentia et magnanimitas vincvnt violentiam et desperationem.
The truth behind NASA's budget

Re: War
« Reply #267 on: February 21, 2022, 05:51:40 PM »
The only reason UN recognized Ukraine and all other former Soviet republics is simply to weaken Russia, everything that U.S. and EU  is doing in Ukraine has nothing to do with Ukraine or help Ukrainian people, this is all designed to make Russia weak, there is no other reason for Western involvement. Do you guys even know why there are rebels in Eastern Ukraine in the first place? Because CIA controlled Ukraine makes life for Russian speaking people hellish. Ukraine openly celebrates former Nazi heroes like Stephen Bandera and then expect Russians do stand by and do what exactly? Everything Ukraine has done since 2014 is a spit in a Russian face, they deface WWII monuments and openly call for ethnic cleansing and  you wonder why people in East Ukraine are rebelling?

And When America invades other countries they say same thing Putin does, "we are here cause people want us here". Bush said this in Iraq, Johnson said this in Vietnam. So before calling out Putin, know your own damn government.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2022, 05:53:33 PM by New Earth »
JJA voted for Pedro

Re: War
« Reply #268 on: February 21, 2022, 05:52:01 PM »
There seems to be a disparity between the public statements of the Ukrainian ministers and the general statements from Nato countries.

The Ukrainians are saying things like,  the likelyhood of a Russian invasion is low.  While Nato citing intelligence reporting that the order has already been given.

The military types are saying the Russians are waiting on favourable colder weather and frozen ground for the tanks and heavy machinery to not get bogged. 

I'm thinking all three are correct, and the Ukrainians know something about the ground conditions.

The correct move right now might be to sanction Russian oligarchs and sieze their overseas assets.

Do these military types also think it's a strategically good idea to just sit there and postpone the invasion until the enemy gets prepared?

You missed the point.  The Russians even have a word for it, rasputitsa.   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rasputitsa

Some analysis to follow up.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/interactive/2022/ukraine-russia-invasion-geography-weather/

But this is russia pushing out 2022 vs germany pushing in 1940s

Re: War
« Reply #269 on: February 21, 2022, 05:53:46 PM »
China is the wildcard there.

Not really. China will take the opposing view on whatever The West says. It's how they operate. Also our dimwitted prime minister demanding China vocally oppose the Russian troop deployment will only cause China to dig in and stay silent or do the opposite. Aussies PM really is an ignorant dumbarse

Also China has its own interests regarding Tibet, Xinjiang and Taiwan and everything in or near the South China Sea. So taking land and expanding is kinda their thing

China would love to do a little expansion and 'reclaiming' of their own, yeah.

What I wonder is will China throw in economically with Russia.  If the world isolates Russia with sanctions, China could step in and trade with them and set up a rival system to the current western dominated dollar based system.  Russia is small potatoes but China might use it as a way to kickstart forming their own economic bloc with others as well.


Ooooof course theyll partner up.
The enemy of my enemey is my friend.
They both want to reclaim their "lost" territories.
They both rule in similar manner.
If one pushes the other will take opportunity to push.
Stretch the enemys resources thin.
Usa will have fights on two fronts.

There's no indication that the US is going to commit troops to Ukraine.  Biden has all but ruled that out.

At what point do western alliance stop an agressor like china vs south china sea or russia crimea georgia and parallel that with germany poland?

Family guy:   We were invited!