For the discussion of the improvement of the forums

+1 

Q&A - I found this:

"**Update 2014.07.17**
Flat Earth Q&A's format is shifting a bit. To limit the number of debates arising in our Q&A forum, questions will only be answered by flat-earthers or those providing genuine flat-earth responses. Asking questions is still open for anyone, but starting debates, using questions to start debates, or posting disingenuously will be considered low content / off-topic posting and will be treated as such."

This is not being enforced.

And I suggest modifying it further.

Only FE adherents should be allowed to answer any question posed.

No one else should be allowed to answer the questions posed.

It is absolutely being enforced. It is one of the most enforced rules on this entire forum. As long as the RE gives a proper answer it is fine, but I move rule breaking posts out of that forum almost every day. I've moved a few of yours out of that forum for breaking the rules.

Quote from: totallackey on February 17, 2020, 04:29:33 AM

Q&A - I found this:

"**Update 2014.07.17**
Flat Earth Q&A's format is shifting a bit. To limit the number of debates arising in our Q&A forum, questions will only be answered by flat-earthers or those providing genuine flat-earth responses. Asking questions is still open for anyone, but starting debates, using questions to start debates, or posting disingenuously will be considered low content / off-topic posting and will be treated as such."

This is not being enforced.

And I suggest modifying it further.

Only FE adherents should be allowed to answer any question posed.

No one else should be allowed to answer the questions posed.

It is absolutely being enforced. It is one of the most enforced rules on this entire forum. As long as the RE gives a proper answer it is fine, but I move rule breaking posts out of that forum almost every day. I've moved a few of yours out of that forum for breaking the rules.

I appreciate the difficult work involved in being a mod/admin of the forum, especially this one given the contentious subject matter...

But here:https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=84318.msg2225779#msg2225779

And this post:

Quote

Although the world is not a sphere, the sun moves from north to south and south to north during the year to create the seasons.

Quote

The (roughly) circular path of the sun about the pole expands and contracts as the seasons progress.

Really...and what exactly causes that to happen then according to your theories?  You must know why the circular path of the Sun above the flat Earth expands and contracts with the seasons surely.

Easy to claim it... not so easy (or so it would seem) to explain it!

One sure way to stop a discussion in its tracks it seems.... ask FE believers to explain the cause behind any of their claims!

Certainly doesn't look like a an FE answer to a question.

There are not enough FE moderators on this site.

Give Sandokhan his moderator duties back, please.

I addressed that poster in that very thread. And I did so publicly so it would be seen by more than just the one poster that was misusing Q&A. And I sent him a warning through the actual forum warning system.

Solarwind this is Q&A. If you don't like the "A" you are welcome to start a thread in Debate for further discussion.

So yes, the Q&A board is strictly monitored and moderated. I feel like there are a lot of times where people just aren't aware that warnings or bans are being issued, and that lack of awareness leads to assuming nothing has been done. But a warning is between the person being reprimanded and the forum staff, not whoever else happens to be reading along.

Further, Ski (a moderator) was answering his follow up questions, likely to illustrate the ignorance of that particular poster with respect to the model being discussed. And that portion of dialog was certainly effective in demonstrating exactly that.

I'm not saying we don't ever miss things. But I don't think the example you chose is indicative of poor and/or insufficient moderation.

Q&A is so strictly moderated that most of the RE posts that end up there are by mistake. People use "New Posts" and do not know which forum the posts are in. Most of the time I'll just move the post to angry ranting because an honest mistake is not something I think people should be punished for. Occasionally I will do what Boydster did, and write out a warning in the thread so the person knows where they're at and why they're breaking the rules.

Q&A is so strictly moderated that most of the RE posts that end up there are by mistake. People use "New Posts" and do not know which forum the posts are in. Most of the time I'll just move the post to angry ranting because an honest mistake is not something I think people should be punished for. Occasionally I will do what Boydster did, and write out a warning in the thread so the person knows where they're at and why they're breaking the rules.

I imagine a lot of people access the forum through their mobile... Is it possible to update the mobile version to show up the top where you are at like in the desktop version?

Or put a light skin in the Q&A board? (doesn't have to be as heavy as complete nonsense)

That could save moderation work in the long term

It would be cool if Q&A had its own theme. That's something I don't have access to, so JD would have to deal with it.

I addressed that poster in that very thread. And I did so publicly so it would be seen by more than just the one poster that was misusing Q&A. And I sent him a warning through the actual forum warning system.

Quote from: boydster on December 29, 2019, 06:17:03 AM

Solarwind this is Q&A. If you don't like the "A" you are welcome to start a thread in Debate for further discussion.

So yes, the Q&A board is strictly monitored and moderated. I feel like there are a lot of times where people just aren't aware that warnings or bans are being issued, and that lack of awareness leads to assuming nothing has been done. But a warning is between the person being reprimanded and the forum staff, not whoever else happens to be reading along.

Further, Ski (a moderator) was answering his follow up questions, likely to illustrate the ignorance of that particular poster with respect to the model being discussed. And that portion of dialog was certainly effective in demonstrating exactly that.

I'm not saying we don't ever miss things. But I don't think the example you chose is indicative of poor and/or insufficient moderation.

Q&A is so strictly moderated that most of the RE posts that end up there are by mistake. People use "New Posts" and do not know which forum the posts are in. Most of the time I'll just move the post to angry ranting because an honest mistake is not something I think people should be punished for. Occasionally I will do what Boydster did, and write out a warning in the thread so the person knows where they're at and why they're breaking the rules.

boydster and SCG, thank you for your responses.

Like I wrote, I realize the job of admin/mod can be very difficult and I am not particularly ragging on anyone concerning the issue.

I would rather see the posts in FE Q&A not comporting to the guidelines simply split and moved off.

I am not asking to know whether someone in particular gets warned or banned, as that would be NOMB.

You people do good work, but I still believe Sandokhan should get his mod status back, as FET adherents seem to get the short end of the stick. I realize the definition of seem is purely subjective and is biased, but that is my view of the matter.

Sandokhan abused his position when he was a mod. Tom Bishop was mistakenly made a mod back when Daniel was trying to give him access to Believer's and instead of waiting for Daniel to figure out how to fix the mistake, he abused his access to the mod cp. We don't need more mods. It's not a difficult job, it's not hard to split posts. Q&A is the easiest to moderate because there's no gray area. Almost everything is against the rules.

What we need is to figure out, and agree upon, how and what the separate forums should be for. Personally, I think Q&A is pretty useless because when someone has a real question no one answers it, or they answer with insults and bullshit meant to start an argument. I used to think a better FAQ would solve some of these problems, but we never get very far on that either.

No.

The six of us came back here as mods (James, Tom, John, Ichimaru Gin], Ski and myself).

I never used the mods powers either on John's forum or here, with one exception.

If you well remember, there was a thread opened in the lounge which included only insults, nothing else. It reached page 25 or something. Nothing but insults. I repeatedly wrote to the users to scale down their responses, it was to no avail. So I deleted the entire thread, and well I did.

Why didn't Daniel trust me, my judgement on that matter? It is thanks in part to me that this forum had incredible stats in 2008-2012. But no one, not even John, mentioned this fact to nobody.

I want the mod status, without the ability to delete messages of course, only to issue warnings and enforce bans.

This forum is losing its appeal thanks to jb and r: physicists and engineers came here to find new results, to discuss matters at a very high level.

Someone has to rein in both jb and r, otherwise you will lose this forum.

Then the issue turns out whether or not Sandokhan's becoming a mod again, from the common point of we had a problem of r and jb.

Woohooo! Well done. Should I be proud of myself for being cautious about this? You may not do this, but I may. 

No, sandokhan. Tom was accidentally made a mod back in 2007. He was not one of the ones modded from John's forum.

It was decided that Tom's abuse of his suspiciously acquired mod powers was too much to let continue.  His account was deleted, but he was given the option of rejoining the society as a regular member.

There's also a thread in the mod forum about all this ancient history. The thread about your abuse of the mod cp is still there, as well. 

In 2010 we came back here, as mods, that is what I am talking about, not what occurred back in 2007.

I only used the mod powers once, the event is well explained in my previous message, no abuse (as you are trying to convey to your readers); I deleted a single thread, useless to everyone, nothing else but insults, yet here you are implying something else happened, which is strange.

What else but a formidable abuse on your and the RE mods part is the fact that you have allowed jb and r to practically take over this forum? You even welcomed back r with songs and poems, on top of the rab's bar and grill thread. Is this not a clear abuse of the rules which are clearly stipulated in the forum rules section? To let both jb and r roam free and intoxicate this forum with a constant stream of trolling? Is this not much worse than my deletion of a single thread which nobody ever cared about?

The other FE are very sick and tired of what is going on here, we will no longer engage in debates which have become pointless.

Your memory is seriously flawed.

I have no idea what rules you think were broken in the rab bar and grill thread. He was locked in AR for a couple weeks, and that thread was a joke thread. There aren't any rules against a spammy thread in AR.

In the line of my work, where I have to remember each and every page of my AFET, in addition to thousands of bibliographical references, you need a very good memory.

No rules broken you say. Yet, these users you are protecting at all costs, have brought this entire forum to a standstill, no one can post anything in the upper forums, jb and r are there to make sure nothing is left of any sensible and pertaining arguments. To achieve such a feat they use trolling and fisking, yet you are not aware of any rules that have been broken. Are you aware of the fact that under your watch the stats have been going down, while you look the other way, allowing these two users to mess up the entire purpose of this forum?

The minute you put an end to the trolling, the stats will be going up, we have a chance to start again, on our terms this time around. Yet, you are telling us that no more mods are needed. FE mods that is, since you have by your side two RE mods who are watching this entire situation with glee, they can't believe what is going on.

Then, we the FE are telling you this: no more answers, debates from us, not anymore. You try and debate jb and r for a change, see how that works out for you.

The "stats" for forums in general are going down. Most people have moved to corporate owned social media.

If you wish to be free of jackblack and rab, you should put them on ignore. You should post as if they don't exist.

You still don't understand what is going on here. The stats have been going down ever since jb and r have been allowed to destroy the fabric of this forum. They should have been banned immediately and each and every one of their messages removed to the section which is visible only to the admin/mods.

It is very clear to us, the FE, that you are protecting these users at all costs, there are no plans in the near future, on your part, to deal with them.

I am very much opposed to just permabanning anyone simply because they regularly butt heads with the FE. It sets a bad precedent. There is an entire forum where they aren’t allowed to post at all. There is another forum where they can post but with very strict rules that prevent them from posting there almost entirely. There are 2 boards, General and Debate, where discussion and debate between FE and RE are not only expected, but encouraged.

The Believers forum is where discussion and debate among FE should be taking place. It’s being used to create monolithic silos. And that isn’t a problem in and of itself, but the reluctance of FE believers to interact and collaborate with each other in the forum that exists specifically to enable exactly that kind of thing seems like an opportunity just waiting to be taken advantage of. And... there’s no JB or rab to get in the way of constructive conversation there.

We can’t make the entire site like the Q&A and Believers sections are today. And I’m concerned that if we just start banning people that disagree, however verbose and committed they may be, that is where we will end up. That doesn’t seem like it will benefit anyone.

I'm happy to theme the forum differently. I've been thinking of doing some site wide re-theming anyways, so its not out of the way. We need to move out of our cms.

Banning folks doesn't work. We learned that with the whole TFES revolution thing. It just ends up creating endless alt accounts that would cost money out of my pocket (or yours if you want to donate) to ensure they are legitimate via 2 factor. This wouldn't even catch folks with two phones, etc.

We are not protecting those users. We are protecting free and open debate. They are making shit arguments often, and it should be easy enough to shoot them down. We can't Eric Dupay this and ban anyone that disagrees with us, even if they did nothing wrong; that's against the reason Daniel started this society, and why I choose to serve here. I don't like their posting style anymore than you; its simply taking every sentence, quoting it, and providing no evidence for their disagreement. It's tolerated - not protected - because its weak and we know intelligent folks will see it for what it is.

I'm open to reasonable solutions to the problem. Banning them for arguing poorly is not one of them.

I'm even willing to shell out cash if the solution costs something.

I want to make it clear that I am interested in protecting flat earth interests - yours and Toms and others. I'm not willing to sacrifice though what makes us who we are as a society to do this. I will protect you at all costs less than that.

I'm also open to thoughts on making Tom a mod provided he follows the rules. He has had a shaky past with this though, so I'd like to have a conversation around this - not a private message dictating that you and Tom need to be made mods OR ELSE. I never give power to those who want it.

Would their posting style be considered contentless posting?

Point being, we can change the rules. They just have to be reasonable and known, and I have no qualms with letting the flatists here decide what they should be, within reason.

Would their posting style be considered contentless posting?

Point being, we can change the rules. They just have to be reasonable and known, and I have no qualms with letting the flatists here decide what they should be, within reason.

This is the best idea so far: consider their messages as contentless posting. As soon as jb and r post something in the upper forums in their usual style, trying to bamboozle their readers, their messages would be moved immediately to CN (a single thread created especially for these two). You might even contemplate to have them post only in the CN/AR. If they try to create alts we will of course recognize the style and their accounts would be banned at once.

Consider these facts. No matter what we do, to what lengths we go to appease the obnoxious and rude behaviour of jb and r, they will never be satisfied. They are here only to deny, to act as tremendous disruptive elements for the FES. And in order to achieve these  goals they paper the threads with useless, "providing no evidence for their" arguments, accompanied by heavy-duty fisking. Why should we be on the receiving end of such conduct?

Remove their nonsense/contentless posting to CN. Best idea.

We are protecting free and open debate.

Sure, but using contentless posting on their part is no longer free and open debate, but a devious undertaking to take down this forum, which they have already achieved.


You have to offer him / them something so that both it should solve y/our problem and make them happy. therefore, it would be useful to reorganize a separate forum section where only globalist members  can post topics and Q&A section or another one with more stricky moderated.

This approach would make things much worse for us: imagine to allow them to post unabated, using the same contentless style of posting on their "separate forum". Their messages, devious as they are, must be removed immediately to CN, John's idea sounds best.

I thought it would take their time and remains less time trolling and fisting while they linger with it. I don't believe John said this sincerely or sober. As a result, we must consider ropes and puppets. Neither we should ask anything that John can not do, nor he should promise that he can not keep it. He can tell he can but actually he can't do, all we know why. Oh facts, facts and even more facts.

John is in a cave. Alex DeSouza was both serious and sober; thank you wise as always.

the reason Daniel started this society

You might want to let Daniel know that he no longer has a functional forum at his disposal. We the FE can no longer answer pertinent questions in the Q&A section. We can no longer answer to meaningful inquiries in FEG. Interesting and revealing debates in FED are a thing of the past.

There are 2 boards, General and Debate, where discussion and debate between FE and RE are not only expected, but encouraged.

There are no more discussions and debates, not anything resembling the splendid threads of the past:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=27426.0

Can you imagine what would have happened had jb and r been allowed to post in that wonderful thread?

I never give power to those who want it.

But you are fully enjoying the privileges which come with this power: the RE are very careful, using velvet gloves, not to antagonize you or to anger you in any way, since they know you'll ban them right away if you so want.

You see John, we the other FE want to have the same privileges as you do; or are you saying that only you have qualified so far in earning them?

They are making shit arguments often, and it should be easy enough to shoot them down.

Sure. But then, they resort to trolling and contentless posting to dodge the irrefutable arguments, all of this of course happening under the watch of the admin/mods.

It's tolerated - not protected - because its weak and we know intelligent folks will see it for what it is.

No problem, the intelligent viewers will be able to discern right away the truth from falsity, but you are missing the most important part: we the FE are no longer willing to spend our time, and much effort, to reach page 20 of some thread while the rules are not being applied in our favor.

Lots of words

You skipped over the part where I said the following:

The Believers forum is where discussion and debate among FE should be taking place. It’s being used to create monolithic silos. And that isn’t a problem in and of itself, but the reluctance of FE believers to interact and collaborate with each other in the forum that exists specifically to enable exactly that kind of thing seems like an opportunity just waiting to be taken advantage of. And... there’s no JB or rab to get in the way of constructive conversation there.

And despite your insistence otherwise, there are threads in Debate and General that are informative. Frequently when you find yourself participating in those boards, you disagree with someone that you happen to be interacting with in a given thread. That happens in conversation between normal people all the time. But when it happens in a conversation that you are participating in, you are not automatically the arbiter of truth with regard to whose argument is better and/or correct, and someone spending time to point out where they differ with you is not grounds for a ban (nor should it be).

but the reluctance of FE believers to interact and collaborate with each other in the forum that exists specifically to enable exactly that kind of thing seems like an opportunity just waiting to be taken advantage of.

None of the other FE, believe it or not, has ever come to my aid, to fully profit from the unbeatable arguments and proofs I have always provided. Imagine this, to have now a single formula (global Sagnac) which proves directly that the Earth is stationary. Complete silence from the other FE. They have to gather the courage to admit that my model is superior to either the UA/infinite earth models, and it seems they will never acknowledge it. That is why we are a house divided.


Is this what you want, to have us debate each other here, while we let your proteges, rabinoz and jackblack to wreak havoc in the upper forums?

You have intervened on behalf of rabinoz several times, most notably you had the audacity to inform me how a rope should be stretched between two boats, and you caused humblescientist, a FE mind you, to give up and no longer post on this forum.

there are threads in Debate and General that are informative.

Not while you have been mod around here; we the FE are no longer allowed to make the debates fun and interesting and revealing, we are too busy to deal with jb and r's fisking and trolling.

Not anything resembling the magnificient threads of the past.

You no longer have anything here but a run-down forum, you are most obviously lacking our input, our expertise, our capacity to see solutions where most notice none, all of this the fault of the current team of admin/RE mods who have chosen to tacitly participate in the destruction.

But when it happens in a conversation that you are participating in, you are not automatically the arbiter of truth with regard to whose argument is better and/or correct, and someone spending time to point out where they differ with you is not grounds for a ban (nor should it be).


And when the RE use blatant contentless posting and trolling right under your nose, is that "spending time to point out something"? No, it is not.

Have you just revealed your true purpose here? To make sure that jb and r are allowed to destroy the fabric of this forum? If not, why are you constantly ignoring what we are debating here right now, the contentless posting of jb and r which should be moved to CN?

We, the FE, no longer doubt this.

The truth is reached by definite proofs and formulas: when your proteges respond with contentless posting (John's own formulation, not mine), what are we supposed to do, if you, the very mods, look the other way, and laugh in our faces?

Yes, the properties of an ideal rope. A perfect example of you asserting you are right about something that you quite simply and demonstrably are not. Thanks for bringing it up.

I spend more time calling RE out on bad arguments than I do FE. Believe it or not, you are wrong sometimes, and you should not get upset when it is pointed out, any more so than anyone else should get upset when mistaken. Instead, your arrogance gets in the way and you resort to reporting others for posting things you don't like while simultaneously gish-galloping the thread. And all of that is secondary to the fact that you actually have an entire board to interact with other people actively seeking to work out FE, yet it never gets used for interaction.

I don't question your dedication to FE. It is clearly something you are passionate about and spend a lot of time thinking about. But you have to get over this perception that everything you say should be accepted, never questioned, never challenged, and those that would oppose you should be banned.

I spoke to Sandokhan about this issue a few weeks ago and I feel that his points are valid enough that I'm not really too interested in the debate, and don't plan on contributing to it much either in the current state of affairs. There has to be some sort of balance between banning discussion and allowing productive discussion.

I think the issue is somehow related to the free-for-all nature of the forums, where any FE is  expected to debate FE 24/7, regardless of whether we asked to participate in the debate or not. Anyone and their mother can sign up and repeatedly spam to prove this, call people liars, or shout that a coincidence or illusion did it ad infinitum. No one really wants to debate randomly against the public. That is a total trash debate.

Go to a forum like http://www.astrologersforum.com/

Do you see any "Debate Astrology" forums? No. That would be a total disaster. If there is a debate it would be a special event with a YouTube or forum discussion with Skeptics Magazine or something. The purpose of that forum and similar forums is actually about understanding and furthering Astrology, and nothing like what is allowed here.

I don't really see a problem with cutting out random, aimless debate which this forum invites the public to direct randomly at FE. This often results in vitrol and resentment. Instead, we should facilitate something more organized. Does anyone else see a problem with that?