Your thoughts on Elon musk?

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Heiwa

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #360 on: August 01, 2022, 07:01:34 AM »
My thoughts on Elon Musk (topic) is on my website since many years. Lone Skum is just a joke.

Just copy and paste from your website here what makes you think Ariane Space is wrong about what they've designed and built.
No, it is better you copy and paste from my website what makes you think is wrong.

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Stash

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #361 on: August 01, 2022, 10:43:48 AM »
My thoughts on Elon Musk (topic) is on my website since many years. Lone Skum is just a joke.

Just copy and paste from your website here what makes you think Ariane Space is wrong about what they've designed and built.
No, it is better you copy and paste from my website what makes you think is wrong.

What makes you think Ariane Space is wrong about what they've designed and built? Or did you design and build the Ariane 5?

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Heiwa

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #362 on: August 01, 2022, 11:00:04 AM »
My thoughts on Elon Musk (topic) is on my website since many years. Lone Skum is just a joke.

Just copy and paste from your website here what makes you think Ariane Space is wrong about what they've designed and built.
No, it is better you copy and paste from my website what makes you think is wrong.

What makes you think Ariane Space is wrong about what they've designed and built? Or did you design and build the Ariane 5?
I just think solid fuel is best. Only NASA believes in crazy liquid hydrogen and oxygene.

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Stash

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #363 on: August 01, 2022, 11:47:50 AM »
My thoughts on Elon Musk (topic) is on my website since many years. Lone Skum is just a joke.

Just copy and paste from your website here what makes you think Ariane Space is wrong about what they've designed and built.
No, it is better you copy and paste from my website what makes you think is wrong.

What makes you think Ariane Space is wrong about what they've designed and built? Or did you design and build the Ariane 5?
I just think solid fuel is best. Only NASA believes in crazy liquid hydrogen and oxygene.

You deciding what you think is best is entirely irrelevant to reality. And no, not only does NASA use liquid fuel, so does Ariane Space. They don't share what YOU, a lone conspiracy theorist with zero expertise in space engineering, think is best.

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MaNaeSWolf

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #364 on: August 01, 2022, 12:19:47 PM »
I just think solid fuel is best. Only NASA believes in crazy liquid hydrogen and oxygene.
And by NASA you mean ESA, Roscosmos, CCP and everyone else. Although NASA does have the most history with Hydrogen, Ariane 5's core stage is hydrogen and oxygen . . . You really should learn something about these rockets that you supposedly have shares in.

ICBM are mostly solids because they are easy to store with no maintenance. Most rockets with solid stages share heritage with some ICBM.
The Minotaur IV is the biggest rocket that is all solids that I can think of, its also American, expensive and does not put a lot in orbit.

If you move fast enough, everything appears flat

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Heiwa

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #365 on: August 01, 2022, 12:28:43 PM »
I just think solid fuel is best. Only NASA believes in crazy liquid hydrogen and oxygene.
And by NASA you mean ESA, Roscosmos, CCP and everyone else. Although NASA does have the most history with Hydrogen, Ariane 5's core stage is hydrogen and oxygen . . . You really should learn something about these rockets that you supposedly have shares in.

ICBM are mostly solids because they are easy to store with no maintenance. Most rockets with solid stages share heritage with some ICBM.
The Minotaur IV is the biggest rocket that is all solids that I can think of, its also American, expensive and does not put a lot in orbit.
Well, the Saturn 5 liquid fuel rockets were just balloons full of helium taking off to impress/fool the TV audience. NASA got away with it and Elon Musk just copies the nonsense with his SpaceX shit flying nowhere.

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MaNaeSWolf

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #366 on: August 01, 2022, 12:37:32 PM »
Well, the Saturn 5 liquid fuel rockets were just balloons full of helium taking off to impress/fool the TV audience. NASA got away with it and Elon Musk just copies the nonsense with his SpaceX shit flying nowhere.
You really pivot quickly.
You clearly dont know the first thing about rockets. You dont know how the very ESA rockets that you like so much are made, or how they work.
I very much doubt you know the first thing about SaturnV or SpaceX.
If you move fast enough, everything appears flat

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JackBlack

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #367 on: August 01, 2022, 03:14:29 PM »
I showed you the source with one of the Chief SpaceX engineers presenting that information.
A source with incorrect numbers for F9.

But its fairly obvious that a FH returning to down range will have more capacity than returning to launch site.
And as I said, that would require moving the drone ship (or both depending on the direction) to a different ocean.

Define what this means. Because its not oversized for reuse.
According to your prior claim it certainly is oversized for reuse as well. Remember you claimed the majority were less than 5 t, which is much less than the ~16 t for LEO.
I would define it where the actual payload is less than 90% of the capacity.

An AtlasV
Is from a different company, significantly complicating the comparison.

You have additional issues that for every rocket you reuse, you dont need to build an additonal booster.
This means lower fixed cost, which adds to the picture.
For a model of reuse.
For a model of disposable, that would not be part of the fixed costs.

Your ignoring that SpaceX can launch 60+ rockets
Another hypothetical "can"?
Rather than what they have actually done?
in 2021, their best total year, they launched 31 rockets. Roughly half of your claim of 60+.
In 2022, so far they have launched 33, with more planned, noting that several of those planned have been delayed from prior years, and don't have definitive dates.

Hydrogen means you cant use certain materials that could be used for other fuels. Its not a cold problem, its a Hydrogen problem.
Almost all launches that are held during countdown for hydrolox rockets are due to Hydrogen leaks.
And you have similar issues of leaks, even those causing explosions:
https://spacenews.com/spacex-narrows-down-cause-of-falcon-9-pad-explosion/

You have very badly misunderstood what I was saying here.
Or have you very badly stated what you meant to say?

According to all other rockets given as examples, it would cost more.
Again, how much would a theoretical smaller rocket cost?
One more appropriately sized for the payloads?

Lets look at what a reusable factory needs to produce a year vs a disposable for 10 launches a year
And don't forget what is needed for the refurbishment either, and all the additional components required for landing.

You are acting like reuse needs nothing extra so it is just a case of make the booster once and you can then just use it as many times as you want with no additional costs.

Reusability depends on a high flight rate. This model falls apart if you only fly a few times a year
So imagine how much worse off SpaceX would be if they weren't continually launching starlink or other useless space junk?

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JackBlack

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #368 on: August 01, 2022, 03:17:19 PM »
Well, the Saturn 5 liquid fuel rockets were just balloons full of helium taking off to impress/fool the TV audience. NASA got away with it and Elon Musk just copies the nonsense with his SpaceX shit flying nowhere.
So what was providing all the fire?
It certainly didn't look like a helium filled balloon floating away.

So it seems like you are the fool here.

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markjo

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #369 on: August 01, 2022, 05:53:09 PM »
Define what this means. Because its not oversized for reuse.
According to your prior claim it certainly is oversized for reuse as well. Remember you claimed the majority were less than 5 t, which is much less than the ~16 t for LEO.
Here is a list of F9 and FH launches with payload masses.  You decide if the majority of the boosters were oversized.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Falcon_9_and_Falcon_Heavy_launches#2010_to_2019

I would define it where the actual payload is less than 90% of the capacity.
Have you checked with any other medium and heavy lift satellite launchers to see how many of their rockets are oversized for their payloads?  In fact, have you checked with any of the other satellite launch providers for their price/kg to orbit?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Heiwa

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #370 on: August 01, 2022, 06:43:30 PM »
Well, the Saturn 5 liquid fuel rockets were just balloons full of helium taking off to impress/fool the TV audience. NASA got away with it and Elon Musk just copies the nonsense with his SpaceX shit flying nowhere.
You really pivot quickly.
You clearly dont know the first thing about rockets. You dont know how the very ESA rockets that you like so much are made, or how they work.
I very much doubt you know the first thing about SaturnV or SpaceX.
But how could a Saturn 5 rocket lift off at all? The ones I have seen on film looked like balloons flying away and disappearing in the sky with a smoke generator attached to the bottom à la Stanley Kubrick.
Elon Musk uses the same tricks with his rockets landing on barges far away out a sea.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2022, 06:49:09 PM by Heiwa »

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markjo

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #371 on: August 01, 2022, 07:10:30 PM »
But how could a Saturn 5 rocket lift off at all?
Pretty much the same way that an Ariane 5 lifts off; more thrust than weight.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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MaNaeSWolf

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #372 on: August 01, 2022, 08:32:33 PM »
At this point, Black Jack I think you are just being argumentitive vs actually having an issue with the argument itself.

I mean, do you really think 4 legs, 4 fins, some RCS thrusters and a bit of fuel costs more than 10 rocket boosters and 90 engines? They have multiple boosters with more than 10 flights now.
Quote
And don't forget what is needed for the refurbishment either, and all the additional components required for landing.
Do you really think this, or are you just argueing for the sake of it?

If you have actual points you want to continue discussing, let me know. But the discussion is overly fractured now.

Quote
But how could a Saturn 5 rocket lift off at all? The ones I have seen on film looked like balloons flying away and disappearing in the sky with a smoke generator attached to the bottom à la Stanley Kubrick.
Elon Musk uses the same tricks with his rockets landing on barges far away out a sea.
Here is a challenge for you Heiwa, seeing that you like those.
How big a balloon do you need to lift 200 000kg's at 3g's of acceleration?
If you move fast enough, everything appears flat

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JackBlack

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #373 on: August 02, 2022, 12:06:14 AM »
But how could a Saturn 5 rocket lift off at all?
By using a rocket, projecting a lot of hot gases at high velocity out the base.

Just what do you think is the problem?
That it lifted up slowly due to how heavy it was compared to the thrust it was producing, instead of acting like a toy that rapidly accelerates?


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Bullwinkle

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #374 on: August 02, 2022, 12:28:46 AM »

But how could a Saturn 5 rocket lift off at all?

NASA lights a fire and blows some smoke then switches off gravity to allow the paper mache prop to levitate into space. Then NASA switches gravity back on before anyone notices.  You're awesome, buddy.

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Heiwa

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #375 on: August 02, 2022, 04:44:23 AM »

But how could a Saturn 5 rocket lift off at all?

NASA lights a fire and blows some smoke then switches off gravity to allow the paper mache prop to levitate into space. Then NASA switches gravity back on before anyone notices.  You're awesome, buddy.
I know. NASA balloon spaceships lifting off with smoke generators at the bottom live on TV are impressive.

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markjo

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #376 on: August 02, 2022, 01:59:01 PM »
I know. NASA balloon spaceships lifting off with smoke generators at the bottom live on TV are impressive.
Actually, the big cloud during a Saturn V lift off isn't smoke.  Most of it is actually steam from the water based sound suppression system.
https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/shuttle/launch/sound-suppression-system.html

If you look at liquid fuel rockets in flight, you will generally see very little smoke.  It's the solid rocket motors that produce most of the smoke.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2022, 02:01:17 PM by markjo »
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Heiwa

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #377 on: August 03, 2022, 10:28:34 PM »
I know. NASA balloon spaceships lifting off with smoke generators at the bottom live on TV are impressive.
Actually, the big cloud during a Saturn V lift off isn't smoke.  Most of it is actually steam from the water based sound suppression system.
https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/shuttle/launch/sound-suppression-system.html

If you look at liquid fuel rockets in flight, you will generally see very little smoke.  It's the solid rocket motors that produce most of the smoke.
Yes, that's what I like. Solid, simple, cheap, European fuel rocket engines! Elon Musk loves liquid fuel engines that cost more paid for by NASA and US tax payers.

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Stash

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #378 on: August 03, 2022, 11:50:25 PM »
I know. NASA balloon spaceships lifting off with smoke generators at the bottom live on TV are impressive.
Actually, the big cloud during a Saturn V lift off isn't smoke.  Most of it is actually steam from the water based sound suppression system.
https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/shuttle/launch/sound-suppression-system.html

If you look at liquid fuel rockets in flight, you will generally see very little smoke.  It's the solid rocket motors that produce most of the smoke.
Yes, that's what I like. Solid, simple, cheap, European fuel rocket engines! Elon Musk loves liquid fuel engines that cost more paid for by NASA and US tax payers.

European rocket engines like liquid fuel as well, because they use it:



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Heiwa

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #379 on: August 04, 2022, 12:56:40 AM »
Thanks. I know. But it is a joke to keep Elon Musk happy.

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Stash

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #380 on: August 04, 2022, 10:35:17 AM »
Thanks. I know. But it is a joke to keep Elon Musk happy.

Ariane 1 first successfully launched and delivered a satellite to orbit in 1979:

Ariane 1 was liquid-fueled; it originally used a mixture of unsymmetrical dimethylhydrazine (UMDH) and nitrogen tetroxide. However, after a launcher exploded in May 1980, the fuel mixture was changed to the more stable mixture of UMDH and hydrazine.

Elon Musk was 8 years old in 1979.


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markjo

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #381 on: August 04, 2022, 06:54:12 PM »
Yes, that's what I like. Solid, simple, cheap, European fuel rocket engines!
How many Europeans do those rocket motors burn?

BTW, in the rocket industry, solid propellant rockets are generally referred to as rocket motors.  Liquid propellant rockets are generally referred to as rocket engines.  Just thought that you ought to know.

Elon Musk loves liquid fuel engines that cost more paid for by NASA and US tax payers.
And NASA is getting a real bargain compared to their usual launch providers.

Thanks. I know. But it is a joke to keep Elon Musk happy.
Why would Arianespace care about keeping Elon Musk happy? ???
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Heiwa

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #382 on: August 04, 2022, 07:46:27 PM »
Yes, that's what I like. Solid, simple, cheap, European fuel rocket engines!
How many Europeans do those rocket motors burn?

BTW, in the rocket industry, solid propellant rockets are generally referred to as rocket motors.  Liquid propellant rockets are generally referred to as rocket engines.  Just thought that you ought to know.

Elon Musk loves liquid fuel engines that cost more paid for by NASA and US tax payers.
And NASA is getting a real bargain compared to their usual launch providers.

Thanks. I know. But it is a joke to keep Elon Musk happy.
Why would Arianespace care about keeping Elon Musk happy? ???
Thanks for comments. Personally I consider the whole "space business" a hoax and fraud since the mid 1950's with communist satellites and Gagarin orbiting Earth and NASA trying to win the war about it. All of it.

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markjo

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #383 on: August 04, 2022, 07:59:39 PM »
Personally I consider the whole "space business" a hoax and fraud since the mid 1950's with communist satellites and Gagarin orbiting Earth and NASA trying to win the war about it. All of it.
And personally I consider you to be the living embodiment of the phrase "ignorance is bliss".
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Heiwa

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #384 on: August 04, 2022, 08:14:09 PM »
Personally I consider the whole "space business" a hoax and fraud since the mid 1950's with communist satellites and Gagarin orbiting Earth and NASA trying to win the war about it. All of it.
And personally I consider you to be the living embodiment of the phrase "ignorance is bliss".
I know. But I have been around an checked "history" on the spot and talked to people involved. Take e.g. this Gagarin story and his trip in space - orbiting Earth - April 1961. It was fake news! 

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Bullwinkle

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #385 on: August 05, 2022, 01:05:49 AM »
. . . I have been around an checked "history" on the spot and talked to people involved. Take e.g. this Gagarin story and his trip in space - orbiting Earth - April 1961. It was fake news!
Who in their right mind would believe that shit?It had never been done before therefore it was impossible. 

Simple logic. Nothing is possible that has not been done before.
Just GEENUSE LOGKIC!!!1!!1!  (remember him?)   ;D





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Heiwa

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #386 on: August 05, 2022, 01:17:40 AM »
On 16 June 1963, Soviet cosmonaut Valentina Tereshkova became the first woman to travel into space. We all loved her. She was young and beautiful then and still alive today. But she never traveled in space. It was fake news!

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Bullwinkle

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #387 on: August 05, 2022, 01:38:49 AM »
On 16 June 1963, Soviet cosmonaut Valentina Tereshkova became the first woman to travel into space. We all loved her. She was young and beautiful then and still alive today. But she never traveled in space. It was fake news!
I was 2 in 1963.  I didn't love her.  She was not young and beautiful to me.
I understand, life through your lens is distorted by dementia, general malaise
and lack of basic cognitive skills. 

I would still enjoy spending a day with you.  I feel it would be fascinating. 
I would even be willing to sign a NDA and NSA. 


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Heiwa

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #388 on: August 05, 2022, 03:17:38 AM »
On 16 June 1963, Soviet cosmonaut Valentina Tereshkova became the first woman to travel into space. We all loved her. She was young and beautiful then and still alive today. But she never traveled in space. It was fake news!
I was 2 in 1963.  I didn't love her.  She was not young and beautiful to me.
I understand, life through your lens is distorted by dementia, general malaise
and lack of basic cognitive skills. 

I would still enjoy spending a day with you.  I feel it would be fascinating. 
I would even be willing to sign a NDA and NSA.
Thanks, but I prefer a date with Valentina Tereshkova.

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Wolvaccine

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #389 on: August 05, 2022, 04:04:39 AM »
On 16 June 1963, Soviet cosmonaut Valentina Tereshkova became the first woman to travel into space. We all loved her. She was young and beautiful then and still alive today. But she never traveled in space. It was fake news!
I was 2 in 1963.  I didn't love her.  She was not young and beautiful to me.
I understand, life through your lens is distorted by dementia, general malaise
and lack of basic cognitive skills. 

I would still enjoy spending a day with you.  I feel it would be fascinating. 
I would even be willing to sign a NDA and NSA.
Thanks, but I prefer a date with Valentina Tereshkova.

What happened to your offer for anyone to come over to your office for a chat?

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