The distortion of science

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NotSoSkeptical

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Re: The distortion of science
« Reply #120 on: November 28, 2018, 09:51:30 AM »
The way this thread has developed has proven my point. Science is not a good place for proper debate as there is too much space for misinformation, cherry picking, fake news and outright deception.
One of the main flat earth proponents who likes to quote scientists continually refuses point blank to answer questions on why none of the scientists he mentions are flat earth believers! He is also fond of quoting Nobel prize winners, so why has there has never been or will ever be any Nobel prize awarded for discoveries related to the flat earth? Would this not be o e of the greatest revelations ever?
If you want to use science in an argument  or debate you must embrace all of science and not just those tiny bits that suit your requirements. Rejecting those parts of science that are impossible to argue against by claiming conspiracy is no more than an anti scientific copout.

1. The earth is obviously NOT flat!!!
2. The earth is obviously stationary!!!
3. Just imagine yourself (or better try it in reality) walking on treadmill at 5-10 km/h (2,7 m/s -5,5 m/s) :
This girl is demonstrating these speeds (she is walking about 10 km/h in the first part of a video, and in the second part (closer to the end of the video) she is walking about 5-6 km/h) :

Now, try to imagine (or better try it in reality) that she (or better you yourself) suddenly stops.
Have you imagined this scenario? Have you figured out what would be your feeling (due to instantly restored initial momentum)?
Now, try this same procedure on the motionless ground, that is to say : just walk with the same speed and all of a sudden stop walking and try to imagine (or better try it in reality and see if you feel the same feeling as in the first scenario) what would you feel? Would you feel an effect of an instant restoration of lost momentum?
*It is just not the same thing to get the velocity back and to lose velocity!!!*
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STATIONARY EARTH SCENARIO :

The boat sails 30 knots per hour towards west

After one hour the boat is 30 nm westward from it's starting position (within earth's frame of reference and with respect to the frame of reference of absolute space, also).

As soon as we turn off the engine which propels the propeller of the boat, there will be no need for restoration of anything (non-pre-existing initial inertia).

The consequence / the effect = the boat will simply rest at the calm water of the canal with no kind of perturbation/disturbance/commotion.

Concorde had a take-off speed of 220 knots (250 mph) or 400 km/h...Now, imagine concorde is rolling in a counter direction of earth's spin somewhere along the Arctic circle (at 400 km/h) where the alleged speed of earth's rotation is about 700 km/h.


SPINNING EARTH SCENARIO :

The river flows 30 knots per hour towards east

The boat sails 30 knots per hour towards west

After one hour the boat is 30 nm westward from it's starting position (within earth's frame of reference), although with respect to the frame of reference of absolute space the boat didn't move at all.

While boat propeller runs, it's work counteracts inertial impact of river's flow (towards east) on a boat, that is to say : boat propeller's work cancels out boat's initial inertia (due to the river's flow) and the boat stays at the same spatial position all the time.

As soon as we turn off the engine which propels the propeller of the boat, the river's flow is going to restore initial inertia of the boat.

The consequence / the effect = As soon the wind stops (as soon the boat propeller ceases to spin) the strength of river's flow is going to exert it's force on the boat in eastward direction, and almost instantly restore boat's lost initial inertia by abruptly putting the boat in eastward motion.
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So, if the air behaved like a gas, not like a water (which presumes gradual restoration of lost INITIAL INERTIA) we should expected such outcome : Even before leaving the ground concorde would cancel out more than 50 % of it's initial inertia (momentum). What does that mean? It means that at the very moment of taking off, concorde passengers should be able to notice (very perceptibly) rotational motion of the earth beneath them assuming that the pilot of concorde right after taking off, turns concorde to the left or to the right (it doesn't make any difference), so that their direction of flight is now perpendicular to the direction of earth's rotation. Concorde passengers should be able (while concorde is restoring it's initial angular momentum (which he had before taking off)) to see VERY DISTINCTLY AND PERCEPTIBLY how the earth is turning below them from their left side to their right side (if concorde has turned to the right), or from their right to their left (if concorde has turned to the left).

If the air behaved like a water, which presumes INSTANT RESTITUTION/REGAINING of partially lost INITIAL INERTIA of concorde, *passengers would be subdued (in the very moment the pilot of concorde abruptly turns an airplane to the right or to the left) to an effect of enormously strong abrupt instant sideways blow which would tend to carry concorde in a direction of earth's rotation.*

Isn't that so? If you still think that it isn't so, please explain why it isn't so!
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Boris Popovich was quite right when posting his comment (you can find his comment below this very video, just scroll down a little bit) : Armando Silvier I lived in Germany and I drove Mercedes at 200km\h, and that's insanely fast. The surface of the earth travels almost ten times faster!!! *you are comparing that to clock arms? Seriously?* And we are not talking about linear path, but circular. You can't compare it to walking on the train while train is moving either. It's literally taking off and landing on a moving target. Use a little bit of common sense. The thing is that even if it is not very significant because of the inertia, it is not accounted for in any way, which means that we are NOT moving! Try to go deeper into the flight paths and the whole technology and you will see that moving earth is not a factor. That's because it's NOT.

ACCOMPANYING VIDEO :

PTOLOMY'S ARGUMENT AGAINST ROTATION OF THE EARTH : http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/1890SidM....9..293H

The earth is not stationary.

Speed relative to size.

If you account for size and scale up or down you will realized why statements such as Boris Popovich's are utter crap.

The fastest human can run at a speed of 44.2 km/h.  For the average size of a human that is 6 body lengths per second.

The Paratarsotomus macropalpis, a dust mite, is only .7mm and moves .255m per second (0.918km/h) but moves 322 body lengths per second.  Scaled up to the size of a human, that dust mite would move at over 2400km/h.

Now scale the earth down to the size of a human and have it rotate at the same ~24hour revolution as the earth.  How fast is a point on the surface moving?  No very fast at all.
If "deserving" time was a factor for responding on these forums, then no one would be here posting.

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cikljamas

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Re: The distortion of science
« Reply #121 on: November 28, 2018, 10:37:00 AM »
The earth is not stationary.

Speed relative to size.

If you account for size and scale up or down you will realized why statements such as Boris Popovich's are utter crap.

The fastest human can run at a speed of 44.2 km/h.  For the average size of a human that is 6 body lengths per second.

The Paratarsotomus macropalpis, a dust mite, is only .7mm and moves .255m per second (0.918km/h) but moves 322 body lengths per second.  Scaled up to the size of a human, that dust mite would move at over 2400km/h.

Now scale the earth down to the size of a human and have it rotate at the same ~24hour revolution as the earth.  How fast is a point on the surface moving?  No very fast at all.
The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits.

Your ingenuity reminds me to one other genius to whom i addressed the following words below this video:

Logic and common sense are not your strong points...
You don't even know what you are talking about. Our alleged displacement of 0,0125 (which would be 0,0006/60*3 rpm according to your correct math, but UTTERLY STUPID LOGIC!!!) degree to the left (to the east) is equal to 1000 m, so if i moved my camera 20 cm and by doing such a short motion produced such a long sun-trail, how in the world these 1000 m of our alleged displacement in the same direction (to the left) due to the alleged rotation of the earth wouldn't affect sensor of my camera in the same manner as my 20 cm motion did affect it? Can you explain to us what difference does it make (regarding my claim that 1000 m long displacement in the same direction would cause even longer sun-trail in the sensor of my camera than my 20 cm long motion) if you call our alleged rotational motion to the left "0,0125 degr." (which would be 0,0006/60*3 rpm according to your correct math, but UTTERLY STUPID LOGIC!!!) instead of "1000 m"??? By giving another name to our alleged 1000 m you haven't managed to transform these 1000 m into something else, have you?
"I can't breathe" George Floyd RIP

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JackBlack

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Re: The distortion of science
« Reply #122 on: November 28, 2018, 01:03:51 PM »
2. The earth is obviously stationary!!!
Stop spouting the same BS lies.
The Earth is not obviously stationary. So far all the evidence indicates linear, inertial motion is relative, and thus saying it is stationary in that sense makes very little sense.
However there is plenty of other evidence which indicates it is moving, specifically rotating, and gravity and Newton's third law indicates it should be moving as well.
When you jump, not only do you go up, you also push Earth away. It is insignificant, but it is still motion. Earth is moving.

Notice how you have now run away from yet another topic and try to bring up even more BS?
After repeating your ass handed to you regarding the aether, rather than an admit you were wrong you run away.
So I will take this change of topic as an admission that you were completely and utterly wrong regarding the aether and that the logical conclusion is that the aether does not exist, and that you will never bring it up again, and any attempt at doing so is you blatantly lying to everyone.

3. Just imagine yourself (or better try it in reality) walking on treadmill at 5-10 km/h (2,7 m/s -5,5 m/s) :
Or just imagine yourself running on a stationary surface.
The same thing happens.
It is all based upon relative motion.
You are in motion relative to the ground. It doesn't matter if you are moving or the ground is.
If you stop running, you faceplant.

For your pathetic boat example, the boat is propelled to counteract the drag from the water. If it is moving at a steady speed it has nothing to do with its inertia, it is entirely the drag.

Gaining and losing velocity is the exact same thing. Both require acceleration and thus force.

This has already been brought up countless times and you have had your ass handed to you in regards to this countless times.
It is just you completely ignoring science and reality.


Isn't that so? If you still think that it isn't so, please explain why it isn't so!
We have already done that the countless other times you have brought this garbage up.
You are yet to point out any actual problem with our refutations of your claims nor have you been able to provide any defense of your garbage.

Stop spouting the same refuted garbage as if it hasn't been refuted countless times already.
It just makes you look pathetic.

The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits.
And you clearly have no limits.

If you had a strong argument you would stick to it, and keep going until it was done, either being refuted and you accepting it, or you addressing the counter-arguments against it.
If you only had pathetic garbage that could easily be refuted, you would bring up as much as possible and continually jump between it to avoid admitting it is wrong.

What is it that you are doing?

If you think you have a valid argument, make it and stick to it. Don't run away and repeatedly change topics like you always do.

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cikljamas

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Re: The distortion of science
« Reply #123 on: November 28, 2018, 03:06:08 PM »
Jack, you refuted nothing, stop embarrassing yourself.

AETHER ISSUE - ONCE AGAIN - LET'S SUM UP IT - JUST FOR YOU :

1. Two months after publication of the first paper, Sagnac would conclude his second and final paper on the matter with these words-
"The result of this methodology demonstrates that, in the surrounding space [of the apparatus], light is propagated with a velocity Vo
which is independent of the movement of the parts of the system, light source (...) and the optical circuit."

This is the central theme of Sagnac: that the propagation of light appears to be independent of the state of rotation of his self-contained apparatus, exactly because one can differentially measure its advance or retardation as a function of the speed of rotation of the apparatus.

What is the consequence of the Sagnac experiment for the MGP experiment?  To begin with, Sagnac's apparatus was rotating (with the control fringe pattern being obtained first with the apparatus 'at rest'), whereas the MGP setup was a stationary one. 

This fact is intimately linked to the nature of the measurements in question: the Sagnac experiment detects the rotation of the revolving interferometer (relative to the 'rest state'), whereas the MGP experiment, with its interferometer fixed to the local revolving frame, detected the rotation of the earth. 

Because of the resolution limits, the Sagnac experiment could never have hoped to detect the rotation of the earth, anymore than the MM experiment could have detected the rotation of its own apparatus. 

What the Sagnac experiment did, however, unequivocally demonstrate was that there was a precedent for the optical detection of rotary
motion.

But relativists, including Einstein, largely discarded this fact for nearly three decades. 

An open-loop Sagnac effect (dt= 2A?/c2) is today well established for the paths of electromagnetic signals around the planet: employing the GPS satellite relay system, delays have been measured by clocks on the order of fractions of microseconds in the W-E transmission with respect to the E-W transmission.

The results of the Sagnac experiment, the MGP experiment and the Brillet and Hall experiment, all indicate that one can effectively measure rotation by optical means, whetherthe interferometer is rotating or not.  Given the required resolution, a rotating interferometer will always be capable of optically measuring its own rate of rotation, as well as  that of the revolving frame on which its axis of rotation is inertially at rest. A stationary interferometer can only electromagnetically measure the rate of rotation of the revolving frame on which it is inertially at rest.

No relativist today would dream of disputing the findings of the Sagnac experiment. Most transoceanic planes, nuclear submarines and communications satellites navigate today with laser ring gyroscopes that utilize the Sagnac effect for position location. The accuracy of the original Sagnac experiment has been estimated at 1:100, but a repetition of the Sagnac experiment with lasers, in 1963, by Macek and Davis, confirmed the result to 1:10^12.

Curiously, many relativists and experimentalists get caught in their ignorance of the Sagnac effect. In 1979, Brillet and Hall reported a null result (absence of frequency shift) with frequency-locked laser beams, one set in a rotating interferometer, and the other kept stationary, and thus concluded  in favour of the isotropy of space. However, not only did they observe a 50 Hz signal at precisely the rotation rate of the turntable employed, but also another more troublesome signal, at 17Hz.  Aspden, who has suggested  that  the null
result may well be  the  inevitable consequence of such  frequency-locked  laser  tests because "the frequency of the lasers will adjust to the reorientation of the apparatus exactly to cancel any effect due to motion through the  light-reference frame", commented on the 17Hz frequency shift findings of Brillet and Hall, which had been ignored by them as a "persistent spurious signal":

"Interpreting  the 17 Hz signal as the second harmonic of table rotation found by Brillet and Hall in relation to the laser frequency 8.85*1013 Hz, we find the ratio 1.92*10^-13 and, as  this  is 0.131  (v/c)^2, we  find  that v/c  is 1.21*10^-6, giving v as 363 m/sec.   If our theory is correct then, within the errors of measurement, this should be the west-east speed of  earth  rotation  at Boulder, Colorado.  Being  at  40°N, Boulder  has,  in  fact,  an  earth rotation speed of 355 m/sec." Apparently, Brillet and Hall were conducting a control on the MGP experiment using the Sagnac effect to detect the earth's speed of rotation and with the required resolution, without knowing it!

2. For Sagnac, the result of his famous experiment proves the existence of the aether. In his paper, Sagnac also predicts that a similar effect would be observed from the diurnal Earth rotation (the Earth taken as a rotating turntable) using a very large interferometer. The argument of this author (Gianni Pascoli) appears a priori quite convincing. The existence of a propagation medium for light waves seems to be confirmed by his experiment.

But in science, an hypothesis cannot be validated only if it allows one to explain all the experiments, not one in particular. Other experiments definitively invalidate the hypothesis of the aether, according to Gianni Pascoli. Perhaps most famous is the crucial experiment of Michelson and Morley. The aim of this experiment was to measure the displacement of the Earth with respect to the aether. Using an interferometric device, they showed that the velocity of the aether wind, if any, was less than 5 km/s (we should remember that the alleged velocity of the Earth in the solar system is 30 km/s, and therefore much greater). The procedure has obviously been repeated several times within a year (in case at a given time, and by an extraordinary coincidence, the Earth's velocity at the time of measurement had been less than 5 km/s with respect to the aether), but no seasonal effects have been found. The Michelson–Morley experiment has been repeated with ever-increasing accuracy.

The Michelson-type experiment carried out by Georg Joos in 1930 allowed him to give a bound to the velocity of the aether wind of less than 1.5 km/s. More recently, experiments have been carried out using various sophisticated devices, such as lasers and masers, optical resonators and microwaves, etc. The conclusion is always the same: no measurable aether wind which speed would be close to the alleged orbital speed of the earth. If we only focus on the Michelson–Morley experiment, it is still perfectly legitimate to imagine that the Earth completely drags the aether in its translatory motion (Fresnel had already suggested in 1818 the hypothesis of a partial dragging of the aether with moving substances). In this case, the negative result of the Michelson experiment has a trivial explanation.

Unfortunately, however, such an assumption cannot be maintained. There are two immediate reasons for this :

---First of all, it is inconsistent with the aberration of fixed stars (as we know, during a year the stars describe a small ellipse on the background of the sky. This effect cannot occur if the aether is fully dragged by the Earth).

---Secondly, the experiment of Sagnac was repeated by Michelson and Gale in 1925, but this time taking the Earth as a rotating disk (as already suggested by Sagnac himself). These authors observed a displacement of the fringes of interferences, as had Sagnac in his own experiment. This positive result undoubtedly confirms that the Earth does not drag the hypothetical aether in its rotation (it is therefore illogical to admit that it drags this medium in its translation).

---The only acceptable conclusion that can be drawn from these two experiments, Michelson–Morley, on the one hand, and Michelson–Gale, on the other hand, is that the hypothesis of the existence of a medium of propagation for light is not tenable, unless we accept geocentric implications from the combined effect of both experiments (MM and MGP). In the classical context, it is clear that the Sagnac effect cannot at all be explained, unless we admit that the earth is at rest while the whole universe rotates around the stationary earth.

3. It appears rather amazing that the "correct relativistic interpretation" of the Sagnac effect took eight years. A seemingly obvious reason is that Sagnac's experiment was not very much discussed in the scientific literature, even in France after the discovery of 1913. Conscious of this situation, in 1919, Sagnac published five papers on his work in the Comptes rendus. The paradox is that his ideas were nevertheless borne by a French group of strong antirelativists. In 1919, Sagnac was even rewarded with the Pierson–Perrin Prize for his achievements on this topic (first for the experiment, seen as a rebuttal of the relativity principle, the constancy of light, and also for having proven the reality of absolute space and time).

Einstein published his theory of general relativity in 1915. (two years after Sagnac had conducted his famous, decisive experiment). Isn't that interesting???

3. If, with General Relativity, Einstein had attempted to demonstrate that the fundamental laws of Physics ought to be the same in inertial and non-inertial, or revolving, frames of reference, why should inertial frames be unable to optically measure their translation, but non-inertial frames be able to measure their rotation?  The question is all the more poignant as Newton's Law of Gravitation was easily deduced from Kepler's Laws of Planetarian Translation, but remained disconnected from planetarian rotation. Yet, the circular-Galilean or elliptico-Keplerian motion of the planets must be considered to be just as much a form of angular motion as planetary rotation is.

Because Relativity, in its restricted form, had largely discarded the problem of rotation from consideration of the null effect of the MM-type experiments, it could appear to be consistent with both electromagnetic detectability of rotation and undetectability of translation, and thus appear to withstand not only  this  contradiction  but  also  its  ambivalence  with  regard  to  the  detectability  or undetectability of rotation!

The ensuing confusion amongst physicists was so deep, that the results of the MGP experiment could advantageously be seen to confirm Einstein's Relativity with respect to rotational motion, irrespective of the outcome of the experiment (!) - and just as well appeared to confirm the adequacy of Michelson's method to detect the rotary deflection predicted by aether theory.  While Relativity was satisfied with the negative result with respect to translation, it was nearly indifferent to the results obtained with respect to rotation.

This  ambiguous situation was reflected in the ranks of relativists. Those who believed that the positive result from the MGP experiment was significant, like Silberstein, would argue that all it proved was that "the earth rotates in its axis", and those who believed that the result was non-significant, like A. Compton, would conclude that the earth's rotation had no effect on the speed of light and that the MGP experiment had definitely disproved the aether-drag hypothesis and confirmed Relativity. The latter view has today become the accepted one, and most discussions of the speed of light tests ignore the MGP experiment and feel justified in doing so. 

Jaffe, in his book, "Michelson and the speed of light", gives the matter one paragraph in which he does not even report the findings.
However, at the time, in 1925, the lines were not yet drawn in the sand, and the perplexed and ambivalent state of physicists and relativists alike was translated by the famous New York Times headline of January 9, 1925 - "Michelson Proves Einstein Theory - Ether-Drift is Confirmed - Rays found to travel at different speeds when sent in opposite directions"!!

The paradox could not have been greater.

A. Compton was ultimately correct - if the results of the MGP experiment are, or were, to be considered significant, they could never be seen as proving Einstein's theory.  What was consistent with Mach's principle was the complete inability of an observer to detect either his rotation or his translation by optical reference to a fixed aether.  Hence, for A. Compton, the MGP experiment presented a non-significant phase difference and therefore confirmed Relativity because there was no aether-drag that could or should be invoked. 

With the triumph of this view, a new set of rules had insidiously crept into the game.  Relativity now required a null result in both the MM and the MGP experiments, and the door was closed on the matter of the aether.


"I can't breathe" George Floyd RIP

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cikljamas

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Re: The distortion of science
« Reply #124 on: November 28, 2018, 03:07:57 PM »

4. H. Thirring in 1918 and 1922 suggested that Einstein's theory of gravitation or GR should  be  taken  to  indicate  that  the  spontaneous  orientation  of  gyroscopes  and  the phenomenon of atmospheric wind could be treated as if the earth were stationary (not rotating) and 'the distant stars' were moving around it at a speed high enough (>>c) to generate strong gravitational effects (fictional centrifugal and Coriolis forces).

"One need not view the existence of such centrifugal forces as originating from the motion of K [e.g.-the Earth]; one could just as well account for them as resulting from the average rotational effect of distant, detectable masses as evidenced in the vicinity of K, whereby K is treated as being at rest. - Albert Einstein, quoted in Hans Thirring, "On the Effect of Distant Rotating Masses in Einstein's Theory of Gravitation", Physikalische Zeitschrift 22, 29, 1921

"If one rotates the shell relative to the fixed stars about an axis going through its center, a Coriolis force arises in the interior of the shell, *that is, the plane of a Foucault pendulum is dragged around*" - Albert Einstein, cited in "Gravitation", Misner Thorne and Wheeler pp. 544-545.

"...Thus we may return to Ptolemy's point of view of a 'motionless earth'...One has to show that the transformed metric can be regarded as produced according to Einstein's field equations, by distant rotating masses. This has been done by Thirring. He calculated a field due to a rotating, hollow, thick-walled sphere and proved that inside the cavity it behaved as though there were centrifugal and other inertial forces usually attributed to absolute space. Thus from Einstein's point of view, Ptolemy and Corpenicus are equally right." - Max Born, "Einstein's Theory of Relativity", Dover Publications, 1962, pp 344 & 345.

"[W]e have[...] certainty regarding the stability of the Earth, situated in the center, and the motion of the sun around the Earth." - Galileo Galilei in letter to Francesco Rinuccini, March 29th, 1641

"[Redshifts] would imply that we occupy a unique position in the universe, analogous, in a sense, to the ancient conception of a central Earth[...] This hypothesis cannot be disproved" - Edwin Hubble in The Observational Approach to Cosmology

"[A]ll this evidence that the universe looks the same whichever direction we look in might seem to suggest there is something special about our place in the universe. In particular, it might seem that if we observe all other galaxies to be moving away from us, then we must be at the center of the universe[...] We [reject] it only on grounds of modesty" - Stephen Hawking in A Brief History of Time

"If the Earth were at the center of the universe, the attraction of the surrounding mass of stars would also produce redshifts wherever we looked! [This] theory seems quite consistent with our astronomical observations" - Paul Davies in Nature

"I can construct you a spherically symmetrical universe with Earth at its center, and you cannot disprove it[...] A lot of cosmology tries to hide that." - George Ellis in Scientific American

"The new results are either telling us that all of science is wrong and we're the center of the universe, or maybe the data is simply incorrect" - Lawrence Krauss, 2006

"[Without Dark Energy, Earth must be] literally at the center of the universe, which is, to say the least, unusual" - Lawrence Krauss, 2009

"I don't think [CMB maps] don't point toward a geocentric universe" - Max Tegmarck, 2011

"[R]ed shift in the spectra of quasars leads to yet another paradoxical result: namely, that the Earth is the center of the Universe." - Y.P. Varshni in Astrophysics and Space Science

"Earth is indeed the center of the universe." - Y.P. Varshni in Astrophysics and Space Science

"If the universe possesses a center, we must be very close to it" - Joseph Silk in The Big Bang: The Creation and Evolution of the Universe

"The uniform distribution of [gamma-ray] burst arrival directions tells us that the distribution of gamma-ray-burst sources in space is a sphere or spherical shell, with us at the center" - Jonathan Katz in The Biggest Bangs: The Mystery of Gamma-Ray Bursts, the Most Violent Explosions in the Universe

"To date, there has been no general way of determining [that] we live at a typical position in the Universe" - Chris Clarkson et al. in Physical Review Letters in 2008

Ignorant folk think that such minority opinions as geocentric theory are the "conspiracy theories" Geocentrism is the only proven fact of science, yet scientific community runs from it like the plague because it cuts through their worldview.. . . There is a real conspiracy for sure but the sad thing is it is mostly a "conspiracy of willful and apathetic ignorance" (for numerous reasons). The very people who would call geocentrists "quack conspiracy theorists" are either themselves completely ignorant of even modern cosmological axioms and principles of gravitation and mechanics or they are just "playing stupid", hoping that no one will notice or call their bluff.

Most of those who pretend to be intelligent and/or knowledgeable about physics are just plain stupid, and a few are just ignorant but once you show them, if they are honest and will continue the dialogue, they say something to the effect of, "Wow! I even got a PhD in physics X number of years ago and even taught it for X number of years... I did not think about it that way... but you can't ignore those facts". You can go to any mental hospital and the population of wackos and inmates will outnumber the doctors and the sane folk, and moreover call them crazies.

What’s even more hilarious is the fact that even folk like Steven Hawking and a few intellectually honest physicists and cosmologists who would read what we are saying and are capable of understanding it, know that what we have been saying is absolutely true ( it is a philosophical not a logic and observational choice). Not only do they admit that but even "snicker" about it to each other...LOL... but they won't dare to address that too openly with the dumb, ignorant masses... best not to confuse the common folk with unnecessary information and facts.

Even more sad are all the others like out there who don’t have a clue what I’m saying here and shake their heads thinking they know something about physics that tells them that the Earth moves. If only they studied the text books and peer reviewed papers a little closer, they would realize just how absolutely ignorant with a capital "I" that argument really is.

When De revolutionibus by Copernicus (1473-1543) was published in May of 1543, it used a text of the protestant theologian Andreas Osiander as an introduction, in which he explained that heliocentrism was a proposal of an astronomical model to facilitate the calculations of celestial motions, but he did not want to draw any realistic conclusions in the field of natural philosophy. In Bellarmine’s letter, the distinction is clear between the astronomer-mathematician who does calculations on one side and, on the other side, the natural philospher who qualitatively describes the real in light of a theologically inspired metaphysics:

«For there is no danger in saying that, by assuming the Earth moves and the sun stands still, one saves all of the appearances better than by postulating eccentrics and epicycles; and that is sufficient for the mathematician. However, it is different to want to affirm that in reality the sun is at the center of the world and only turns on itself, without moving from east to west, and the earth is in the third heaven and revolves with great speed around the sun; this is a very dangerous thing, likely not only to irritate all scholastic philosophers and theologians, but also to harm the Holy Faith by rendering Holy Scripture false.».

BELLARMINE TO FOSCARINI (GALILEO) : https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=71225.msg1931338#msg1931338

Galileo recanted his heliocentric belief :




5. You haven't done your homework on this one either.

Not surprising, given the fact that you do not even know the correct definition of the Sagnac effect.

Arago showed that a light beam (pointed toward or away from Earth's supposed orbit) had the same refraction in glass as the refraction of starlight in glass.

It always showed the Earth at rest in the ether.

Then, Fresnel came up with the experiment that bears his name.

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg2054512#msg2054512 (Fresnel formula hoax)

Then, Fizeau.

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg2053484#msg2053484 (Fizeau experiment hoax)

However, Hoek put an end to the debate regarding the stellar aberration.

Mascart did the same thing.


Hoek and Mascart experiments:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1956136#msg1956136

Martinus Hoek, “Determination de la vitesse avec laquelle est entrainée une onde
lumineuse traversant un milieu en mouvement,” Arch. Neerl., 1868, 3, pp. 180-185;
and 1869, 4, pp. 443-450

"In 1868, M. Hoek, an astronomer from Utrecht, split a light beam so that it would travel in opposite directions, and he had the beams travel through both water and air. Again, since light travels slower in water, then as the light beams meet back at the starting point, one beam will come in slower than the other and cause what is known as “fringes” on the receiving plate, that is, alternating light and dark patterns. Working on the idea that as the Earth moved through space it was doing so against the ether, which creates friction against the light (and which Fresnel described as a “drag”), if the apparatus of Hoek’s experiment were turned in the direction of the Earth’s movement, and then subsequently perpendicular to it, there would not only be fringes but a noticeable shifting of the fringes.

To his surprise, Hoek noticed no significant difference in the fringes, not in accord with an Earth supposedly moving 30 km/sec."

Mascart Experiment

E. Mascart, "Sur les modifications qu'eprouve la lumiere par suite du mouvement de la source lumineuse", Ann. de l'Ecole norm. 1, 1872, 157-214

Still another experiment was performed just one year after Airy’s findings to test for the motion of the Earth. In 1872 Eleuthère Elie Nicolas Mascart devised an experiment in which he could detect the motion of the Earth through ether by measuring the rotation of the plane of polarization of light propagated along the axis of a quartz crystal. Mascart was awarded the 1873 Grand Prix of the Paris Academy of Sciences for this work

Polarization is a phenomenon of white light, which propagates along the axis of forward movement at many different angles but is reduced to just one angle. Polarizers are filters containing long-chain polymer molecules that are oriented in one specific position. As such, the incident light vibrating in the same plane as the polymer molecules is the only light absorbed, while light vibrating at right angles to the plane is passed through the polarizer. Mascart set up the experiment so that if the Earth were passing through the ether at the expected clip of 30 km/sec, then the light’s plane of polarization would be affected. Mascart found no such results. His experiment was just another indication that Earth was not moving.

You were saying... what?
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Themightykabool

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Re: The distortion of science
« Reply #125 on: November 28, 2018, 03:33:44 PM »
Do you and sando have a word generator?
Holy crap thats a lot of words.

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Stash

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Re: The distortion of science
« Reply #126 on: November 28, 2018, 03:40:31 PM »
No relativist today would dream of disputing the findings of the Sagnac experiment. Most transoceanic planes, nuclear submarines and communications satellites navigate today with laser ring gyroscopes that utilize the Sagnac effect for position location. The accuracy of the original Sagnac experiment has been estimated at 1:100, but a repetition of the Sagnac experiment with lasers, in 1963, by Macek and Davis, confirmed the result to 1:10^12.

Agreed. Much like how laser ring gyroscopes that utilize the Sagnac effect for position location in geostationary satellites. You know, the ones that remain in a fixed position over the equator and rotate along with earth.

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JackBlack

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Re: The distortion of science
« Reply #127 on: November 28, 2018, 04:14:19 PM »
AETHER ISSUE - ONCE AGAIN
Make up your mind. Do you want to discuss aether, or something else?
Stop switching back and forth among various topics to avoid admitted you were completely refutted.

LET'S SUM UP IT
Yes, let's sum it up, the main important points.
Based upon the aether model of light propagation:
1 - The MM experiment shows that Earth must not be translating w.r.t. the aether, with the original limited to a speed of roughly 5 km/s if I recall correctly, and subsequent ones getting even better.
2 - The phenomenon of stellar aberration shows that Earth must be moving w.r.t. the aether at a very significant speed (roughly 30 km/s).
These 2 phenomenon require that Earth is both moving and stationary w.r.t. the aether. This is impossible and shows the aether model does not work.

That is what you need to address regarding the aether.
Continuing to ignore this massive contradiction and instead only presenting things you think support you is you blatantly misrepresenting scientific discoveries.

Saganac didn't prove the aether model. He disproved the ballistic model. Sagnac is also expected under relativity.
Airy's failure was a complete failure which showed nothing as it relied upon the water dragging the light but not dragging the light.
MM only showed no motion of Earth relative to the aether, it doesn't show Earth is at rest w.r.t. some absolute space, nor did it detect any motion.

What the Sagnac experiment did, however, unequivocally demonstrate was that there was a precedent for the optical detection of rotary
motion.
No one is disputing that. The closest you get is you and Sandy that don't like it showing Earth rotates.
It doesn't matter if it took people a long time to accept it.
Nor does it magically make aether correct, even if Sagnac believed it did.


Unfortunately, however, such an assumption cannot be maintained. There are two immediate reasons for this :
---First of all, it is inconsistent with the aberration of fixed stars
And that is what you need to deal with, but you continually ignore it. (as we know, during a year the stars describe a small ellipse on the background of the sky. This effect cannot occur if the aether is fully dragged by the Earth).

---The only acceptable conclusion that can be drawn from these two experiments
Which is intentionally ignoring stellar aberration as it refutes that idea.
The only acceptable conclusion that can be drawn from MGP experiments is that light does not behave ballistically, and that there is some rotation of Earth.
The only acceptable conclusion that can be drawn from MM experiments and stellar aberration is that the aether model is wrong.


The paradox could not have been greater.
Yes, your paradox.
You require MM to try to pretend that Earth is stationary w.r.t. the aether and Airy's failure to pretend Earth is stationary, while stellar aberration itself under the aether model requires Earth to be moving w.r.t. the aether.

You have the massive paradox of Earth being stationary w.r.t. the aether while it is also moving w.r.t. the aether.

Until you manage to address that massive paradox, anything else you say regarding the refuted aether is irrelevant.

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Lonegranger

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Re: The distortion of science
« Reply #128 on: November 28, 2018, 11:40:04 PM »
It’s amazing watching FE believers scrabble about looking for historical references to the aether! At one time people did in fact believe in the aether as a medium for light, but now we don’t. Why do you think after the 1920s the whole idea of the aether was quietly forgotten. It’s now one just one of the many requirements of flat earth belief.

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cikljamas

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Re: The distortion of science
« Reply #129 on: November 29, 2018, 05:12:32 AM »
@Jack, don't make me laugh!

1. I don't know what causes stellar aberration, and i don't have to know the real reason which lies behind that phenomena. Why i don't have to know it? Because Airy's failure experiment was designed to determine whether the real reason which causes this phenomena should be assigned to the earth's orbital motion or not!

Who designed this method of verification? One of the greatest physicist of all time.

Who was Ruđer Bošković : http://www.croatia.org/crown/articles/10055/1/Rudjer-Boskovic-a-famous-Croatian-scientist-born-300-years-ago-in-1711.html

>>>With his theory of forces R. Bošković was a forerunner of modern physics for almost two centuries. It was described in his most important book Theoria Philosophiae naturalis (Vienna 1758, Venice 1763, London 1922, American edition in 1966).

Werner Heisenberg (Nobel prize for physics in 1932) wrote the following:

"Among scientists from the 18th century Boskovic occupies outstanding place as a theologian, philosopher, mathematician, and astronomer. His "Theoria philosophiae naturalis" announced hypotheses which were confirmed only in the course of last fifty years. "<<<

James Bradley was the guy to whom my countryman Ruder Bošković (forgotten croatian genius) - during his visitation to London - proposed to conduct a decisive experiment in order to determine if the earth orbits the sun!!! Almost 100 years later (In 1871) G. B. Airy (1802-1892) implemented the verification of Bradley's aberration hypothesis proposed by Boscovich. Bošković even designed a telescope filled with water in all its components, which was implemented at the Greenwich observatory in 1871, that is, 84 years after his death.

Of course, Airy's water-filled instrument did not deliver the desired proof of the Copernican paradigm. Agreeing with somewhat similar tests already performed by Hoek and Klinkerfusz, the experiment demonstrated exactly the opposite outcome of that which had to be confidently expected. Actually the most careful measurements gave the same angle of aberration for a telescope with water as for one filled with air.

Airy put water in the telescope to test Bradley's claim that the moving Earth
caused aberration; he saw no change in aberration angle with the water
added.  This was termed a ‘failure’, since Bradley’s theory of receiver motion
predicted a change with the index of refraction – n.



Bradley analysis – dashed lines above  :  The middle telescope is tilted to see
the aberrated starlight.  When light moves through the telescope from A to D
the Earth – and telescope - move from B to D .  This determines the aberration
angle of tilt ,  arc tan( BD/AD).
Airy analysis – solid lines above:   With water added (left telescope), the light
travels the distance AD through the telescope slower, at ¾ of c.
So the telescope travels further at the Earth’s orbital speed, a distance BE, and
the aberration is now greater, arc sin( AD/BE ).   Nice theory, but fails to
predict the actual result, shown in the right telescope – there’s NO CHANGE
in the tilting required! 
The Earth’s motion as cause of aberration is simply refuted by Airy’s test – the
‘failure’ to increase aberration with water as the telescope medium, instead of
air.
Airy’s failure is in reality a ‘success’ for GC prediction and the ALFA model,
where the flexible aether ‘s sidereal rotation explains the result. The deflection
occurs in transit due to the sideways aether flow. The light path is bent in
space, before entering the telescope, while the Earth is at rest. 

GC ALFA analysis :  There are no D and E distances, since the Earth is
motionless.  The light beam in water just travels slower, at ¾ of c, from A to B,
but there’s no sideways motion.  So no additional tilting is needed….. Airy’s
test is a success – for GC and the ALFA model!

CONCLUSION: The deflection of starlight known as stellar aberration is NOT due
to the Earth’s motion, but is an external bending of light before reaching the
telescope.



SO, EARTH'S ORBITAL MOTION IS EXCLUDED AS A POSSIBLE REASON WHICH LIES BEHIND THIS PHENOMENA!!!

THIS IS HOW YOU CAN BE DOUBLE-SURE THAT STELLAR ABERRATION IS NOT CAUSED BY EARTH'S SUPPOSED MOTION AROUND THE SUN :

If we accept the Copernican viewpoint and its unavoidable
extrapolations with regard to the structure of the universe, we
have to accept the consequences. Then we cannot hold on to the
picture of a simple sun- centered cosmos, of which not even
Newton was fully convinced, but which Bradley and Molyneux
took for granted. Today the astronomers assure us that our Great
Light is only an insignificant member of a spiral Milky Way
galaxy, containing billions of stars. Our sun flies at a speed of
about 250 km/sec around the center of this system. And that is
not all, the ruling cosmology also tells us how the Milky Way
itself whirls at 360,000 km/hr through the space occupied by the
local group of galaxies. Now all these imposing particulars are
theoretically gathered from observations assuming the speed of
light to be 300,000 km/sec, at least, everywhere through our
spatial neighborhood. But if this cosmological panorama is put
through its paces, there is a hitch somewhere. The astronomical
theorists cannot have their cake and eat it. If they accept— as all
the textbooks still do!—Bradley's “proof” of the Copernican
truth, then their cosmological extrapolations of that truth clash
with a not-yet developed simple heliocentrism; that is to say, with
the model of an earth orbiting a spatially unmoved sun.

The other way around, when holding on to their galactic
conjectures, they are at a loss how to account for a steady 20”.5
stellar aberration. For in that scheme our earth, dragged along by
the sun, joins in this minor star's 250 km/sec revolution around
the center of the Milky Way. If, for instance, in March we indeed
would be moving parallel to the sun's motion, our velocity would
become 250+30 = 280 km/sec, and in September 250-30 = 220
km/sec. The “aberration of starlight,” according to post-
Copernican doctrine, depends on the ratio of the velocity of the
earth to the speed of light. As that velocity changes the ratio
changes. Hence Bradley's 20”.496 should change, too.
But it does
not.
Therefore, there is truly a fly in this astronomical ointment,
paraded and promoted as a truth.


 ”Not true,” the theorists will object, “such out-dated reasoning in
a space knowing place cuts no ice with us. Relativity has no
difficulty with that kind of supposed contradiction.” I dare to
differ. Their Einsteinian panacea, foreshadowed by the
prevarications of Fresnel's “We cannot decide,” Lorentz's “We
cannot measure
,” and Poincaré's “We cannot observe" is mere
eyewash
.

Consider : according to the ruling paradigm, it makes no
physical difference whether I declare either the earth to move
with respect to everything else at rest, or declare the earth to be at
rest with respect to sun and stars moving around. Starting from an
earth at rest, and hence aberration being absent, then whatever the
truth, the annual standard size circlets of all the stars are real and
not caused by our 29.8 km/sec orbital velocity. Instead of a
heliocentric “aberration,” we are confronted with a geocentric
parallax, and these parallaxes being practically the same size for
all stars, these stars must be at the same distance from us. This
points to the existence of the stellatum of old.

This will be judged to be patently “unthinkable” or worse.
Bradley's unobservable and by Airy's failure emasculated “stellar
aberration” remains indispensable for holding on to a Big Bang
and a universe expanding into space or expanding space.
Manifestly, such a post- Copernican cosmos could not differ
much physically from the pre- Copernican one. To say that this is
a difference of motion only is nonsense. It allows me to agree
with Stephen W. Hawking: “You cannot disprove a theory by
finding even a single observation that disagrees with the
predictions of the theory.


Conclusion: Einstein's cure-all cures
nothing!
Assuredly, I do not claim that the foregoing proves my
modified Tychonian hypothesis. Experimentally, however, it
undoubtedly has the soundest credentials.
More than three
centuries of efforts to disprove it have already come to naught.
The pseudo-heliocentric universe popularized for the benefit of
the man-in-the-street has, in fact, not a leg to stand on.


2. In Galileo's time Solar System has been perceived very differently in relation to today's science. Why they had to enlarge Solar System so  much? To displace the earth from it's central place in the universe and to transform her into insignificant planet even within Solar System, let alone within the whole Big Bang paradigm (a.k.a. Infinite Universe).

Edwin Hubble was the first to see the centrally located earth. In his 1937 book The Observational Approach to Cosmology, he expresses his deepest concerns about the fact that the red shift of galaxies was isotropic in whatever direction of the sky he looked, concluding:
 
“...Such  a  condition  would  imply  that  we  occupy  a  unique position in the universe, analogous, in a sense, to the ancient  conception  of  a  central  Earth...  This  hypothesis  cannot  be  disproved, but it is unwelcome and would only be accepted as a last  resort  in  order  to  save  the  phenomena.  Therefore  we  disregard this possibility... the unwelcome position of a favored location must be avoided at all costs... such a favored position is intolerable...  Therefore,  in  order  to  restore  homogeneity,  and  to  escape  the  horror  of  a  unique  position...  must  be  compensated  by  spatial curvature. There seems to be no other escape.”

Modern cosmology has tried to explain this phenomenon using  the  Friedmann-Lemaitre-Robertson-Walker (FLRW)  model of  Einstein’s  “spatial  curvature”  equations to  produce a non-Euclidean universe that is expanding as if on the surface of a balloon. As such, all the galaxies will appear to expand away from each other so that no single point could be designated the center of the expansion.

But as Stephen Hawking has admitted,  the  FLRW  model  has  no  evidence  in  its  favor;  rather,  cosmologists choose it merely to preserve the Copernican principle.

He  writes:  “...the  universe  might look  the  same  in  every  direction  as  seen  from  any  other  galaxy, too. This, as we have seen, was  Friedmann’s  second  assumption.  We  have  no  scientific  evidence  for,  or  against,  this  assumption.  We  believe  it  only  on  grounds of modesty.”

His co-author in another book, George F.  R.  Ellis  admits  much  the  same:  “This  assumption  is  made  because it is believed to be unreasonable that we should be near the center  of  the  Universe.” 

Hawking  admits  that  the  evidence  could just as well point to a central earth: “...all this evidence that the  universe  looks  the  same  whichever  direction  we  look  in  might seem to suggest there is something special about our place in the universe. In particular, it might seem that if we observe all other  galaxies  to  be  moving  away  from  us,  then  we  must  be  at  the center of the universe.”

Using  the  simplest  interpretation  of  the  current  cosmological  evidence  concerning  galactic  redshift;  the  anisotropy  of  the  CMB;  gamma-ray  and  X-ray  bursts;  and  quasar  distribution,  as  provided  by  the  2005  Sloan  Digital  Sky  Survey;  the  2001  Wilkinson  Microwave  Anisotropy  Probe  and  other  such  studies,  show  that  the  Earth  is  at  or  very  near  the  center  of  the  universe  and  that  alternative interpretations  advancing  homogeneity and the LCDM universe (e.g., “the center is everywhere and nowhere due to an expanding universe”) are contradicted by the di- quad- and octu-pole outcomes of the CMB; the large void area at the observation point; and the consistent concentric and quantized z-factor of the redshift around the observation point. Further evidence from the Michelson-Morley and Sagnac- type experiments from 1881 through 1932, as well as post-1932 maser and  laser  interferometry,  including  the  Sagnac-based  pre-programming  for  the  Global  Positioning  Satellites,  show that some type of ponderable ether exists, which is in principle agreement with Quantum Mechanics but opposed to Special Relativity. It is postulated that interpretations of the historic interferometer experiments that were said to yield a “null” result were simply the result of presuming, without proof, that the Earth was translating at 30km/sec around the sun, which leads to the conclusion that Special Relativity was invented precisely to  avoid  having  to  answer  the  Michelson-Morley  experiment  by  admitting  to  a  motionless  Earth.  In  actuality,  none of the interferometer experiments showed a “null” result, and as such they give convincing evidence of an ether  drift  that  can  be  easily  accounted  for  within  the  margin  of  an  ether-universe  rotating  around  a  non-rotating and non-translating Earth.

So, over the last decade, a number of anomalous cosmological observations have emerged which do not make sense according to the Copernican Principle, the latest being the Planck satellite results of March 2013.  While the science behind the findings is complex, to put it simply, the Copernican Principle requires that any variation in the radiation from the Cosmic Microwave Background (thermal radiation assumed to be left over from the ‘Big Bang’) be more or less randomly distributed throughout the universe.  However, the results of three separate missions, starting with the WMAP satellite in 2001, has shown anomalies in the background radiation which are aligned directly with the plane of our solar system and the equator of the Earth. This never-before-seen alignment of the Earth results in an axis through the universe, which scientists have dubbed the ‘Axis of Evil’, owing to the shocking implications for current models of the cosmos.

Laurence Krauss, American theoretical physicist and cosmologist, commented in 2005:

    "When you look at [the cosmic microwave background] map, you also see that the structure that is observed, is in fact, in a weird way, correlated with the plane of the earth around the sun. Is this Copernicus coming back to haunt us? That’s crazy. We’re looking out at the whole universe. There’s no way there should be a correlation of structure with our motion of the earth around the sun?—?the plane of the earth around the sun?—?the ecliptic. That would say we are truly the center of the universe."
« Last Edit: November 29, 2018, 07:06:34 AM by cikljamas »
"I can't breathe" George Floyd RIP

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cikljamas

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Re: The distortion of science
« Reply #130 on: November 29, 2018, 06:42:52 AM »
Or how about this method of verification :

GEOCENTRIC SCENARIO :

98250 km (Moon's translation across the sky in one hour : in apparently straight line (i subtracted about 3000 km (3500*29=101500))
380 000 km (the distance between the Moon and closer observer on the edge of the Arctic circle)
385 200 km (the distance between the Moon and farther observer on the opposite edge of the Arctic circle)
 
CLOSER OBSERVER :  98250/380 000 = 0,258 (ctg) = 14,496
FARTHER OBSERVER : 98250/385 200 = 0,255 (ctg) = 14,308

THE DIFFERENCE = 0,188 degrees

-----------------------------------------------------------

HELIOCENTRIC SCENARIO :

3500 km (diameter of the Moon)
434 km (the distance which an observer at the Arctic circle crosses in one hour (46,8*111km = 5194,8 km/12 = 432,9)
5200 km (the diameter of the Arctic circle)

CLOSER OBSERVER : 3500-434 = 3066 km/h
FARTHER OBSERVER : 3500+434 = 3934 km/h

CLOSER OBSERVER = 3066/380 000 = 0,00806 (ctg) = 0,462
FARTHER OBSERVER = 3934/385 200 = 0,01021 (ctg) = 0,5851

THE DIFFERENCE = 0,123

------------------------------------------------------------

THE OVERALL DIFFERENCE = 0,188-0,123 = 0,065 degrees

------------------------------------------------------------

0,188/0,005 = 37,6
0,123/0,005 = 24,6

37,6-24,6 = 13 %

or simply :

0,065/0,005 = 13 %

ACCOMPANYING VIDEO : NO EXPERIMENT CAN DETECT EARTH'S MOTION - part 2 :



CONCLUSION :

If the Moon orbits the stationary earth then the observed difference in Moon's translation (across the sun's disc), in one hour period for the two observers positioned on the opposite sides of the Arcitc circle (after applying my method of verification explained in the video above) will be 0,188 degrees.

However, if the real motion of the Moon around the spinning earth were in the same direction in which earth allegedly turns on it's axis, then the difference in the apparent translation of the Moon (across the sun's disc), in one hour period (after applying my method of verification explained in the video above) would be 0,123 degrees.
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Themightykabool

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Re: The distortion of science
« Reply #131 on: November 29, 2018, 10:09:20 AM »
I would estimate your calculations are wrong...

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JackBlack

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Re: The distortion of science
« Reply #132 on: November 29, 2018, 11:59:19 AM »
@Jack, don't make me laugh!
1. I don't know what causes stellar aberration, and i don't have to know the real reason which lies behind that phenomena.
That's right. All you need to know is that under the aether model it requires a relative motion between Earth and the aether.
It is this, combined with MM which shows that there is no relative motion between Earth and the aether that you need to address.
If an aether exists, either Earth is moving relative to it, or it is not. You can't have it both ways.

That is the massive paradox that caused the aether model to be discarded.
This is what you need to address, either accepting that the aether model is garbage, or providing some defence of how this impossibility is possible.

Anything else you say is irrelevant.
That includes any other topics.

Like I said, pick one topic and stick to it. Stop jumping between different piles of refuted garbage to try and pretend you haven't had your ass handed to you yet again.
(And yes, that includes your zig-zag BS which has also been refuted repeatedly and while relies upon a complete ignorance of the difference between angular and linear velocities).
GROW UP!
Pick one topic and stick to it.

If you want to discuss the aether, tell us how the Earth is both moving and at rest w.r.t. the aether, when that is literally impossible, or accept the aether model is garbage. Then move on.


Why i don't have to know it? Because Airy's failure experiment was designed to determine whether the real reason which causes this phenomena should be assigned to the earth's orbital motion or not!
Stop lying. It was accepted that stellar aberration was caused by the relative motion of Earth through the aether. (Which was later discovered to be wrong as there is no aether).
Airy's failure was designed to determine if Earth was moving with the aether at rest, or if the aether was moving with Earth at rest. It still relied upon relative motion between Earth and the aether. But as pointed out repeatedly, IT WAS A COMPLETE AND UTTER FAILURE RECORDING NO RESULTS OF MERIT! Not simply a null result, but no results. This is because it relies upon the water dragging the light, but not dragging the light, which again makes no sense.

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cikljamas

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Re: The distortion of science
« Reply #133 on: November 29, 2018, 04:19:00 PM »
Why i don't have to know it? Because Airy's failure experiment was designed to determine whether the real reason which causes this phenomena should be assigned to the earth's orbital motion or not!
Stop lying. It was accepted that stellar aberration was caused by the relative motion of Earth through the aether. (Which was later discovered to be wrong as there is no aether).
Airy's failure was designed to determine if Earth was moving with the aether at rest, or if the aether was moving with Earth at rest. It still relied upon relative motion between Earth and the aether. But as pointed out repeatedly, IT WAS A COMPLETE AND UTTER FAILURE RECORDING NO RESULTS OF MERIT! Not simply a null result, but no results. This is because it relies upon the water dragging the light, but not dragging the light, which again makes no sense.

You either don't know what you are talking about or you are deliberately lying...Whatever it is, you are drowning in your outrages lies and unbelievable stupidities, so don't have children, and i mean it!!!






GEOCENTRICITY - An animated explanation of "Airy's Failure" experiment. :
"I can't breathe" George Floyd RIP

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JackBlack

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Re: The distortion of science
« Reply #134 on: November 29, 2018, 04:39:46 PM »
You either don't know what you are talking about or you are deliberately lying...Whatever it is, you are drowning in your outrages lies and unbelievable stupidities, so don't have children, and i mean it!!!
I see you are projecting to avoid the massive issues in your claims.

Again, if the aether model of light propagation is true:
stellar aberration requires that there is relative motion between Earth and the aether. (Note: this is even backed up in your last image where you state "proved that it was the aether drifting past the stationary surface of the Earth" meaning relative motion between the Earth and aether.)
MM shows that there is no relative motion between Earth and the aether.

This means Earth must be moving and stationary w.r.t. the aether.
This is impossible.
You need to address this paradox. Anything else you say is just irrelevant distraction.
Now can you address it?

Or can you just try for more pathetic distractions?

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cikljamas

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Re: The distortion of science
« Reply #135 on: November 29, 2018, 05:06:52 PM »
Hey, idiot, if i were you i wouldn't even take my next breath, seriously!!!
"I can't breathe" George Floyd RIP

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JackBlack

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Re: The distortion of science
« Reply #136 on: November 29, 2018, 05:29:11 PM »
Hey, idiot, if i were you i wouldn't even take my next breath, seriously!!!
So now resorting to insults and wishing me dead.
I take it that means you are angry that I can continue with this one simple point to show you are completely ignoring science?

Again, do you have an answer to this paradox? If not can you admit that the aether model is wrong?

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rabinoz

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Re: The distortion of science
« Reply #137 on: November 29, 2018, 06:54:05 PM »
@Jack, don't make me laugh!

1. I don't know what causes stellar aberration, and i don't have to know the real reason which lies behind that phenomena. Why i don't have to know it? Because Airy's failure experiment was designed to determine whether the real reason which causes this phenomena should be assigned to the earth's orbital motion or not!
Well, I do know the real cause of stellar aberration and if you'd get your nose out of writings when there was no consensus as to the means of transport of light you might learn too!
Maybe take a look at:
          Geocentrism and Stellar Aberration: Illuminating the Earth’s Motion by Dr. Alec MacAndrew and David Palm
and
          Reference Frames for Stellar Aberration by Milton Rothman
both of these look the motion of binary stars to show that stellar aberration must be caused by the earth's motion and not that of the stars.

But, since these are all "modern" you'll ignore then as you did ARISTARCHUS « Reply #22 on: November 17, 2018, 09:01:15 AM »

But since you've now resorted to nothing more than argumentum ad hominem as you evidence it seems time to leave you to your own devices.

And when you have to resort to "conspiracy theories" to claim that this sort of thing is fake you are getting desperate.

Photos from EPIC on DSCVR do show the earth's rotation, but it is a bit slow - a bit like watching grass grow.
This site lets you step through successive photos NASA, DSCOVR: EPIC, Earth Polychromatic Imaging Camera

If you want if actually moving, here it is:
A NASA camera aboard the Deep Space Climate Observatory (DSCOVR)
satellite captured a unique view of the moon as it moved in front of the
sunlit side of Earth last month. The series of test images shows the fully
illuminated “dark side” of the moon that is never visible from Earth.

The images were captured by NASA’s Earth Polychromatic Imaging Camera (EPIC),
a four megapixel CCD camera and telescope on the DSCOVR satellite orbiting
1 million miles from Earth. From its position between the sun and Earth,
DSCOVR conducts its primary mission of real-time solar wind monitoring
for the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA).

This animation features actual satellite images of the far side of the moon,
illuminated by the sun, as it crosses between the DSCOVR spacecraft's
Earth Polychromatic Imaging Camera (EPIC) and telescope, and the Earth
 - one million miles away. Credits: NASA/NOAA

But it all fits together with


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cikljamas

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Re: The distortion of science
« Reply #138 on: December 06, 2018, 07:50:42 AM »
Some more distortion of science :



210 * 12800 = 2 688 000
2 688 000 / 42,5 = 63247 km/h (earth's orbital speed)
63247 * 24 * 365 = 554 043 720 (the length of earth's alleged orbit)
554 043 720 / 3,14 / 2 = 88 223 522 (the distance to the sun according to Ole Roemer's contemporaries Wendelin (1635) and Horrocks (1639) : 14000 earth's radii)

88 223 522 / 660s (11 minutes) = 133 672 km/s

So, 133 672 km/s is the real number which Ole Roemer computed for the speed of light.

However, in all textbooks on astronomy you will find quite another numbers, for example :

EXAMPLE NO 1 :
Roemer's estimate for the speed of light was 140,000 miles/second, which is remarkably good considering the method employed.
Source : https://www.physlink.com/education/askexperts/ae22.cfm

EXAMPLE NO 2 :
Based on these observations, Roemer calculated that it would take light about 22 minutes to cross the diameter of Earth's orbit. Combining that value with earlier measurements of the Earth's semimajor axis (orbital radius) (described here and here) gives a speed of light of about 210,000 kilometers per second.
Source : http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/about-us/148-people-in-astronomy/history-of-astronomy/general-questions/993-who-first-measured-the-speed-of-light-intermediate

WHY LIE???

Maybe because of this :

EXAMPLE NO 1 :

140 000 miles = 224 000 km
224 000 * 660s = 147 840 000 km (the distance to the sun according to modern astronomy)

EXAMPLE NO 2 :

210 000 km * 660s = 138 600 000 km (the distance to the sun according to Cassini (1672) - 21700 earth's radii)

However, both deceptive calculations boil down to nothing since :

300 000 km/s (the real speed of light) * 660s = 198 000 000 km

ON TOP OF THAT :
1. In Helden’s 2010 book from the University of Chicago Press makes it clear that neither Flamsteed’s nor Cassini’s measurements deserve much credibility, which is why Halley didn’t believe in the results.

2.
In 1653, an astronomer named Christian Huygens (pronounced "Hoy-gens")
was the first to find this distance. He used a very clever idea (VERY CLEVER, INDEED - LOL),
but as you'll see in a moment, he had to make a guess about one of
his numbers. By pure blind coincidence (LOL), he guessed correctly and so
his measurement of the AU is essentially correct. However, since his
determination was not rigorous, the actual first measurement is
usually credited to Cassini, who used a method involving getting
the parallax of Mars. Cassini did this in 1672.


So how did Huygens do it? He knew that Venus showed phases when viewed
through a telescope, just like our own Moon does. He also knew that
the actual phase of Venus depended on the angle it made with the Sun
as seen from the Earth. When Venus is between the Earth and Sun, the
far side is lit, and so we see Venus as being dark. When
Venus is on the far side of the Sun from the Earth, we can see the
entire half facing us as lit, and Venus looks like a full Moon.
When Venus, the Sun and Earth form a right angle, Venus looks half
lit, like a half Moon.


Now, if you can measure any two internal angles in a triangle,
and know the length of one of its sides, you can determine the
length of another side. Since Huygens knew the Sun-Venus-Earth angle
(from the phases), and he could directly measure the Sun-Earth-Venus
angle (simply by measuring Venus' apparent distance from the Sun on the sky)
all he needed was to know the distance from Earth to Venus. Then he could
use some simple trigonometry to get the Earth-Sun distance.


This is where Huygens tripped up. He knew that if you measured the
apparent size of an object, and knew its true size, you could
find the distance to that object. Huygens thought he knew the actual size
of Venus using such unscientific techniques as numerology and mysticism
.

Using these methods he thought that Venus was the same size as the Earth.
As it turn out, that is correct! Venus is indeed very close to being the same
size as the Earth, but in this case he got it right by pure chance.
But since he had the right number, he wound up getting the about the correct
number for the AU.

THE DISTORTION OF SCIENCE AT IT'S BEST!!!


 
« Last Edit: December 06, 2018, 07:52:38 AM by cikljamas »
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JCM

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Re: The distortion of science
« Reply #139 on: December 06, 2018, 09:25:20 AM »
*long list  of complaints about scientists 400 years ago *

THE DISTORTION OF SCIENCE AT IT'S BEST!!!

Sometimes a scientist needs to make a best guess estimate if they lived 400 years ago with limited technology.   What their level of inaccuracy has to do with today’s science means what exactly? 

Time has shown their work to be pretty accurate for their time.  Would not misrepresenting modern science by ignoring the last 300 plus years of advancement be the real DISTORTION OF SCIENCE AT IT'S BEST!!!

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JackBlack

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Re: The distortion of science
« Reply #140 on: December 06, 2018, 11:58:01 AM »
Some more distortion of science :
[snip]
THE DISTORTION OF SCIENCE AT IT'S BEST!!!
Well at least you have started labelling your posts honestly.

I saw nothing in there regarding the massive paradox you need to solve.
Don't think disappearing for a few days will make me forget.

Remember, if the aether model is correct, Earth must be moving and stationary w.r.t. the aether.
That is impossible.
So how does that work?
You either need to provide an explanation, or admit the aether model is wrong.

Only once you have done that can we move on.

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cikljamas

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Re: The distortion of science
« Reply #141 on: December 07, 2018, 04:52:41 AM »
Being a notorious liar (JackBlack) is perfectly consistent with being an ardent follower of one another notorious liar (Einstein).

Michelson wrote about the "decidedly negative result" (IN A SENSE THAT HE FAILED TO DETECT THE EXPECTED DEVIATION OF THE INTERFERENCE FRINGES FROM THE ZERO (0,40 OF A FRINGE), NOT IN A SENSE THAT HE FAILED TO DETECT ANY DEVIATION WHATSOEVER) in a letter to Lord Rayleigh in August 1887:

    The Experiments on the relative motion of the earth and ether have been completed and the result decidedly negative. The expected deviation of the interference fringes from the zero should have been 0.40 of a fringe – the maximum displacement was 0.02 and the average much less than 0.01 – and then not in the right place. As displacement is proportional to squares of the relative velocities it follows that if the ether does slip past the relative velocity is less than one sixth of the earth’s velocity.
    —?Albert Abraham Michelson, 1887

Should i remind you once again to this example of human dishonesty :

There are several newspaper accounts indicating a certain tension between Albert Einstein and Dayton Miller, since the early 1920s at least. In June of 1921, Einstein wrote to the physicist Robert Millikan: "I believe that I have really found the relationship between gravitation and electricity, assuming that the Miller experiments are based on a fundamental error. Otherwise, the whole relativity theory collapses like a house of cards." (Clark 1971, p.328)

Speaking before scientists at the University of Berlin, Einstein said the ether drift experiments at Cleveland showed zero results, while on Mount Wilson they showed positive results. Therefore, altitude influences results. In addition, temperature differences have provided a source of error.

"The trouble with Prof. Einstein is that he knows
nothing about my results." Dr. Miller said. "He has
been saying for thirty years that the interferometer
experiments in Cleveland showed negative results. We
never said they gave negative results, and they did
not in fact give negative results.
He ought to give
me credit for knowing that temperature differences
would affect the results. He wrote to me in November
suggesting this. I am not so simple as to make no
allowance for temperature.
"
(Cleveland Plain Dealer newspaper, 27 Jan. 1926)

How about this example :

“I have known too, for a long time that we have no argument for the Copernican system, but I shall never dare to be the first to attack it. Don't rush into the wasps' nest. You will bring upon yourself the scorn of the thoughtless multitude… to come forth as the first against opinions, which the world has become fond of - I don't feel the courage.”
ALEXANDER VON HUMBOLDT

What i do find, is that phiosophers and other intellectuals, all Copernicans from Descartes, Spinoza and Leibniz, had established the heliocentric cosmology so solidly over a 300 year period in the universities and publication circles that even the famous scientist von Humboldt was cowed into silence. Just before Darwin's book came out in 1859, Humboldt said: "I have known too far a long time, that we have no arguments for the Copernican system..." Still, fear of "scorn of a thoughtless multitude" prevented him from saying anything. (C. Schoeppfer, The Earth Stands Fast. (Charles Ludwig, Printer, N.Y., 1900), p. 59.)

LINCOLN BARNETT agrees:
“No physical experiment ever proved that the Earth actually is in motion.”

And one of the chief participants in the experiment that bears his name (ALBERT A. MICHELSON), stunned by the results that went counter to his own heliocentric reflex:

“This conclusion directly contradicts the explanation… which presupposes that the Earth moves.”

“Today’s scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality.” Nikola Tesla (1856-1943)

“Einstein’s relativity work is a magnificent mathematical garb which fascinates dazzles and makes people blind to the underlying errors.  The theory is like a beggar clothed in purple; worm ignorant people take for a king…its exponents are brilliant men, but they are metaphysics rather than scientists.” Nikola Tesla


Because of the resolution limits, the Sagnac experiment could never have hoped to detect the rotation of the earth, anymore than the MM experiment could have detected the rotation of its own apparatus. 

What the Sagnac experiment did, however, unequivocally demonstrate was that there was a precedent for the optical detection of rotary
motion.

But relativists, including Einstein, largely discarded this fact for nearly three decades. 

An open-loop Sagnac effect (dt= 2A?/c2) is today well established for the paths of electromagnetic signals around the planet: employing the GPS satellite relay system, delays have been measured by clocks on the order of fractions of microseconds in the W-E transmission with respect to the E-W transmission.[/quote] 

So, an open-loop Sagnac effect proves that there is a rotational motion of an aether around the stationary earth.

Why?

Because an open-loop Sagnac effect can be the consequence of earth's rotation within stationary aether or it can be the result of the rotation of an aether around the stationary earth.

Since all interferometry experiments which were designed to detect earth's orbital motion yielded too small fringe shifts (hence "null result"), then there is no way that an open-loop Sagnac effect can be ascribed to the alleged earth's rotational motion, and instead it must be assigned to the rotation of an aether around the stationary earth.

Case closed!

MMX REPLICATED (second part of the video) BEFORE YOUR OWN EYES :

« Last Edit: December 07, 2018, 05:23:37 AM by cikljamas »
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JackBlack

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Re: The distortion of science
« Reply #142 on: December 07, 2018, 12:25:15 PM »
Being a notorious liar (JackBlack) is perfectly consistent with being an ardent follower of one another notorious liar (Einstein).
I see you're projecting again.
I'm not the one lying here.

NOT IN A SENSE THAT HE FAILED TO DETECT ANY DEVIATION WHATSOEVER
Stop lying. It was in the sense that he failed to detect any deviation which was not within experimental error.
As such, there was no detected shift. Saying there was one is an outright lie.
Regardless all of that is irrelevant, as stellar aberration demanded the shift from 30 km/s.

So if you like, I can make the paradox more specific:
In order for the aether model of light propagation to be correct, then stellar aberration requires that Earth be moving w.r.t. to the aether at ~30 km/s, in roughly a circle; while MMX requires that Earth be stationary or moving at much less than 30 km/s.

Trying to complain about limits of experimental accuracy and the possibility of a tiny velocity doesn't help your case.

Should i remind you once again to this example of human dishonesty :
No, I have seen plenty of examples from you.

And skipping the rest of your BS as you still haven't addressed the paradox.
Quit trying with your pathetic distractions to Sagnac, which don't help your case at all.

Now are you going to address the problem?
Again, stellar aberration demands that Earth move in a roughly circular path through the aether at a velocity of roughly 30 km/s. MMX demands that Earth does not move at any significant velocity through the aether.

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cikljamas

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Re: The distortion of science
« Reply #143 on: December 07, 2018, 02:32:18 PM »
NOT IN A SENSE THAT HE FAILED TO DETECT ANY DEVIATION WHATSOEVER
Stop lying. It was in the sense that he failed to detect any deviation which was not within experimental error.
As such, there was no detected shift. Saying there was one is an outright lie.
Regardless all of that is irrelevant, as stellar aberration demanded the shift from 30 km/s.

Hey clown, either you don't know how to read english or you want to claim that Michelson and Miller were liars, feel free to make your choice, i repeat :

Michelson wrote about the "decidedly negative result" (IN A SENSE THAT HE FAILED TO DETECT THE EXPECTED DEVIATION OF THE INTERFERENCE FRINGES FROM THE ZERO (0,40 OF A FRINGE), NOT IN A SENSE THAT HE FAILED TO DETECT ANY DEVIATION WHATSOEVER) in a letter to Lord Rayleigh in August 1887:

    The Experiments on the relative motion of the earth and ether have been completed and the result decidedly negative. The expected deviation of the interference fringes from the zero should have been 0.40 of a fringe – the maximum displacement was 0.02 and the average much less than 0.01 – and then not in the right place. As displacement is proportional to squares of the relative velocities it follows that if the ether does slip past the relative velocity is less than one sixth of the earth’s velocity.
    —?Albert Abraham Michelson, 1887

Should i remind you once again to this example of human dishonesty :

There are several newspaper accounts indicating a certain tension between Albert Einstein and Dayton Miller, since the early 1920s at least. In June of 1921, Einstein wrote to the physicist Robert Millikan: "I believe that I have really found the relationship between gravitation and electricity, assuming that the Miller experiments are based on a fundamental error. Otherwise, the whole relativity theory collapses like a house of cards." (Clark 1971, p.328)

Speaking before scientists at the University of Berlin, Einstein said the ether drift experiments at Cleveland showed zero results, while on Mount Wilson they showed positive results. Therefore, altitude influences results. In addition, temperature differences have provided a source of error.

"The trouble with Prof. Einstein is that he knows
nothing about my results." Dr. Miller said. "He has
been saying for thirty years that the interferometer
experiments in Cleveland showed negative results. We
never said they gave negative results, and they did
not in fact give negative results.
He ought to give
me credit for knowing that temperature differences
would affect the results. He wrote to me in November
suggesting this. I am not so simple as to make no
allowance for temperature.
"
(Cleveland Plain Dealer newspaper, 27 Jan. 1926)

Again, stellar aberration demands that Earth move in a roughly circular path through the aether at a velocity of roughly 30 km/s. MMX demands that Earth does not move at any significant velocity through the aether.
Let me see if you know at least that much :
Why stellar aberration demands that Earth move in a roughly circular path through the aether at a velocity of roughly 30 km/s (within heliocentric model, of course)??? Why exactly at a velocity of roughly 30 km/s?
« Last Edit: December 07, 2018, 02:37:56 PM by cikljamas »
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Stash

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Re: The distortion of science
« Reply #144 on: December 07, 2018, 05:54:24 PM »
Is it conceivable for you to answer the paradox "if the aether model is correct, Earth must be moving and stationary w.r.t. the aether.", in your own words in perhaps a paragraph or less. (You're not winning any arguments with the copy/pasting of yards of text).


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JackBlack

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Re: The distortion of science
« Reply #145 on: December 07, 2018, 05:59:58 PM »
Hey clown, either you don't know how to read english or you want to claim that Michelson and Miller were liars, feel free to make your choice, i repeat :
Projecting yet again I see.

I repeat:
Stellar aberration demands that Earth move in a roughly circular path through the aether at a velocity of roughly 30 km/s. MMX demands that Earth does not move at any significant velocity through the aether.

Pretending MM got a non null result and thus the Earth might be moving through the aehter at some speed much lower than the required 30 km/s doesn't help your case.

How can Earth be both moving w.r.t. the aether at 30 km/s while at the same time have a speed much smaller than that (if any at all).

Let me see if you know at least that much :
Why stellar aberration demands that Earth move in a roughly circular path through the aether at a velocity of roughly 30 km/s (within heliocentric model, of course)??? Why exactly at a velocity of roughly 30 km/s?
So you know your claims are pure garbage? You know stellar aberration, under the aether model, requires significant velocity and were hoping to get out of it by allowing a much smaller velocity and pretending MM reported that?

This angle for stellar aberration isn't just pulled out of thin air.
For the aether model of light propagation, it is based upon the relative velocity of Earth through the aether and the speed of light through the aether.
First considering light propagating perpendicular to Earth's motion: (the simple one)
For a given time interval (t), light will move down a distance of t*c, while Earth moves a distance of t*v.
This allows us to construct a right angle triangle, where the angle of aberration (from vertical) is given by atan(t*v/(t*c))=atan(v/c).

For a more general light source, coming it an an angle from vertical of a, then a similar argument is made, however the light is broken into its x and y components.
Letting the y component be that in the direction of motion of Earth, with Earth moving in the positive y direction, and x be that perpendicular to Earth's motion, however positive being going down.
Now the velocity of the light in the x direction will be c*cos(a), and that for the y direction will be c*sin(a).
The component in the y direction (that is with Earth) is cancelled by Earth's motion. For example, if Earth perfectly matched it, then there would be no aberration.
As I don't particularly care about sign for determining the speed (as I just want speed, not direction), then which way we subtract is not important as that just determines the sign.
For simplicity, that means for our right angle triangle, one side has length c*cos(a), while the other has a length of c*sin(a)-v. (I have already divided by t).
Now that means the observed angle will be atan((c*sin(a)-v/c*cos(a))=atan((sin(a)-v/c)/cos(a))=atan(tan(a)-v/(c*cos(a)))
The offset for abberation will be a minus this value:
a-atan((sin(a)-v/c)/cos(a))=a-atan(tan(a)-v/(c*cos(a)))

Now we could try figuring it out precisely, but lest see where the value is greatest.
Well, we already know that if a=0, then the angle is atan(v/c).
If is 90, then we end up with no need for a change as it is going straight into the telescope. That alone should be enough to indicate that it is going to be at a maximum when a=0. If you need more i can do the differentiation for you.

This means the maximum aberration you should ever get is atan(v/c).
Now, your own references indicate that you get an aberration of ~20 arc seconds.
The tan of 20 arc seconds gives us 0.00009696273=v/c.
That means v=0.00009696273*c=~0.00009696273*300000000=29088.8209577 m/s=~29 km/s.

Happy now?

So you have stellar aberration giving a minimum velocity of roughly 29 km/s, and MM giving a maximum velocity of less than 5 km/s.

This is an impossibility. 29 km/s is not less than 5 km/s.
This means the aether model is wrong.


(As a side note, this is also one way to calculate the distance to the sun. Assuming Earth orbits the sun, with a period matching the year, in a roughly circular orbit, then with the velocity obtained from stellar aberration we can calculate the circumference of Earth's orbit and thus the radius (distance to the sun).)

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rabinoz

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Re: The distortion of science
« Reply #146 on: December 07, 2018, 07:27:16 PM »
I'll put a bit in first about stellar aberration and sort out your blatant deception in the earlier post when I get the time to finish it.

Again, stellar aberration demands that Earth move in a roughly circular path through the aether at a velocity of roughly 30 km/s. MMX demands that Earth does not move at any significant velocity through the aether.
Let me see if you know at least that much :
Why stellar aberration demands that Earth move in a roughly circular path through the aether at a velocity of roughly 30 km/s (within heliocentric model, of course)??? Why exactly at a velocity of roughly 30 km/s?

Stellar Aberration causes the apparent position of stars to vary in both directions about ±20.5 seconds of arc every six months. What ether motion could cause that?
Quote
Stellar Aberration.
In stellar aberration the position of a star when viewed with a telescope swings each side of a central position by about 20.5 seconds of arc every six months.
This amount of swing is the amount expected when considering the speed of earth's travel in its orbit.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
The amount of stellar aberration, α, is given by: So:
The speed at which the earth goes round the sun, v = 30 km/s, and the speed of light is c = 299,792,458 m/s which gives α = ±20.5 seconds of arc every six months.


On the right is shown how the stars appear to move throughout the year:    Stars at the ecliptic poles appear to move in circles, stars exactly in the ecliptic plane move in lines,
and stars at intermediate angles move in ellipses. Shown here are the apparent motions of stars
with the ecliptic latitudes corresponding to these cases, and with ecliptic longitude of 270°.
       
It is the reversal of stellar aberration that is the big clue!

Not only that, if stellar aberration were caused by the motion of the stars and not of earth then binary stars would show a large selective shift as the components rotated about each other.
No such motion is observed! See Geocentrism and Stellar Aberration: Illuminating the Earth’s Motion  March 12, 2018 by David Palm which contains:
Quote from: David Palm
Reason #4:  We test b) in Reason #3 empirically by observing rapidly orbiting binary stars . If aberration is caused by the velocity of the source, then the very high velocity of orbiting binary stars would cause an aberration in their observed position, and because the direction of their velocity is rapidly changing as they orbit, we would observe a change in the direction of the aberration. The consequence of this is that the observed separation of orbiting binaries would appear to be larger than they are and from what we observe – they would appear to be separated much further apart.  That is not what we observe, hence the simple and straightforward explanation is shown to be the correct one – aberration is caused by the motion of the observer, and in the case of Earth-based observers by the motion of the Earth.

[De Sitter’s careful observations of binary stars in the early twentieth century substantiated the view that aberration does not depend on the motion of the source: “In 1913, Willem de Sitter argued . . . a star in a double-star system would usually have an orbit that caused it to have alternating approach and recession velocities, and light emitted from different parts of the orbital path would then travel towards us at different speeds. . . . That is, Kepler’s laws of motion would apparently be violated for a distant observer. De Sitter made a study of double stars and found no cases where the stars’ computed orbits appeared non-Keplerian” (link; see also E. Eisner, “Aberration of Light from Binary Stars-a Paradox?“)
Like it or not, Mr  cikljamas, "E pur si muove[/b]".
Quote
And yet it moves . . . . (Italian: E pur si muove . . . . )
a phrase attributed (probably incorrectly) to the Italian mathematician, physicist and philosopher Galileo Galilei.



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sandokhan

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Re: The distortion of science
« Reply #147 on: December 07, 2018, 10:35:10 PM »
Not only that, if stellar aberration were caused by the motion of the stars and not of earth then binary stars would show a large selective shift as the components rotated about each other.

You haven't done your homework on this one either.

Dr. William H. Cantrell explains:

The Emeritus Professor of Electrical Engineering Petr Beckmann proposed that the outdated term "aether" could be replaced with the more modern term "gravity." Clearly, a gravitational field would have characteristics very similar to a partially entrained aether. Both would cause the bending of light rays. Gravity would be strongest near the surface of the planet where the partially entrained aether was most dense. Light would still behave in the same manner, if the speed of light is constant with respect to the source of the dominant gravitational field. This would square with all of the known experimental data because in nearly every case, the observer has always been tied to the Earth-bound frame of reference—so we substitute the word "gravity" for the word "aether." Obviously gravity exists and we know that, although gravity is "emitted" by the Earth, it does not rotate with it. So this is a very plausible replacement for a partially entrained aether.

The double-star evidence is often used to discount alternative theories such as this one. Consider a binary star system revolving around its common center of mass, located a considerable distance from Earth. According to Beckmann’s theory, each star emits light at a velocity of c with respect to the source of its own gravitational field. Given the proper orientation in the ecliptic with respect to the center of mass, the velocity of light initially emitted is c + v from one star and c – v from the other (assuming a tangential velocity of revolution, v, for both stars). As each star revolves about the other, their roles will reverse as will the sinusoidal ± v light speed component from each. Although small at first, if any difference in velocity were to remain in effect over the years or centuries it would take for the two sources of starlight to reach the Earth, the slower light from one star (at a given point in their revolution) would never catch up with faster light from the other star, even if given a slight head start due to fortuitous positioning. This would cause peculiar visual effects on Earth that astronomers simply do not observe—unusual Doppler shifts and other anomalies.

But there is more to Beckmann’s theory. The gravitational fields of the two stars will, of course, merge into one combined field at a suitable distance from their common center of mass, and the light from the two stars will transition to a common value of c. This, however, is not the end of the story. As the starlight traverses the heavens, it will speed up and slow down so as to always propagate at the speed of light with respect to whatever source of gravitational field it encounters. Upon entering our solar system, the starlight will transition to a heliocentric frame of reference, and upon encountering the Earth’s gravitational field, it will adjust once again to speed c with respect to our own reference frame. This is definitely heresy—the two sources of starlight will indeed travel with two different speeds initially, before stabilizing at a common velocity. And this velocity will change as the starlight enters our own solar system, and change yet again as it enters the gravitational pull of the Earth. The speed of transition will, of course, be gradual as one gravitational field yields to another more dominant field in its local neighborhood. This is an intriguing "make-sense" theory, not only because it replaces the partially entrained aether theory described earlier, but because it also squares with the Pioneer 10 and 11 deep-space radio data (and probably with the Venus radar data from the 1960s).


"It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong."

Richard P. Feynman


Arago showed that a light beam (pointed toward or away from Earth's supposed orbit) had the same refraction in glass as the refraction of starlight in glass.

It always showed the Earth at rest in the ether.

Then, Fresnel came up with the experiment that bears his name.

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg2054512#msg2054512 (Fresnel formula hoax)

Then, Fizeau.

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg2053484#msg2053484 (Fizeau experiment hoax)

However, Hoek put an end to the debate regarding the stellar aberration.

Mascart did the same thing.




Hoek and Mascart experiments:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1956136#msg1956136

Martinus Hoek, “Determination de la vitesse avec laquelle est entrainée une onde
lumineuse traversant un milieu en mouvement,” Arch. Neerl., 1868, 3, pp. 180-185;
and 1869, 4, pp. 443-450

"In 1868, M. Hoek, an astronomer from Utrecht, split a light beam so that it would travel in opposite directions, and he had the beams travel through both water and air. Again, since light travels slower in water, then as the light beams meet back at the starting point, one beam will come in slower than the other and cause what is known as “fringes” on the receiving plate, that is, alternating light and dark patterns. Working on the idea that as the Earth moved through space it was doing so against the ether, which creates friction against the light (and which Fresnel described as a “drag”), if the apparatus of Hoek’s experiment were turned in the direction of the Earth’s movement, and then subsequently perpendicular to it, there would not only be fringes but a noticeable shifting of the fringes.

To his surprise, Hoek noticed no significant difference in the fringes, not in accord with an Earth supposedly moving 30 km/sec."

Mascart Experiment

E. Mascart, "Sur les modifications qu'eprouve la lumiere par suite du mouvement de la source lumineuse", Ann. de l'Ecole norm. 1, 1872, 157-214

Still another experiment was performed just one year after Airy’s findings to test for the motion of the Earth. In 1872 Eleuthère Elie Nicolas Mascart devised an experiment in which he could detect the motion of the Earth through ether by measuring the rotation of the plane of polarization of light propagated along the axis of a quartz crystal. Mascart was awarded the 1873 Grand Prix of the Paris Academy of Sciences for this work

Polarization is a phenomenon of white light, which propagates along the axis of forward movement at many different angles but is reduced to just one angle. Polarizers are filters containing long-chain polymer molecules that are oriented in one specific position. As such, the incident light vibrating in the same plane as the polymer molecules is the only light absorbed, while light vibrating at right angles to the plane is passed through the polarizer. Mascart set up the experiment so that if the Earth were passing through the ether at the expected clip of 30 km/sec, then the light’s plane of polarization would be affected. Mascart found no such results. His experiment was just another indication that Earth was not moving.


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JackBlack

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Re: The distortion of science
« Reply #148 on: December 08, 2018, 12:59:11 AM »
You haven't done your homework on this one either.
Stop bringing up irrelevant BS.
You still need to provide a formula, with an explanation of how long it takes for light to propagate around a loop.
If you can't figure out something as simple as that, you shouldn't be discussing anything else.

Now can you answer the simple question:
How long does it take the light to go around the stationary ring?
For completeness, and to avoid confusion, we will have l1 for arm1, l2 for arm 2, l3 for arm 3 and l4 for arm 4.

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rabinoz

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Re: The distortion of science
« Reply #149 on: December 08, 2018, 01:17:17 AM »
Not only that, if stellar aberration were caused by the motion of the stars and not of earth then binary stars would show a large selective shift as the components rotated about each other.

You haven't done your homework on this one either.
Dr. William H. Cantrell explains:
The Emeritus Professor of Electrical Engineering Petr Beckmann proposed that the outdated term "aether" could be replaced with the more modern term "gravity."
I'll consider what you write more seriously when you take this seriously.
Quote from: William H. Cantrell, Ph.D.
A Dissident View of Relativity Theory IE Editorial, Issue 59
No doubt the average citizen assumes that relativity theory is vital to our modern society. In truth it has almost no role to play, except in a few narrow branches of science. For example, the Apollo program to land a man on the moon was a complete success as a result of the physics of Sir Isaac Newton—relativity theory did not play a role.
Maybe I'm not an "average citizen" but I've been long aware of that and often written that the Newtonian laws are extremely accurate within almost all the solar system.

It would seem that either you haven't done your homework on this one or don't accept your own references.
If you don't accept your own references why should I?

Quote from: sandokhan
Clearly, a gravitational field would have characteristics very similar to a partially entrained aether. Both would cause the bending of light rays.
It takes an immense gravitational field to bend light.

Please explain in detail how "the bending of light rays" might cause stellar aberration, an effect due to a transverse velocity?

Then have you even calculated how much stellar aberration might be caused by gravitation?.
This is important because the aberration is independent of the star's distance, size or velocity and is about ±20.5 seconds of arc.
Not only that but it varies sinusoidally over a year.

If the earth were stationary why would stellar aberration have an annual period?

Quote from: sandokhan
Gravity would be strongest near the surface of the planet where the partially entrained aether was most dense. Light would still behave in the same manner, if the speed of light is constant with respect to the source of the dominant gravitational field.
Only if you accept the ballistic theory of light.
Does anybody accept that now?  In any case stellar aberration is observed in all stars, not just binary stars.

Quote from: sandokhan
This would square with all of the known experimental data because in nearly every case, the observer has always been tied to the Earth-bound frame of reference—so we substitute the word "gravity" for the word "aether." Obviously gravity exists and we know that, although gravity is "emitted" by the Earth, it does not rotate with it. So this is a very plausible replacement for a partially entrained aether.

The double-star evidence is often used to discount alternative theories such as this one. Consider a binary star system revolving around its common center of mass, located a considerable distance from Earth. According to Beckmann’s theory, each star emits light at a velocity of c with respect to the source of its own gravitational field. Given the proper orientation in the ecliptic with respect to the center of mass, the velocity of light initially emitted is c + v from one star and c – v from the other (assuming a tangential velocity of revolution, v, for both stars). As each star revolves about the other, their roles will reverse as will the sinusoidal ± v light speed component from each.
Your hypothesis falls flat because binary stars do not exhibit any effects due to the velocity of the component stars.

Quote from: sandokhan
Although small at first, if any difference in velocity were to remain in effect over the years or centuries it would take for the two sources of starlight to reach the Earth, the slower light from one star (at a given point in their revolution) would never catch up with faster light from the other star, even if given a slight head start due to fortuitous positioning. This would cause peculiar visual effects on Earth that astronomers simply do not observe—unusual Doppler shifts and other anomalies.
Sure, your hypothesis might "cause peculiar visual effects on Earth that astronomers simply do not observe" debunking it.

But doppler (red/blue) shifts are observed for binary stars.