How birds fly and defeating the gravity

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Luke 22:35-38

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Re: How birds fly and defeating the gravity
« Reply #150 on: May 12, 2018, 06:24:23 PM »
Let me direct heat towards me and say that I'm a young earth creationist. So neither believe fish evolved into humans nor dinosaurs evolved into birds.
Scripture, facts, science, stats, and logic is how I argue.

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Mikey T.

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Re: How birds fly and defeating the gravity
« Reply #151 on: May 12, 2018, 06:36:43 PM »
Here is a question then.  Can I still consider myself a Christian if I think the bible should not be taken completely literal?  That the meaning is more in the entirety over individual stories or that the lesson is in the morals conveyed over the particulars of said story. 
The normal answer to that question that I get is why I do not attend church currently as I see them all as corrupted by man.

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Luke 22:35-38

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Re: How birds fly and defeating the gravity
« Reply #152 on: May 12, 2018, 07:30:31 PM »
Here is a question then.  Can I still consider myself a Christian if I think the bible should not be taken completely literal?  That the meaning is more in the entirety over individual stories or that the lesson is in the morals conveyed over the particulars of said story. 
The normal answer to that question that I get is why I do not attend church currently as I see them all as corrupted by man.

If you believe that Jesus is your Lord and Savior with your heart, then you're good.
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Ichimaru Gin :]

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Re: How birds fly and defeating the gravity
« Reply #153 on: May 13, 2018, 06:42:36 AM »
This is what you are doing with classification of different life forms.
No, it is more akin to what you and everyone else promoting evolutionary taxonomy.
You discard the attributes of the organism and instead focus on who its parents where.
You don't care that it is a triangle. It's parents were a square, so you say its a square.

Isn't it funny, and a little pathetic that the analogy you are trying to use to describe me is actually describing you?

Eukaryotes have major differences than prokaryotes. Believe it or not! A Eukaryote is excluded from being considered a prokaryote for many reasons and vice versa.
Yes, the primary difference being a nuclear envelope.
But notice how you are completely rejecting evolutionary taxonomy here?
It doesn't matter what attributes they have.
Eukaryotes evolved from prokaryotes. Thus by evolutionary taxonomy, they are both prokaryotes. Eukaryotes would be a subgroup of prokaryotes.
So good job showing why evolutionary taxonomy is stupidity.

Birds share the defining characteristics of dinosaurs. They are part of the grouping!
No they don't.
Just what do you think the attributes of dinosaurs are?

I wonder perhaps if part of your confusion is that you are not familiar with the particular phrasing: birds are avian dinosaurs.
No, I am quite familiar with that terminology. It is used by people who wish to pretend birds are dinosaurs.

To claim humans are fish is just nonsense on your part.
No, it is nonsense on the part of evolutionary taxonomy, the same that claims birds are dinosaurs.
Absolutely wrong. Attributes are not discarded. In fact, being a vertebrate for example, requires a VERY specific characteristic. Perhaps having a backbone and/or spinal column has something to do with it? The same is true for any clade. Therefore, your whole strawman argument falls apart. I know you feel very silly now since you are arguing against a point no one has made.

As for birds specifically, yes they do. One example has to do with specific hip joint morphology which is unique to dinosaurs and differentiates them from other members of the more phylogenetically basal Archosaur group (which they are members of). It is why something like a crocodile is more squat and limited in range of motion by their limbs. They are related and both members of the Archosaur grouping-BUT birds are a part of the dinosaur grouping not only due to common ancestry but they also exhibit the unique, shared characteristics of that classification.

I hope your automated response of clicking on reply is premeditated by the truth in this matter:

Birds are dinosaurs.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2018, 06:45:39 AM by Ichimaru Gin :] »
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JackBlack

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Re: How birds fly and defeating the gravity
« Reply #154 on: May 13, 2018, 02:00:05 PM »
Absolutely wrong. Attributes are not discarded. In fact, being a vertebrate for example, requires a VERY specific characteristic. Perhaps having a backbone and/or spinal column has something to do with it? The same is true for any clade.
No it is not. Not under evolutionary taxonomy.
In evolutionary taxonomy, all that matters is that it evolved from vertebrates. If it did, then it is a vertebrate, regardless of if it still has the attributes of them.

You are arguing against yourself here.

As for birds specifically, yes they do. One example has to do with specific hip joint morphology which is unique to dinosaurs and differentiates them from other members of the more phylogenetically basal Archosaur group (which they are members of).
Are you suggesting that hip joint is the only characteristic of a dinosaur?

not only due to common ancestry but they also exhibit the unique, shared characteristics of that classification.
They are 2 fundamentally different methods.
You either go based upon characteristics, in which case ancestry is irrelevant, or you go based upon the stupid idea of evolutionary taxonomy where ancestor is the only thing that is important.

Birds are dinosaurs.
Just like birds are fish and birds are procaryotes.

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Ichimaru Gin :]

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Re: How birds fly and defeating the gravity
« Reply #155 on: May 13, 2018, 06:34:35 PM »
Absolutely wrong. Attributes are not discarded. In fact, being a vertebrate for example, requires a VERY specific characteristic. Perhaps having a backbone and/or spinal column has something to do with it? The same is true for any clade.
No it is not. Not under evolutionary taxonomy.
In evolutionary taxonomy, all that matters is that it evolved from vertebrates. If it did, then it is a vertebrate, regardless of if it still has the attributes of them.

You are arguing against yourself here.

As for birds specifically, yes they do. One example has to do with specific hip joint morphology which is unique to dinosaurs and differentiates them from other members of the more phylogenetically basal Archosaur group (which they are members of).
Are you suggesting that hip joint is the only characteristic of a dinosaur?

not only due to common ancestry but they also exhibit the unique, shared characteristics of that classification.
They are 2 fundamentally different methods.
You either go based upon characteristics, in which case ancestry is irrelevant, or you go based upon the stupid idea of evolutionary taxonomy where ancestor is the only thing that is important.

Birds are dinosaurs.
Just like birds are fish and birds are procaryotes.
LOL. Phylogenetic organization, the correct name for your "evolution taxonomy", is based upon common ancestry but in addition, each clade is organized and constructed by something called Synapomorphies...AKA characteristics/traits. This is rudimentary Jack. It shouldn't be my job to educate you at this basic of a level if you are going to argue it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synapomorphy

Repent your sins of biology and admit: Birds are dinosaurs.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2018, 06:37:02 PM by Ichimaru Gin :] »
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JackBlack

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Re: How birds fly and defeating the gravity
« Reply #156 on: May 13, 2018, 07:31:08 PM »
LOL. Phylogenetic organization, the correct name for your "evolution taxonomy"
There are multiple names for loads of things.
However, it seems (at least according to wiki) you are almost correct.
There are a few different systems of taxonomy.
The one you are promoting is known by  few names such as cladistics or phylogenetic nomenclature or phylogenetic organization.
Evolutionary taxonomy is slightly different. It still rejects polyphyletic groups but allows paraphyletic groups, and thus under evolutionary taxonomy birds aren't dinosaurs.

in addition, each clade is organized and constructed by something called Synapomorphies
Nope.
A species can be identified by that, but then any descendant of it must still be in that clade.
If a decedent loses that trait, it must still be in that clade.
The only defining characteristic of a clade is a common ancestor.
Any organism with that common ancestor is part of that clade, regardless of attributes.

The whole point is to make the taxa monophyletic, i.e. a clade, rather than being polyphyletic or paraphyletic.
Having a requirement for any specific characteristic breaks that.
Eukaryotes vs prokaryotes and fish are good examples of this.
Prokaryotes are traditionally defined as organisms without a nuclear envelope or other membrane bound organelle.
Eukaryotes are descendents of these but they have a nuclear envelope, and thus don't match that characteristic.
Under standard (or traditional) taxonomy, prokaryotes are a paraphyletic group.
They contain the common ancestor, but not all its descendents.
Likewise with fish. Losing the attributes which would make it a fish, such as being an aquatic animal with gills, would make the creature no longer have those attributes but still be in the clade.
So you either discard cladistics and have paraphyletic groups or you use cladisitics and include the land animals (including humans, birds and reptiles) as fish and eukaryotes as prokaryotes.

It shouldn't be my job to educate you at this basic of a level if you are going to argue it.
I wouldn't call it a basic level, and I would suggest you check to make sure you are correct before trying to "educate" others.
Since you are happy with wiki, why not try some more appropriate links?
Such as:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cladistics
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phylogenetic_nomenclature
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_taxonomy

That last one has a great line in it for you:
Quote
While in phylogenetic nomenclature each taxon must consist of a single ancestral node and all its descendants, evolutionary taxonomy allows for groups to be excluded from their parent taxa (e.g. dinosaurs are not considered to include birds, but to have given rise to them), thus permitting paraphyletic taxa.

And while we are at it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish
Quote
Included in this definition are the living hagfish, lampreys, and cartilaginous and bony fish as well as various extinct related groups. Tetrapods emerged within lobe-finned fishes, so cladistically they are fish as well. However, traditionally fish are rendered paraphyletic by excluding the tetrapods (i.e., the amphibians, reptiles, birds and mammals which all descended from within the same ancestry).

Repent your sins of biology and admit: Birds are dinosaurs.
No.
I might consider it when you admit that birds are fish and birds are prokaryotes.
While you continue to dismiss that I will continue to dismiss cladistics and state that birds are not dinosaurs.

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Ichimaru Gin :]

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Re: How birds fly and defeating the gravity
« Reply #157 on: May 13, 2018, 07:41:22 PM »
LOL. Phylogenetic organization, the correct name for your "evolution taxonomy"
There are multiple names for loads of things.
However, it seems (at least according to wiki) you are almost correct.
There are a few different systems of taxonomy.
The one you are promoting is known by  few names such as cladistics or phylogenetic nomenclature or phylogenetic organization.
Evolutionary taxonomy is slightly different. It still rejects polyphyletic groups but allows paraphyletic groups, and thus under evolutionary taxonomy birds aren't dinosaurs.

in addition, each clade is organized and constructed by something called Synapomorphies
Nope.
A species can be identified by that, but then any descendant of it must still be in that clade.
If a decedent loses that trait, it must still be in that clade.
The only defining characteristic of a clade is a common ancestor.
Any organism with that common ancestor is part of that clade, regardless of attributes.

The whole point is to make the taxa monophyletic, i.e. a clade, rather than being polyphyletic or paraphyletic.
Having a requirement for any specific characteristic breaks that.
Eukaryotes vs prokaryotes and fish are good examples of this.
Prokaryotes are traditionally defined as organisms without a nuclear envelope or other membrane bound organelle.
Eukaryotes are descendents of these but they have a nuclear envelope, and thus don't match that characteristic.
Under standard (or traditional) taxonomy, prokaryotes are a paraphyletic group.
They contain the common ancestor, but not all its descendents.
Likewise with fish. Losing the attributes which would make it a fish, such as being an aquatic animal with gills, would make the creature no longer have those attributes but still be in the clade.
So you either discard cladistics and have paraphyletic groups or you use cladisitics and include the land animals (including humans, birds and reptiles) as fish and eukaryotes as prokaryotes.

It shouldn't be my job to educate you at this basic of a level if you are going to argue it.
I wouldn't call it a basic level, and I would suggest you check to make sure you are correct before trying to "educate" others.
Since you are happy with wiki, why not try some more appropriate links?
Such as:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cladistics
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phylogenetic_nomenclature
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_taxonomy

That last one has a great line in it for you:
Quote
While in phylogenetic nomenclature each taxon must consist of a single ancestral node and all its descendants, evolutionary taxonomy allows for groups to be excluded from their parent taxa (e.g. dinosaurs are not considered to include birds, but to have given rise to them), thus permitting paraphyletic taxa.

And while we are at it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish
Quote
Included in this definition are the living hagfish, lampreys, and cartilaginous and bony fish as well as various extinct related groups. Tetrapods emerged within lobe-finned fishes, so cladistically they are fish as well. However, traditionally fish are rendered paraphyletic by excluding the tetrapods (i.e., the amphibians, reptiles, birds and mammals which all descended from within the same ancestry).

Repent your sins of biology and admit: Birds are dinosaurs.
No.
I might consider it when you admit that birds are fish and birds are prokaryotes.
While you continue to dismiss that I will continue to dismiss cladistics and state that birds are not dinosaurs.
If it loses that trait, it is no longer considered a synapomorphy now is it? Logical fallacy.

Also, you just contradicted yourself entirely. You admit I am promoting phylogenetics. Yet then you say under evolutionary taxonomy, birds aren't dinosaurs. Even though you previously and explicitly said you reject evolutionary taxonomy. Make up your mind.

You keep saying eukaryotes are all descendents of prokaryotes. They share a common ancestor. There is a huge difference.

Remember, birds are dinosaurs.
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Ichimaru Gin :]

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Re: How birds fly and defeating the gravity
« Reply #158 on: May 13, 2018, 08:37:18 PM »
Birds are not fish since fish is not a taxonomic group in systemic biology. So Try again.

If we want to group things without ANY consideration or the most recent common ancestor we can have terrible classification:
Ex: All winged animals are a family! Should a butterfly be considered closely to related to a penguin?
We can even make arbitrary groups:
Ex: All green organisms are a family! Plants are just like frogs! Great!

Fortunately phylogenetics works for good reason. And we can rejoice in knowing birds are dinosaurs!
« Last Edit: May 13, 2018, 08:39:25 PM by Ichimaru Gin :] »
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rabinoz

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Re: How birds fly and defeating the gravity
« Reply #159 on: May 13, 2018, 08:39:33 PM »
If it loses that trait, it is no longer considered a synapomorphy now is it? Logical fallacy.

Also, you just contradicted yourself entirely. You admit I am promoting phylogenetics. Yet then you say under evolutionary taxonomy, birds aren't dinosaurs. Even though you previously and explicitly said you reject evolutionary taxonomy. Make up your mind.

You keep saying eukaryotes are all descendents of prokaryotes. They share a common ancestor. There is a huge difference.

Remember, birds are dinosaurs.
And how is all this slightly relevant to:
How birds fly and defeating the gravity
If Gravity exists How birds can fly and easily without power motors?????
Please don’t explain the birds biomechanics but explain it from the gravity point of view
I’m Waiting logic/scientific answers

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Ichimaru Gin :]

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Re: How birds fly and defeating the gravity
« Reply #160 on: May 13, 2018, 08:51:45 PM »
I think regardless of world model you subscribe to: The simple fact is that the answer lies in energy. The avian dinosaur must have enough energy in store to overcome a negative acceleration. It has adapted a body plan to aid in this task.

My earlier statement that sustained flight is impossible in either model's scenario caused an uproar which I am genuinely confused about. I think it makes perfect sense to expect that the avian dinosaur cannot continually fly without stopping at some point to intake more energy from something like say a food source.

Same thing with mechanical dinosaurs. At some point it must refuel or capture some sort of energy source that allows it to fly.
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rabinoz

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Re: How birds fly and defeating the gravity
« Reply #161 on: May 13, 2018, 10:21:51 PM »
I think regardless of world model you subscribe to: The simple fact is that the answer lies in energy. The avian dinosaur must have enough energy in store to overcome a negative acceleration. It has adapted a body plan to aid in this task.
Yes, the earth model makes no difference, though one's "cause of gravity" might be relevant.
Once a bird (or aircraft) is in the air, the energy requirements to sustain flight can be comparatively small.
Both sailplanes and soaring birds, like condors and eagles, can often gain lift in thermals then glide to another.

My earlier statement that sustained flight is impossible in either model's scenario caused an uproar which I am genuinely confused about. I think it makes perfect sense to expect that the avian dinosaur cannot continually fly without stopping at some point to intake more energy from something like say a food source.

Same thing with mechanical dinosaurs. At some point it must refuel or capture some sort of energy source that allows it to fly.
You're quite correct, of course, that "At some point it must refuel or capture some sort of energy source that allows it to fly."
But what I fail to understand is what why being dinosaurs or simply descended from dinosaurs has any relevance.
Bats and flying foxes are not dinosaurs but can fly well and at speeds up to 160 km/hr.

This book presents all you might want to know and not want to know about Nature's Flyers: Birds, Insects, and the Biomechanics of Flight.
And in a bit simpler form in BIOMECHANICS of FLIGHT.



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Ichimaru Gin :]

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Re: How birds fly and defeating the gravity
« Reply #162 on: May 13, 2018, 10:26:50 PM »
Rab, we are in agreement more than not. This simply won't do  ;D
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JackBlack

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Re: How birds fly and defeating the gravity
« Reply #163 on: May 13, 2018, 10:51:23 PM »
If it loses that trait, it is no longer considered a synapomorphy now is it? Logical fallacy.
Now perhaps you can go back and read what I said.
Under cladistics, the only characteristic is the shared ancestor. Any other trait is irrelevant.
That is because by definition, any descendant must be part of the same clade, regardless of any other trait.
That means the clade would then need some other defining trait.

Also, you just contradicted yourself entirely. You admit I am promoting phylogenetics. Yet then you say under evolutionary taxonomy, birds aren't dinosaurs. Even though you previously and explicitly said you reject evolutionary taxonomy. Make up your mind.
Again, go back and read what I said.
I admitted I made a mistake with the terminology.
I was arguing against cladistics, which is what you are promoting, not evolutionary taxonomy as I thought. Evolutionary taxonomy allows paraphyletic groups, i.e. a descendent can lose the defining trait and thus no longer be part of the group. Cladistics does not, i.e. a descendent can lose the defining trait, but must still be part of the group.

You keep saying eukaryotes are all descendents of prokaryotes. They share a common ancestor. There is a huge difference.
No, there isn't a huge difference. You are just taking my statement and making it more general. There is no disagreement between that statement and my one.
The common ancestor was a prokaryote.
All clades which include all prokaryotes includes the eukaryotes.
Just like all clades which include all fish includes land animals like birds and humans.

Remember, birds are dinosaurs.
Remember, only if birds are fish and birds are prokaryotes.

Birds are not fish since fish is not a taxonomic group in systemic biology. So Try again.
If you want to play that game, neither are dinosaurs.
The group you are thinking of is known as Dinosauria.
So your argument should thus be birds are members of the group Dinosauria.

Or we could just use Pisces, an old taxonomic group pretty much meaning fish.

And if you want to say that members of dinosauria are dinosaurs, then members of Osteichthyes, which under cladistics needs to include humans, would be bony fish.
So instead of humans being fish, they would need to be bony fish.
If people want to use a new system with significantly different meaning, they shouldn't be using the old words.

If we want to group things without ANY consideration or the most recent common ancestor we can have terrible classification:
Ex: All winged animals are a family! Should a butterfly be considered closely to related to a penguin?
We can even make arbitrary groups:
Ex: All green organisms are a family! Plants are just like frogs! Great!
So you throw all reason out the window and instead try and focus on a single trait.
Guess what? That is no worse than saying:
"Well they evolved from X, so they must be X".

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Ichimaru Gin :]

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Re: How birds fly and defeating the gravity
« Reply #164 on: May 13, 2018, 10:57:43 PM »
I admitted I made a mistake with the terminology.
Another win for FES!
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Ichimaru Gin :]

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Re: How birds fly and defeating the gravity
« Reply #165 on: May 13, 2018, 11:04:02 PM »
 :P But on a more serious note,

Our disagreements are more pedantic than anything Jack.
I said clades are defined by their common ancestry but the construction/organization is based on synapomorphies (how do we visually arrange things). Again these traits aren't defining persay but they largely influence how the tree of life has been mapped out.

I would consider birds Euteleostomi but not fish due to how vague fish can be. You can accuse me of being a pedant but I wouldn't argue really.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2018, 11:08:53 PM by Ichimaru Gin :] »
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rabinoz

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Re: How birds fly and defeating the gravity
« Reply #166 on: May 14, 2018, 03:07:36 AM »
Rab, we are in agreement more than not. This simply won't do  ;D
Not a big problem. There are more things that would work the same on a flat earth or the Globe than many realise.

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The globe

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Re: How birds fly and defeating the gravity
« Reply #167 on: May 18, 2018, 08:23:35 AM »
If Gravity exists How birds can fly and easily without power motors?????
Please don’t explain the birds biomechanics but explain it from the gravity point of view
I’m Waiting logic/scientific answers

Why do you need power motors? I'm confused. The bird's muscles acts as "power motor."

So a small muscles can defeat the Gravity? Really I’m wondering and try to understand or get answers

If you compare gravity with the electromagnetic force or the strong force, it is basically nothing, it is the weakest of the elementary forces of the universe, but it’s advantage is that it is really strong at big scales, like in the scale of our solar system or in planetary scale.
The poit that I want to get to is that in everyday scales gravity is not really powerful,  is strong enough to keep you stuck to the floor, but weak enough to make flying posible. Also we have to take in consideration that birds are adapted to flying, they have long wings that create enough lifting force to make them fly and powerful muscles to move that wings, they have evolved for millions of years so they are perfectly made for flight

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MicroBeta

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Re: How birds fly and defeating the gravity
« Reply #168 on: May 18, 2018, 12:18:38 PM »
I mean the rounded earth theory cant be exist without gravity!!!
and for me since I was 15 years old till now 35) away from if its flat or rounded (I never agree or believe in the gravity)

Its my thoughts (and I think no one can control my thoughts) except myself 😁👍
Have you tested gravity?  I have and I know it isn't something to believe or disbelieve.  It simply is.

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markjo

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Re: How birds fly and defeating the gravity
« Reply #169 on: May 18, 2018, 01:06:10 PM »
You can’t answer your question without taking into account biomechanics and physics. You wouldn’t dismiss the fact a rock has been thrown if explaining its parabolic arc into the air.

so I’ll answer with a question: why should birds have to fly if gravity doesn’t exist?

Because its their nature I think!
You're absolutely right, it's indeed their nature. Evolution has made these creatures able to overcome gravity by applying an equal or greater force to it by flapping their wings up & down.

You mean God not Evolution?😁

No, I mean evolution. If you choose to believe your god made all this ... then by all means, believe away.

Sure!
Then I wonder why a tree will not become a ship or anything else by evolution 😁

By the way thanks for your answers
You're welcome.

Nothing would prevent a tree from becoming a ship through evolution, if given enough time.
Do you mean something like this?
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