IF THE EARTH IS AT REST, CAN SHE STILL BE ROUND?

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rabinoz

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Re: IF THE EARTH IS AT REST, CAN SHE STILL BE ROUND?
« Reply #270 on: June 07, 2017, 01:49:58 AM »
<< more sidestepping proving inability to show where JackBlack's derivation is wrong >>
Still no idea of distance to sun, moon, planets and stars, or us that a state secret?[/center]

Still, it all makes wonderful reading if you like science fantasy.

Sandokhan, if you theories are so wonderful, why do you hide away in this little backwater?
Why not tell the world and become a billionaire selling all your free energy, and solving all our climate change problems?
Yes, you and all your great ideas are pure fantasy.
If I am wrong, prove it! Your ideas could change the world and I would be the first to congratulate you!
Get off your backside and do something instead of just spamming with pages and pages of your useless copy-pasta.
Of course you'll chicken out and claim that  ;D THE CONSPIRACY  ;D will you, or some other cop out!

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rabinoz

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Re: IF THE EARTH IS AT REST, CAN SHE STILL BE ROUND?
« Reply #271 on: June 07, 2017, 01:51:07 AM »
Just show us where jackblack's derivation is wrong.

color=red]<< more sidestepping proving inability to show where JackBlack's derivation is wrong >>[/color]

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JackBlack

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Re: IF THE EARTH IS AT REST, CAN SHE STILL BE ROUND?
« Reply #272 on: June 07, 2017, 03:26:21 AM »
jack, you really need to brush up on your parody skills.
No, I don't.
You need to brush up on your debate skills.


Do you understand the difference between 10,000 and 1/365?
Like so much of your other crap, this has nothing to do with the topic at hand.
So I'm not going to bother with that, or any thing else from your mountains of spam that has nothing to do with my derivation or an allegedly correct one.
Especially as I have already refuted the vast majority of it before and you just keep on ignoring what I am saying about it.

If you bring up something new, I might focus on it.


Now then, can you explain what these 2 opposite directions are and what the loop is for the lunar ranging experiment?
If not, then I will continue to dismiss it as NOT THE SAGNAC EFFECT.
Do you know what would happen if they did make it a Sagnac Effect interferometer? They would observe no shift, as instead of a loop, they have a straight line. They are simply bouncing the light off the moon, so the 2 "opposite" directions would be the same and there would be no fringe shift recorded.

The Sagnac effect also applies to TRANSLATIONAL/LINEAR/UNIFORM MOTION.
"For a circular path of radius R, the difference between the different time intervals can also be represented as Δt = 2vl/c^2, where v = ΩR is the speed of the circular motion and l = 2πR is the circumference of the circle.
The travel-time difference of two counterpropagating light beams in moving fiber is proportional to both the total length and the speed of the fiber, regardless of whether the motion is circular or uniform.
Yes, it can apply to specific cases of translational motion, which goes completely against your prior claim that it must be a circular ring.
And even then, it is not simply translational motion, it is a particular kind where the different parts are moving at different velocities.

That is not what we are discussing here.
But notice a key piece required? It still needs 2 counterpropogating pulses of light. So not the lunar ranging experiment.



SHOW WHAT IS WRONG WITH MY DERIVATION
Here are your own very words:
I know what my words are.

I also know what it shows. That is not showing what is wrong with the derivation.
You need to show what step contains invalid math, or what assumption that was made was wrong.

Until you do that, my derivation stands as correct.

Let us put your claim/conclusions/the most important part of your derivation to a second real test.
Fine, put it to a REAL test.
That means you get 2 counterpropogating beams going around a fixed loop and see what you get for Earth's orbit and for its rotation.

Here is how you calculate the orbital Sagnac, in agreement with the above referenced paper.
Earth's radius = 6357 km; r² = 40411449
Earth's orbital radius = 150,000,000 km r² = 22500000000000000
∆t = 4πR²ω/(c²-v²)
or
I use the linear velocity.
∆t = 4πRv/( c² - v² ), where v is the linear velocity.
Again, you are full of shit. The R here is not the orbital radius. It is the radius of the interferometer loop.
Try again.

Like I said before, if you wish to use this formula like that you need to derive it and show that it is the radius of the orbit.

You are yet to do that and so you CANNOT use the R for earth's orbit in it.

Your derivation is off by a factor of 3,650,000!
My derivation is correct.
You are unable to point out a single error with it.
Yet I am easily able to show the most important error with yours.

So no, it is your derivation that is massively off.

My calculation shows the correct figure.
No, it shows a massively incorrect figure. Try again.

But, A is based on R and according to mathpages, "circular loop of radius R".
Yes that is right. You have a circular loop (the interferometer, with 2 counter propogating light pulses) of radius R.
It is not an orbit of radius R.

Mathpages says you must use the center of rotation which is the sun.
No it doesn't.
It just uses that in its derivation as it is simple.


Just show us where jackblack's derivation is wrong.
HERE ARE TWO MORE DIRECT QUOTES WHICH MAKE A CERTAIN CLAIM, USING A CERTAIN FIGURE:
And thus:
dto/dtr=k*wo/k*wr=wo/wo=1/365.
Just like I said.
I also backed up this formula with my own derivation.
jack claims that the orbital Sagnac is 1/365 of the rotational Sagnac, and that, read carefully: "I also backed up this formula with my own derivation."
Using his own very words, jack is telling us that his derivation leads directly to this figure: 1/365.
And you claiming that figure is wrong is not showing the derivation is wrong.
Try again.

You need to show an assumption made in the derivation was wrong, or a math error in the derivation.

Until you do that, the derivation stands as correct.
Until you do that, and provide your own, you have NOTHING to stand upon.

CAN YOU SHOW WHERE MY DERIVATION IS WRONG?
CAN YOU PROVIDE YOUR OWN DERIVATION?

Until you do, you have nothing.

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sandokhan

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Re: IF THE EARTH IS AT REST, CAN SHE STILL BE ROUND?
« Reply #273 on: June 07, 2017, 03:29:13 AM »
jack has committed a monumental error in his derivation.

Of course, nothing else could have been expected of him.

He practically threw out the most basic requirement of the Sagnac effect.


What is the center of rotation for the orbit of the earth?

Here is the equation.

∆t = 4πRv / ( c² - v²) = 4Aω / ( c² - v²)

Where A = πR² and v = ωR

So, it is easy to calculate the orbital sagnac is more than 60 times that of the rotational.

But, A is based on R and according to mathpages, "circular loop of radius R".

http://www.mathpages.com/rr/s2-07/2-07.htm

Mathpages says you must use the center of rotation which is the sun.


Are there situations where the location of the center of rotation can be overlooked? Sure, but the rotational Sagnac and the orbital Sagnac are not among them.

In fact, the rotational Sagnac is calculated exactly as described above: using a circular loop.

But the same requirement is to be fulfilled in the case of the orbital Sagnac.



http://www.mathpages.com/rr/s2-07/2-07.htm

It is a loop and the earth is moving along the loop in its orbit around the sun.

If light travels at one speed c, then as the earth supposedly moves in it's revolution loop at 30k/s, while light moves c through space, the unit at the equator at noon would move with the earth' rotation and the earth's revolution cutting the distance the signal must travel to meet the unit.


"Let's say the unit is at the equator and the satellite is low on the horizon in the east at noon.

That means the unit is traveling at the orbital speed of the earth at 67,000 MPH.

The satellite emits at one speed c in space. While the light travels through space toward the unit at c, the unit moves with the earth at 67,000 MPH. The unit cuts the distance that the light must travel.

This is not being seen by any experiements nor GPS."

Yet, this same logic applies and works with the earth's supposed rotation.


jack does not understand this very basic fact of science, and has proceeded to construct his very own version of the Universe.

Let us see what happens when one disregards the basic facts of science.


jack's own words:

And thus:
dto/dtr=k*wo/k*wr=wo/wo=1/365.

Just like I said.
I also backed up this formula with my own derivation.


jack claims that the orbital Sagnac is 1/365 of the rotational Sagnac, and that, read carefully: "I also backed up this formula with my own derivation."

Using his own very words, jack is telling us that his derivation leads directly to this figure: 1/365.


Here is another quote now:

This is the correct calculation:
Δto/Δt r=[4Aiωo/( c² - vo²)] / [4Aiωr/( c² - vr²)]

Note, the area here has nothing to do with the area of Earth's orbit or radius of it or the radius of Earth. It is the area of the interferometer, as my derivation.

No where in any derivation did the area of Earth's orbit come into it.

So to continue:
Δto/Δt r=[4Aiωo/( c² - vo²)] / [4Aiωr/( c² - vr²)]
Obviously, ( c² - vo²) and ( c² - vr²) are very close to the same number, so let's lave them off.
=4Aiωo/ 4Aiωr
Then to simplify:
o/ ωr

And would you look at that? It ends up being just like what we claim.
You have ωo/ ωr.
As Earth rotates roughly 365 times for each orbit, ωr=365*ωo.
Thus we get:
Δto/Δt ro/ ωr
o/ (365*ωo)
=1/365

Just like we claim.



A very clear claim based on jack's derivation.

These are his own very words.


He claims that the derivation, as shown above, leads to the figure 1/365.


And he says that he bases his entire derivation on this: Note, the area here has nothing to do with the area of Earth's orbit or radius of it or the radius of Earth.

This hypothesis, in turn, jack claims leads to this conclusion:

=1/365

Just like we claim.



jack simply threw out the basic requirement that the orbital Sagnac is a circular loop, and reached the conclusion that the orbital Sagnac is 1/365 of the rotational Sagnac.


Let us put jack's claims to a real test.


Published by the BULLETIN OF THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY, one of the most prestigious journals in the world today.

C.C. Su, "A Local-ether model of propagation of electromagnetic wave," in Bull. Am. Phys. Soc., vol. 45, no. 1, p. 637, Mar. 2000 (Minneapolis, Minnesota).

http://www.ee.nthu.edu.tw/ccsu/



Anyway, the interplanetary Sagnac effect is due to
earth’s orbital motion around the sun as well as earth’s
rotation.

Based on the local-ether model, the propagation is entirely
independent of the earth’s orbital motion around
the sun or whatever and the velocity v for such an earthbound
experiment is referred to an ECI frame and hence
is due to earth’s rotation alone. In the original proposal,
the velocity v was supposed to incorporate earth’s orbital
motion around the sun. Thus, at least, v^2/c^2
=~ 10^-8. Then the amplitude of the phase-difference variation
could be as large as π/3, when the wavelength is
0.6 µm and the path length is 10 m. However, as the velocity
v is the linear velocity due to earth’s rotation alone,
the round-trip Sagnac effect is as small as v^2/c^2∼ 10^-12 which is merely 10^-4 times that due to the orbital motion.


The Sagnac effect is a FIRST ORDER effect in v/c.

Even in the round-trip nature of the Sagnac effect, as it was applied in the Michelson-Morley experiment, thus becoming a second order effect within that context, we can see that the ORBITAL SAGNAC IS 10,000 TIMES GREATER than the rotational Sagnac effect.


The author PROVED that the orbital Sagnac is 10,000 times greater than the rotational Sagnac, and the peer reviewers agree totally.


It was published in one of the most respected journals in the world.


Both claims cannot be true at the same time, right?


The derivation's conclusion is that the orbital Sagnac is 1/365 of the rotational Sagnac.

The mainstream papers published by these respected journals prove that the orbital Sagnac is 10,000 greater than the rotational Sagnac.



That is what is totally wrong with your derivation.


You are off by a factor of 3,650,000!


Why are you off by such a huge factor?

Because of the wrong application of the Sagnac formula.


∆t = 4πRv / ( c² - v²) = 4Aω / ( c² - v²)

Where A = πR² and v = ωR

But, A is based on R and according to mathpages, "circular loop of radius R".

http://www.mathpages.com/rr/s2-07/2-07.htm

Mathpages says you must use the center of rotation which is the sun.



Our friend jack brushed aside this requirement to impose his will on everybody else:

Note, the area here has nothing to do with the area of Earth's orbit or radius of it or the radius of Earth. (jack's own very words)

In this particular case, the orbital path of the Earth, YOU MUST USE THE CORRECT RADIUS IN ORDER TO ACHIEVE A CORRECT RESULT.


jack's dismissal of basic scientific facts led to this monumentally erroneous conclusions, using his own words:

=1/365

Just like we claim.



In the original proposal,
the velocity v was supposed to incorporate earth’s orbital
motion around the sun. Thus, at least, v^2/c^2
=~ 10^-8. Then the amplitude of the phase-difference variation
could be as large as π/3, when the wavelength is
0.6 µm and the path length is 10 m. However, as the velocity
v is the linear velocity due to earth’s rotation alone,
the round-trip Sagnac effect is as small as v^2/c^2∼ 10^-12 which is merely 10^-4 times that due to the orbital motion.



PUBLISHED BY THE BULLETIN OF THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY, one of the most respected journals in the world.


Dr. C.C. Su proves that the correct figure is at least 10,000.


jack's catastrophic interpretation of the Sagnac effect leads to a figure of 1/365.


Let us see by how much jack went wrong.


10,000/(1/365) = 3,650,000

A huge margin of error, just what we would expect of someone like jack: he practically disregarded the most basic requirement of the Sagnac effect applied to the orbital case.


There is nothing else to discuss here.


« Last Edit: June 07, 2017, 03:30:58 AM by sandokhan »

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JackBlack

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Re: IF THE EARTH IS AT REST, CAN SHE STILL BE ROUND?
« Reply #274 on: June 07, 2017, 04:24:58 AM »
jack has committed a monumental error in his derivation.
Of course, nothing else could have been expected of him.
He practically threw out the most basic requirement of the Sagnac effect.
You mean the same requirement you have been repeatedly throwing out?

Do I need to ask the question again?
Are you saying that in order to observe the orbital Sagnac effect we need a ring containing counterpropogating light pulses centred on the sun, i.e. with the sun in the middle of that ring?

Yes or no?

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Canadabear

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Re: IF THE EARTH IS AT REST, CAN SHE STILL BE ROUND?
« Reply #275 on: June 07, 2017, 04:26:50 AM »
There is nothing else to discuss here until the RE do one basic thing:

...

It is as simple as this.

Until then, there is nothing else to discuss here.

for that you are still do a lot of discussing,  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

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sandokhan

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Re: IF THE EARTH IS AT REST, CAN SHE STILL BE ROUND?
« Reply #276 on: June 07, 2017, 04:46:06 AM »
jack, you are acting like a spoiled brat.

What the frell is this?

Yes, it can apply to specific cases of translational motion, which goes completely against your prior claim that it must be a circular ring.
And even then, it is not simply translational motion, it is a particular kind where the different parts are moving at different velocities.

That is not what we are discussing here.
But notice a key piece required? It still needs 2 counterpropogating pulses of light. So not the lunar ranging experiment.


The Sagnac effect applies to both ROTATIONAL and TRANSLATIONAL MOTIONS.

This has always been my claim.

The lunar laser ranging has two pulses of light in a translational motion, instead of applying the effect on a rotating circle.

Here are the basic proofs that the Sagnac applies to translational motion as well:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1886058#msg1886058

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1848154#msg1848154


Therefore, the lunar laser ranging calculations cannot be done without taking into account BOTH the rotational and the orbital Sagnac:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=70614.msg1916734#msg1916734


Are you saying that in order to observe the orbital Sagnac effect we need a ring containing counterpropogating light pulses centred on the sun, i.e. with the sun in the middle of that ring?

It is not my saying.

Mainstream science says that for the PARTICULAR CASES OF THE ROTATIONAL AND OF THE ORBITAL SAGNAC, one needs to use a circular loop.

Please read.

Here is the equation.

∆t = 4πRv / ( c² - v²) = 4Aω / ( c² - v²)

Where A = πR² and v = ωR

So, it is easy to calculate the orbital sagnac is more than 60 times that of the rotational.

But, A is based on R and according to mathpages, "circular loop of radius R".

http://www.mathpages.com/rr/s2-07/2-07.htm

Mathpages says you must use the center of rotation which is the sun.

It is a loop and the earth is moving along the loop in its orbit around the sun.



Even in the official version of heliocentricity, the Earth's orbit around the Sun is assumed to be nearly circular.

The radius of the earth very nearly circular orbit around the sun is 1.50⋅10^11 m.

THE GPS SATELLITES' ORBIT AROUND THE EARTH IS ALSO NEARLY CIRCULAR, YET THE SAGNAC EFFECT IS CALCULATED PRECISELY USING THE KNOWN FORMULA:

4Aω/( c² - v²)

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/ato/service_units/techops/navservices/gnss/faq/gps/

The orbits are nearly circular.

http://www.navipedia.net/index.php/GPS_Space_Segment

Orbits are nearly circular.


Eccentricity of Earth's orbit around the Sun (official science information):

Earth's orbit has an eccentricity of 0.0167.

Eccentricity of GPS satellites orbit around the Earth:

Orbits are nearly circular, with eccentricity less than 0.02.

The orbital eccentricity of an astronomical object is a parameter that determines the amount by which its orbit around another body deviates from a perfect circle. A value of 0 is a circular orbit, values between 0 and 1 form an elliptical orbit.



More information on Dr. C.C. Su's paper on the orbital Sagnac effect.

His paper was also published by HARVARD UNIVERSITY:

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-bib_query?2001EPJC...21..701S

See the headline at the top:

NASA ADS Physics/Geophysics Abstract Service



So far, Dr. C.C. Su's papers, which include the correct orbital Sagnac calculations, based on a circular loop with the center of rotation located at the Sun, have been published by:

HARVARD UNIVERSITY

BULLETIN OF THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY

EUROPEAN PHYSICAL JOURNAL

EUROPHYSICS LETTERS JOURNAL

JOURNAL OF ELECTROMAGNETIC WAVES AND APPLICATIONS


Further information here:

http://www.ee.nthu.edu.tw/ccsu/



« Last Edit: June 07, 2017, 04:48:26 AM by sandokhan »

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JackBlack

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Re: IF THE EARTH IS AT REST, CAN SHE STILL BE ROUND?
« Reply #277 on: June 07, 2017, 04:54:37 AM »
jack, you are acting like a spoiled brat.
No, that would be you, continually refusing to show anything at all wrong with my derivation or provide your own and instead repeatedly attacking a conclusion with your ignorance and mountains of crap.

The lunar laser ranging has two pulses of light in a translational motion, instead of applying the effect on a rotating circle.
It has several pulses of light, but they are not counterpropogating.

Are you saying that in order to observe the orbital Sagnac effect we need a ring containing counterpropogating light pulses centred on the sun, i.e. with the sun in the middle of that ring?
It is not my saying.
I don't care if you want to pass the buck onto someone else.

Are you agreeing with it? Yes or no?

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cikljamas

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Re: IF THE EARTH IS AT REST, CAN SHE STILL BE ROUND?
« Reply #278 on: June 08, 2017, 12:00:39 PM »
So, since the earth (according to JackBlack) can't be round and motionless, should we conclude this thread with this assertion : "the earth is flat because there is no doubt that the earth is at rest"?
"I can't breathe" George Floyd RIP

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Canadabear

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Re: IF THE EARTH IS AT REST, CAN SHE STILL BE ROUND?
« Reply #279 on: June 08, 2017, 12:05:44 PM »
So, since the earth (according to JackBlack) can't be round and motionless, should we conclude this thread with this assertion : "the earth is flat because there is no doubt that the earth is at rest"?

you are wrong.
there is not one evidence that the earth is at "rest". there lots of are evidence that the earth is a spinning globe.

or how do you explain the Foucault Pendulum or the evidence that it is visible from outer space from each astronaut.

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Badxtoss

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Re: IF THE EARTH IS AT REST, CAN SHE STILL BE ROUND?
« Reply #280 on: June 08, 2017, 12:07:38 PM »
So, since the earth (according to JackBlack) can't be round and motionless, should we conclude this thread with this assertion : "the earth is flat because there is no doubt that the earth is at rest"?
Except it's not.  It's round and moving.  This has been proven innumerable times.
Earlier you asked for any peer reviewed paper to back up some point.  Can you produce such to back up your point?
You have been shown many times why your "evidence" is wrong, do you have anything else to support your claim?

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JackBlack

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Re: IF THE EARTH IS AT REST, CAN SHE STILL BE ROUND?
« Reply #281 on: June 08, 2017, 02:43:13 PM »
So, since the earth (according to JackBlack) can't be round and motionless, should we conclude this thread with this assertion : "the earth is flat because there is no doubt that the earth is at rest"?
Where did I ever indicate anything like that?
I have repeatedly indicated the exact opposite, that Earth is round and in motion.
I have refuted every single argument that I have seen you provide for a stationary or flat Earth.

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Badxtoss

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Re: IF THE EARTH IS AT REST, CAN SHE STILL BE ROUND?
« Reply #282 on: June 08, 2017, 03:31:53 PM »
So, since the earth (according to JackBlack) can't be round and motionless, should we conclude this thread with this assertion : "the earth is flat because there is no doubt that the earth is at rest"?
Where did I ever indicate anything like that?
I have repeatedly indicated the exact opposite, that Earth is round and in motion.
I have refuted every single argument that I have seen you provide for a stationary or flat Earth.
Not to speak for him but I think what he is saying is that you said, or maybe indicated that if the earth is round it cannot be motionless.  He believes he has proven the earth is motionless, though for the life of me I can't see how he is supposed to have proven that.  Any he thinks he has therefore since it is at rest it must be flat.
At least that's what I'm getting from it.

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JackBlack

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Re: IF THE EARTH IS AT REST, CAN SHE STILL BE ROUND?
« Reply #283 on: June 08, 2017, 03:46:12 PM »
So, since the earth (according to JackBlack) can't be round and motionless, should we conclude this thread with this assertion : "the earth is flat because there is no doubt that the earth is at rest"?
Where did I ever indicate anything like that?
I have repeatedly indicated the exact opposite, that Earth is round and in motion.
I have refuted every single argument that I have seen you provide for a stationary or flat Earth.
Not to speak for him but I think what he is saying is that you said, or maybe indicated that if the earth is round it cannot be motionless.  He believes he has proven the earth is motionless, though for the life of me I can't see how he is supposed to have proven that.  Any he thinks he has therefore since it is at rest it must be flat.
At least that's what I'm getting from it.

In that case it was Rab. He pointed out that if Earth is motionless, there is no significant force to distort it from a sphere and thus it would be round.

He believes he has "proven" it by magic inertia where the air magically strips things of their inertia instead of trying to have them move with the air and nonsense like his zig-zag BS.

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Badxtoss

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Re: IF THE EARTH IS AT REST, CAN SHE STILL BE ROUND?
« Reply #284 on: June 08, 2017, 03:52:43 PM »
So, since the earth (according to JackBlack) can't be round and motionless, should we conclude this thread with this assertion : "the earth is flat because there is no doubt that the earth is at rest"?
Where did I ever indicate anything like that?
I have repeatedly indicated the exact opposite, that Earth is round and in motion.
I have refuted every single argument that I have seen you provide for a stationary or flat Earth.
Not to speak for him but I think what he is saying is that you said, or maybe indicated that if the earth is round it cannot be motionless.  He believes he has proven the earth is motionless, though for the life of me I can't see how he is supposed to have proven that.  Any he thinks he has therefore since it is at rest it must be flat.
At least that's what I'm getting from it.

In that case it was Rab. He pointed out that if Earth is motionless, there is no significant force to distort it from a sphere and thus it would be round.

He believes he has "proven" it by magic inertia where the air magically strips things of their inertia instead of trying to have them move with the air and nonsense like his zig-zag BS.
I still don't get the zig zag thing.  Correct me if I'm wrong but couldn't you put a camera on a large ball, set up a light source, rotate the ball and get the exact result we can observe in the sky?

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JackBlack

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Re: IF THE EARTH IS AT REST, CAN SHE STILL BE ROUND?
« Reply #285 on: June 08, 2017, 04:01:17 PM »
I still don't get the zig zag thing.  Correct me if I'm wrong but couldn't you put a camera on a large ball, set up a light source, rotate the ball and get the exact result we can observe in the sky?
The zig-zag argument is pure BS which doesn't work at all like he is claiming.
It is completely incapable of showing motion or lack thereof as just like so many things, the observed motion is entirely a result of the relative motions (including rotations).

The zig-zag argument is effectively one of parallax, and it can be made into a real argument with a real purpose.
The problem is that it refutes the FE model.
It effectively is an argument which shows that things like the moon and the sun need to be really far away.

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MouseWalker

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Re: IF THE EARTH IS AT REST, CAN SHE STILL BE ROUND?
« Reply #286 on: June 08, 2017, 09:04:46 PM »
Sandokhan
Thank you for acknowledging the Apollo landings each time you reference
https://arxiv.org/vc/arxiv/papers/0912/0912.3934v1.pdf (I did read it did you?)
 and that we left reflectors on the moon, the earth rotates, and orbits the sun.
If this is not so why not?
The the universe has no obligation to makes sense to you.
The earth is a globe.

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MouseWalker

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Re: IF THE EARTH IS AT REST, CAN SHE STILL BE ROUND?
« Reply #287 on: June 10, 2017, 01:05:54 PM »
Sandokhan
Thank you for acknowledging the Apollo landings each time you reference
https://arxiv.org/vc/arxiv/papers/0912/0912.3934v1.pdf (I did read it did you?)
 and that we left reflectors on the moon, the earth rotates, and orbits the sun.
If this is not so why not?
well no response, can I declare a win for the round Earth?   
The the universe has no obligation to makes sense to you.
The earth is a globe.

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Mikey T.

  • 3546
  • +0/-1
Re: IF THE EARTH IS AT REST, CAN SHE STILL BE ROUND?
« Reply #288 on: June 10, 2017, 08:15:03 PM »
I still don't get the zig zag thing.  Correct me if I'm wrong but couldn't you put a camera on a large ball, set up a light source, rotate the ball and get the exact result we can observe in the sky?
The zig-zag argument is pure BS which doesn't work at all like he is claiming.
It is completely incapable of showing motion or lack thereof as just like so many things, the observed motion is entirely a result of the relative motions (including rotations).

The zig-zag argument is effectively one of parallax, and it can be made into a real argument with a real purpose.
The problem is that it refutes the FE model.
It effectively is an argument which shows that things like the moon and the sun need to be really far away.
play this at around 1:47.  It is stinky pajamas video on his description of ZIGZAG.  Notice how he thinks being off center of the rotational axis would cause the Sun to reverse direction.  I see now he is trying to scale it down a bit, but the premise is still the same, where he ignores the horizon of the Earth spinning and basically makes the space between the Earth and the Sun act as the point you would notice the apparent movement of the Sun against.  It is a basic failure to conceptualize and there have even been a few FE people out there that have argued against this ZIGZAG idea, showing how silly the concept is.  Some of them think it is so obviously a failure and more crap to muddy the water to discredit their FE ideas.  See there are some FE people out there that are not completely stupid. 


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rabinoz

  • 26528
  • +0/-0
  • Real Earth Believer
Re: IF THE EARTH IS AT REST, CAN SHE STILL BE ROUND?
« Reply #289 on: June 11, 2017, 01:43:51 AM »
I still don't get the zig zag thing.  Correct me if I'm wrong but couldn't you put a camera on a large ball, set up a light source, rotate the ball and get the exact result we can observe in the sky?
The zig-zag argument is pure BS which doesn't work at all like he is claiming.
It is completely incapable of showing motion or lack thereof as just like so many things, the observed motion is entirely a result of the relative motions (including rotations).

The zig-zag argument is effectively one of parallax, and it can be made into a real argument with a real purpose.
The problem is that it refutes the FE model.
It effectively is an argument which shows that things like the moon and the sun need to be really far away.
play this at around 1:47.  It is stinky pajamas video on his description of ZIGZAG.  Notice how he thinks being off center of the rotational axis would cause the Sun to reverse direction.  I see now he is trying to scale it down a bit, but the premise is still the same, where he ignores the horizon of the Earth spinning and basically makes the space between the Earth and the Sun act as the point you would notice the apparent movement of the Sun against.  It is a basic failure to conceptualize and there have even been a few FE people out there that have argued against this ZIGZAG idea, showing how silly the concept is.  Some of them think it is so obviously a failure and more crap to muddy the water to discredit their FE ideas.  See there are some FE people out there that are not completely stupid. 


It might be politically incorrect to even think this, but it seems that many flat earthers, esp stinky pajamas, are genetically deficient.
I am sure that they lack the  :P. 3d1pc :P gene, said (by me) to be involved in 3D perception.

Of course, he should be honest and put the sun 150,000,00 km away for the earth.
Then the change in angle would be about 0.002° and completely imperceptible.

But all of  cikljamas/odiupicku/Brian Mullins' videos end up being pure "straw man arguments".
I sometimes wonder if that's done intentionally or simply out of ignorance.
From his posts here I'm quite prepared to give him the benifit of the doubt,
and put it down to his appalling ignorance of both physics and the globe.