Poll

What is the truth about the 911 attack on the World Trade Center?

Hijacked Planes were flown into the two towers.  Resulting fires caused the collapse.
14 (60.9%)
The planes were CGI and it was controlled demolition
2 (8.7%)
Something other than planes were flown into the twin towers,  missiles drones etc.
2 (8.7%)
The planes were holographic projections from a special satellite, and it was a directed energy weapon
1 (4.3%)
Something else.
3 (13%)
Denspressure
1 (4.3%)

Total Members Voted: 23

Voting closed: March 06, 2017, 10:56:40 PM

911 What is the truth?

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Bom Tishop

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Re: 911 What is the truth?
« Reply #1320 on: February 27, 2017, 11:17:34 PM »
So rayzor...Can you tell me that everything you said about the flame and heat in the building is true since you harp on that?

Though if you don't want to get into this, I understand...
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Rayzor

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Re: 911 What is the truth?
« Reply #1321 on: February 27, 2017, 11:31:02 PM »
So rayzor...Can you tell me that everything you said about the flame and heat in the building is true since you harp on that?

Though if you don't want to get into this, I understand...

I'm happy to engage in intelligent discussion,  start with some basic research on typical high rise office fires.   You should scan the following paper.   

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.1014.8949&rep=rep1&type=pdf

The claim I made was that temperatures around 1000C were reported,  and temperatures over 600 C were reached over significant areas of the structure.

At 600 C  the steel is down to about  half it's strength,  and at 1000C it's down to about one tenth.


The jet fuel was responsible for the initial ignition,  but not the main fuel source for the subsequent fires,   you need to remember that smoke temperatures when you see thick turbulent black smoke can approach flame temperatures.   

Conclusion is that the steel structure that was stripped of it's fireproofing by the impact  was substantially weakened by the subsequent fires. 



« Last Edit: February 27, 2017, 11:33:30 PM by Rayzor »
Stop gilding the pickle, you demisexual aromantic homoflexible snowflake.

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disputeone

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Re: 911 What is the truth?
« Reply #1322 on: February 27, 2017, 11:59:39 PM »
Here's your smoking gun piece of evidence, geez, you can't handle Bhs, it's over, retire with dignity and honour.

Note that this hasn't been dubunked.

No, from one initial fail point our physics will not predict a plumb collapse at free-fall for a building anything like wtc7.
Claim, not fact.

Fact.

One initial fail point would lead to an unbalanced collapse (as you kindly demonstrated more accurately than I could) at a rate far slower than free-fall as the loads shifted and broke structures during the collapse.





Unless someone can show otherwise.

The only way our physics can replicate the collapse of building 7 is a controlled demolition, trying to fudge numbers without a controlled demolition situation ends up with the model looking like my simple equation would predict.



Debunk it, or retire with dignity and honour.
Why would that be inciting terrorism?  Lorddave was merely describing a type of shop we have here in the US, a bomb-gun shop.  A shop that sells bomb-guns.

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Rayzor

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Re: 911 What is the truth?
« Reply #1323 on: February 28, 2017, 12:08:06 AM »
Here's your smoking gun piece of evidence, geez, you can't handle Bhs, it's over, retire with dignity and honour.

Note that this hasn't been dubunked.
Debunk it, or retire with dignity and honour.

I've debunked it so many times it's getting embarrassing.   Once more. 

1.  The collapse of WTC7 was no surprise,  the FDNY knew early in the afternoon it was in danger of collapse,  did you even watch the video you keep posting?
2.  Your argument boils down to a false conclusion,  you conclude that because it looked like a controlled demolition,  therefore it must be a controlled demolition.  That's a logical fallacy

Your entire argument is premised on the assumption that ONLY a controlled demolition can explain free fall collapse.    That's  just not true.

Stop gilding the pickle, you demisexual aromantic homoflexible snowflake.

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disputeone

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Re: 911 What is the truth?
« Reply #1324 on: February 28, 2017, 12:10:43 AM »
>Our physics models can't simulate the collapse of wtc 7 with the official story.

>Our physics models can easily simulate the collapse of wtc 7 with a controlled demolition.


Should I believe physics? Or just take your word on everything?

Wait, don't answer that, I know.
Why would that be inciting terrorism?  Lorddave was merely describing a type of shop we have here in the US, a bomb-gun shop.  A shop that sells bomb-guns.

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disputeone

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Re: 911 What is the truth?
« Reply #1325 on: February 28, 2017, 12:24:12 AM »
Also you really have to apologize to Bhs.

Your behavior towards him was disgusting and dishonorable, you will feel better after I promise.

Once you've got past that you can apologize to me for saying you can explain how wtc 7 fell plumb at free fall.

You haven't even tried, seriously go join the circlejerk on clues, at least you might make at least one friend there.
Why would that be inciting terrorism?  Lorddave was merely describing a type of shop we have here in the US, a bomb-gun shop.  A shop that sells bomb-guns.

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Bom Tishop

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Re: 911 What is the truth?
« Reply #1326 on: February 28, 2017, 12:39:33 AM »
So rayzor...Can you tell me that everything you said about the flame and heat in the building is true since you harp on that?

Though if you don't want to get into this, I understand...

I'm happy to engage in intelligent discussion,  start with some basic research on typical high rise office fires.   You should scan the following paper.   

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.1014.8949&rep=rep1&type=pdf

The claim I made was that temperatures around 1000C were reported,  and temperatures over 600 C were reached over significant areas of the structure.

At 600 C  the steel is down to about  half it's strength,  and at 1000C it's down to about one tenth.


The jet fuel was responsible for the initial ignition,  but not the main fuel source for the subsequent fires,   you need to remember that smoke temperatures when you see thick turbulent black smoke can approach flame temperatures.   

Conclusion is that the steel structure that was stripped of it's fireproofing by the impact  was substantially weakened by the subsequent fires.

Well...I might agree with you if the metal got that hot and it was a wide spread event. Neither happened.

First, kerosene doesn't burn that hot in an open environment..Simple as that. It also has a high auto ignition temp as it should, it is made to protect fan jet engines from pre detonation. Compress it to 275 psi, insert oxygen stoichiometric mix of around 14.8;1 and then you might hit 1000c...Maybe...Though that is a bit hot, will raise internal temps a bit too much, so what do you do to drop them?? Add more fuel.

Anyways, enough of that, anything burning on top of kerosene is cool so that isn't to worry as well as what it is burning on. Middle of a non compressed kerosene flame is not hot enough to cause any worry..So is their any worry??? The tip...that can approach 700 in an uncompressed environment..So we have a very small area to worry about...However, there is a catch, its transfer ratio is not effective...Very low, especially with something of heavy density and mass.

I could keep rattling on, but Simple case, not worried about the jet fuel.. however, let's say it lit some carpet on fire, maybe some furniture. OK fine...So now we have a standard house fire, maybe 600c.. OK, so we have a few spots that hot..What now? Well we have the official report that says the heat protection was damaged..Well, we see how their word has been so far...

However, let's play their game...So we have some bare metal that is exposed..Uh oh?!? What happens now??? Well the fire isn't hot enough to ignite the steel as fuel...So if there is any direct fire on steel, it is because it is burning off either fuel or combustible material off it. That means the actual temp transfered to the steel is minimal (anyone ever put fuel on your arm and lit it on fire?? Not very hot to the arm...Crude example but quick)

So let's run some worst case scenarios...We have a few spots of bare metal being exposed to the hottest parts of a flame...Uh oh, well that isn't good. But wait!!! We have hope...One it is more than likely just a floor truss being exposed to this dangerous heat...However, even better, we have heat distribution and heat sharing by the entire framing of the structure. Previous posts I have described a few ways this is accomplished mechanically....So we have this distribution..

c × ρAΔx × u = cρAΔxu (x,t)

This is just one piece, whenever I figure out how to write more complex pieces here I will...

So what is the moral of the story?? Kerosene isn't hot enough, office furniture and carpet isn't hot enough..It wasn't the whole building only a few localized areas...The shared distribution would have absorbed the majority of the temp increase to only raise a minimal amount. (I have said before through modeling could only increase to 300 degrees Fahrenheit with a worst case scenario), even worst case if we could somehow get a support hot enough to fail, then it would only be localized. The 44th floor and below (which was where most of the mass was, beams a totally different boxed design, incased, more than twice as thick, cross braced etc etc...short story, a tank compared to the upper area) was still perfectly intact.

Moral of the story...Worst case adding in some luck and a bit of magic, worst you would have would be a localized collapse.


This was a mildly intoxicated post sponsored by Tito's...(sorry got bored with the "debate")
« Last Edit: February 28, 2017, 12:43:07 AM by Babyhighspeed »
Quote from: Bom Tishop
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Re: 911 What is the truth?
« Reply #1327 on: February 28, 2017, 12:45:32 AM »
Wtc7 fail because of denpressure!

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Bom Tishop

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Re: 911 What is the truth?
« Reply #1328 on: February 28, 2017, 12:46:56 AM »
Wtc7 fail because of denpressure!

About time!!! He said what we were all afraid to say!! Brave man
Quote from: Bom Tishop
LordDave is quite alright even for a bleeding heart liberal. Godspeed good sir

Re: 911 What is the truth?
« Reply #1329 on: February 28, 2017, 12:54:00 AM »
So rayzor...Can you tell me that everything you said about the flame and heat in the building is true since you harp on that?

Though if you don't want to get into this, I understand...

I'm happy to engage in intelligent discussion,  start with some basic research on typical high rise office fires.   You should scan the following paper.   

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.1014.8949&rep=rep1&type=pdf

The claim I made was that temperatures around 1000C were reported,  and temperatures over 600 C were reached over significant areas of the structure.

At 600 C  the steel is down to about  half it's strength,  and at 1000C it's down to about one tenth.


The jet fuel was responsible for the initial ignition,  but not the main fuel source for the subsequent fires,   you need to remember that smoke temperatures when you see thick turbulent black smoke can approach flame temperatures.   

Conclusion is that the steel structure that was stripped of it's fireproofing by the impact  was substantially weakened by the subsequent fires.

Well...I might agree with you if the metal got that hot and it was a wide spread event. Neither happened.

First, kerosene doesn't burn that hot in an open environment..Simple as that. It also has a high auto ignition temp as it should, it is made to protect fan jet engines from pre detonation. Compress it to 275 psi, insert oxygen stoichiometric mix of around 14.8;1 and then you might hit 1000c...Maybe...Though that is a bit hot, will raise internal temps a bit too much, so what do you do to drop them?? Add more fuel.

Anyways, enough of that, anything burning on top of kerosene is cool so that isn't to worry as well as what it is burning on. Middle of a non compressed kerosene flame is not hot enough to cause any worry..So is their any worry??? The tip...that can approach 700 in an uncompressed environment..So we have a very small area to worry about...However, there is a catch, its transfer ratio is not effective...Very low, especially with something of heavy density and mass.

I could keep rattling on, but Simple case, not worried about the jet fuel.. however, let's say it lit some carpet on fire, maybe some furniture. OK fine...So now we have a standard house fire, maybe 600c.. OK, so we have a few spots that hot..What now? Well we have the official report that says the heat protection was damaged..Well, we see how their word has been so far...

However, let's play their game...So we have some bare metal that is exposed..Uh oh?!? What happens now??? Well the fire isn't hot enough to ignite the steel as fuel...So if there is any direct fire on steel, it is because it is burning off either fuel or combustible material off it. That means the actual temp transfered to the steel is minimal (anyone ever put fuel on your arm and lit it on fire?? Not very hot to the arm...Crude example but quick)

So let's run some worst case scenarios...We have a few spots of bare metal being exposed to the hottest parts of a flame...Uh oh, well that isn't good. But wait!!! We have hope...One it is more than likely just a floor truss being exposed to this dangerous heat...However, even better, we have heat distribution and heat sharing by the entire framing of the structure. Previous posts I have described a few ways this is accomplished mechanically....So we have this distribution..

c × ρAΔx × u = cρAΔxu (x,t)

This is just one piece, whenever I figure out how to write more complex pieces here I will...

So what is the moral of the story?? Kerosene isn't hot enough, office furniture and carpet isn't hot enough..It wasn't the whole building only a few localized areas...The shared distribution would have absorbed the majority of the temp increase to only raise a minimal amount. (I have said before through modeling could only increase to 300 degrees Fahrenheit with a worst case scenario), even worst case if we could somehow get a support hot enough to fail, then it would only be localized. The 44th floor and below (which was where most of the mass was, beams a totally different boxed design, incased, more than twice as thick, cross braced etc etc...short story, a tank compared to the upper area) was still perfectly intact.

Moral of the story...Worst case adding in some luck and a bit of magic, worst you would have would be a localized collapse.


This was a mildly intoxicated post sponsored by Tito's...(sorry got bored with the "debate")

Where did you come up with these numbers? Source?

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Bom Tishop

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Re: 911 What is the truth?
« Reply #1330 on: February 28, 2017, 01:00:55 AM »
Where did you come up with these numbers? Source?

More specific please...Which numbers? Numbers/equations/info is in my head because of my line of work..However, if you are more specific, I can tell you where to find them for yourself.
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Rayzor

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Re: 911 What is the truth?
« Reply #1331 on: February 28, 2017, 01:01:10 AM »
So rayzor...Can you tell me that everything you said about the flame and heat in the building is true since you harp on that?

Though if you don't want to get into this, I understand...

I'm happy to engage in intelligent discussion,  start with some basic research on typical high rise office fires.   You should scan the following paper.   

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.1014.8949&rep=rep1&type=pdf

The claim I made was that temperatures around 1000C were reported,  and temperatures over 600 C were reached over significant areas of the structure.

At 600 C  the steel is down to about  half it's strength,  and at 1000C it's down to about one tenth.


The jet fuel was responsible for the initial ignition,  but not the main fuel source for the subsequent fires,   you need to remember that smoke temperatures when you see thick turbulent black smoke can approach flame temperatures.   

Conclusion is that the steel structure that was stripped of it's fireproofing by the impact  was substantially weakened by the subsequent fires.

Well...I might agree with you if the metal got that hot and it was a wide spread event. Neither happened.

First, kerosene doesn't burn that hot in an open environment..Simple as that. It also has a high auto ignition temp as it should, it is made to protect fan jet engines from pre detonation. Compress it to 275 psi, insert oxygen stoichiometric mix of around 14.8;1 and then you might hit 1000c...Maybe...Though that is a bit hot, will raise internal temps a bit too much, so what do you do to drop them?? Add more fuel.

Anyways, enough of that, anything burning on top of kerosene is cool so that isn't to worry as well as what it is burning on. Middle of a non compressed kerosene flame is not hot enough to cause any worry..So is their any worry??? The tip...that can approach 700 in an uncompressed environment..So we have a very small area to worry about...However, there is a catch, its transfer ratio is not effective...Very low, especially with something of heavy density and mass.

I could keep rattling on, but Simple case, not worried about the jet fuel.. however, let's say it lit some carpet on fire, maybe some furniture. OK fine...So now we have a standard house fire, maybe 600c.. OK, so we have a few spots that hot..What now? Well we have the official report that says the heat protection was damaged..Well, we see how their word has been so far...

However, let's play their game...So we have some bare metal that is exposed..Uh oh?!? What happens now??? Well the fire isn't hot enough to ignite the steel as fuel...So if there is any direct fire on steel, it is because it is burning off either fuel or combustible material off it. That means the actual temp transfered to the steel is minimal (anyone ever put fuel on your arm and lit it on fire?? Not very hot to the arm...Crude example but quick)

So let's run some worst case scenarios...We have a few spots of bare metal being exposed to the hottest parts of a flame...Uh oh, well that isn't good. But wait!!! We have hope...One it is more than likely just a floor truss being exposed to this dangerous heat...However, even better, we have heat distribution and heat sharing by the entire framing of the structure. Previous posts I have described a few ways this is accomplished mechanically....So we have this distribution..

c × ρAΔx × u = cρAΔxu (x,t)

This is just one piece, whenever I figure out how to write more complex pieces here I will...

So what is the moral of the story?? Kerosene isn't hot enough, office furniture and carpet isn't hot enough..It wasn't the whole building only a few localized areas...The shared distribution would have absorbed the majority of the temp increase to only raise a minimal amount. (I have said before through modeling could only increase to 300 degrees Fahrenheit with a worst case scenario), even worst case if we could somehow get a support hot enough to fail, then it would only be localized. The 44th floor and below (which was where most of the mass was, beams a totally different boxed design, incased, more than twice as thick, cross braced etc etc...short story, a tank compared to the upper area) was still perfectly intact.

Moral of the story...Worst case adding in some luck and a bit of magic, worst you would have would be a localized collapse.


This was a mildly intoxicated post sponsored by Tito's...(sorry got bored with the "debate")

I'm sure you didn't mean that steel burns,  so I'll give you yet another pass.

In that paper I cited the WTC fires were classed as travelling fires, and if you look at the graph in figure 6 you will see that the far field temperatures in travelling fires are a function of size ( as in area )  and time,  in less than 1 hour you can get far field temperatures in the range 600-900C   The temperature of burning jet fuel  is not a factor,  these temperatures assume normal office fuel loads.

The larger the area the faster the far field temperatures rise, in the case of a 600 sqm fire the far field temperature reaches 800C in about 1/2 an hour.   

Figure 5 gives the horizontal distribution of temperatures at ceiling height,  ( for a localized fire ) the peak temperature at ceiling height is over 900C and the zone 5 meters either side of the peak is over 600C.

You don't care to agree,  that's fine.  But the science is undeniable.  The fires were more than hot enough to weaken the steel structure,  that combined with the structural damage caused by the impact was enough to initiate collapse,  what is unexplained is the sequence of events subsequent to collapse initiation.   That's worth a new enquiry.





« Last Edit: February 28, 2017, 01:07:27 AM by Rayzor »
Stop gilding the pickle, you demisexual aromantic homoflexible snowflake.

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Rayzor

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Re: 911 What is the truth?
« Reply #1332 on: February 28, 2017, 01:01:56 AM »
Wtc7 fail because of denpressure!

Damn,  I will add that as an option to the poll.    LOL
Stop gilding the pickle, you demisexual aromantic homoflexible snowflake.

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disputeone

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Re: 911 What is the truth?
« Reply #1333 on: February 28, 2017, 01:20:58 AM »
I'm sure you didn't mean that steel burns,  so I'll give you yet another pass.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/A:1017523922778

Thought you gave up? Stay in the shallow end mate.
Why would that be inciting terrorism?  Lorddave was merely describing a type of shop we have here in the US, a bomb-gun shop.  A shop that sells bomb-guns.

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Rayzor

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Re: 911 What is the truth?
« Reply #1334 on: February 28, 2017, 01:28:12 AM »
I'm sure you didn't mean that steel burns,  so I'll give you yet another pass.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/A:1017523922778

Thought you gave up? Stay in the shallow end mate.

I can set fire to steel wool as well,  steel beams don't ignite, if it gets hot enough they melt.   

Another insult.   You just can't help yourself can you. 
Stop gilding the pickle, you demisexual aromantic homoflexible snowflake.

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Bom Tishop

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Re: 911 What is the truth?
« Reply #1335 on: February 28, 2017, 01:28:26 AM »

I'm sure you didn't mean that steel burns,  so I'll give you yet another pass.

In that paper I cited the WTC fires were classed as travelling fires, and if you look at the graph in figure 6 you will see that the far field temperatures in travelling fires are a function of size ( as in area )  and time,  in less than 1 hour you can get far field temperatures in the range 600-900C   The temperature of burning jet fuel  is not a factor,  these temperatures assume normal office fuel loads.

The larger the area the faster the far field temperatures rise, in the case of a 600 sqm fire the far field temperature reaches 800C in about 1/2 an hour.   

Figure 5 gives the horizontal distribution of temperatures at ceiling height,  ( for a localized fire ) the peak temperature at ceiling height is over 900C and the zone 5 meters either side of the peak is over 600C.

You don't care to agree,  that's fine.  But the science is undeniable.  The fires were more than hot enough to weaken the steel structure,  that combined with the structural damage caused by the impact was enough to initiate collapse,  what is unexplained is the sequence of events subsequent to collapse initiation.   That's worth a new enquiry.

Oh I don't need a pass, I thought it was obvious my sarcasm on steel being used as fuel. However, as I have stated before I am used to doing this type of debate with actual words I forget people can't hear a sarcastic tone.

I don't care to agree because it is incorrect. I just wanted to rule out jet fuel as the cause of collapse, as that is parroted in the official report more times than I care to recall. Kerosene is easy to rule out.

So then we look at available fuel in the building...What do we have? The areas that was hit was mostly vacant..Even the ceiling was stripped..So what do we have as fuel? Some carpet? Some floating ceiling tiles of gypsum board in a few areas? Doesn't rate that high in the combustible scale, just the paper. We can also see how empty the buildings were by the lack of actual official materials recovered after the collapse. Barely even registers as total mass...Nor does it add up to a fraction of what is should have.

So what could possibly cause melting steel we saw from the upper sections? What could cause the months of molton steel after the collapse...Fire fighters described as a "steel Foundry"...Nothing that was supposed to be there for certain.

Any heat generated by the small amount of available fuel would have been easily shared by the building framing...Plus, the only evidence that the heat shielding was damaged was from the official story, which have proven to be all lies, nor did they offer any evidence. With adding magic and some dumb luck, the worst you would have would be a localized collapse.

So the only logical conclusion is there was something there that shouldn't have been.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2017, 01:30:22 AM by Babyhighspeed »
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Rayzor

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Re: 911 What is the truth?
« Reply #1336 on: February 28, 2017, 01:33:46 AM »

I'm sure you didn't mean that steel burns,  so I'll give you yet another pass.

In that paper I cited the WTC fires were classed as travelling fires, and if you look at the graph in figure 6 you will see that the far field temperatures in travelling fires are a function of size ( as in area )  and time,  in less than 1 hour you can get far field temperatures in the range 600-900C   The temperature of burning jet fuel  is not a factor,  these temperatures assume normal office fuel loads.

The larger the area the faster the far field temperatures rise, in the case of a 600 sqm fire the far field temperature reaches 800C in about 1/2 an hour.   

Figure 5 gives the horizontal distribution of temperatures at ceiling height,  ( for a localized fire ) the peak temperature at ceiling height is over 900C and the zone 5 meters either side of the peak is over 600C.

You don't care to agree,  that's fine.  But the science is undeniable.  The fires were more than hot enough to weaken the steel structure,  that combined with the structural damage caused by the impact was enough to initiate collapse,  what is unexplained is the sequence of events subsequent to collapse initiation.   That's worth a new enquiry.

Oh I don't need a pass, I thought it was obvious my sarcasm on steel being used as fuel. However, as I have stated before I am used to doing this type of debate with actual words I forget people can't hear a sarcastic tone.

I don't care to agree because it is incorrect. I just wanted to rule out jet fuel as the cause of collapse, as that is parroted in the official report more times than I care to recall. Kerosene is easy to rule out.

So then we look at available fuel in the building...What do we have? The areas that was hit was mostly vacant..Even the ceiling was stripped..So what do we have as fuel? Some carpet? Some floating ceiling tiles of gypsum board in a few areas? Doesn't rate that high in the combustible scale, just the paper. We can also see how empty the buildings were by the lack of actual official materials recovered after the collapse. Barely even registers as total mass...Nor does it add up to what it should have.

So what could possibly cause melting steel we saw from the upper sections? What could cause the months of molton steel after the collapse...Fire fighters described as a "steel Foundry"...Nothing that was supposed to be there for certain.

Any heat generated by the small amount of available fuel would have been easily shared by the building framing...Plus, the only evidence that the heat shielding was damaged was from the official story, which have proven to be all lies, nor did they offer any evidence. With adding magic and some dumb luck, the worst you would have would be a localized collapse.

So the only logical conclusion is there was something there that shouldn't have been.

That's a pretty tenuous thread to hang an entire conspiracy from.    What was there that shouldn't have been?    Thermite?

I have looked at the evidence for thermite/nano thermite,  and it's not very convincing.


Stop gilding the pickle, you demisexual aromantic homoflexible snowflake.

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Bom Tishop

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Re: 911 What is the truth?
« Reply #1337 on: February 28, 2017, 01:45:48 AM »
That's a pretty tenuous thread to hang an entire conspiracy from.    What was there that shouldn't have been?    Thermite?

I have looked at the evidence for thermite/nano thermite,  and it's not very convincing.

I don't consider that a weak thread at all...It is very obvious impossibilities...So that brings to the question what was the cause? Nano thermite is a plausibility...I already explained to you how I would do it with a combo of nano thermite and c4 charges. I also stated, "that is what I know"...I also stated "there are other ways I am sure with tech i don't know about"..

I have never been sold on nano thermite... Though I know what was found in the dust from my own testing and many others. So I know there were explosive charges used somewhere.

There there is that big kicker of the months of burning, literally melting 119 fire certed steel...That is not easy and nothing in that building could have done that...Then to add for months afterwards? And these were not out of control fires, they tried to extinguish them...They just wouldn't go out.

Only thing I know that can continue generating heat hot enough like that of available known tech is a nuclear reaction. There is tritium in the dust?? What does it mean?

I don't know...I can speculate, but that doesn't matter. All I can do is destroy the official investigation and hope one day we can reach the right people and find the truth.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2017, 01:48:02 AM by Babyhighspeed »
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Rayzor

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Re: 911 What is the truth?
« Reply #1338 on: February 28, 2017, 01:54:39 AM »
That's a pretty tenuous thread to hang an entire conspiracy from.    What was there that shouldn't have been?    Thermite?

I have looked at the evidence for thermite/nano thermite,  and it's not very convincing.

I don't consider that a weak thread at all...It is very obvious impossibilities...So that brings to the question what was the cause? Nano thermite is a plausibility...I already explained to you how I would do it with a combo of nano thermite and c4 charges. I also stated, "that is what I know"...I also stated "there are other ways I am sure with tech i don't know about"..

I have never been sold on nano thermite... Though I know what was found in the dust from my own testing and many others. So I know there were explosive charges used somewhere.

There there is that big kicker of the months of burning, literally melting 119 fire certed steel...That is not easy and nothing in that building could have done that...Then to add for months afterwards? And these were not out of control fires, they tried to extinguish them...They just wouldn't go out.

Only thing I know that can continue generating heat hot enough like that of available known tech is a nuclear reaction. There is tritium in the dust?? What does it mean?

I don't know...I can speculate, but that doesn't matter. All I can do is destroy the official investigation and hope one day we can reach the right people and find the truth.

What happened to the potential energy of the structure?   Not all of it would have gone into pulverizing the structure,  a lot of that energy would have ended up as huge amounts of  heat.  Would it be enough to explain the molten steel that was seen in the rubble? 

Just an aside,  I've seen pictures of what was claimed to be nano-thermite,    iron oxide and other elements,  turned out on further investigation to be fragments of the red iron oxide paint used  on the steel as rust proofing,  and a layer of grey primer paint was still on the other side.   LOL.   

I'm inclined to leave it there and wait until a new enquiry does the modelling properly in an open and transparent manner. 

« Last Edit: February 28, 2017, 01:58:21 AM by Rayzor »
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Master_Evar

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Re: 911 What is the truth?
« Reply #1339 on: February 28, 2017, 02:05:59 AM »
So, time to post my calculations:

First, the load can either be perceived to be a point mass, OR have it's center of mass at the specified position. That's where the force will be concentrated in both cases.

Secondly, I'll give the load in mass, it's not what you'd officially do (just like I very much doubt you'd give a load in pressure, like BHS does) but since we're only talking about gravitational laod, and we'll assume a homogenous gravitational field, they'll be proportional anyways. Also, disputeone did it first so I just followed their lead.

So, the load of the floor on each bolt is obviously 25 kg.

Then we add the extra 100kg load. Let's ignore the load of the floor for now. Because the load is static and we'll assume the floor doesn't give or the bolts shear, the sum of the load on all bolts must be 100 kg.

But, the sum off all torques on all bolts must equal 0 kgm (kilogram meters, officially it is Nm, Newton meters), otherwise the floor or the bolts would twist. Torque is calculated around a pivot (can be static/rigid) and an axis by multiplying a force by it's distance to the force at a right angle from the axis you want to calculate the torque around.

As an example, let us take the south bolt, and let us work in one dimension at a time. We'll position ourselves so that we are aligned with the west and east bolt. From this position we can only deal with torque around the west-east axis, or basically torque that goes in a right angle from the west-east axis. The point load is 5+3 meters away from the south bolt, or 8 meters, since we are blind to distances that go west-east. That means that the torque on the south bolt around the west-east axis is 8m*100kg, or 800kgm. The west and east bolt are both 5 meters away, and from this position they will act like a single pivot. This single pivot will add a negative torque to the south bolt of 5*(-Loadwest-Loadeast). The north bolt is 10 meters away and will add a negative torque of 10*(-Loadnorth). The full torque around the west-east axis on the south bolt can be described as:
Torquesouth = 800kgm + 5*(-Loadwest-Loadeast) + 10*(-Loadnorth),
or 800kgm + 5*(-Loadwest-Loadeast) + 10*(-Loadnorth) = 0kgm,
since the torque on the south bolt must be 0 in all axis.

If we gather a few more relationships like these, we can compare them to each other in order to solve for all loads. However, there's a way I thought would be easier. Let's position ourselves so that the south and east bolt are aligned, and the north and west bolt are aligned. They are all evenly spaced along the circumference of a circle, so it is possible. From this northeast-southwest axis, the south and east bolts acts as one pivot and the north and west bolts act as another pivot. All cardinal directions are at a 45° angle to our axis, so we can calculate distances by adding their cardinal components (distance north + distance west - distance south - distance east, in this specific coordinate system) and multiplying with cos(45°).
Let's originate from the southeast pivot. The point mass is 3 meters north and 2 meters west away from from the center of the platform, or cos(45°)*5m. The southeast pivot is also cos(45°)*5m away from the center, but in the other direction. That means that the distance between the point mass and the pivot is 2*cos(45°)*5m, or cos(45°)*10m. That means that the torque is 100kg*cos(45°)*10m, or cos(45°)*1000kgm.
The north-west pivot is also cos(45°)*10m away from the south east pivot, and it's torque would be:
cos(45°)*10m*(-Loadnorth-Loadwest)

So the torque on the southeast pivot is:
Torquesoutheast pivot = cos(45°)*1000kgm + cos(45°)*10m*(-Loadnorth-Loadwest), and because the torque must equal 0:
cos(45°)*1000kgm + cos(45°)*10m*(-Loadnorth-Loadwest) = 0
Or:
cos(45°)*10m*(-Loadnorth-Loadwest) = -cos(45°)*1000kgm
10m*(-Loadnorth-Loadwest) = -1000kgm
(-Loadnorth-Loadwest) = -100kg.
Loadnorth+Loadwest = 100kg.

In order words, the north-west pivot takes all of the load of the 100kg load, because by dumb luck I managed to put it right on top of that pivot, or rather right in between the north and west bolt. That means that the south and east doesn't take any load from the 100kg weight, only the load of the floor.

Now it's easy, we just orient us at a right angle from the north-west axis, so that we have the north bolt, west bolt and the 100kg load in between. I'll calculate torque around the north bolt. Once again, I'll have to transform all directions with cos(45°) multiplied by (distance north - distance west - distance south + distance east).

The north bolt is cos(45°)*-5m away from the center (counting positive directions as towards the west bolt), the load is cos(45°)*(-3+2)m, or cos(45°)*-1m away from the center. The distance between the load and north pivot is therefore cos(45°)*5m-cos(45°)1m, or cos(45°)(5-1)m, or cos(45°)*4m.
The torque is cos(45°)*4m*100kg = cos(45°)*400kgm.

The west bolt is cos(45°)*5m away from the center, or cos(45°)*10m away from the north bolt. the negative torque is:
cos(45°)*10m*(-Loadwest)

The torque around north bolt is therefore:
Torquenorth bolt = cos(45°)*400kgm + cos(45°)*10m*(-Loadwest)
and because torque must be 0:
cos(45°)*400kgm + cos(45°)*10m*(-Loadwest) = 0
Which means:
cos(45°)*10m*(-Loadwest) = -cos(45°)*400kgm
10m*(-Loadwest) = -400kgm
(-Loadwest) = -40kg
Loadwest = 40kg

The west bolt takes 40 kg of the load of the 100kg mass. We know that the south and east doesn't take any of that load, and we know the sum of all loads must be 100kg. So the north bolt must take 60kg of load.

If we add in the 25 kg from the floor, the total loads become:
North: 85kg
East: 65kg
South: 25kg
East: 25kg

That means that even though we doubled the load on the floor, the load on the north bolt more than tripled and the load on the east bolt largely overshot double the load.

Had I placed the load even further northwest, the south and east bolt would experience less load as the north and east bolts acts as a pivot for a lever.

You can try inputting these values from any coordinate system, and it'll hold up. The sum of all torques will be 0, and the sum of all loads are obviously 100kg.

I don't know why BHS is trying to add variable that have nothing to do with this. Probably just as an excuse. As he says, this is pretty low-level for an engineer, but he still thought it's not solvable. Maybe it tells us something of his level?
« Last Edit: February 28, 2017, 02:09:54 AM by Master_Evar »
Math is the language of the universe.

The inability to explain something is not proof of something else.

We don't speak for reality - we only observe it. An observation can have any cause, but it is still no more than just an observation.

When in doubt; sources!

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Bom Tishop

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Re: 911 What is the truth?
« Reply #1340 on: February 28, 2017, 02:12:30 AM »
What happened to the potential energy of the structure?   Not all of it would have gone into pulverizing the structure,  a lot of that energy would have ended up as huge amounts of  heat.

Just an aside,  I've seen pictures of what was claimed to be nano-thermite,    iron oxide and other elements,  turned out on further investigation to be fragments of the red iron oxide paint used  on the steel as rust proofing,  and a layer of grey primer paint was still on the other side.   LOL.   

I'm inclined to leave it there and wait until a new enquiry does the modelling properly in an open and transparent manner.

It had to "vaporize" the structure...That is the only way the official story could get the towers to fall at that speed. They love the word vaporize... Interchangeable with magic.

However, let's look at the heat generated through friction and compression
At x = 0 T = T1

This is beyond simple and only tells a small percentage of the story..If I could figure out how to write more complex math on this site I will. This is why I avoided equations originally because the most important ones I don't know how to type them. I just got tired of dildos running their mouths so I have been attempting.

Anyways, long story short...Compression and heat generation would not have caused the temps needed to liquify 119 certed steel period...Much less for months with fire fighters trying to stop it.

However, we can leave this alone....No problem.

You direct the conversation
« Last Edit: February 28, 2017, 02:18:02 AM by Babyhighspeed »
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disputeone

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Re: 911 What is the truth?
« Reply #1341 on: February 28, 2017, 02:18:18 AM »
So, time to post my calculations:

First, the load can either be perceived to be a point mass, OR have it's center of mass at the specified position. That's where the force will be concentrated in both cases.

Secondly, I'll give the load in mass, it's not what you'd officially do (just like I very much doubt you'd give a load in pressure, like BHS does) but since we're only talking about gravitational laod, and we'll assume a homogenous gravitational field, they'll be proportional anyways. Also, disputeone did it first so I just followed their lead.

So, the load of the floor on each bolt is obviously 25 kg.

Then we add the extra 100kg load. Let's ignore the load of the floor for now. Because the load is static and we'll assume the floor doesn't give or the bolts shear, the sum of the load on all bolts must be 100 kg.

But, the sum off all torques on all bolts must equal 0 kgm (kilogram meters, officially it is Nm, Newton meters), otherwise the floor or the bolts would twist. Torque is calculated around a pivot (can be static/rigid) and an axis by multiplying a force by it's distance to the force at a right angle from the axis you want to calculate the torque around.

As an example, let us take the south bolt, and let us work in one dimension at a time. We'll position ourselves so that we are aligned with the west and east bolt. From this position we can only deal with torque around the west-east axis, or basically torque that goes in a right angle from the west-east axis. The point load is 5+3 meters away from the south bolt, or 8 meters, since we are blind to distances that go west-east. That means that the torque on the south bolt around the west-east axis is 8m*100kg, or 800kgm. The west and east bolt are both 5 meters away, and from this position they will act like a single pivot. This single pivot will add a negative torque to the south bolt of 5*(-Loadwest-Loadeast). The north bolt is 10 meters away and will add a negative torque of 10*(-Loadnorth). The full torque around the west-east axis on the south bolt can be described as:
Torquesouth = 800kgm + 5*(-Loadwest-Loadeast) + 10*(-Loadnorth),
or 800kgm + 5*(-Loadwest-Loadeast) + 10*(-Loadnorth) = 0kgm,
since the torque on the south bolt must be 0 in all axis.

If we gather a few more relationships like these, we can compare them to each other in order to solve for all loads. However, there's a way I thought would be easier. Let's position ourselves so that the south and east bolt are aligned, and the north and west bolt are aligned. They are all evenly spaced along the circumference of a circle, so it is possible. From this northeast-southwest axis, the south and east bolts acts as one pivot and the north and west bolts act as another pivot. All cardinal directions are at a 45° angle to our axis, so we can calculate distances by adding their cardinal components (distance north + distance west - distance south - distance east, in this specific coordinate system) and multiplying with cos(45°).
Let's originate from the southeast pivot. The point mass is 3 meters north and 2 meters west away from from the center of the platform, or cos(45°)*5m. The southeast pivot is also cos(45°)*5m away from the center, but in the other direction. That means that the distance between the point mass and the pivot is 2*cos(45°)*5m, or cos(45°)*10m. That means that the torque is 100kg*cos(45°)*10m, or cos(45°)*1000kgm.
The north-west pivot is also cos(45°)*10m away from the south east pivot, and it's torque would be:
cos(45°)*10m*(-Loadnorth-Loadwest)

So the torque on the southeast pivot is:
Torquesoutheast pivot = cos(45°)*1000kgm + cos(45°)*10m*(-Loadnorth-Loadwest), and because the torque must equal 0:
cos(45°)*1000kgm + cos(45°)*10m*(-Loadnorth-Loadwest) = 0
Or:
cos(45°)*10m*(-Loadnorth-Loadwest) = -cos(45°)*1000kgm
10m*(-Loadnorth-Loadwest) = -1000kgm
(-Loadnorth-Loadwest) = -100kg.
Loadnorth+Loadwest = 100kg.

In order words, the north-west pivot takes all of the load of the 100kg load, because by dumb luck I managed to put it right on top of that pivot, or rather right in between the north and west bolt. That means that the south and east doesn't take any load from the 100kg weight, only the load of the floor.

Now it's easy, we just orient us at a right angle from the north-west axis, so that we have the north bolt, west bolt and the 100kg load in between. I'll calculate torque around the north bolt. Once again, I'll have to transform all directions with cos(45°) multiplied by (distance north - distance west - distance south + distance east).

The north bolt is cos(45°)*-5m away from the center (counting positive directions as towards the west bolt), the load is cos(45°)*(-3+2)m, or cos(45°)*-1m away from the center. The distance between the load and north pivot is therefore cos(45°)*5m-cos(45°)1m, or cos(45°)(5-1)m, or cos(45°)*4m.
The torque is cos(45°)*4m*100kg = cos(45°)*400kgm.

The west bolt is cos(45°)*5m away from the center, or cos(45°)*10m away from the north bolt. the negative torque is:
cos(45°)*10m*(-Loadwest)

The torque around north bolt is therefore:
Torquenorth bolt = cos(45°)*400kgm + cos(45°)*10m*(-Loadwest)
and because torque must be 0:
cos(45°)*400kgm + cos(45°)*10m*(-Loadwest) = 0
Which means:
cos(45°)*10m*(-Loadwest) = -cos(45°)*400kgm
10m*(-Loadwest) = -400kgm
(-Loadwest) = -40kg
Loadwest = 40kg

The west bolt takes 40 kg of the load of the 100kg mass. We know that the south and east doesn't take any of that load, and we know the sum of all loads must be 100kg. So the north bolt must take 60kg of load.

If we add in the 25 kg from the floor, the total loads become:
North: 85kg
East: 65kg
South: 25kg
East: 25kg

That means that even though we doubled the load on the floor, the load on the north bolt more than tripled and the load on the east bolt largely overshot double the load.

Had I placed the load even further northwest, the south and east bolt would experience less load as the north and east bolts acts as a pivot for a lever.

You can try inputting these values from any coordinate system, and it'll hold up. The sum of all torques will be 0, and the sum of all loads are obviously 100kg.

I don't know why BHS is trying to add variable that have nothing to do with this. Probably just as an excuse. As he says, this is pretty low-level for an engineer, but he still thought it's not solvable. Maybe it tells us something of his level?

From a pure mathematical perspective you may be correct but I think like Bhs explained you aren't factoring in nearly enough to give a realistic prediction, it's not as simple as you seem to think.

As another thought experiment, two steel structures are bolted together, is the entire load taken by the bolt under Xnm of torque or is some of the load taken by the compressive force and friction of the steel plates?

I'm kicking myself for not thinking about this earlier.

It's not nearly as simple as you like to think.

As for the personal attacks.

Bhs is who he says he is, get over it. Many very intelligent people question 9/11 just like we have here and win debates, just like we have here.

Get over it.

I was thinking you were a decent guy till now Evar, lets not poison the well.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2017, 02:20:40 AM by disputeone »
Why would that be inciting terrorism?  Lorddave was merely describing a type of shop we have here in the US, a bomb-gun shop.  A shop that sells bomb-guns.

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Master_Evar

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Re: 911 What is the truth?
« Reply #1342 on: February 28, 2017, 02:20:44 AM »
BHS, I clearly stated that the floor was suspended ONLY by the four bolts, no friction or anything. I'm not claiming this is how it was in the WTC, I understand that friction would increase the strength, and other things and so on. But I expressed very clearly that the floor was ONLY suspended by four bolts. Stop making excuses and strawmen arguments.
Math is the language of the universe.

The inability to explain something is not proof of something else.

We don't speak for reality - we only observe it. An observation can have any cause, but it is still no more than just an observation.

When in doubt; sources!

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disputeone

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Re: 911 What is the truth?
« Reply #1343 on: February 28, 2017, 02:22:31 AM »
Well you showed the math is very simple.

The reality is nowhere near as simple.

What were you attempting except a disgusting attempt to discredit someone instead of debunk their arguments?

Honestly.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2017, 02:24:42 AM by disputeone »
Why would that be inciting terrorism?  Lorddave was merely describing a type of shop we have here in the US, a bomb-gun shop.  A shop that sells bomb-guns.

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Master_Evar

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Re: 911 What is the truth?
« Reply #1344 on: February 28, 2017, 02:28:48 AM »
From a pure mathematical perspective you may be correct but I think like Bhs explained you aren't factoring in nearly enough to give a realistic prediction, it's not as simple as you seem to think.
It is, as long as you don't bring in variables that have no place in the question at hand. Read my reply before this one, that was aimed towards BHS.

As another thought experiment, two steel structures are bolted together, is the entire load taken by the bolt under Xnm of torque or is some of the load taken by the compressive force and friction of the steel plates?
Again, read my response to BHS. This is just a strawman, as I clearly expressed to BHS that the floor was ONLY suspended by the bolts. And then , it depends on what is compressing. If the steel structures are only compressed because of the bolts, nothing changes, because the bolts have a load on them in order to compress the structures together, and the friction only equals that load. If the structures are pressed against each other by something else, the bolts will experience less load.

I'm kicking myself for not thinking about this earlier.

It's not nearly as simple as you like to think.
It's literally just as simple as I like to think: Really complicated when you get into actual buildings and loadsharing between hundreds of bolts, compression, friction, displacement etc. But I think I was pretty clear that had nothing to do with my question.

As for the personal attacks.

Bhs is who he says he is, get over it. Many very intelligent people question 9/11 just like we have here and win debates, just like we have here.

Get over it.

I was thinking you were a decent guy till now Evar, lets not poison the well.
I'm not saying he isn't who he is, but I know from experience he likes to overcomplicate or exaggerate in order to prove himself right. And he just proved it again.
Math is the language of the universe.

The inability to explain something is not proof of something else.

We don't speak for reality - we only observe it. An observation can have any cause, but it is still no more than just an observation.

When in doubt; sources!

*

Bom Tishop

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Re: 911 What is the truth?
« Reply #1345 on: February 28, 2017, 02:30:46 AM »
Master-evar I simply asked for more information on the design to get a real engineering answer (or real world). I never said it wasn't solvable as is, any moderately functional 7th grader can figure to divide 100 by 4. Just isn't reality or right (you would fail a test in school answering that shit)...As for your math of the "bonus question"...That is just wrong. No way around that. Sorry...

This is reality....Not whatever nonsense you are trying to sell...


The answer to the bonus question is:
North bolt: 85 kg of load.
West bolt: 65 kg of load.
South bolt: 25 kg of load.
East bolt: 25 kg of load.

It's really late here and I'm on the phone, so I'll post my calculations tomorrow.

I have been really trying to decide what to say to this... Still not sure. I suppose I will start by I am in shock you had even an ounce of nerve to criticize me for asking serious questions ANY real structural engineer would ask. To have the nerve to criticize me, implying I don't know the answer to the question because I pointed out your question was fundamentally flawed. After the nerve to do that, you post this...

An answer, which the first part is barely middle school (lol divide 100 by 4?? Right, since this is reality smdh), the second part is barely highschool (and wrong).

I am trying to be nice here as much as I humanly can with as much nonsense as you spoke...So I will just say shame on you.

I will let your divide by 4 simple arithmetic go for the moment. We shall go to your second answer. I am going to attempt to make this as short as possible so I will be only hitting a few points, there are a plethora more to address.

One... you addressed the problem completely incorrect..You are using a measurement of mass instead a measurement of weight. Any actual presentation would be presented in form such as psf...

Two..Your starting figure of 25 kg per bolt is impossible in the real world, thus why I asked you so many follow up questions. Please don't ever design a building!..But I am leaving that alone..As a simple arithmetic it works.

Three..Your calculations with the added load is not correct even using a hypothetical equation ignoring all other real world variables such examples include sheer, deflection, etc etc. Even bypassing all real world variables...You did not provide the dimensions of the point load. However, I do not need that to say the equation is wrong.

Let's just assume your load occupies one square meter in the position you stated on the floor. As I said, ignoring all real world variables, you are still violating UDL, UCL, and N-UDL distribution calculations (which you cannot ignore even in this hypothetical, non realistic equation) None of your load estimates are correct, especially the south and east bolts.

I could continue, there are 6 other things that come to mind off the top of my head, but would require way too much typing I am not in the mood for.

I will say this, despite all the reasons I have stated in this post and many before on why this question is bogus...I will state one more, and will actually get an actually moderately close answer (though not exact and would never fly in an actual presentation).

There is a reason I asked you every single question I did, which obviously you didn't understand so you yelled instead. We will use the structure size and frame size of the floor for the mating surfaces. We will hypothetically assume an 1 and 1/4 quarter inch wide for both, and 6 inch long for the floor mating surface. ( I am also ignoring reality just for this, as no flooring would ever pass code, or even pre design unless it has spandrels or channel plates, but again ignore reality for sake of argument)

So anyways, let's be Sammy safety and use .500 13 thread 325 bolts...So we torque them down, let's say they are the standard spray Telefon coated, that will give them about a .097 COF, so with that said they would torque to almost an even perdy 40 foot pounds.

So with all this said what would be the vertical load on the individual bolts? Almost nil...Why? Because friction of the mating surfaces with the almost 6000 pounds of clamping force per fastener (about 6400 pounds at the bolt bearing, in an eclipsed fashion, no way to figure that without more real world variables) will never be overcome by the available vertical force. So all the force on the bolt is lateral. (You start putting vertical force on bolt shanks, you have structural issues. The process I described is also how heat loads are shared rayzor)

C2 = 1.43(F/Fy)-0.93~ 0.643 for 1.05 < FjFy < 1.35

Just for kicks, if you really wanted to figure your load levels you would use..

Net=(1-0.9r+3.0rd/s) Fu<fu

Along with the equation I provided my last post about this
Find the bolt group centroid
Determine directional vectors for each bolt with distance Rn
Calculate direct shear load for both the weight and applied load(Fv)
Calculate Reaction Moment (M) at the bolt group centroid.
Calculate torsional shear force (Fm)
vector addition of direct and torsional shear for total shear load

Ra=distance from group centroid to bolt A
Rb=distance from group centroid to bolt B
Rc=follow the pattern....

Roughly something like this.

Fv = F/A ; Fm = M*Rn/(Ra^2+Rb^2+Rc^2....)
(though I apologize I don't know how to post the equations 100 percent correct here, but should be close enough)...Though this is still only 20 percent of the info you would need to build a real world answer.


Edit I am also leaving alone the fact the actual theoretical floor is impossible (at least with material I know)..Something that can span 31 feet diameter, 830 ish sq feet, only weight 220 pounds  yet support 220 pounds plus.....But that is another unimportant issue with an already bogus question.

I tried to do that as politely as possible...Nor did I even address half of the issues.

Yet this is how you act??

I don't know why BHS is trying to add variable that have nothing to do with this. Probably just as an excuse. As he says, this is pretty low-level for an engineer, but he still thought it's not solvable. Maybe it tells us something of his level?

Really gonna be a little bitch like that after getting politely schooled? Well now I drop the politeness, as well as any remaining respect lost.

Quit trying to pass off incorrect grade school horseshit as reality...

Now don't quit your day job..

Toodle-pip
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LordDave is quite alright even for a bleeding heart liberal. Godspeed good sir

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disputeone

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Re: 911 What is the truth?
« Reply #1346 on: February 28, 2017, 02:35:10 AM »
Really complicated when you get into actual buildings and loadsharing between hundreds of bolts, compression, friction, displacement etc. But I think I was pretty clear that had nothing to do with my question.

No, but to be fair we've been trying to keep it on topic for 40 pages and the topic is actual buildings.


Your thought experiment succeeded in showing your competence in maths but failed to discredit Bhs as you had hoped.


He told you that you couldn't calculate the real load and there weren't enough factors for a real prediction.

He was correct, what's the big deal with this?

Quote
Maybe it tells us something of his level?

Not being intentionally offensive but that's disgusting, have some self respect.
Why would that be inciting terrorism?  Lorddave was merely describing a type of shop we have here in the US, a bomb-gun shop.  A shop that sells bomb-guns.

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Rayzor

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Re: 911 What is the truth?
« Reply #1347 on: February 28, 2017, 02:35:51 AM »
[However, we can leave this alone....No problem.

You direct the conversation

I can see uncertainties and inconsistencies in the official story,  but nowhere near enough to conclude conspiracy,  not because conspiracy is an impossible conclusion,  it's just not the best or only explanation for the evidence,   also,  this event has had huge far reaching implications that are still playing out around the world,  as such,  you need to be certain far far beyond any reasonable doubt that it really is a conspiracy of such evil dimensions it's beyond comprehension.     

As I've repeatedly said,  I think there was a cover up at the highest levels to hide the failure of the intelligence community to connect the dots,   the Bush white house covered up their failure to act.

A new enquiry would put some of those ghosts to rest.

Stop gilding the pickle, you demisexual aromantic homoflexible snowflake.

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disputeone

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Re: 911 What is the truth?
« Reply #1348 on: February 28, 2017, 02:37:55 AM »
Rayzor, honest question. If they open up a new enquiry, what do you think will be done with the way building 7 defied physics given the official story and their models?
Why would that be inciting terrorism?  Lorddave was merely describing a type of shop we have here in the US, a bomb-gun shop.  A shop that sells bomb-guns.

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Master_Evar

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Re: 911 What is the truth?
« Reply #1349 on: February 28, 2017, 02:38:53 AM »
Well you showed the math is very simple.

The reality is nowhere near as simple.

What were you attempting except a disgusting attempt to discredit someone instead of debunk their arguments?

Honestly.
Disgusting attempt to discredit? I asked a very simple question bout a simple situation. He's the one who brought in unnecessary variables and refused to solve it with the information he had at hand.

Honestly, I'm surprised he didn't solve it. I mean that. I lost so much respect for him.

I also clearly expressed this is a thought experiment, not a super-realistic simulation. If it's not stated, we simply ignore it. I was only focused on load sharing, not actual structural integrity. I made it as simple as possible so that we wouldn't have to add in ridiculously complicated formulas that we just couldn't write out in this forum. BHS said it himself, it's would just be painful. That doesn't mean my thought experiment is totally unrealistic though: Going by it's premises, my answers shouldn't be off by more than a few percent. The biggest discrepancies would be how symmetric the floor and bolts are, and how accurately the 100kg mass can be placed and so on.

It's disgusting of you to state that this was all just to discredit him. He brought it on himself by messing up the interpretation of the thought experiment, nothing else.
Math is the language of the universe.

The inability to explain something is not proof of something else.

We don't speak for reality - we only observe it. An observation can have any cause, but it is still no more than just an observation.

When in doubt; sources!