iWitness - Air Pressure and Weight

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sceptimatic

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Re: iWitness - Air Pressure and Weight
« Reply #330 on: August 10, 2016, 02:12:09 AM »
I'm sure you have heard of a lattice fence? Strips of wood in a crisscrossing pattern? That lattice pattern describes how the particles are stacked together. It is a tightly  packed uniform formation. It is perfect for use in gas tanks because it is incredibly airtight.
So sort of a mesh like structure but on a very extreme tiny level. Is this right?
Not quite a mesh. Remember these materials are known for their ability to remain airtight/watertight. This is why they are used in SCUBA tanks.

It is called a lattice not because of any gaps that would be in a lattice fence. The term lattice here refers to the diagonal crisscross pattern the atoms form. This pattern is extremely rigid, uniform, and symmetrical.
So it's not solid. It appears solid to your eye and can hold in pressure.

Let me explain something to you, see if you understand on a basic level.
Get a glass and fill it with water. Place a beer mat over the top and tip it upside down.
The atmospheric pressure pushes the beer mat to the glass and no water leaks out even though the beer mat is essentially porous.

However, there's massive differences in porousity in many materials. It jjust depends on the make up.
Put a few dozen pin holes into the beer mat and tip it upside down. It doesn't leak...but why?
Surely it's really porous now?

See what I'm saying?

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rabinoz

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Re: iWitness - Air Pressure and Weight
« Reply #331 on: August 10, 2016, 04:16:36 AM »
I'm sure you have heard of a lattice fence? Strips of wood in a crisscrossing pattern? That lattice pattern describes how the particles are stacked together. It is a tightly  packed uniform formation. It is perfect for use in gas tanks because it is incredibly airtight.
So sort of a mesh like structure but on a very extreme tiny level. Is this right?
You did note this post:
Cathode Ray Tube worked in TV sets for almost a century before it was replaced by current thin screens.
Some of tubes actally worked for decades, especially if TV was watched just a few hours a day.
Vacuum in CRT is mandatory. The electron beam that draws picture on screen (front surface of CRT) must go freely inside.

For decades no gasses were entering such Tubes, keeping internal vacuum preserved.
So, glass is good barrier against atmosphere.

Whatever you say, as "SpJunk" noted, glass is certainly so near to impervious that hardly matters.
Metals (all solid ones that I know of) also are quite impervious, certainly enough to make "vacuum" and pressure chambers.

All your claims of weight being due to the atmosphere "penetrating" metals simply cannot be substantiated.

Especially as the density of the atmosphere is so small. A cubic metre of has a mass of only 1.225 kg, so what difference could absorbing a bit of air make anyway?

Then, as you yourself stated (when talking about water in the upside down glass) , air pressure "pushes" equally in all directions, so how can it provide a downward force?

From all I have seen in this and other threads, denpressure explains nothing. The more it is explained the more convoluted it gets.
Whatever you claim, the kinetic theory of gases explains the behaviour of gases much more consistently than your ideas.
So why throw away an explanation of gas behaviour the does work for one that clearly does not?

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SkepticMike

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Re: iWitness - Air Pressure and Weight
« Reply #332 on: August 10, 2016, 06:16:00 AM »
If aluminum is "porous or saturated or whatever" (very defined, scientific terminology btw)  how can it form a sealed tank?
Because the tank is not a porous tea bag. The atmosphere is already trapped within the metal.
The molecules trapped in the metal are much smaller than the atmospheric or water molecules that are up against the tank, so it stays air tight as we perceive it.

Not really, an aluminium tank is made of nearly pure aluminium or an alloy of aluminium, there's no trapped atmosphere in its crystalline metal structure, none, nada, zilch, nothing.
In simple terms and using a simple analogy, can you explain what a crystalline metal structure is, please.


I can do better than that, I can show you what it looks like.
Below is a high magnification image of 99.9998% pure aluminium, note there is no "atmosphere" or any gaps for "atmosphere" in the crystalline structure.


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SkepticMike

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Re: iWitness - Air Pressure and Weight
« Reply #333 on: August 10, 2016, 06:24:56 AM »
Here's a picture from an electron tunnelling microscope of the boundary layer of anodised aluminium, nope, still no atmosphere here down to the atomic particle level.

Turkish joke. A prisoner goes to the jail's library to borrow a book. The librarian says: "We don't have this book, but we have its author"

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sceptimatic

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Re: iWitness - Air Pressure and Weight
« Reply #334 on: August 10, 2016, 07:24:37 AM »
I'm sure you have heard of a lattice fence? Strips of wood in a crisscrossing pattern? That lattice pattern describes how the particles are stacked together. It is a tightly  packed uniform formation. It is perfect for use in gas tanks because it is incredibly airtight.
So sort of a mesh like structure but on a very extreme tiny level. Is this right?
You did note this post:
Cathode Ray Tube worked in TV sets for almost a century before it was replaced by current thin screens.
Some of tubes actally worked for decades, especially if TV was watched just a few hours a day.
Vacuum in CRT is mandatory. The electron beam that draws picture on screen (front surface of CRT) must go freely inside.

For decades no gasses were entering such Tubes, keeping internal vacuum preserved.
So, glass is good barrier against atmosphere.
Yes it is
Whatever you say, as "SpJunk" noted, glass is certainly so near to impervious that hardly matters.
Metals (all solid ones that I know of) also are quite impervious, certainly enough to make "vacuum" and pressure chambers.

All your claims of weight being due to the atmosphere "penetrating" metals simply cannot be substantiated.

Especially as the density of the atmosphere is so small. A cubic metre of has a mass of only 1.225 kg, so what difference could absorbing a bit of air make anyway?

Then, as you yourself stated (when talking about water in the upside down glass) , air pressure "pushes" equally in all directions, so how can it provide a downward force?

From all I have seen in this and other threads, denpressure explains nothing. The more it is explained the more convoluted it gets.
Whatever you claim, the kinetic theory of gases explains the behaviour of gases much more consistently than your ideas.
So why throw away an explanation of gas behaviour the does work for one that clearly does not?
You are miles away from understanding what;s going on. This is due to you constantly try to get kudos for digs off your forum friends.

Learn about denpressure and then come back, or just continue to to shout from a distance.

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sceptimatic

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Re: iWitness - Air Pressure and Weight
« Reply #335 on: August 10, 2016, 07:26:07 AM »
Here's a picture from an electron tunnelling microscope of the boundary layer of anodised aluminium, nope, still no atmosphere here down to the atomic particle level.


Looks extremely porous to me.

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sokarul

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Re: iWitness - Air Pressure and Weight
« Reply #336 on: August 10, 2016, 07:32:35 AM »
So now you think air "atoms" are smaller than metal "atoms"?
ANNIHILATOR OF  SHIFTER

It's no slur if it's fact.

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TheRealBillNye

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Re: iWitness - Air Pressure and Weight
« Reply #337 on: August 10, 2016, 08:11:34 AM »

Not quite a mesh. Remember these materials are known for their ability to remain airtight/watertight. This is why they are used in SCUBA tanks.

It is called a lattice not because of any gaps that would be in a lattice fence. The term lattice here refers to the diagonal crisscross pattern the atoms form. This pattern is extremely rigid, uniform, and symmetrical.
So it's not solid. It appears solid to your eye and can hold in pressure.

Where did I say this? In fact I said the opposite. Please read my post more carefully.

Let me explain something to you, see if you understand on a basic level.
Get a glass and fill it with water. Place a beer mat over the top and tip it upside down.
The atmospheric pressure pushes the beer mat to the glass and no water leaks out even though the beer mat is essentially porous.

However, there's massive differences in porousity in many materials. It jjust depends on the make up.
Put a few dozen pin holes into the beer mat and tip it upside down. It doesn't leak...but why?
Surely it's really porous now?

See what I'm saying?
Except it does spill eventually. That's kind of the point. A rigid stricture such as this will remain airtight for much longer than a beer mat with holes poked in. You need to work on sounding less condescending, especially when you have no idea what you're talking about.

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TheRealBillNye

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Re: iWitness - Air Pressure and Weight
« Reply #338 on: August 10, 2016, 08:17:29 AM »
Here's a picture from an electron tunnelling microscope of the boundary layer of anodised aluminium, nope, still no atmosphere here down to the atomic particle level.


Looks extremely porous to me.

B-But scepti! These images were taken with an electron microscope! Surely it must be faked, because people can't see atoms, r-right??

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sceptimatic

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Re: iWitness - Air Pressure and Weight
« Reply #339 on: August 10, 2016, 08:37:21 AM »
Here's a picture from an electron tunnelling microscope of the boundary layer of anodised aluminium, nope, still no atmosphere here down to the atomic particle level.


Looks extremely porous to me.

B-But scepti! These images were taken with an electron microscope! Surely it must be faked, because people can't see atoms, r-right??
Are you trying to tell me that those are atoms in that picture?

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Crouton

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Re: iWitness - Air Pressure and Weight
« Reply #340 on: August 10, 2016, 08:56:12 AM »
Probably a slightly different material but here's a closer look.
https://www.britannica.com/science/condensed-matter-physics/images-videos/A-high-resolution-electron-microscope-image-of-quasicrystalline-aluminum-manganese/122869

1nm is about the resolution you'd need to see individual atoms and molecules.  Check it out.  It's a pretty cool site.
http://htwins.net/scale2/
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sokarul

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Re: iWitness - Air Pressure and Weight
« Reply #341 on: August 10, 2016, 09:51:56 AM »
And yet Sceptictank thinks those atoms can expand to meters in length.
ANNIHILATOR OF  SHIFTER

It's no slur if it's fact.

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TheRealBillNye

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Re: iWitness - Air Pressure and Weight
« Reply #342 on: August 10, 2016, 10:04:21 AM »
Here's a picture from an electron tunnelling microscope of the boundary layer of anodised aluminium, nope, still no atmosphere here down to the atomic particle level.


Looks extremely porous to me.

B-But scepti! These images were taken with an electron microscope! Surely it must be faked, because people can't see atoms, r-right??
Are you trying to tell me that those are atoms in that picture?

 Do you not know what an electron microscope does?

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SkepticMike

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Re: iWitness - Air Pressure and Weight
« Reply #343 on: August 11, 2016, 02:57:49 PM »
Here's a picture from an electron tunnelling microscope of the boundary layer of anodised aluminium, nope, still no atmosphere here down to the atomic particle level.


Looks extremely porous to me.

B-But scepti! These images were taken with an electron microscope! Surely it must be faked, because people can't see atoms, r-right??
Are you trying to tell me that those are atoms in that picture?

Yes they are Scepti, we've been able to do this since 1981, the technology has become commonplace enough that people are building their own STMs (Scanning Tunnelling Microscope) as DIY projects.
Turkish joke. A prisoner goes to the jail's library to borrow a book. The librarian says: "We don't have this book, but we have its author"

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sceptimatic

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Re: iWitness - Air Pressure and Weight
« Reply #344 on: August 11, 2016, 03:00:42 PM »
Here's a picture from an electron tunnelling microscope of the boundary layer of anodised aluminium, nope, still no atmosphere here down to the atomic particle level.


Looks extremely porous to me.

B-But scepti! These images were taken with an electron microscope! Surely it must be faked, because people can't see atoms, r-right??
Are you trying to tell me that those are atoms in that picture?

Yes they are Scepti, we've been able to do this since 1981, the technology has become commonplace enough that people are building their own STMs (Scanning Tunnelling Microscope) as DIY projects.
So what is the mesh structure if those are atoms in it?

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Crouton

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Re: iWitness - Air Pressure and Weight
« Reply #345 on: August 11, 2016, 03:16:21 PM »
Here's a picture from an electron tunnelling microscope of the boundary layer of anodised aluminium, nope, still no atmosphere here down to the atomic particle level.


Looks extremely porous to me.

B-But scepti! These images were taken with an electron microscope! Surely it must be faked, because people can't see atoms, r-right??
Are you trying to tell me that those are atoms in that picture?

Yes they are Scepti, we've been able to do this since 1981, the technology has become commonplace enough that people are building their own STMs (Scanning Tunnelling Microscope) as DIY projects.
So what is the mesh structure if those are atoms in it?

Well it's a picture of the boundary so one side is anodized aluminum and the other is unoxidized aluminum.  I'm going to guess the neat honeycomb pattern is the unoxidized aluminum.

More importantly though:
The fact that you rant on and on without even thinking on it, means you have zero chance of understanding it.

Come back when you're a bit calmer and willing to try to understand.

Oh, I understood much better than you would like me to.

Go back to that video with scale in vacuum chamber.

Tell me how much the weight changed in reality.

How much that weight SHOULD change in your theory?

How big is the difference?

Dare you to do it.
How about you get a chamber and evacuate it all and follow my experiments to the letter. Are you game?
Do you have this experiment detailed yet?
Intelligentia et magnanimitas vincvnt violentiam et desperationem.
The truth behind NASA's budget

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SkepticMike

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Re: iWitness - Air Pressure and Weight
« Reply #346 on: August 11, 2016, 05:23:09 PM »
Here's a picture from an electron tunnelling microscope of the boundary layer of anodised aluminium, nope, still no atmosphere here down to the atomic particle level.


Looks extremely porous to me.

B-But scepti! These images were taken with an electron microscope! Surely it must be faked, because people can't see atoms, r-right??
Are you trying to tell me that those are atoms in that picture?

Yes they are Scepti, we've been able to do this since 1981, the technology has become commonplace enough that people are building their own STMs (Scanning Tunnelling Microscope) as DIY projects.
So what is the mesh structure if those are atoms in it?

The left side of the boundary is the structure pure aluminium takes at the atomic level, the right side is the structure Aluminium oxide (Al2O3) takes. The right side appears unordered, however it is a topographic view of a 3d structure made of bonded Aluminium and Oxygen atoms.

Below is a diagram illustrating the structure of Aluminium oxide.



To put this in context, anodizing aluminium is the process of creating aluminium parts in different colours. The colour is determined by the ratio of Aluminium oxide to Aluminium, different ratios will refract light at different frequencies.

 
Turkish joke. A prisoner goes to the jail's library to borrow a book. The librarian says: "We don't have this book, but we have its author"

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TheRealBillNye

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Re: iWitness - Air Pressure and Weight
« Reply #347 on: August 11, 2016, 05:32:54 PM »
Here's a picture from an electron tunnelling microscope of the boundary layer of anodised aluminium, nope, still no atmosphere here down to the atomic particle level.


Looks extremely porous to me.

B-But scepti! These images were taken with an electron microscope! Surely it must be faked, because people can't see atoms, r-right??
Are you trying to tell me that those are atoms in that picture?

Yes they are Scepti, we've been able to do this since 1981, the technology has become commonplace enough that people are building their own STMs (Scanning Tunnelling Microscope) as DIY projects.
So what is the mesh structure if those are atoms in it?

The left side of the boundary is the structure pure aluminium takes at the atomic level, the right side is the structure Aluminium oxide (Al2O3) takes. The right side appears unordered, however it is a topographic view of a 3d structure made of bonded Aluminium and Oxygen atoms.

Below is a diagram illustrating the structure of Aluminium oxide.



To put this in context, anodizing aluminium is the process of creating aluminium parts in different colours. The colour is determined by the ratio of Aluminium oxide to Aluminium, different ratios will refract light at different frequencies.

 

He won't understand unless you give him an analogy

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29silhouette

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Re: iWitness - Air Pressure and Weight
« Reply #348 on: August 11, 2016, 06:52:30 PM »
Scepti, just to be clear, are atoms a solid mass configured like "bubbles in a sink" with no empty space in between?  I seem to recall you stating as such.

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TheRealBillNye

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Re: iWitness - Air Pressure and Weight
« Reply #349 on: August 11, 2016, 06:57:32 PM »
Scepti, just to be clear, are atoms a solid mass configured like "bubbles in a sink" with no empty space in between?  I seem to recall you stating as such.

Yes. Gas particles physically grow in size in low pressure systems, and shrink under high pressure. They press against each other, leaving no empty space in between.

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SpJunk

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Re: iWitness - Air Pressure and Weight
« Reply #350 on: August 11, 2016, 07:33:45 PM »
So it's not solid. It appears solid to your eye and can hold in pressure.

Let me explain something to you, see if you understand on a basic level.
Get a glass and fill it with water. Place a beer mat over the top and tip it upside down.
The atmospheric pressure pushes the beer mat to the glass and no water leaks out even though the beer mat is essentially porous.

However, there's massive differences in porousity in many materials. It jjust depends on the make up.
Put a few dozen pin holes into the beer mat and tip it upside down. It doesn't leak...but why?
Surely it's really porous now?

See what I'm saying?

Ouch. We have a problem.
You clearly pointed out that atmospheric pressure works up as well.
It presses beer mat up, towards the glass.
That experiment showed another thing:

If we take one single DVD disc, with top and bottom surfaces equal,
and hold it horizontally by the edges, it will be under the same pressure from top and from bottom.
When we release it, it should stay there.
But it still falls down.
How?

Must try to get vacuum pump and see that thing with a vacuum in glass bottle that we talked about.
"If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts." - Albert Einstein

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Bullwinkle

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Re: iWitness - Air Pressure and Weight
« Reply #351 on: August 11, 2016, 08:42:04 PM »

To put this in context, anodizing aluminium is the process of creating aluminium parts in different colours. The colour is determined by the ratio of Aluminium oxide to Aluminium, different ratios will refract light at different frequencies.
 


Anodized aluminum is colored by dye.

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TheRealBillNye

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Re: iWitness - Air Pressure and Weight
« Reply #352 on: August 11, 2016, 09:43:16 PM »

To put this in context, anodizing aluminium is the process of creating aluminium parts in different colours. The colour is determined by the ratio of Aluminium oxide to Aluminium, different ratios will refract light at different frequencies.
 


Anodized aluminum is colored by dye.

Anodizing aluminum allows the material to be dyed. Not all anodized aluminum is dyed.

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Crouton

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Re: iWitness - Air Pressure and Weight
« Reply #353 on: August 11, 2016, 09:50:43 PM »

To put this in context, anodizing aluminium is the process of creating aluminium parts in different colours. The colour is determined by the ratio of Aluminium oxide to Aluminium, different ratios will refract light at different frequencies.
 


Anodized aluminum is colored by dye.

I used to think that too.  But then I saw this: Interesting stuff.
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Woody

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Re: iWitness - Air Pressure and Weight
« Reply #354 on: August 11, 2016, 09:58:26 PM »

To put this in context, anodizing aluminium is the process of creating aluminium parts in different colours. The colour is determined by the ratio of Aluminium oxide to Aluminium, different ratios will refract light at different frequencies.
 


Anodized aluminum is colored by dye.

I used to think that too.  But then I saw this: Interesting stuff.

Watch the video again.  Anodized aluminium is dyed.  It is titanium that is not.

To avoid making a long post I suggest searching how both are done.


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TheRealBillNye

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Re: iWitness - Air Pressure and Weight
« Reply #355 on: August 11, 2016, 10:08:07 PM »
Anodizing aluminum allows the material to be dyed. Not all anodized aluminum is dyed.

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Bullwinkle

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Re: iWitness - Air Pressure and Weight
« Reply #356 on: August 11, 2016, 10:13:39 PM »

To put this in context, anodizing aluminium is the process of creating aluminium parts in different colours. The colour is determined by the ratio of Aluminium oxide to Aluminium, different ratios will refract light at different frequencies.
 


Anodized aluminum is colored by dye.

I used to think that too.  But then I saw this: " class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">.  Interesting stuff.

Did you watch your video?

He said anodized aluminum is colored by dye.

He explained how dye infiltrates the pores of the anodized layer.
How the dye is locked in by a boiling water bath.

All you need to do is watch your video.

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Bullwinkle

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Re: iWitness - Air Pressure and Weight
« Reply #357 on: August 11, 2016, 10:18:51 PM »

To put this in context, anodizing aluminium is the process of creating aluminium parts in different colours. The colour is determined by the ratio of Aluminium oxide to Aluminium, different ratios will refract light at different frequencies.
 


Anodized aluminum is colored by dye.

Anodizing aluminum allows the material to be dyed. Not all anodized aluminum is dyed.


Anodized aluminum that is colored is colored by dye.   ;)


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Crouton

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Re: iWitness - Air Pressure and Weight
« Reply #358 on: August 11, 2016, 10:45:52 PM »

To put this in context, anodizing aluminium is the process of creating aluminium parts in different colours. The colour is determined by the ratio of Aluminium oxide to Aluminium, different ratios will refract light at different frequencies.
 


Anodized aluminum is colored by dye.

I used to think that too.  But then I saw this: " class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">.  Interesting stuff.

Did you watch your video?

He said anodized aluminum is colored by dye.

He explained how dye infiltrates the pores of the anodized layer.
How the dye is locked in by a boiling water bath.

All you need to do is watch your video.

Gah!  You got me.  That's what I get for watching youtube videos in the background when I work.
Intelligentia et magnanimitas vincvnt violentiam et desperationem.
The truth behind NASA's budget

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TheRealBillNye

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Re: iWitness - Air Pressure and Weight
« Reply #359 on: August 11, 2016, 11:29:43 PM »

To put this in context, anodizing aluminium is the process of creating aluminium parts in different colours. The colour is determined by the ratio of Aluminium oxide to Aluminium, different ratios will refract light at different frequencies.
 


Anodized aluminum is colored by dye.

Anodizing aluminum allows the material to be dyed. Not all anodized aluminum is dyed.


Anodized aluminum that is colored is colored by dye.   ;)

Agreed!